Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: scooter trash on April 24, 2006, 09:23:45 AM
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Anyone using ethanol based fuel in their Bandit?? Virginia will be switching to ethanol based fuel by the first of May (next Monday).
Have you noticed any changes in performance? Fuel mileage, etc ??
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No but we in Oz have heard some horror stories here of what it does to fuel systems. Plastics, and other fuel system parts can be eaten away by the stuff. Car manufactures over here will not honour warranty claims if they find you have be using enthol blended fuels. Personally I have steered clear of using it. But having said that some oil companies, and or petrol station operators have been blending ethnol fuels, and have had the shyte kicked out of them for doing so. Now if they wish to blend ethnol with fuel they are required to put big big signs up saying so.
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No but we in Oz have heard some horror stories here of what it does to fuel systems. Plastics, and other fuel system parts can be eaten away by the stuff. Car manufactures over here will not honour warranty claims if they find you have be using enthol blended fuels. Personally I have steered clear of using it. But having said that some oil companies, and or petrol station operators have been blending ethnol fuels, and have had the shyte kicked out of them for doing so. Now if they wish to blend ethnol with fuel they are required to put big big signs up saying so.
I thought it was Methonol that the manufactures didn't like........
either way, it's a bit rude, as you really don't know what you're getting when you fill up these days....
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Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel.
Ya need to rejet for it to. like the jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger.
The big shyte fight not that long ago, that our federal government even got imvolved with was the use of ethonol, and selling it blended greater than 10% and not telling the comsumer that iin fact it was blended.
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Great !!!!!
The gas situation here in Virginia Beach, VA is getting to be ridiculous. Fuel shortages, gas stations closed with no fuel. Prices changing hourly. Stations that have gas are charging outrageous prices. And all because we are switching to ethanol. They say they have to empty their storage tanks and have the water taken out of the tanks before they can put the ethanol in the tanks. It’s a mess. Meanwhile the oil companies are about to announce record profits again for this quarter while we sit in gas lines waiting to pay top dollar for regular.
:sad:
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White Lightnin' - corn mash and moonshine..
The farmers n SC use it all the time, the ag fuel is died green so you can't use it in nuthin but farm vehicles. Hell, as rural as it is here, I betcha some of em' make there own with there own grown corn crops.
How would you lke that kinda quality control..
TOTALLY OFF SUBJECT POST !!!
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Are you getting it to replace MTBE? If so, ethanol is the lesser of the two evils.
We used to have to get MTBE/ethanol fuels in the winter for air quality reasons in the Greater Seattle/Tacoma area. A few years ago, the EPA said we'd cleaned up our air enough we no longer had to have laced gas at all. :bigok:
In the US, they're required by law to put a decal on the pump if the fuel contains 10% or more alcohol. So, I don't buy gas from stations with the stickers on the pump. Around here, that's ARCO & Union 76.
I used to run ARCO gas in my cages because it was cheapest, then I learned of the things that can happen from running alcohol laced gas from a friend who spins wrenches at a GM dealership... and every car that came into the shop with FI delivery problems was an ARCO customer. (76 hadn't started lacing their gas yet back then.) Once I started staying away from ARCO, I noticed the cages got better mpg and had better snap. So far, the B12 has only had one fillup with laced gas, and that was when I'd stopped in a 76 station - and didn't noticed the alcohol sticker until the tank was almost full.
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Once I started staying away from ARCO, I noticed the cages got better mpg and had better snap. So far, the B12 has only had one fillup with laced gas, and that was when I'd stopped in a 76 station - and didn't noticed the alcohol sticker until the tank was almost full.
Maybe the pillar of the site Red 01 (on that other coast) will do a test for all our bikes safety! Got to stay loyal to Pete SC! Maybe seen @ B.O.S.S.!!
Alcohol will sure eat up some rubber stuff and dissolve paint. :stickpoke: :beers: :motorsmile:
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We have been using 10% ethanol in Iowa for years. When you got so much corn around it just makes sense. I dont fill up with anything other than the bleneded because the 89 or 90 octane blended is about a dime cheaper per gallon than the 87 octane straight up. I would venture to say that it is pretty safe. I have never had a problem in my other bikes with it and my cars don't seem to mind it. I have heard that it attracts water and I have also heard the opposite....no rusty gas tanks for me thus far. Is anyone from MN? I hear they use a 15-20% in all gas there.
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Not trying to open another can of worms here, but hero, have you followed any of the octane threads?
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I just read where it takes 1 1/2 gals. of gas to produce 1 gal. of ethanol.Also we, the tax payers, give $30.00 in subsidies to the ethanol compaines for every $1 dollar of profit they make.
Just something to think about. :idea:
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Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel.
Ya need to rejet for it to. like the jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger.
The big shyte fight not that long ago, that our federal government even got imvolved with was the use of ethonol, and selling it blended greater than 10% and not telling the comsumer that iin fact it was blended.
I thought methanol was wood alcohol and was a no no in all but highly modified race engines. I see the zuk manual said not to be used, where ethanol is ok and suggested up to 15%! This could become a bigger can of worms than the oil. Or the requirement of the stealer doing the services! That costly 600 mile one they say is needed. "BAHUMBUG" :monkeymoon: :duh:
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Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel.
Hey B6 i'm not :monkeymoon: You! the stealer! Hey will there be any sugar cane left after this blow is over to make go Juice???? Wow what a blow!!!! :beers:
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Ethanol has been used in MN for the last few years with NO problems except lower gas mileage.
Methanol. or wood alcohol, is the bad stuff and if used in gasoline it should be accompanied by a co-solvent like Acetone or Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone, both of which are expensive to add. Without the co-solvents it WILL affect carburetor gaskets and float needle rubber parts. MTBE or Methyl-Tertiary-Butyl-Ether is being phased out due to it's ground water polluting effects. I think this is the last year it can be used.
Ethanol won't affect carb parts for anything made much after 1979 or 1980. ON my lst few bikes the owner's manual states that a maximum of 10% ethanol is okay, but warns not to use 15% solutions. It adds that the warranty will be void should that happen.
Since alcohol contains only about 55% of the energy per pound as gasoline the mix will result in slightly lower MPG. I found it to be about 5-10% on my Bandit 1200.
On a car it will be worse because of the fuel injection systems commonly used these days. The increase in oxygen content of the exhaust gas will be sensed by the oxygen sensor(s) in the system and showing too much oxygen the fuel injection computer will be told to richen the mixture. It does this by widening the voltage pulse to the injectors, effectively dropping mileage -- on my two late model cars it's about 10-15% compared to non-oxygenated fuels.
In a nutshell, it won't hurt the Bandit save for the increased gas consumption. It "fakes" a higher octane effect in that the cooling effect of alcohol minimized ping -- actually octane rating is NOT changed, just the effect.
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From April through October it's all at least 10% Ethanol in the Chicago area.
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Not trying to open another can of worms here, but hero, have you followed any of the octane threads?
nope....what are you getting at? The combustion of the higher octane?
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Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel.
Ya need to rejet for it to. like the jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger.
The big shyte fight not that long ago, that our federal government even got imvolved with was the use of ethonol, and selling it blended greater than 10% and not telling the comsumer that iin fact it was blended.
I thought methanol was wood alcohol and was a no no in all but highly modified race engines. I see the zuk manual said not to be used, where ethanol is ok and suggested up to 15%! This could become a bigger can of worms than the oil. Or the requirement of the stealer doing the services! That costly 600 mile one they say is needed. "BAHUMBUG" :monkeymoon: :duh:
Thats right mate, as I said, Quote " Methonol is the good stuff, but its kind of expensive, racing fuel." Drag racers use it, but not your street type racer. I think you can still use it in some forms of classic racing too. Needs huge amount of work on the motors, cams and carby work, hence the statement about " jets need to be so big ya could drop ya fist through them. No not quite, but lots lots bigger." And of course with jets so much bigger ya use shyte loads more. To my knowledge not likely to replace ULP or PULP fuels. Ethonal however is used in some South Americian countries, with a lot of success. Mind you car manufactures have been forced to make changes to fuel systems, ignition timing and some materials used. Just a pity these manufactures carnt do the same here, oooophs that would be a political lame duck statement wouldn't it. :duh:
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Not trying to open another can of worms here, but hero, have you followed any of the octane threads?
nope....what are you getting at? The combustion of the higher octane?
The lower combusibility of higher octane fuel, yes.
You aren't doing an engine designed to run on regular any favors by burning premium in it. The best thing to do is to run the lowest octane you can get away with that won't cause knocking. The higher the octane, the harder a fuel is to burn.
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Thanks everyone especially ray nielsen for the info. Virginia is doing away with all fuel with MTBE or Methyl-Tertiary-Butyl-Ether so we are stuck with the Ethanol.
:thanks:
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Fuel blended with Ethanol can bring up some other problems...
The fuel blend can be very sensitive to small amounts of water and high frequency vibrations...the water can cause the ethanol to separate.
I had this very problem on a nice road trip home from Vancouver to Cranbrook, about 900 kms one day. Filled in Vancouver at a site that uses Ethanol blended fuels, on a wet, light rain morning. Once I switched to reserve about 300km later, that was it, lights out.
I had discussions with the station and oil company reps who swore up and down that I had to have had "significant" water in my fuel tank, and that the water and vibration together contributed to the fuel separation.
I have also seen the same problem frequently in Marine applications. In premixed marine service, the water, alcohol and OIL will all separate from the gasoline and drop to the bottom of the fuel tank, leaving your engine to run on insufficient oil.
So...I avoid Ethanol blends in my bikes and boat. It doesn't seem to cause the same level of problems in cars, likely due to the type of vibration.
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In Brazil we have, believe me or not, 25% of ethanol from since I can remember. The lower mpg does not bother me, but all our imported vehicles have some engine parts changed to avoid corrosion from the water generated after the combustion and from the ethanol itself. The exhaust system suffers a lot also. After 20.000km, I had to change the needles, but as my Suzi dealer would have to order them from Japan, and I would have this same problem later, I went to V-Max ethanol-proof needles that Yamaha-Brazil produces.
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New York started using the 10% ethanol blended gas and it has been reeking havoc in the marine industry. I'm also hearing that a lot of motorcycles, snow mobiles and jet skis are having issues too. Small carburetors and small passages clog easily. The problem is the ethanol absorbs water and then you get these water slugs at the bottom of the tank where the pickups are. Those slugs try to pass through the carb and just clog up everything small with the gunk they carry. The ethanol eats away at rubber gaskets and o-rings too causing them to swell.
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i'm from Minnesota and the one thing i do know about ethanol fuel is that the dairy and beef cattle farmers can barely afford corn for their critters anymore.
Sooo......, what we have is a fuel that is marginally more friendly to the environment, except for the fact that it more than makes up for that in the oil used in production, the worse gas mileage, and the pollution from the factories creating more parts to replace early wearing ones. Then on top of that, i have to pay more for a hamburger and an ice cream cone?
Who's winning here?
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i'm from Minnesota and the one thing i do know about ethanol fuel is that the dairy and beef cattle farmers can barely afford corn for their critters anymore.
Sooo......, what we have is a fuel that is marginally more friendly to the environment, except for the fact that it more than makes up for that in the oil used in production, the worse gas mileage, and the pollution from the factories creating more parts to replace early wearing ones. Then on top of that, i have to pay more for a hamburger and an ice cream cone?
Who's winning here?
From all of the literature out there on Ethanol it has never been the answer that the oil companies and politicians say it is. It actually requires more oil in the form of fuel for the farm equipment and fertilizer that it saves as a fuel additive.
I would also add that the manual notes the maximum for ethanol additives would mean that regular and midrange fuel are ok but not premium, at least the way fuel is blended here in Alberta.
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All I know is what I have experienced with my personal use of ethanol. It was prevalent up until the late 60 when the oil companies got congress to stop the use of grain based alcohol (ethanol) in gasoline then returning again in the 90's. 10% ethanol helps even low grade gasoline burn much cleaner and more completely, you can feel it when you drive and see it in your clean fuel system. So for me its an unequivocal fact that the fuel once known as Ethol is and was an excellent blend that fare exceeds gasoline only blends. For those of you that differ, speak to the gas cap cause the fuel system is not listening.
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The fuel once known as Ethyl got it's name from Tetra-Ethyl Lead (TEL), not Ethyl Alcohol (ethanol). In the early 1920's GM wanted to run it's engines on pure ethanol, but oil companies were unwilling to sell it, so GM came up with the solution to add TEL to gasoline to prevent knock and allow the development of higher performing engines.
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Hmmmm? Perhaps I got the wrong play on words, I meant ethanol gasoline (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline). Hay! Your supposed to be the site Conciliary, not the accuser. :stickpoke:
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Gasoline blended in a 90/10 mix with ethanol is known as gasohol or more recently, E10. The gas in the late 60's (even into the late 70's in some areas) known as Ethyl was simply hi-test gasolene laced with more TEL than regular (leaded) gasoline. It got the name from the "E" in TEL.
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I attended a meeting on Tuesday of the New York Marine Trades Association. They had two guest speakers, one of whom was a regional dude from Yamaha. I'm currently in training to become a certified marine mechanic so these types of discussions are important. Here's what I learned.
Ethanol loves to attract water. As a matter of fact, ethanol is 200% more likely to bond with water over gasoline mixtures (octane, heptane, etc.) The problem is small amounts of ethanol need even smaller amounts of water to phase separate from the gas. The Yami dude said something like 0.1 of 1% or whatever. Basically in a small bike gas tank that holds about five gallons of fuel, you have half a gallon of ethanol. So you'd only need to absorb roughly however many pints of water to cause the ethanol and water to sink to the bottom of the tank. In boats you're talking 50-100 gallon tanks so it takes more water to phase separate the ethanol. However marine applications have to vent to the outside atmosphere. Not a good thing when you're on the sea in July and its humid and 90° out. So if bike tanks vent to the outside air, that can be a problem.
E-10 gas is also a very mild electrolyte as well as a very strong solvent. Put E-10 in an old gas tank and whatever corrosion/grit/stuff etc on the tank will be stripped off and suspended into the fuel tank. Being an electrolyte it can actually oxidize aluminum tanks, albeit very slowly and over a long period of time. Still this can cause a small brownish silty residue to form on the bottom of the tank. This is more likely in marine applications as well. However add a noble metal such as copper strands from wire you happen to be stripping over an open tank and the electrolytic effect magnifies.
E-10 causes gasoline to go stale quicker too, typically up to 8 weeks before its going to start to phase separate and decrease in octane. It is recommended that stabilizers are used to reduce this all year long. Not just for long periods of storage. The best thing you can do with E-10 is use it up quickly or drain the tank completely. You need to run the engine dry too.
Ethanol is the EPA's answer to environmental clean up and reduced greenhouse emmissons. They wanted biorenewable fuel additives and MTBE was poisioning the water tables. If your state doesn't use it, it probably will very soon. Ethanol also decreases your fuel economy. So you will in the long run be buying more gasoline. It will burn cleaner and faster, thus pocketing more money in the oil companies' pockets.
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It just drives me nuts that gvmt. agencies would look at tailpipe emissions and say "yup, we'll do this to cut down on greenhouse gases" and not pay attention to the emissions caused by making the stuff, and that more gas is being burned. i guess it's too much to ask from people whose only real job requirement is being popular. For some reason these people can only handle science in the absolutely most diluted and easily digestable form.
Hmmm, worked a 19 hour shift today and it's starting to look like i'm a little crabby. Time to stop posting and go to bed. :stickpoke: