Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Sven on January 27, 2007, 03:14:16 PM
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Thought I posted this last week, but it either didn't save, or somebody really disagreed with me and zapped it! --SSS
After a couple seasons lurking at Bandit Alley before becoming one of the resident blabbermouths, I have both great appreciation for the friendly and helpful tone of the BA BBS and the amount of information that is hidden here.
When the Bandit when M.I.A. for a year in America, where we seem to have the bulk of our membership, I began to worry about the site/board's longevity. (Although one of BA's strengths is our non-American participation!) Now that the Bandit is back to worldwide availability (except the Antarctic dealership seems to be a non-event), I do think we should talk about how to capture the knowledge of BA in a more readily-digestible form.
Before I continue, let me please stress that I appreciate the work that has come before in creating the site & BSS, and am thrilled that it continues to do so despite the fact ain't nobody even axed me for fiddy cent for it.
So, here are some thoughts:
KNOWLEDGE MANAGEMENT--We know there are topics/questions that just come up over and over again. (I think I asked many of them myself!) While the answers to some topics change over time (what's the best tire I can buy today?) but others rarely change, and technical guidance on specific models with never change. Researching the old and often duplicative threads is confusing and tiring, especially when someone gets a little huffy (but never rude) with a newbie and says "use search!". Perhaps the summary of our knowledge in these areas could be consolidated and presented outside the BBS format. For example, a wiki format would allow members to come to consensus, and display any dissenting thoughts, on a given topic while still providing a more concise narrative.
THE WEBSITE--It rarely changes. It has limited information. Navigation between pages is inconsistent. The site design and content need to be refreshed. Believe me, I *know* a lot of work was put into these pages to get them into the shape they are now, but the web is a form of publishing, and like other publications (or an old Ford truck) requires an overhaul now and then.
If others feel these are valuable activities, we have a lot of options. At least week's launch of the new slew of Microsoft products, I was particularly jazzed by the new Sharepoint Services. SharePoint is a great way to put together an information-heavy site for a group of people, with the ability to create web pages (create for static pages, as we would have) and a wiki interface that might fit our knowledge management needs. Some SharePoint services are available free from Microsoft.
I am not a programmer, but I do have other skills that I'd be willing to use to help us move towards Bandit Alley 2007. I am not running my mouth without being prepared to work.
I'm not proposing any major overhaul to the heart of the site, the BBS. Why frick with something that's not broken?
So, anyone have any thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Excited? Bored? If I'm alone in my ideas, I won't be hurt, I promise!
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Sounds interesting! Probably more so if I knew what everything you just said meant. I've heard of wikipedia, and I assume that's got something to do with wiki, but I never knew what wiki was, I just thought it was some sort of dictionary take-off website someone put together and gave it that name. I've heard the term SharePoint before, but don't know a thing about that either.
As far as the main Bandit Alley webpages go - they're all managed by PeteSC and his current employment has prevented him from keeping things updated - including the latest version(s) of the phpBB software that runs this board.
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Loosely, a wiki is a website or page that can be edited by anyone (or any approved user). The theory is that the knowledge of the group exceeds the knowledge of the individual. So if this post was in a wiki editor, someone else would come back and revise it to improve the definition of a wiki. Of course, the theory is crap if it turns out that nobody is knowledgable enough about a topic to correct a common misperception!
Side note: I like Wikipedia, despite its potential for disseminating incorrect information, because it's like a distillation of the web itself...someobody somewhere feels compelled to provide detailed information on almost any topic, from pop culture (like the new show HEROES) to treatment for sports injuries.
As for Pete's lack of time: This is exactly why I'm proposing that we look at what can be done to make the site easier to administer and maintain. I appreciate his work and this site, and want to help conserve it for future generations of Bandit owners!
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So you've got the ball... you wanna run with it? :grin:
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Interesting thing i read as far as the potential for disseminating disinformation on Wikipedia. Someone at some college got themselves a grant and decided to do a study on the accuracy of Wikipedia compared to the accuracy of published encyclopedias and found that the the percentages were virtually identical. i would think especially on this forum, if someone posted something straight up wrong, there would be several people who would know better and correct it.
And i apologize for my lack of specific sources, it was a while ago i read it and i just can't even begin to think of where to look.
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Rocky, you got it right, at least as far as one study went. Wikipedia has been analyzed and found to be as correct as Encyclopaedia Britannica. But there was also news last year of an article that was intentionally wrong as joke.
Any wiki product is going to require the community of users to self-police. (Which is sort of what happeneds in the BA BBS already.) And a wiki can also be set to restrict authoring to selected users and require peer review, which is more analogous to publishing.
I find a wiki product to be more responsible journalism than blogs, which are just one person's spew with no oversight. The original term (pronounced "weekee", from a Hawaiian word meaning "fast" or "quickly". Now I'm hearing it pronounced "wikki" and the definition backward engineered to stand for "what I know is...".
Anyway, the wiki aspect isn't a the crux of what I'm proposing, although it's an option. I'm not a server admin (and I don't play one on TV) but I do have other skills that I'd be willing to use to help with this potential project. So this has to be a group effort of interest to the BA community as a whole.
There's time to let a few more people weigh in, anyway.
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So how does (or would) a wiki be different than say... the FAQ's - that nobody seems to read before posting their tireoilchainlube question??
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Overall, what I'd like to see would be individual articles that capture the summary on knowledge for various recurring topics. The FAQs are an attempt that this; some are individual postings created just for the FAQs, some are transcriptions of conversation threads. What I'd recommend is use of a more traditional web interface for that type of topic, getting it out of the BBS format. This doesn't require a wiki interface, but the wiki interface allows the community ti add/edit articles rather than putting the responsibility on one person to first recognize what needs an article, and then to author it.
You also bring up the question of how to do you get people to look at what's already available before posting redundant questions. My experience running a customer service center is that there is no customer-friendly way. But even if someone does post a question that has an article available, the information will be available and will not depend on who chooses to respond.
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Moved this to a section higher on the board so hopefully more will see and respond to it.
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Sven, you make some good points here. How do we get this started? What changes need to be made. Is this something you can do if given Admin privledges?
I think your point is valid, build an updateable knowledge data base outside of the BBS that can be refered to (as opposed to, or in addition to the FAQ section).
How do we get there, and who does the work?
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I'm all for anything that makes it easier to get the info you're looking for.
I have to admit to being one of the people who will post a question rather than spend an hour trying to find just the right thread that deals with the problem/question.
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Does anyone know what's the best chain lube to use ???
(sorry Sven, I couldn't help myself)
:banana: I'm all for anything that makes it easier to get the info you're looking for.
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Sven, you make some good points here. How do we get this started? What changes need to be made. Is this something you can do if given Admin privledges?
I think your point is valid, build an updateable knowledge data base outside of the BBS that can be refered to (as opposed to, or in addition to the FAQ section).
How do we get there, and who does the work?
Admin privileges would only allow him to admin the board from inside it.
Access to the webserver, a la the way that Pete can access it, would allow him to install the software required to do this, but I doubt that will be forthcoming. I'm not browbeating Pete for that, I wouldn't provide that info either, in his shoes.
Now, here's the thing. The easiest way to do this would be:
Create a companion site to banditalley. I'm not suggesting replacing, just supplementing.
This would allow for updates and changes to be made to the wiki software, et al, without Pete needing to be present. Admin privileges could be given to someone who knows webservers, and to someone responsible for overseeing, or admining the content.
It will however need Pete's involvement initially, in order to create the links and otherwise that will join the two, unless it were to be done through sticky posts in the forums.
It would also not be a bad idea to run this by him, so it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to usurp all of what he's built.
Here's the thing about this though. By creating the companion site, there will be costs involved. Hosting, Domain registration, etc. Essentially, we'd be doubling the costs of running the site.
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Create a companion site to banditalley...It would also not be a bad idea to run this by him, so it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to usurp all of what he's built...By creating the companion site, there will be costs involved.
Please note, I am just socializing the idea that the site (the level above the BBS) needs a refresh, and exploring options for preserving knowledge. I don't see the need to build a duplicative site. One option would be to replace the original site with another site or another solution, such as but not limited to SharePoint. Or the current site could be updated and serve as the "front door" for the whole BA concept, with the BBS and a SharePoint interface (or whatever we use for stored knowledge) as subsites, pretty much as the BBS is now.
I am not a server admin, and I was very careful to express my appreciation for what has been done to date. I don't know Pete personally, but can neither imagine that we would do anything without his approval, or that he himself doesn't see things he would change if he had the time to do so.
I appreciate the serious level of the discussion, and there is no deadline requiring that any decision be made immediately. It's encouraging to know that others value the site's content and see opportunity as I do. Let's keep the discussion going until we find the right answers.
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I don't see the need to build a duplicative site. One option would be to replace the original site with another site or another solution, such as but not limited to SharePoint. Or the current site could be updated and serve as the "front door" for the whole BA concept, with the BBS and a SharePoint interface (or whatever we use for stored knowledge) as subsites, pretty much as the BBS is now.
I didn't think anything would be duplicated either. I was mostly looking at a way to do what you want to do, but without having to -require- Pete's time to do it. That's why I mentioned a companion site, to imply that it wasn't meant to take over the content from the Alley.
There are tons of free wiki softwares out there. I personally would be reluctant to go with the microsoft solution for a few reasons.
1. It's Microsoft. They may abandon it, they may decide it's not free anymore, they may decide that you need x number of CALs (client access licenses) to use it.
2. It limits the number of servers that it can be run on. For instance, chances are that it couldn't be run on the server that currently hosts bandit alley, as it's not a windows server.
I am not a server admin, and I was very careful to express my appreciation for what has been done to date. I don't know Pete personally, but can neither imagine that we would do anything without his approval, or that he himself doesn't see things he would change if he had the time to do so.
Sven, I wasn't attacking you or your idea. I was merely mentioning some of what would be involved and a possible solution. I am sure that Pete would love to have more involvement here, but also know that he simple doesn't have the time currently. That's why I mentioned the possible way around that.
I -am- a server admin, and so I made suggestions.
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I personally would be reluctant to go with the microsoft solution for a few reasons....
Great feedback. And we don't *have* to use a wiki interface, if individuals want to become the author/editors of certain categories of information. That's a workload issue, but so is determining who has permissions to edit a wiki.
Am teaching Vignette Content Management today, so my web-centric thoughts are about all used up!
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If you need any graphical/image editing/design work, I might be persuaded to assist as it is what I do for $. :stickpoke:
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If you need any graphical/image editing/design work, I might be persuaded to assist as it is what I do for $. :stickpoke:
We might just be able to put you to work... :stickpoke:
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=8557&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
See my post from: Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:30 pm
Also, once we get the site evolved a little, I can see a use for your skills as well!
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I've only viewed this site for a few weeks.
My first impression, too bad it's not more like the www.fz1oa.com site.
I'm in the process of selling my 2004 FZ1 so I can get the new 1250. But I'm going to miss the fz10a site, especially http://www.cartestsoftware.com/fz1/ .
Just my $.02
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I've only viewed this site for a few weeks.
My first impression, too bad it's not more like the www.fz1oa.com site.
I'm in the process of selling my 2004 FZ1 so I can get the new 1250. But I'm going to miss the fz10a site, especially http://www.cartestsoftware.com/fz1/ .
Just my $.02
Hi wunaB
:welcome:
Have a look at this thread, we've been talking about some changes.
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=8543
and while you're at it, we could use your input here too:
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=8557
I see you have another vote for vbulletin. The reason we're currently steering clear of that one is that it's a subscription based software. It will raise the operational costs of the board.
For now, what I want to do is see if the board supports itself using the free forum that the board was using prior to me taking over. If it does, and looks like it can also pay for the subscription to vBulletin, we -may- go that route, but there are other free ones that are options as well. There's a lot of time and energy required to make a migration from phpBB to any other board, so we need to make it carefully, cos I don't want to be tweaking it for months afterward, just to make it functional, and I don't want to have to go,... well that didn't work, let's try another....
There are mods and changes coming for the board though, and I'm looking at trying to get some features, similar to the ones you posted, into the board.
The other thing too, is that the "new" version of the software that we use for this board will have a ton of those features, we just have to provide content. I won't move to it yet though, because the newest version is still very buggy.
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:clap:
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Am teaching Vignette Content Management today, so my web-centric thoughts are about all used up!
I like a good balsalmic Vignette myself. YUM!
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stormi
I should have been more clear (not feel well today).
The forum engine is not important to me. And I should also say that BABBS is a pretty good site as is, its just new for me and I'm used to the organization of FZ1OA.
Pat's site has been such a handy page for doing maintenance and mods, is there a similar Bandit site?
To be honest, I never thought about the operating costs for FZ1OA, in the 2.5 years I've been on, it was never mentioned.
When the new FZ1 came out, they broke the main forum page into Gen1 and Gen2. The collective liked it the old way, and a poll confirmed it. So they put back to the original way.
In the maintenance section however, it is split between gen1 and gen2. Since I've never owned a Bandit, that may be handy for a nuB, to have a 1200 and 1250 section under GM&T.
FYIW, I didn't get the 04' Bandit because of the motor. I had a 1987 GSXR1100. In the Phoenix summers the tank would get so hot I'd get burns on the insides of my legs. It actually sounded like the gas was boiling in the tank. I didn't want to risk that again, with basically the same motor. I sold the Gixxer after 6 years and got a VX800 (which I still have).
I wanted a liter bike again to have a more relaxed freeway ride (rpm at 75). Unfortunately the FZ1 does not deliver that, but it sounds like the 1250 does.
Sorry for the ramble...
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Pat's site has been such a handy page for doing maintenance and mods, is there a similar Bandit site?
There's at least two:
Bill "Blade" Johnson's site (http://www.billsbikesnservice.com/techwork.htm) covers popular performance mods with lots of pictures.
Fast Larry's site (http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/) is home to the Bandit FAQ (for 600/1200) (http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/banditfaq.htm) and a Service Tips for the Bandit 1200 (http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/bandit_tips.htm) page.
In the maintenance section however, it is split between gen1 and gen2. Since I've never owned a Bandit, that may be handy for a nuB, to have a 1200 and 1250 section under GM&T.
We do have a separate section for the 650 & 1250 water-pumpers in the Bandit 600 through 1250 section. :grin:
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My business website was constructed using an open source set of tools known as Joomla which is pretty popular these days. Joomla isn't coming from a company and I doubt support will cease. There is a front end log in and a back end log in. The front end is for essentially editing web pages and the back end is more for admin of the site. If a wiki-environ was needed, Joomla would fill this bill as front end privelages are for document editing/saving while back end stuff is for more of the typical website admin stuff. Have a look at my site: www.wgcarbs.com - I also host a small message forum that is linked off that page... it is a free message forum and I can't really promote it but it works (aimoo.com). If you want to look at a larger, bike message board using Joomla, look at www.kzrider.com - note in the area where there are tech articles, folks are given permission to edit their own articles. This makes Joomla a pretty decent tool for a site such as Sven envisioned.
I personally like this message board but think that the main bandit alley site could use some updating or a redo; especially if the owner is not coming back to pick up the ball. I would like to see more tech stuff in categories by bike model, more organized links, online tech documents (like manuals, etc) where copyright isn't an issue. Oh yeah, by tech stuff, I mean if a subject has been fully explored, rather than put it in a stickey on the BBS, put it in a write up (not a thread) authored by a single person... there could even be competing techniques for doing the same thing written up.
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I personally like this message board but think that the main bandit alley site could use some updating or a redo...if a subject has been fully explored, rather than put it in a stickey on the BBS, put it in a write up (not a thread) authored by a single person... there could even be competing techniques for doing the same thing written up.
This is where I was coming from when I started this discussion a few moons ago. Thanks for voicing your opinion as well.
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It would be nice just to keep things simple which is what is so attractive about this site and have a reliable 24/7 working board. In the words of one world famous engineer "The more you overhaul the pluming in any good system, the easier it is to stop up the drain"
I agree 100%. The mods I want to do are strictly functional. Things that should have been here in the beginning.
If I can get over this cold ( a thick head, and making changes to a forum is not a good combination. I learned the hard way a couple of years ago.), and stop hardware from self-destructing, I'll be able to make some of those mods. *none of the hardware problems are related to the site,... just my own machines here, but greatly affecting the time available to work on the site. And ride, despite it being in the high fifties to low 60s most of the week so far, I haven't gotten out, I've just been inside my dungeon office, trying to manage everything.
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stormi
I should have been more clear (not feel well today).
The forum engine is not important to me. And I should also say that BABBS is a pretty good site as is, its just new for me and I'm used to the organization of FZ1OA.
Well,.. suggest away. :) I do want to make some changes to the site, and I want to try to preserve some of Pete's stuff from the old site, so that we don't lose it. I was actually puttering through there the other day. He's got a lot of info up there.
I want to make sure that the majority of people have the opportunity to contribute suggestions to the changes, and remain involved. This site is for all of us,.. even the "nuBs". :stickpoke:
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If a wiki-environ was needed, Joomla would fill this bill as front end privelages are for document editing/saving while back end stuff is for more of the typical website admin stuff. <snip>This makes Joomla a pretty decent tool for a site such as Sven envisioned.
I like the idea of a wiki, myself as well. The big hurdle that we had with implementing one is now largely gone. I have full access to the server that the site lives on (other than the legacy stuff that still lives at the BanditAlley site for now.) This means that we can implement whatever we want to.
By show of hands,.. er,.. posts... how many would have some content to contribute to a wiki, and would want to be involved in the building of the wiki? I don't want to put one up for two articles. :wink:
I personally like this message board but think that the main bandit alley site could use some updating or a redo; especially if the owner is not coming back to pick up the ball. I would like to see more tech stuff in categories by bike model, more organized links, online tech documents (like manuals, etc) where copyright isn't an issue. Oh yeah, by tech stuff, I mean if a subject has been fully explored, rather than put it in a stickey on the BBS, put it in a write up (not a thread) authored by a single person... there could even be competing techniques for doing the same thing written up.
all very good suggestions! If we implement the wiki,.. can you contribute some of this? I know that I simply don't have -that- much time to do all of the wiki content, and keep the site up. Not if I wanna ride this year. ( It's looking like moving to warmer climes is getting better and better. I wouldn't have to budget my time so I get -some- riding in, I could ride year round. :grin: )
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Well, it's apparent I have no problem with handling some writing chores (don't make me post my latest parallel between Ewan McGregor and myself!). Would be great to have access to a content management application, but we can live wihtout one.
One way to gather the accumulated knowledge that exists in these threads is to raise a subject, and ask people to PM either links to relevant posts or simply re-state their knowledge. Would be great to have the ability to share a preview/draft to a review community prior to publishing.
What I would like is the freedom (my word choice) to have someone simply tell me what they want me to work on...I do project management at work, and so the ability to just DO and not MANAGE would be more enjoyable.
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What I would like is the freedom (my word choice) to have someone simply tell me what they want me to work on...I do project management at work, and so the ability to just DO and not MANAGE would be more enjoyable.
Alright,... how about this,... why don't you get me a list of 3 or 4 CMS' and/ or wikis that will cost the site nothing to use, and run on linux, apache, and mysql (optional, flat files are fine too.) and let me know estimated time to install, and we'll go from there.
If you want some hands on,.. I got it to give right now, I gots more than I can do in this lifetime that I want to take care of on this and other projects. ;)
The biggest problem is, without someone to "do" other than me,... I can't do research as well as do.
In the meantime, anyone else thinking of piping up to say that they'll contribute content? :wink:
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why don't you get me a list of 3 or 4 CMS' and/ or wikis that will cost the site nothing to use, and run on linux, apache, and mysql (optional, flat files are fine too.) and let me know estimated time to install, and we'll go from there.
I will start looking into that. Anyone who wants to voice an opinion about a product or point me towards a resource can PM me thru Bandit Alley, or email me at elbandido @ bellsouth .net.
note: Mod edited to de-linkify the email address to prevent Sven from getting unholy amounts of spam. Just join all the parts to get the address.
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Thanks Sven, I really appreciate this!
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note: Mod edited to de-linkify the email address to prevent Sven from getting unholy amounts of spam. Just join all the parts to get the address.
Thanks for looking out for me.
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Right back atcha. :wink: