Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => BIG BANDIT BANTER => Topic started by: ldbandit76 on November 04, 2005, 11:24:55 AM
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I've got a 1997 Bandit 1200S. The alternator puts out about 400 W at 5000 RPM. I'd like more. I hear rumor that the second generation alternator puts out 550 W. That would be nice...
But, they are not outwardly identical, per the fische at Ron Ayers.
1st gen p/n: 31400-19C10
2nd gen p/n: 31400-03F40
They both have a 3-bolt attachment pattern, and both use the same output gear: 22730-27A05.
Has anyone done this swap, or compared the alternator housings to see if it might be possible?
Failing that, does anyone have a 2nd gen. alternator that they'd be willing to let me borrow (for a hefty deposit, but right of return) so I can compare?
Dave
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There's no change to the motor, so I see no reason why you can't. You might need the wiring plug from a 2G, I'm not sure. Never really paid any attention to the connectors on a 1G.
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I'm becoming convinced that the newer model of alternator for the Bandit will physically fit on my first-gen bike. However, the main fuse on my ride is 30 amps, wired between the alternator and battery. That's 420 watts maximum, at the usual 14 V operating range of the system, or less at 12 volts nominal. The new alternator puts out 550 watts.
Does this mean that I would be unable to use the extra capacity of the new alternator, or at least that I'd have to wire directly to it, instead of to the battery? Or is there another option?
Have any of you circumvented main fuse limitations?
Dave
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The main fuse on the newer Bandits is 30 amps, also. I don't see any reason you wouldn't be able to use the extra capacity of the alternator....it's just going to charge the battery a little faster, give you a little more oomph for aftermarket lights, etc.
You're not intending to run a microwave oven while you ride, are you? :wink:
Just a thought, maybe the reg/rect won't handle another 150 watts?
I can't seem to find any specs.
Maybe you can find a used, new style alternator on Ebay.
If this is a 'plug and play' mod, it would be a real plus for touring riders, and riders running heated stuff.
,
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The main fuse is between the alternator and battery. That means that all amperage at the battery terminals goes through it, so everything wired to the battery will be run through the main fuse. A 30 A fuse limits total system draw to 360 W, regardless of alternator capacity (unless I wire up a separate circuit directly to the alternator). That's slightly less than I'd like to draw with lights and heated gear.
The regulator/rectifier is built into the alternator. I would hope (and I presume here) that a high-capacity alternator would come equipped with a high-capacity R/R. But I could be wrong there, too.
No, no microwave. On board refrigerator. :wink:
Dave
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Hi
Looking at the wiring diagrams it looks to me as though what goes through the fuse is the excess current from the charging system. Ie, that which is left over after powering lights, ignition, etc.
All the best
Keith
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Hi
Looking at the wiring diagrams it looks to me as though what goes through the fuse is the excess current from the charging system. Ie, that which is left over after powering lights, ignition, etc.
Keith
I don't think circuits work like that. All the current has to come from somewhere and go back there; none gets "used up" en route. If the fuse is between the alternator and all your loads (and it is) then everything from the alternator has to go through the fuse.
From a more practical perspective, the fuse wouldn't work if that were the case. Nothing draws more power than a dead short. So if you have a short somewhere, and the fuse only handles "leftovers," then the fuse won't see the high current, and won't blow.
Now voltage is a different matter, but voltage doesn't blow fuses, and, since everything on a bike is in parallel (except for the fuses), they all see 12 V (or 14.5) all the time.
Dave
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Hi
There seem to be 2 wires from the alternator / regulator / rectifier. One is red and goes via the main fuse the the battery and also via the ignition switch to the electrical system. The other is an orange wire which joins the wire from the ignition switch and goes to feed all the smaller fuses for individual circuits.
As such the only current going to through the main fuse will be the excess current from the charging system in one direction, or the complete load from the battery in the other direction depending load / charging, etc.
All the best
Keith
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I'm pretty sure that second wire is the ground/negative wire from the alternator (I don't have my wiring diagram handy). That would make it the return path for all the current in the bike's electrical system (a circuit must go in a circle).
I'll double-check my wiring diagram tonight, but the easiest way to check would be to put a voltmeter on the red wire and the orange. If it reads anything but 0 (probably 12 V with the bike off, 14.5 with it on), then the orange wire is ground. If it's another positive supply, then it'll have the same voltage as the red wire, and the voltmeter will read 0. Or you could test the orange against ground, which would be 0 if it's ground, or 12/14.5 if it's a supply.
I don't think anything but the starter motor actually uses the frame for both ground and negative (all components are grounded to the frame, but have separate negative wires). That means there needs to be at least two wires from the alternator.
Dave
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House is warm, garage is cold so I am not playing with the multimeter in there tonight :lol:
There is a seperate earth shown on the wiring diagram for the alternator.
The orange and red wires are joined together directly by the on position on the ignition switch, so if one was the positive and the other the negative then it would be a direct short and the wiring would likely melt.
All the best
Keith
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Sounds intriguing then. I'll have to take a multimeter and my diagram into the garage this weekend, then.
One wonders what purpose the main fuse serves if there's a shortcut around it, though. Maybe "main fuse" is a misnomer, and it's only there for the starter motor.
Dave
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Hi
The starter motor is not powered through the fuse. The feed from the battery splits, partly going through the fuse and partly through the starter relay to the starter motor.
All the best
Keith
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I'll double-check my wiring diagram tonight, but the easiest way to check would be to put a voltmeter on the red wire and the orange. If it reads anything but 0 (probably 12 V with the bike off, 14.5 with it on), then the orange wire is ground.
Tried the multimeter and the voltage between the red and orange wires is ~0.15 volts (so basically nothing), with 13~14V between the arange and the earth on the battery, and the same between the red and the earth on the battery.
All the best
Keith
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Tried the multimeter and the voltage between the red and orange wires is ~0.15 volts (so basically nothing), with 13~14V between the arange and the earth on the battery, and the same between the red and the earth on the battery.
Keith
That settles it, then. Thanks for taking the effort to look into that.
The only remaining question is how much load I can safely put through the "main fuse" circuit, then. If the only things past the main fuse are the starter motor and battery and just about eveything else works off the orange wire, than there should be 30 amps worth of wiring capacity (if not alternator supply capactiy) on that side. I may not need to rewire anything at all.
I've got a line on an alternator, and my lights should show up this morning. I'll update as the project progresses.
Dave
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Hi
Be interesting to see how it works. Should provide plenty of power for things such as heated grips.
All the best
Keith
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Actually, the heated grips aren't a problem. I have HotGrips, Widder vest and sleeves, and have run a 100W headlight with no trouble.
But last night my Hella lights showed up. With those across the battery, and all my other goodies turned on, I got 14.0 V at the battery, down from 14.6 unloaded (and I didn't blow a fuse).
And when I plugged in an extra H4 to check my margin, voltage dropped to 12.5. So I'm right at the limit. If I go back to the 100 W headlight, with the Hellas, I'll be over.
For those that are curious, wattage totals are as follows:
Widder vest: 33W
Widder arm chaps: 20 W
Hotgrips: 30 W
Hella FF50 lights: 110 W
So that's 193 watts above the stock load (including high beam). That's the very edge of what the first-gen alternator will handle (at 2000 RPM).
Looks like I ought to do a write-up of the swap.
Dave
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My second-generation Bandit 600 alternator arrived today from the UK. It took a little over a month to get here, obviously...
After a test-fitting, it seems that the 2G alternator will indeed fit into the 1G case. There are, however, a couple issues.
First, the 600 and 1200 use different sized gears on the ends of the alternator shaft. Fortunately, the gear size (and part number) remains the same for the 1G and 2G versions of both models. Thus, a gear swap will be necessary for me. There's a cute little cush drive for the gear that makes swapping easy.
The bolts for the 2G model are shorter than the 1G bolts. I'll need to get new ones.
More troublesome will be getting the wiring to match. The 1G alternator has a cable coming out with a 2-prong spade plug on the end. The 2G alternator has a pait of spade terminals in a small opening in the case. Obviously, I'll need to put together my own cable. Does anyone know where I could find a plug that looks like this (the plug from the 1G alt)?
(http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9265/plug20jw.jpg)
Or a plug to fit these spades on the 2G alternator?
(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5243/2gspades3kb.jpg)
Also, the 2G alternator has a large screw terminal on the back side, here:
(http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/893/2galtterminal5qw.jpg)
Could someone with a 2G model tell me where that wire goes?
But, there project looks hopeful. Other that acquiring the various pieces, it should be pretty straightforward. More watts, here I come!
Dave
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The wire your arrow points to on my B12 is the main power lead. The two prong plug only uses one of the two spades - the one closest to the power cable terminal.
What you could do, is try to find the 2G connector from a salvage bike, or possibly even a wrecked car that has a NipponDenso alternator.
What I'd probably do though is just crimp a good terminal end on the little wire that fits the spade and be done with it.
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I checked out the wiring diagrams for the 2G Bandits. The screw-terminal wire seems to be on the ground/negative side (given that it's black on my new alternator). That would mean the red, positive wire would come from the spade terminal.
Does this jibe with what you see on your bike?
It looks like I'll just put a spade on a new lead, and graft the 1G plug onto the 2G alternator.
Dave
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I'll try to get a pic for ya when I get home.
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Here ya go...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/paulweit/Bandit%20Alley/DSCN2775.jpg)
Two wires. Big one does NOT go to ground - nor does the little one, both head straight into the harness.
Pretty sure the alt gets its ground thru the case.
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That is terrifically helpful, thank you. :thanks:
I had not expected either wire to be a frame ground, just to be on the negative side of the harness. Taking a closer look at the wiring diagram, I'm not even sure that's the case.
But, it does look like the 1G and 2G alternators occupy basically the same spot in the harness/wiring system, so I should be able to splice in the new one easily enough.
If not, then that big electrical fire on the horizon will be me.
I need to get that boot you have over the main power lead...
Dave
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I finished off the installation of the new alternator today.
I had to swap gears between my old and the new one, since the new alternator was from a B6. I grabbed the gears in a set of oak soft jaws on my vise, then took off the nut (which had been peened in place). The cush drive is locked to the shaft, so the swap was pretty straightforward.
(http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/4980/viseandcushdrive1bv.jpg)
The alternator drops right in place, except that I needed new bolts. I just got some at the hardware store, rather than paying shipping for the OEM ones.
(http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/8403/altinstalled1mi.jpg)
You'll note the single spade terminal, covered in heat-shrink tubing on top, and the ring terminal on the bottom. I spliced the old plug onto the other end of the wires, then covered the whole thing in loom. After this picture was taken, I wrapped the ring terminal in self-vulcanizing tape. Eventually I'll try to get a boot like the one on the starter motor, but the tape looks okay, and should hold up.
(http://img427.imageshack.us/img427/3986/wiring3py.jpg)
Here's the other end of the lead, with the old plug. Should you attempt to perform this swap, connect the ring terminal first, then this end of the lead. Otherwise, if the ring terminal touches the (grounded) case of the alternator, you'll blow your main fuse. You'll note the cover for my main fuse and starter relay is off. You'll also note everything is filthy. I gave the underseat area a good scrubbing when I was done.
I ran three mid-point tests to check to see how things were going. After installing the alternator, but before connecting any wires, I turned the engine with the rear wheel and watched to see if the rotor moved. I just wanted to make sure the gear meshed properly. I then connected a multimeter to the alternator, and spun the engine with the starter motor, with the gas shut off. I read a small, positive voltage, so that looked good. I then connected all the wires and fired the bike up to check voltage at the battery. It was between 14.5 and 14.6 for most of the rev range, so that looks good, too.
Then, since it was an unseasonably warm January day, I took a test drive. Everything seems to work fine.
Now I need to get my Hella lights installed, and maybe buy a few more items from Widder...
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most alternators that have this setup work like this. the smaller wire provides a 12 volt source for the alternator to actually charge. an alternator cannot make power with out first recieving a small amperage source voltage. the bigger one then is the main charge lead. hook the big one to the battery (or wherever it goes) and the smaller one to a switched 12 volt supply.
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Is everything still working well? I might to try this myself, but not until after the Cal24 in June. I don't want to play around with anything that might affect reliability before that...