GVWR Q - My F250 is less suited to pulling a trailer than r_outsider's F150?

[stormi]

Hey all,

I'm terribly confused!

We have the following vehicles:
97 f150 - GVWR - 6250# approximate weight: 4600# which leaves 1650# available for payload and passengers
00 F250 7.3 PSD - GVWR 8800# approx weight: 7440# which leaves 1360# available for payload and passengers

Now.. what I understand of GVWR and payload is:
GVWR = weight of truck + passengers + driver + contents of box and cab + hitch weight + 1/2 tank of fuel
Payload = GVWR - (weight of truck, passengers, driver, cab contents, fuel)
Payload includes:
box contents
trailer tongue weight

The "posted" tongue weight of our trailer is 1160#

So, here are my questions:

Why does a 2000 F250 Gas engine have the same GVWR as a 2000 F250 Diesel engine?
Strictly because it's the weight on the wheels?

If so,.. why does a 2009 F250 with a 5.4 have a GVWR of 9000#, and a 2009 F250 6.0 PSD have a GVWR of 10000#?

Also,... how on earth can a person say that (strictly based on the numbers) our 97 F150 is more suited to pulling our 9500# (wet and loaded with 2 bikes) trailer, than our F250 PSD?

We've pulled the trailer with both trucks.  The F150 scared the hell out of both of us in a cross wind especially.  It's why we bought the F250.  We pulled the trailer with the F250 through the crowsnest pass and through Pincher creek where there are wind turbines all over, and for good reason.

From what I'm seeing though, on paper, the F250 can get us pulled over and the truck impounded for being "unsafe", especially in places like BC, whereas (again on paper) the F150 wouldn't?

But I've also been told you can't pull a trailer with a Half ton in BC.

So,.. My 3/4 ton truck is worse (for pulling) than a 1/2 ton?
I'm having trouble with this logic.  The Ford dealer agreed with it though

Now, Because I really hate diesel trucks (maintenance costs, price of fuel, noise, smell, moodiness in the winter) we're looking at getting rid of the Mustang and the Diesel, and getting a 2009 F150.

Of course I don't want to put $40 - 50K into a truck and go "OOPS! That's not gonna work."

the 2009 F150 has a GVWR of 7200# and an approximate curb weight of 5040#
This means that we'd be well within our GVWR limit, and technically legal in BC, but this also means that the truck is less than 500 lbs heavier than the 97,.. I'd think it will get pushed around just about as bad as the 97....??

Also,.. there's that "you can't pull with a 1/2 ton in BC" rule that I keep hearing.

Comments anyone?

[Barbarian]

When in doubt, check with the aw-thor-it-tays! http://www.icbc.com/home

I did a brief search, but couldn't narrow things down to towing a trailer that wasn't an RV.

[Red01]

Now.. what I understand of GVWR and payload is:
GVWR = weight of truck + passengers + driver + contents of box and cab + hitch weight + 1/2 tank of fuel
Payload = GVWR - (weight of truck, passengers, driver, cab contents, fuel)
Payload includes: box contents, trailer tongue weight

Sounds like you've pretty much got a handle on it.  GVWR is the max scale weight, with both axles on the scale... so this would include any and all fuel.
Payload would be whatever YOU put in the truck, including yourself.  Essentially, GVWR - Empty Weight = Payload

The "posted" tongue weight of our trailer is 1160#

That's a heavy tongue weight! Are you sure 1,160 is the tongue weight, or the trailer's empty weight?  If that is the tongue weight, you need to check what the tongue weight ratings are for whatever you want to pull this trailer with and the hitch itself. 

Class III hitch systems typically are rated for 500-750 lbs of tongue weight.  A Class IV can go up to 1,700 lbs.  A IV uses the same size slide-in hitch adapter, but is solid square bar, whereas the III is hollow square tube.  Check the hitch structure to be sure it's rated for III and IV before going with a IV adapter.

So, here are my questions:

Why does a 2000 F250 Gas engine have the same GVWR as a 2000 F250 Diesel engine?
Strictly because it's the weight on the wheels?

In this case, I'm guessing, yes.  And since the diesel is heavier than the gas engine, you'd loose some payload with the diesel.  This is also common with 4X4's... they often have the same GVWR & GCWR as the 4X2, but since the extra drivetrain weighs more, you'll loose some payload.

If so,.. why does a 2009 F250 with a 5.4 have a GVWR of 9000#, and a 2009 F250 6.0 PSD have a GVWR of 10000#?

I'm guessing Ford decided to make some kind of change to the diesel equipped trucks in the meantime.  Either a heavier duty rear axle, beefier suspension, a different/reinforced frame or some combination.  I know back in the 70's and early 80's Ford used different frames and cabs for 4x4 and 4x2 trucks, but GM & Dodge did not.

Also,... how on earth can a person say that (strictly based on the numbers) our 97 F150 is more suited to pulling our 9500# (wet and loaded with 2 bikes) trailer, than our F250 PSD?

One set of numbers I haven't seen you post is the GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight) of these trucks.  I'd certainly hope the F250's are rated to  tow heavier trailers than the FISO's.

Now, Because I really hate diesel trucks (maintenance costs, price of fuel, noise, smell, moodiness in the winter) we're looking at getting rid of the Mustang and the Diesel, and getting a 2009 F150.

Of course I don't want to put $40 - 50K into a truck and go "OOPS! That's not gonna work."

the 2009 F150 has a GVWR of 7200# and an approximate curb weight of 5040#
This means that we'd be well within our GVWR limit, and technically legal in BC, but this also means that the truck is less than 500 lbs heavier than the 97,.. I'd think it will get pushed around just about as bad as the 97....??

Also,.. there's that "you can't pull with a 1/2 ton in BC" rule that I keep hearing.

Comments anyone?

Why not buy a clean used late model 1 ton gas engined truck - then you know you're covered! 

[Red01]

I just did a little digging...
The US Ford truck sites are currently returning DNS messages whenever I tried to get into their spec sections, but from other buyer info sites, I found these specs, allegedly Ford supplied:

2009 F-150
GCVW: 10,600 - 17,100 lbs
Payload: 1,650 - 3,030 lbs
Trailer weight: 5,400-11,300 lbs

2009 F-250
GCVW: 16,000 - 23,500 lbs
Payload: 2,500 - 2,830 lbs
Trailer weight: 5,000 lbs with conventional hitch, up to 12,500 lbs with weight distributing hitch

The ranges depend on how the truck is equipped, ie; which engines, axle ratios, 4X2 or 4X4, and wheelbases/cabs are selected. 

I did not find what the maximum tongue weights are for either model though.  This will depend somewhat on the class rating of your hitch system.

I found it odd that Ford didn't recommend the F-250 for 5th wheel/gooseneck towing (directing folks to the F-350 for that), but shows the F-150 pulling a 5th wheel travel trailer on their front page (which wouldn't allow me access to their specs page).

[stormi]

When in doubt, check with the aw-thor-it-tays! http://www.icbc.com/home

I did a brief search, but couldn't narrow things down to towing a trailer that wasn't an RV.

Ahh,.. this trailer is an RV :) Toy hauler.

I looked on their site, and I didn't see anything either about 1/2 tons.  I saw that if you go over your GVWR prepared to have a real issue with "the law"... the RV forums (trailerlife and rv,net) seem to back that up

[Red01]

I hadn't heard of BC having an issue with 1/2T's... but then most folks I know that tow anything into BC are using 3/4 or 1T's.

I do know a guy who was turned around at the WA/BC border towing a boat with a 1/2T Suburban, but it was because his boat trailer didn't have brakes.  It was a light enough trailer to not require brakes in WA, but BC required brakes, so wouldn't let him across until his trailer had brakes, so he went into Bellingham and had brakes installed.  I guess he was determined to go fishing in BC on that trip!   

[Red01]

I think this can pull your trailer...

[stormi]

I just did a little digging...
The US Ford truck sites are currently returning DNS messages whenever I tried to get into their spec sections, but from other buyer info sites, I found these specs, allegedly Ford supplied:

2009 F-150
GCVW: 10,600 - 17,100 lbs
Payload: 1,650 - 3,030 lbs
Trailer weight: 5,400-11,300 lbs

2009 F-250
GCVW: 16,000 - 23,500 lbs
Payload: 2,500 - 2,830 lbs
Trailer weight: 5,000 lbs with conventional hitch, up to 12,500 lbs with weight distributing hitch

Of course these numbers are all very misleading.
You will pretty much -never- reach the GCVW without going over your payload rating.

The trailer weights are misleading because in all reality, they're really just telling you what the class of the hitch is.  Class 4 or 5, based on "trailer weight" allowed.

The new 2009 F150 with the Max trailer tow package will pull our trailer.  At full load (that we can forsee using it - i.e. 2 street bikes and 2 dirt bikes) the trailer will tip the scales at about 10K#  assume 10%ish for tongue weight and we should expect around 1k# on the tongue.  add to that a genset in the bed of the truck, 2 passengers and a driver, plus a full tank of diesel and maybe a little entertainment for the youngest passenger, I expect the weight of the truck (payload wise) to come in somewhere around 1800# - but now we subtract the stuff that's "included" in the curb weight of the truck - driver 150#, half tank of fuel 150#

I'm guessing that puts us around the 1500# mark.  Incidentally, 140# over the payload of the F250 we're currently using.

The ranges depend on how the truck is equipped, ie; which engines, axle ratios, 4X2 or 4X4, and wheelbases/cabs are selected. 

That makes sense in my mind.  I couldn't however find the same sliding scale for the 2000.  All I could find was , if you have a F250, it's 8800# GVWR.

I did not find what the maximum tongue weights are for either model though.  This will depend somewhat on the class rating of your hitch system.

That's exactly what it will be.  I think that's why they don't bother publishing them.  The hitch weight is also tied to the GVWR.  If you load the bed of the truck and have a bunch of passengers, you shouldn't be carrying the max hitch weight either.  

I found it odd that Ford didn't recommend the F-250 for 5th wheel/gooseneck towing (directing folks to the F-350 for that), but shows the F-150 pulling a 5th wheel travel trailer on their front page (which wouldn't allow me access to their specs page).

LOL! I Hear that.  I talked to an Alberta Transportation Vehicle Inspection guy on Friday, and he said he couldn't figure out what the manufacturers were doing either.  They'd basically given up trying to figure it out because the GVWR ratings were all over the board.  The F150s (and similar) were coming with better payload abilities than the Superduties and so on.

What he did say is that they go by the GVWR.  Go over that and you're in a world of hurt.

The ford dealer also mentioned that the F250s in some provinces, notably BC are classified as "recreational" vehicles and therefore come with a 10% surtax, whereas the F350 is a commercial truck, hence no such surcharge.  First I've ever heard of that though.

[stormi]

I hadn't heard of BC having an issue with 1/2T's... but then most folks I know that tow anything into BC are using 3/4 or 1T's.

And with most 1/2t's I'd think you'd be nuts to try to tow in BC anyway.  The hills alone would make you pee your pants in some places.

I do know a guy who was turned around at the WA/BC border towing a boat with a 1/2T Suburban, but it was because his boat trailer didn't have brakes.  It was a light enough trailer to not require brakes in WA, but BC required brakes, so wouldn't let him across until his trailer had brakes, so he went into Bellingham and had brakes installed.  I guess he was determined to go fishing in BC on that trip!   

Now that's dedication!  Did he at least get a good number of fish for his efforts? 

[stormi]

I think this can pull your trailer...

Looks like it would go through damn near any terrain too....

[Red01]

I hadn't heard of BC having an issue with 1/2T's... but then most folks I know that tow anything into BC are using 3/4 or 1T's.

And with most 1/2t's I'd think you'd be nuts to try to tow in BC anyway.  The hills alone would make you pee your pants in some places.

I do know a guy who was turned around at the WA/BC border towing a boat with a 1/2T Suburban, but it was because his boat trailer didn't have brakes.  It was a light enough trailer to not require brakes in WA, but BC required brakes, so wouldn't let him across until his trailer had brakes, so he went into Bellingham and had brakes installed.  I guess he was determined to go fishing in BC on that trip!   

Now that's dedication!  Did he at least get a good number of fish for his efforts? 

It was awhile back and I don't remeber how his fish slaying efforts went, it's just the trailer brake story that stuck with me.

[stormi]

The "posted" tongue weight of our trailer is 1160#

That's a heavy tongue weight! Are you sure 1,160 is the tongue weight, or the trailer's empty weight?  If that is the tongue weight, you need to check what the tongue weight ratings are for whatever you want to pull this trailer with and the hitch itself. 

Wow,.. weird,.. I missed this post entirely!

The sticker inside the trailer clearly states:
Tongue Load Range: 1160 LBS (526KG)
GVWR: 11320 LBS (5135 KG)
Cargo Carrying Capacity: 7420.0 LBS (3366 KG)

Though I think the CCC is misleading, since that's the weight (optimistically) of the trailer dry.

Class III hitch systems typically are rated for 500-750 lbs of tongue weight.  A Class IV can go up to 1,700 lbs.  A IV uses the same size slide-in hitch adapter, but is solid square bar, whereas the III is hollow square tube.  Check the hitch structure to be sure it's rated for III and IV before going with a IV adapter.

The Diesel has a class 4 hitch.  Rated to 10K lbs.  I think we're going to be looking at a new hitch, based on the info we found this weekend. (more on that below)

In this case, I'm guessing, yes.  And since the diesel is heavier than the gas engine, you'd loose some payload with the diesel.  This is also common with 4X4's... they often have the same GVWR & GCWR as the 4X2, but since the extra drivetrain weighs more, you'll loose some payload.

K,.. so, then why do people buy diesel trucks for pulling, if it can't pull as much? (which is contrary to what I've always been told BTW)

I'm guessing Ford decided to make some kind of change to the diesel equipped trucks in the meantime.  Either a heavier duty rear axle, beefier suspension, a different/reinforced frame or some combination.  I know back in the 70's and early 80's Ford used different frames and cabs for 4x4 and 4x2 trucks, but GM & Dodge did not.

From what R_outsider has told me, the diesels of our era also had slightly beefier suspension, to accommodate that extra 500LB of engine...

I definitely get what you're saying though.

One set of numbers I haven't seen you post is the GCVW (Gross Combined Vehicle Weight) of these trucks.  I'd certainly hope the F250's are rated to  tow heavier trailers than the FISO's.

F250 GCVWR - 20K lbs (from memory, it's not posted on the sticker on the truck)
So,.. from what I can tell, the diesel can pull the F150 -and- the trailer without exceeding the GCVWR, but would be well past the payload ability of the truck.

F150 GCVWR - This is extrapolated - From what I can tell, the truck weighs 4600 LB (according to R_outsider) then the
F150 SC with the 5.4L engine can pull 8600LB, so a GCVWR of 13,200 LBs? (I found this on FOrd's site for a 2002.  Same body style)
Of course, we're going to go way over on our tongue weight and payload long before we reach this number.
And with the trailer, empty, but for water, we exceed this number.

Why not buy a clean used late model 1 ton gas engined truck - then you know you're covered! 

2 reasons...  neither is a complete deal breaker, just "concerns" to be addressed at this point.

1. most of the 1 tons here have been used as "patch trucks" i.e. crap kicked out of them. :) So I'd have to be -really - sure of what I was getting and that I wasn't going to end up with another money pit (like this diesel)

2. It's going to become my daily driver if we get rid of the Mustang to finance this.  That doesn't seem like a pleasant daily driver (especially since it's not like I can -ride- in this weather.  *sigh*)

[stormi]

OK,.. this weekend we went up to the Self Weigh scales to find out for sure what everything weighs.

Some surprising results too.

First,.. the stickers:
Trailer, reported:



Trailer G*WR Ratings


Truck G*WR ratings


Trailer was carrying
a full tank of water: 548#
all the stuff we carry for the comforts of home. :)
Honda 3000W genset (about 140#)
Some combination of all 4 of our bikes.




In the truck was:
R_outsider
stormi
our daughter
air compressor (approx 40#)

On the hitch receiver - one very heavy WD hitch

Combo 1:
All bikes, plus the above items
Front Axle: 1790KG - 3946.27 LB
Both Axles: 3950KG - 8708.249 LB
Rear Axle: 2160 KG - 4761.979 LB
Trailer Axles: 4280KG - 9435.774 LB

GCVW: 8230 KG - 18144.02 LB
Actual weight of trailer (incl tongue weight and axles) = 10427.85 LB

Combo 2:
Street bikes (both close to empty tanks IIRC), no dirt bikes, plus the above items, also missing r_outsider
Front Axle: 1760 KG - 3880.131 LB
Both Axles: 3950 KG - would likely be over with r_outsider in the truck ( @ 60 - 70 KG) 8708.249 - 8862.572 LB
Rear Axle: 2180 KG - 4806.072 LB
Trailer Axles: 4000 KG - 8818.48 LB

GCVW: 7950 (or 8010 - 8020) - 17526.73 - 17681.05 LB
Actual weight of trailer (incl tongue weight and axles) = 9964.88 LB

Combo 3:
"Empty" trailer, plus the above items
Front Axle: 1760 KG - 3880.131 LB
Both Axles: 4110 KG - 9060.988 LB
Rear Axle: 2260 KG - 4982.441 LB
Trailer Axles: 3500 KG - 7716.17 LB

GCVW: 7850 KG - 16777.158 LB
Actual weight of trailer (incl tongue weight and axles) = 9060.988 LB

Combo 4:
Dirtbikes (both tanks at around 1/2 full), no street bikes, plus the above items
Front Axle: 1780 KG - 3924.224 LB
Both Axles: 4060 KG - 8950.757 LB
Rear Axle: 2260KG - 4982.441 LB
Trailer Axles: 3740 KG - 8245.279 LB

GCVW: 7800 - 17196.04 LB
Actual weight of trailer (incl tongue weight and axles) = 9479.87 LB

Truck Only (no trailer)
Front Axle: 2010 KG - 4431.286 LB
Both Axles: 3500 KG - 7716.17 LB - This was a surprise. That's a fair bit higher than we'd expected. (We'd read 7440LB).  Must be all the bondo.
Rear Axle: 1490 KG - 3284.884 LB

OK,.. so what I get out of this is that every combination that we have, with the exception of "fully loaded" puts us overweight.

This is a tongue load issue, more than a weight capability issue?

[stormi]

$@%&*(&#^

And I just noticed the line on the Trailer Specs that says : "This trailer requires a Class 5 hitch on towing vehicle"

Having read all of this stuff, and weighed the truck and trailer, I'd sure like to take a strip off of Forest River and their dealer right now.

The trailer should weigh about:
7420 LB - Trailer
550 LB - Water
63 LB - Propane
26 LB - Marine Battery

For about 8059 before our "junk".  Pessimistically add 500# for that, and we're at: 8559

That's amazingly close to r_outsider's max trailer weight rating, and no way in hell he has a class 5 hitch on the truck.  We weren't even told that we needed one, nor would we have any reason to suspect it.

Of course we didn't expect the trailer to weigh more than 1000# more than it had reported.

No way in hell we're carrying 1500# of stuff other than the bikes, gear, genset, etc. 



Edit: OK,. apparently my math is bad today.  9060# with all contents, and the genset in the trailer.

So:
7420 LB - Trailer
550 LB - Water
63 LB - Propane
26 LB - Marine Battery
140 LB - Genset

8219 LB
Again, if we're carrying 500LB otherwise, I'd be amazed.

So about 8720 LB before a bike ever touches the trailer. That's considerably closer to the 9060 LB That we found to be the truth.    I still think they lied about the weight of the trailer though.

[Red01]

Yes, a 1T would be a bit of a rough ride as a daily driver, running around empty.  (Get a cheap econobox for daily stuff.)
What would be ideal in a used 1T, is to find one that was setup as an RV hauler and the owner has to get out of a nice clean low-mile (Km) one for whatever reason.  Might have better luck finding one in an area where there's more retired folks... like Vanc. BC, or the States.  If you're up for a road trip, I understand Arizona and other SW states are a goldmine of discount priced RV related stuff.  Seems the old folks tend to settle there and want to sell their rolling stock. Check with TruckTrader online and Craigslist of whatever cities you'd consider going to to pick up a pickup.