Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: lighter223 on March 19, 2009, 04:15:27 PM
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I now have a tool for getting to the a/f screw (had a ratcheting 90♣ screwdriver, got a flew extention).
I set the screws 2.5 turns out before I put the carbs back in. Too rich..., I think)
So I used the tool and turned each one 1 turn out(from seated) It's doing the same thing though....
There is white smoke coming out of the exhaust that is, for as far as I know, unspent fuel.
It does not rev up past 5k and Idling is rough if it does die
I do have a video:
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/lighter223/?action=view¤t=MOV00506.flv
I ran the seafoam through it after I cleaned the carbs.
The carbs need not be snyched
Anyone else have something like this or just know about it...
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K... backed the a/f screws on all carbs out to 3 turns.
Works a lot better... I guess that the white smoke out exhaust was and wasnt a rich mixture.
The bike gets up to redline on it's own now :clap: but i still have an abundance of white smoke.... that coupled with the fact that the #1 cylinder's exhaust is not at all as hot as 3 & 4 makes me think that 1 isn't firing..
People says check the plugs. Some say check for spark. I just had the plugs cleaned(like new) and will probably end up buying new ones in a couple of months (no spare money right now), so I want to check for a spark.
I am confident in my ability to check under instruction but not comfortable without. So someone tell me that it's safe to try to start an engine with a spark plug out of its socket and I'll be fiine...
Thanks.
also #2 doesnt really feel as hot as 3 or 4.
i am able to hold on to 1 for a short while, 3 and 4 I can barely touch and #2 I can hold for like 3 seconds.
maybe something, maybe nothing
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You could start it with a plug out, but if all you're doing is checking for spark health, just cranking it over ought to be enough.
You could also swap leads between 2 & 3 to see if 2 gets as warm as 3 did and if 3 cools down to 2. That would tell if you have a lead that's not working as well as it should. Likewise, you can swap 1 & 4 to check that pair.
Have you checked the valve adjustment?
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No I havent checked the valves. didnt want to get into that just yet... everything was fine before this winter and I didnt ride it through winter and I would assume that the valves woud be where I left them... alone. :beers:
as far as switching leads... you are sure about the switching 1 & 4 and 2&3 for some reason i thought it was every other one... 1&3 and 2&4 but I really dont know.
And I just wanted to be sure it was safe to crank with a sprk plug out
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Yes, I'm sure the 1/4 & 2/3 pairs run off the same coil... but feel free to raise the tank and see for yourself. :bandit:
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Ok I checked. Only questioned it because I mis-looked at the wires I thought I saw 4 going to 3 anyway..
I just warmed it up for 2-3 minutes with full choke....
1&3 are hot 2&4 are cold.
I havent checked sparks yet
will do now...
One coilpack doesnt go half bad does it meaning cyl 2 is goo but 3 is not?
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So I tried checking the spark and either I am doing something wrong or something is seriously wrong....
Am I supposed to ground the plug as well while it is out of the engine.
I tried to check #2 adn got no spark. tried the #2 plug on the #1 wire, nothing.. pulled #1 plug and tried it on the # 1 wire and got nothing (thhis is where I got worried)
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Plug threads need to be touching ground when cranking.... be careful you don't become part of the circuit... :stickpoke: :rofl: :rofl:
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Am I supposed to ground the plug as well while it is out of the engine.
Yup...the spark needs to arc across the plug gap, into the plug body, which is normally in contact with the cylinder to complete the circuit. So, yes, you MUST have the plug thread or hex in contact with the cylinder head, or another good ground.
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I just didnt want to short it kk thanks will check in an hour or so
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One coilpack doesnt go half bad does it meaning cyl 2 is goo but 3 is not?
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it's one coil with two outputs. You could have one lead from each going bad. If that's the case, it would be best to replace them all because the others aren't gonna be far behind.
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So I checked one and two again yesterday before I stepped out for te day, and I got sparks from both, although on the #2 plug the spark was further down from the tip of the electrode, while #1 was at the tip. The other od thing was that I have NGK dual prongs and the spark was only going to one prong on both plugs... shouldnt I get 2 sparks if they're evenly gapped? Is that a sign of a bad plug maybe...
anyone know where I can get ngk's for cheap. I want to to to a single prong but dont really have money for 9 bucks a plug. But if I need them I will get them
Will check 3&4 in an hour and get back with info. thanks
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The other od thing was that I have NGK dual prongs and the spark was only going to one prong on both plugs... shouldnt I get 2 sparks if they're evenly gapped? Is that a sign of a bad plug maybe
Nope... only one spark per customer.
If I'm not mistaken, the spark will take the path of least resistance... meaning it will go to whichever prong is closer.
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ah ok.. I assumed that with two prongs you get two weaker sparks rather than one strong spark one might get with one prong....
Anyway, just got done testing #3&4 and they have spark, so all plugs and wires are functioning properly. now I dont know whats wrong :banghead:.
So some pipes are cold... but I am getting spark on all plugs, though it seems I am having raw fuel coming out of the exhaust( I found the exchaust pipe is very wet and the exhaust itself is very gassy...
Mind you that the bike was running damn fine before winter... did nothing all winter and now I have problems...
Any other ideas...
Fuel is getting in all cylinders because plugs are a bit wet...
Unspent fuel is definitely leaving the cylinders so that leads me to believe that the valves are opening and closing properly.
I have tried with a/f screws all the way in and up to three turns out... runs the same no matter what...
#2 are the ones that are definitely NOT firing - solve this problem and I believe the bike will work...
NEW BUT OLD SYMPTOM.... There is a kind of hiccough coming from the choke valve on each carb (if you engage choke, a brass something is pulled simultaneously from each carb) as well as out of the airbox.
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Clean (Carbs and petcock)
Is petcock leaking?
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carbs have been cleaned and petcock is not leaking...
I have noticed the fact that if you leave petcock on PRIME that fuel will sometime mix with the oil in the crankcase... Is tthat correct?
If it is would that prevent the engine from running correct. to me it wouldnt. later on while it is running there wouldnt be the properties of the oil to help keep the engine alive.
But would the fumes deprive the engine of oxygen and would it do anything to the rings for the cylinders that would make a cylinder lose compression.
I dont think that I have lost compression but I know I have lost combustion.
The cylinder heads on each cylinder are hot but I think that may be the conduction of heat from the supposed working cylinders because the pipes are still cold. but maybe something is blocking the pipes.. like a mouse or something but wouldnt the pressure be building up behind it and at least push it into the muffler. and I dont smell any thing funky and there is still unspent gas comng out... hmmm. just musing. I really dont know.
In a few weeks I will be back in CA and will be able to take the heads off and get to the valves and redo the carbs maybe I will get a jet kit and maybe I'll saok the entire assembly...
I have read about the different kits here on the forums.. anyone have any experience in particular with a CA 01B6.
Will look in the for sale area for a cheap kit and maybe someone has one for cheap that reads this...
Also is there a stage 2 or is it just stock and stage 1?
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carbs have been cleaned and petcock is not leaking...
That is a good thing...
I have noticed the fact that if you leave petcock on PRIME that fuel will sometime mix with the oil in the crankcase... Is tthat correct?
Yes... in the prime position fuel can leak past the floats although not always.
In a few weeks I will be back in CA and will be able to take the heads off and get to the valves and redo the carbs maybe I will get a jet kit and maybe I'll saok the entire assembly...
I would pass on the jet kit until you get the bike running in stock form. No sense creating more problems without fixing the ones you have now.
I have read about the different kits here on the forums..
...Also is there a stage 2 or is it just stock and stage 1?
Best results are with Holeshot, Factory Pro or Ivan's based on other users.... can't comment specifically on the CA models.
Other than "stock" set ups there are Stage 1, 2 and 3. When it's time I'd shoot for the Stage 1 kit on a B6.
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Would fuel in the crankcase cause running problems in the very very short run, I mean an engine should start and run even if it had no oil in it.
I would pass on the jet kit until you get the bike running in stock form. No sense creating more problems without fixing the ones you have now.
The kit would come after I have taken off the valve covers and checked them and replaced the plugs... but I would do it after I got back to CA because I am in MI and of course after I got the bike running... There are things I just cant do here... NO garage and no time...
Other than "stock" set ups there are Stage 1, 2 and 3. When it's time I'd shoot for the Stage 1 kit on a B6.
What would a stage 2 or 3 do for a 600
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If the only mods to the bike are a jet kit and exhaust, the only advantages a Stage 2 or 3 will get you is a little less weight from loosing the airbox and an easier time with maintenance. Sadly, no power gains with the the higher stages on a stock B6.
If your 600 is a 1G, you'll change the looks a little with the airbox gone and riding in heavy rain can cause some water to get sucked in which will lower performance and possibly make it miss/cut out (depending on how heavy the downpour is. The 2G hides the pods behind the sidecovers, so rain doesn't bother it until you feel like you should be wearing a snorkel as part of your riding gear. Of course, if you modify or remove the 2G's sidecovers, you will experience similar negatives to the 1G.
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ok ok all good info... what if I put that gsxr 750 and its carbs in there would where be any advantages of going higher than stage 1?
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Hell yeah, butt it has its down falls, :trustme:
Did the stage 3 on the REX, hell yeah yeha, giddyup yippykiaa M/F. :yikes:
But don't park it where it may get wet, motor don't like to start with a gut full of H2O :annoy:
And riding it in the rain is even more fun :banghead:
Think long and hard before going the stage 3 route. :motorsmile:
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Well I am going back to sunny SOCAL and it's raining now but not for summer :thumb: adn I dont ride when it rains... I have a car for that....
Stage 3 for a 750 jixxer eh... any other shortcomings other than the wetness?
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"when it rains" 4-6 day/year?? I have in whole season 55-60 days when it not rains. :banghead:
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well I missed out on a whole season of riding due to me being in Northern MI. And I got a screwed up bike because of it. :headscratch: and I dont know why...
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are you still in Michigan ? I could look at it if you are in the south east of Mi. Mark
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No I am up in traverse. But thanks for the offer I am leaving in about 4 days and then I will be in CA where I can take apart the engine....
If I were staying I would pay for you to come up here maybe..
And sorry all I have been gettting ready to move and have not had alot of extra time..
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I now have a tool for getting to the a/f screw (had a ratcheting 90♣ screwdriver, got a flew extention).
I set the screws 2.5 turns out before I put the carbs back in. Too rich..., I think)
So I used the tool and turned each one 1 turn out(from seated) It's doing the same thing though....
There is white smoke coming out of the exhaust that is, for as far as I know, unspent fuel.
It does not rev up past 5k and Idling is rough if it does die
I do have a video:
http://s567.photobucket.com/albums/ss116/lighter223/?action=view¤t=MOV00506.flv
I ran the seafoam through it after I cleaned the carbs.
The carbs need not be snyched
Anyone else have something like this or just know about it...
Did you check ALL the jets against the shop manual to see if they are the correct ones? What you said about the one idle screw being way out sounds to me like the carbs were fiddled and diddled with at some time. The video sound track sounds like the engine isn't doing so well at idle now either (not smooth).
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Sorry, I have just gotten done with an long and extensive move to CA so I havent been able to get on here....
Anyway... got to warmer weather and nothing has changed. Will be changing oil and filter because I know there is gas in there. I will be taking off the head cover to clean everywhere.
But right now I need help adjusting the floats. Is there anyone out there to walk me through it?
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Check out the Stage 1 Jet Kit install PDF (Members Section Downloads) and there's a good picture of the process buried within.
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OK ok thanks for that.. just what I needed.
Now I have another question..
Has anybody had any good luck putting Seafoam in your oil... I ask because I was going over "oild flushes" and most say no transmissions(no motos) and what about the other addditives in moto oil for the clutch. Is there anything that any of you have used to clean out sludge or debris from the crankcase?
I want to do it even if it doesnt have to be done... I would much rather take off the oil pan an clean by hand but its not in the deck of cards right now...
thanks,
anthony :bandit:
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If you've had gas in your oil recently, that probably cleaned it up for you already.
If you change your oil as recommended by the book (or better), you shouldn't have to worry about sludge buildup.
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That makes damn god sense... and here i thought gas in the oil was only a negative thing... :duh:
Well the oil has now been changed all plugs and wires are sparking like champs (thank God there not though). The carbs have been cleaned, floats adjusted, and put back on with a/f screws at 2.5 turns out from lightly seated... Again.
So heres the kicker... Why the F*** has #2 cylinder started firing and the #1 cylinder stopped firing. What could have moved....
EVERYTHING went back to its own respective carb and cylinder.. The sparkplugs are in the same spot and I have even tried switching....
I do not know what the problem of a cylinder NOT firing is following...
Anyone have any ideas why the misfiring cylinder would jump around... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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OK ok thanks for that.. just what I needed.
Now I have another question..
Has anybody had any good luck putting Seafoam in your oil... I ask because I was going over "oild flushes" and most say no transmissions(no motos) and what about the other addditives in moto oil for the clutch. Is there anything that any of you have used to clean out sludge or debris from the crankcase?
I want to do it even if it doesnt have to be done... I would much rather take off the oil pan an clean by hand but its not in the deck of cards right now...
thanks,
anthony :bandit:
Hey, Anthony!
If you have debris in your oil, it's best to find out what parts of your engine are broken or breaking up. Cleaning out bits and pieces isn't going to help you much except maybe help identify what parts are shedding the pieces. You must tear down the engine until you find the problem, or your engine isn't going to run for long.
Sea Foam is designed to stabilize the "gasahol" in your tank when it sits unused for months (it prevents gelling of the gasahol by making the fuel less acidic). Theoretically, it works better on Gasahol than "Stabil" does. Stabil works very well on pure gasoline, but alcohol in gasoline is an especially corrosive mixture because alcohol and water stick together tightly. It's the water that then rusts ferrous engine parts.
If you have gasoline in your oil, that's another story. It means that both your petcock and at least one carb's float valve are leaking and gas is flowing directly into your crankcase past the piston(s). Best way to detect gas in your oil is to sniff the dipstick. There should be NO gasoline odor. Also keep an eye on the oil level. Suzuki Bandits have a sight glass through which you can not only check oil level with the bike on the centerstand, but also see if the oil level is dropping or RISING. Gasoline flowing into the crankcase will cause the oil level to rise and become more pale in color. First fix the fuel leak(s), then change the oil and the filter.
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The gasoline in the oil was due to the valve left on prime all winter and it all ended up in the crankcase... so that is a problem solved... before winter I didnt know what the difference between prime and on was... I actually thought that pri meant primary like there was a big arrow with flashing lights saying "use this first, it's the primary fuel and then use res(erve) for when your out of your primary fuel...
But what the hell did I know...
Anyway what I do need is a new fuel cock because I snapped off the lever and the salvage yards are telling me $75 and I am telling them to F*** off. I am hoping to get a discount LOL (kidding)
Anyway tomorrow I will be completeing the synch because the past few days I havent had time... If it doesnt work you will all know...
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The gasoline in the oil was due to the valve left on prime all winter and it all ended up in the crankcase... so that is a problem solved... before winter I didnt know what the difference between prime and on was... I actually thought that pri meant primary like there was a big arrow with flashing lights saying "use this first, it's the primary fuel and then use res(erve) for when your out of your primary fuel...
But what the hell did I know...
Anyway what I do need is a new fuel cock because I snapped off the lever and the salvage yards are telling me $75 and I am telling them to F*** off. I am hoping to get a discount LOL (kidding)
Anyway tomorrow I will be completeing the synch because the past few days I havent had time... If it doesnt work you will all know...
Been there, done that with petcocks. So, the Stealer wants $75? First ask the Stealer if there's a rebuild kit for your petcock. That ought to be a lot more reasonable. If he says "no", try the online M/C junkyards instead. Require a guarantee that the replacement they send you won't leak. They usually don't mind replacing defective parts, but it can be a hassle if you get more than two bad replacements in a row.
A third trick is to buy a "Pingel" petcock. These pass more gas (Ooh, I made a funny!) than the stock unit, so you won't starve the engine under high demand for fuel, but Pingels don't shut off automatically since they have no vacuum diaphragm. If you install the Pingel valve, don't forget to plug the vacuum line that went to the stock valve.
You'll also need to always shut the valve off manually after you turn off the ignition, or you'll quickly discover whether or not you have a leaky float valve or two (GASOIL!).
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I looked at the pingel site and I saw some with a vacuum port... is there nothing for the bandit... and does any one know the tube diameters for a 2001 b6 so I can get an accurate price...?
the online junkyards are the ones who want 75 the dealers and ronayers want 90....
as far as rebuild... I would rather get a pingel then fix this... I have changed thevalve to ON so i am fine for the man time but would like more gas flow but Ihave a bad memory and would like the vacuum feature...
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I looked at the pingel site and I saw some with a vacuum port... is there nothing for the bandit... and does any one know the tube diameters for a 2001 b6 so I can get an accurate price...?
the online junkyards are the ones who want 75 the dealers and ronayers want 90....
as far as rebuild... I would rather get a pingel then fix this... I have changed thevalve to ON so i am fine for the man time but would like more gas flow but Ihave a bad memory and would like the vacuum feature...
I sent a request to Pingel for information about which of their fuel control valves can replace the OEM item on the 1200 and 1250 Bandits. I immediately recived an automated reply as follows:
Your message :- "Fuel Valves to fit Suzuki Bandit 1200 and 1250" on Mon, 4 May 2009 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) has been received.
Now we wait.
Herb
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I looked at the pingel site and I saw some with a vacuum port... is there nothing for the bandit... and does any one know the tube diameters for a 2001 b6 so I can get an accurate price...?
the online junkyards are the ones who want 75 the dealers and ronayers want 90....
as far as rebuild... I would rather get a pingel then fix this... I have changed thevalve to ON so i am fine for the man time but would like more gas flow but Ihave a bad memory and would like the vacuum feature...
OK, I saw the Pingel valve with the vacuum shutoff on their site as well, so I sent an e-mail to them asking for more info. Also found the following post (250 & 400 Bandit group) regarding installation:
tomacGTi
Petcock options.. « Reply #3 on: January 18, 2007, 12:04:53 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Just did the Pingel and installed it. Piece of cake.
Besides the obvious clearancing of the fuel inlet, installation was a snap. No pictures as of yet as the tank is in the basement and the bike is outside under a cover for the winter but really no real rocket science involved.
If you plan on the Pingel route, I can advise you to use a Dremel tool and a carbide bit and use a shop-vac near the tool to catch the cast-off material. This will get 99% of the stuff flying off from settling inside of the tank.
Also, test fit the valve to the adapter plate beforehand to make sure the valve is clocked correctly. If not, when you install the plate onto the tank and the valve onto the plate, it can face the wrong direction. Since it is a pipe-thread fitting, it will tighten and not rotate further. The good folks at Pingel include a small packet of hylomar to seal everything together. You'll also need some teflon tape for the valve threads.
You can also pre-assemble everything but make sure you have a ball-ended 5mm to tighten the fittings down onto the tank.
Here's what you would need to order from Pingel if you went the same route as I:
-6210 Valve
-1602c Adapter plate
If you choose to have reserve: 6211
-Randy
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Thanks guys for going ahead and checking with them...
I got my bike to actuall go above 10... It actually got up as fast as I could go... but there is a lot of lag in the low end....
I asked this before but I wanted to know how to remove the air inlet...
When to look at the opening of the carb (cant remember if its is on engine or airbox side...) there are to brass holes.. one Is pressed in there and the other s removable and there ARE ONLY TWO... and you can see them whn the carbs are off the bike but still fully assmbled... I hope you guys know what I am talking about...
THe book says remove to clean but I dont see a way to...
anyone know
And I will wait for your replies from pingel
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Good God man!
Those "Brass Holes" are the Jets! May I respectfully request that you either learn a whole lot about Mikuni Carbs quickly, or fuggeddaboudit and go to a carb pro. :duh:
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dude not talking about carbs... the flow valve from the tank is the topic here