Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Rocketjock on December 24, 2006, 11:02:58 AM
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I went not. Two reasons. When I talked to the mechanic/rider-racer at the shop when I was buying the bike, his view was that he'd never have it on a bike. Reason being that it's gonna screw up your hard breaking. I've never had ABS on a bike and the brakes have always worked well for me. Along with gearing down as an integral part of riding, leaving brake use to a minimum. Reason two of course was the grateful saving of a couple a thou. And compared to some of the crappers I've owned, my 06 B12 has great brakes. So, what's your opinion?
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Wow, there's a couple of thousand difference in the price there? Here the ABS model is only about $500 more than the standard.
I hear you on the braking issue, I'd be a little worried about that. I guess the biggest advantage of ABS is it can save your butt on wet or oily surfaces, even pro riders have testified to that. But I'm good on the wet anyway soo....
I have a '07 Bandit ordered for January, Either the standard or the ABS, whichever comes first. So if I end up with the ABS and don't like it, I hope there's a way to disable it.
Either way, it'll improve the resale value... if I ever sell it, that is. :motorsmile:
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my father has been on abs beemers for a few years...
1. ABS is superior to what you can do during braking...
2. ABS will save your butt in panic/emergency situations where you grab brakes to avoid an obstacle.
I cannot attest to the abs on the bandit, but on my fathers last bike a 95 1100rs, it was great, and I can only imagine that in the 10+ years it has been improved.
One other situation is during cold tire operation, you may grab more brake than the tires can handle, and the abs can prevent a wipeout...
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ABS for the mass production market of bikes targeted for the highway riding public (us) is a great safety improvement. The question of use in racing application is almost like asking why turn signals aren’t used in each track turn. These are two different worlds and to understand that you have to experience both separately (track time).
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ABS for the mass production market of bikes targeted for the highway riding public (us) is a great safety improvement. The question of use in racing application is almost like asking why turn signals aren’t used in each track turn. These are two different worlds and to understand that you have to experience both separately (track time).
Yeah, that's what I'm asking. I've got lots of track time, I used to road-race back in the 80's. I'm a bit older now, but I still like to stick it late in the corner now and then. I've never ridden an ABS bike, so I'm wondering if it's going to put a "damper" on my fun?
Has anyone ever raced an ABS bike, or ridden one aggressively on the road? I'm really curious to hear from other expert riders on this, as it may save me some bucks on my '07 Bandit purchase.
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I've had two wrecks in over 30 years of riding. BOTH were on wet road surfaces and BOTH could have been prevented by me having ABS. My next bike WILL have ABS, Bandit or not.
I know what you are saying about hard stops. I've heard that from a number of people but have not been able to discern a difference in my own experience. I've ridden friends bikes with ABS and they seem to work great on a full-on stop. At least on the street, I can't think of any reason NOT to have it. Unless of course you can't afford it.
When I talked to the mechanic/rider-racer at the shop when I was buying the bike, his view was that he'd never have it on a bike. Reason being that it's gonna screw up your hard breaking.
If he's never had it, how does he know that? :roll:
Dave
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Actually "ASC Automatic Stability Control" is what every street rider should shoot for in consideration of their next new purchase, not ABS. See AMA article below.
I have been riding since I was 13, starting off road enduro and leaned most of my bike handling and how to crash properly. By the time I was age 32 I had logged over 120,000 miles and had been hit once and avoided 2 but never hurt due mostly to my experience learned off road in handling, brake control and letting go of the bike at the right moment. For me crashes have always happened in very slow time where seconds are stretched out allowing me time to make decisions on how to set the bike up for the crash.
http://www.autoracingdaily.com/article.php?cid=14407
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Ok, good link, but now I'm even more confused! :roll:
The article said that the ASC system prevents the rear wheel from breaking loose under hard acceleration. This is not a good thing to an expert sport-rider, as there are times you want to break the rear wheel loose.
Another thing I'm confused about is this: Does the ABS system still allow you to operate the front and rear independently, or does using the rear brake pedal cause the front to work also, and vice-versa? Most sport-tiders don't normally use the rear brake much, and personally I tend to use my front almost exclusively, unless I'm on slippery ground.
And here's what I'm most concerned about: You're diving late into a curve, leaned over and hanging off at a high rate of speed, and you're trying to break as late as possible before the apex. So in the last nano-seconds, you're increasing your front brake pressure to reduce your speed just enough to make it, but the ABS feels "spongy" and it isn't slowing you fast enough. Next thing you know you're gone.
OR, you're into the apex and you feel your front end about to wash, so you give the rear brake a little touch to break the rear loose and make the bike slide evenly, but the ABS actuates the front, too, and there ya go.
If the ABS is going to inhibit these techniques, then I'll pass on it. I'd sure like to hear from anybody who's tried this stuff with an ABS bike that has the same type of system as the Bandit.
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ABS can work on each wheel with independent/separate control or mixed, depends on the manufacturer and/or model. The old B12 ABS was separate... I think the new one is still that way, but I'm not positive.
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:beers: :
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But to compare a track day ride to riding on the street is just plain foolish and anyone riding a track pace on the street is only looking for a place to plant it :wink:
Yeah... he's "full of crap"
Sharing your experience with ABS here is appreciated.
But you just couldn't help your little "dig" at me there, could ya? And your little "he's full of crap" line?
For your information, I live in a very unpopulated, rural area with a lot of great twistes. You can ride for miles without seeing another vehicle. If I choose to cook it once in awhile then it's my business.
Look, Ranger, I joined this board because I'm a new Bandit-owner, and I'd like to share information and experiences with other Bandit riders.
But since I posted something you took offense at awhile back, it seems that you've taken it upon yourself to follow me around everywhere I post with your crappy little comments.
I don't know what your problem is, but here's some advice:
Get over it, and get off my ass.
There's one on every board... :roll:
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:beers:
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TIMEOUT!!! Comeon, guys. Nobody was attacking anybody here. Let's just settle down and get back to the question. My mech has certainly ridden both versions and that's just his opinion. I kinda agreed with it and saved several hun (maybe not a coupla thou) going without. And I still stick to the fact that most of my braking is done by downshifting anyway. In emerg stops, ABS might just save my bacon. But, if I'm upright and sliding hard into some guy in front of me, I might just want to be lockin up both wheels on good pavement to try and stop. Again, just my opinion.
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Don't mention it, hopefully someone will gain from my experience.
I don't need any information; My comment was more towards the mechanic/racer types that claim to know it all but likely have never tried something....If you took it personal, then thats your problem and you really oughta get thicker skin.
Right, so you call up some tuner, well known in his field for years, asking questions about products or what he thinks, he blows you off the phone (I could tell you why but I won't bother) and you proceed to badmouth him on this site, in a product review forum (where riders actually purchase things), when in fact you're not even a customer of his. Did you purchased any of his products that you so freely blasted? Is there something you wanted to share or are you just too damn cheap and find it easier to assassinate someones character, safely behind your keyboard?
Is that something that this board would benefit from?
Sorry bucko, but thats purely your opinion and doesn't hold much water with me or others.
Thanks, now that you've identified yourself it should be no problem avoiding you :clap:
God, what a freakin' jackass.
Sorry, Rocketjock, I was trying to address the topic you were good enough to start here, because I'm really interested in the ABS question.
I've notified the Admin of this jerk, hopefully something will be done.
I guess it's gonna be the luck of the draw as far as the ABS goes for me, because I have my deposit down for the first '07 Bandit to arrive at the dealers, whether it's ABS or standard. If it's the ABS, I'll be posting my impressions of it as soon as I get a chance to ride it. If not, I'm sure it won't be long before somebody here will have some input.
Again, sorry about this asshole, my mistake for not ignoring him in the first place. :duh:
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Hate to use symbolic phrases here but you need to take a chill pill and cut back on the caffeine. No one should be able to push your panic button that easily. I usually wont admit when someone else is right for the wrong reason, but you made a believer out of me, you do need all time ABS.
:boohoo:
Don't mention it, hopefully someone will gain from my experience.
I don't need any information; My comment was more towards the mechanic/racer types that claim to know it all but likely have never tried something....If you took it personal, then thats your problem and you really oughta get thicker skin.
Right, so you call up some tuner, well known in his field for years, asking questions about products or what he thinks, he blows you off the phone (I could tell you why but I won't bother) and you proceed to badmouth him on this site, in a product review forum (where riders actually purchase things), when in fact you're not even a customer of his. Did you purchased any of his products that you so freely blasted? Is there something you wanted to share or are you just too damn cheap and find it easier to assassinate someones character, safely behind your keyboard?
Is that something that this board would benefit from?
Sorry bucko, but thats purely your opinion and doesn't hold much water with me or others.
Thanks, now that you've identified yourself it should be no problem avoiding you :clap:
God, what a freakin' jackass.
Sorry, Rocketjock, I was trying to address the topic you were good enough to start here, because I'm really interested in the ABS question.
I've notified the Admin of this jerk, hopefully something will be done.
I guess it's gonna be the luck of the draw as far as the ABS goes for me, because I have my deposit down for the first '07 Bandit to arrive at the dealers, whether it's ABS or standard. If it's the ABS, I'll be posting my impressions of it as soon as I get a chance to ride it. If not, I'm sure it won't be long before somebody here will have some input.
Again, sorry about this asshole, my mistake for not ignoring him in the first place. :duh:
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I have ABS on my '06 B12. The front and rear brakes are not linked and can be operated independently. I have practiced several emergency braking tests on dry pavement and only activated the ABS on the rear brake. The ABS does not activate during normal driving - only under very aggressive braking. In my opinion the $500 for ABS is well worth the expense. :wink:
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I have ABS on my '06 B12. The front and rear brakes are not linked and can be operated independently. I have practiced several emergency braking tests on dry pavement and only activated the ABS on the rear brake. The ABS does not activate during normal driving - only under very aggressive braking. In my opinion the $500 for ABS is well worth the expense. :wink:
Now that's the kind of information we need here. Good post, Fossil. :thanks:
It's good to know the front and rear are independent. It might be different on the '07, but I don't know why they would change it...
I guess "aggressive braking" is a relative thing, aye? With ABS you could still do a "stoppy" front wheel stand because it de-activates under 6 mph? I'm still wondering if it is possible to break a tire loose if you tried hard enough, and if the ABS can be disabled somehow.
Think of it like this, what if you took the bike to a Track Day for a weekend. Would you be able to disable the ABS temporarily? I heard somewhere you might be able to do it by taking a fuse out. Anybody?
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zenman my answer to your earlier question, I'm certainly no expert rider (I have great "feel" in a car but not riding) but if I concentrate I can stop very quickly with perfect braking on the rear, and the front howling on the verge of lock-up 'til I'm stopped. And that being somewhat dependent on a clean road surface. When some lunatic runs a red across you, the situation has changed a little, to say the least. Riding on the road is completely different to the track I mean if you're doing say even half as many k's (sorry miles!) on the track as the road then there are not very many worse choices of bike, as capable as our girl is.
For me on the rear at least it's a no brainer. In an emergency what percentage of riders can optimally brake the rear? It's practically impossible I believe.
I've only ridden a BMW with ABS, certainly not a "push-on" bike, but even then if one was to regularly invoke abs on the road I would argue that they're using up some margins. And as I said okay if you're trying to lower your lap times, life's a trade-off. But the fact is that in those horrible panic braking situations (I experienced one just yesterday on a greasy intersection) I myself only have enough skill to unlock the front if it happens, braking twice does no favours to stopping distance.
Being able to grab a handful 'til you're out of danger is a wonderful safety net to have. I think it's indespensible in road cars and the only difference is a car won't put you on your ear if you lock up for more than a moment.
WOW, long but let me just say- the more common it becomes on bikes the better it will work to where it's like a Porsche GT3, say - even race drivers can apply maximum braking without the ABS kicking in, so well adjusted it is.
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Lawyers would have a field day I'm sure, but the thought of adjustable ABS is rather intriguing. Not sure how you would find the proper point of adjustment for your liking without causing a hazard but I could see a need for adjustment for different riding situations: road, track, unpaved, for example. Or maybe it just boils down to loss of traction = loss of braking power and no matter what your riding style is, a properly designed ABS works efficiently in all conditions. (Except for no/low traction situations I described above.)
I think I'll leave it up to the engineers for now. :duh:
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All good points and excellent advice. It seems the general consensus is that ABS will save your butt in emergency braking situations regardless of skill level, especially in wet and slippery surfaces. That's a good thing for sure. Straight-line panic stops. We got that covered.
I'm leaning more towards the ABS with every post I read n here. Many thanks to Rocketjock for starting this thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one getting a lot out of it.
Only one point remains, and that's how does it feel in the corners? When the bike is leaned over under hard braking? That's the question that gives me a bit of hesitation about the ABS, and one that hasn't been addressed much here. Has anyone had their ABS kicking in in late-braking situations in the curves? What's it feel like? Any differences?
Sorry, I guess I'm just getting a little nuts waiting on the bike to come in... :roll: should be here this month. Can't wait! :motorsmile:
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Only one point remains, and that's how does it feel in the corners? When the bike is leaned over under hard braking? That's the question that gives me a bit of hesitation about the ABS, and one that hasn't been addressed much here. Has anyone had their ABS kicking in in late-braking situations in the curves? What's it feel like? Any differences?
You mean while you're heeled over? Gee, if you're going to be braking that hard to the apex I'd wanna be exactly sure of my own ability to feel the front's grip.
I mean, lets assume you're in a proper turn (as in countersteering) so speed is like 50 km/h minimum. Unless it's a really gentle curve, not even a corner, you will be already using most of your traction. If you brake hard enough to activate the ABS I'm pretty sure you will immediately be trying to keep the bike up. Again my only use of it is on a big BMW, but you still have to lock the front for the ABS to kick in. Doing that while on your side (on the road certainly) is foolhardy at best.
I don't know your experience zenman, but of course you can wash out the front only using 10% brake, if your turning effort is past a certain point.
I would definitely say though, if you overcooked it horribly and needed to brake, ABS would really allow you to stand up right away & just squeeze like a madman. Which could be comforting to know.
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Yeah, that's what I mean. I am sure of my ability to feel the front end grip. But correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the ABS activate when it senses loss of traction, regardless what percentage of brake you're into?
I'm just wondering at what point does the ABS take over control from the rider's input in that type of situation.
As Rocketjock stated in his first post, he's been told by his mechanic (who races) that the ABS may not be desirable in extreme cornering, which is what I'm asking about.
Thanks for the input... the more opinions the merrier, aye?
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Yes, as soon as you lock up the ABS will kick in. So if you want to go that hard, to where you're locking the front (especially cornering) you wouldn't want it because you're obviously doing it deliberately.
The percentage was just an example. If someone were to deliberately brake hard enough say down to the apex then they're obviously going to let off the brake at the instant of lockup; as in, the only reason to do that would be to better a lap time. And in that situation, having the brake lever pulsing and having the bike stand up more(maybe) is the exact opposite to what they want, since they're going very hard.
As you say you are confident in your ability to modulate the brakes that well, so to answer your question depending on that last touch of calibration you will lose control before you've done what you want to do. But like I said you would end up on your ear if you braked hard enough for the ABS to kick in, if you were in any big angle because you will have already used up lots of traction. And weight transfer only makes it worse.
For racing it's mainly the rear that is the issue. But of course on the front you want to be able, if you wish, to be your own ABS so to speak. Like if in a car without ABS you can threshold brake until the last 5 ft. then just slam them on fully, since that last bit won't add any to your stopping distance but you may gain a little more braking. If you judge that your grip will return in a split second after lock-up, the last thing you want is the brakes applying and reaaplying themselves.
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Ok, that's what I was looking for, Dundee. Makes sense to me, I was thinking along those same lines. :idea: "So if you want to go that hard, to where you're locking the front (especially cornering) you wouldn't want it because you're obviously doing it deliberately." Exactly! :wink:
So now if that's the case, if you wanted to take the bike for a weekend track day, or even race it occasionally, can the ABS be disabled?
Sounds like a great feature to have on the street, and worth the extra $$$ for resale value also. But if I can't ride it at track speeds occasionally then I think I'd be better off without it. It would be nice if I could afford to have a street bike and a dedicated track bike, but it's just not in my budget right now.
I've heard it can be disabled simply by removing a fuse. If so, you should be able to install a switch. Anybody know if this is true?
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To all......my .02, as posted in another thread on Bandit vs 'Strom purchasing decision:
IMO, go for the Bandit....but bin the ABS....it's heavier, costs more and has more stuff to go wrong. I've always been leery of computers making braking decisions for me.
Such "decisions" are based on some computer programmer's algorithm burned into a chip and that algorithm cannot possibly cover the infinite variations that the average rider encounters while braking.
If I have an accident due to poor braking technique, I can be sure it's my fault alone and not the fault of a computer.....
and don't get me started about glitches the computer may have as it ages...
Addendum: ABS for 4 wheels makes a lot of sense.....not much chance of going on your ear if the system screws up.
Two wheels, however, is a totally different situation entirely as we all know. Call me a luddite, if you will, but IMO ABS for bikes has a ways to go yet before I'd consider it.....and don't get me started on linked braking systems......
I often wonder why the manufacturers (in a situation like this) wouldn't rather take the money spent on ABS and give us a nice set of multi-pot Brembos with petal rotors. I know I'd consider that a FAR better use of money spent..... :grin:
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God I feel old. I remember I used to bitch about my Father in Law running his company and complaining about the computers by stating,"Nothing a pad of paper and a few good pencils couldn't take care of." Now I say I've ridden bikes all my life without ABS and with brake improvements what they are today, who needs it? Yep, just like old Dad. :roll:
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I'm an ABS fan since 2006, my opinion:
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=7568&start=30
ABS only kicks in when the wheel almost locks.
Until that point, you ride a bike without ABS.
After that point you still ride a bike,now with ABS.
Without ABS on the bike, after that point you would not be riding the bike anymore... :wink:
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One other question about ABS. When I've engaged ABS in my car, ie. on ice or whatever, I've found it actually chatters as opposed to just locking. I know this is better but would find that kind of behaviour unsettling on a bike. Is that how it behaves on a bike?
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I would think so, since the job of ABS is to cycle brake pressure to avoid wheel lockup, and this is the chatter you experience.