Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Airmotive on August 24, 2005, 12:00:48 AM
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have a lookie:
http://www.powerchutes.com/manometer.asp
The man makes a good point: Who cares how much vacuum each carb is pulling as long as you can get it equal to its neighbor.
Anyone tried it?
(Regardless, I'm gonne give it a shot. I keep ya posted.)
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I've seen that before. The only problem I would have with it, is its only going to be able to sync two carbs at a time. That makes the process harder to get all carbs sync'ed properly. In theory, you could still sync your 1 to 2, then 3 to 4 and then sync your 2 to 3. However, I find it handy being able to see the relative pressure of all gauges at once, because they tend to creep a little throughout the sync process.
Then again, the "luxury" of looking at all gauges at once is quite a bit more expensive than the home build device.
I would go for it and let us know how it works. Ever better, if you could sync it with your home built tool first, and then verify your sync'ing with someones real gauge setup.
At the same time, I have to admit, I am using my Morgan Carbtune more than I ever thought I would. Between my bandito and my old honda CB, it gets put to a lot of use. So if you get some spare $$, it might be worth it to get the real thing.
Good luck!
jesse
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You can just make two EXACTLY the same.
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Since the manual specifies synchronizing the 1 to 2, then the 3 to 4, then the 2 to 3, I thought this little thing would be ideal for the job. I found it curious that the inventor specifies using oil in the tubes. Seems to me water would be better. It’s more dense, less viscous, less messy, safer if ingested by the carbs or spilled on the engine.
Regardless, this looks like my weekend project. I'm getting ready for the Dallas-Manitoulin (Canada)-Dallas ride in mid-September. This is the one little routine maintenance project I've been neglecting...mainly out of sheer stingyness.
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Well, this thing actually works!
Granted, it's not pretty...but pretty was never a goal.
1/2" (outside diameter) clear rubber tube...about 20-25 feet. Extra length won't hurt, as long as your water is in the middle of the tube. I.E. one carb isn't pulling through a longer lenghts of tube than the other carb.
I used my garage door track to suspend the tube.
As you can (hopefully) see in the photos, the water level gives a clear indication of pressure difference (Delta P). Since you're only syncing the carbs to each other, the delta P is all you need. Since I am using water as my fluid, a small delta P results in a large level change....when syncing the #3 and #4 carbs, the delta P was great enough to suck the water right out of my tube! No worries. I simply did some blind adjustments and hooked everyting back up and tried again. (That's the main reason I used water in stead of oil. Such a small amount of water won't harm anything.)
The biggest hassle was trying to hook up a remote fuel source. As you can see, I found it easier to simply leave the gas tank hooked up and work around it. (This is MUCH easier if the tank is nearly empty.)
Total cost...less than a buck.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/airmotive/Bandit/CarbSync1.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/airmotive/Bandit/CarbSync2.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b210/airmotive/Bandit/CarbSync3.jpg)
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I forgot to mention in the above post...
I used a bungy chord to keep the bottom of the tubing pulled tight. (see first photo) Otherwise, it tends to curl up and generally make a nuisance of itself.
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I have read several recurring threads on carb syncing, and someone recently asked me if I "had done it yet"...I guess all the other boys have, (or at least claim they have, with that loose carb who hangs out behind the bleachers).
So, briefly, what they heck is it, and when would you need to do it? No need to give a full lesson in the steps at this point, just trying to see why it's one this site's most recurring themes.
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Basically...
You have four carbs, each feeding its own cylinder.
You want each cylinder to produce 1/4 of the engine's total power.
If your carbs are poorly synchronized, one or more cylinders may be producing more (or less) than its fair share of the engine's power.
Syncing the carbs is simply the way you set all the carbs equal to each other. Poorly synced carbs can hurt fuel milage, performance and (Mostly) idle and off-idle throttle response.
Blue Skies,
JJ
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Well, that's clear enough, thanks!
I guess they just get off-balance over time as a natural occurance/wear etc.
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I built the simple yard-stick carb balancer as described on several sites. Used jack-oil in the tube.
I can tell you that none of the 4 carbs on my wife's 600 were in synch with each other. 1&2 were way out, as were 3&4 to each other and to 1&2. The result afterward was a much smoother engine in the 5-6K rpm range. Much of the vibration of the motor disappeared and the throttle response was better.
You certainly don;t need a 4-tube unit to do this. In fact, it would be cumbersome having four tubes at the same time. Synch-ing 1&2, 3&4 and then 3/4 to 1/2 is fool-proof, and very accurate if you take the time to ensure the oil levels are precisely level.
I imagine the only thing you MUST NOT DO is start the bike with only one end of the tubing connected, otherwise you'll pull the oil into the carb...not the end of the world, but smokey and a PITA (luckily I didn't find out).
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O.k, I have to ask, I like the tool, made one today at work to show up the outboard techs. $800 snap on set he had to have. Now for my question. My O-B tech. says all multi carbs systems have a base carb? So I got out the trusty clymer manual and it read #4 is the base carb and to adjust 1,2,3 to #4, but everyone says 1 to 2 - 3 to 4 then 2 to 3 ? I understand this is a comparison of vacuum, why not start with #4 to 3?
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There's fifty ways to get all the carbs equal. The best way is the easiest way.
The Bandit has an adjustment screw specifically designed to adjust the 1-2 to the 3-4. I follow that route simply because that's what the manual specifies. There's likely be some obscure engineering reasons behind that process. (Why would the carb manufacturer design in the added parts and expense of the 1-2 to 3-4 adjustment screw for absolutely no reason?)
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(Why would the carb manufacturer design in the added parts and expense of the 1-2 to 3-4 adjustment screw for absolutely no reason?)
OK don`t get upset, I know there is more than one way to do this. Looking at the Clyer manual they state #4 carb has no adjustment. There are only three synchronization screw that adjust the # 1,2,3. My manual says nothing about adjusting 1-2 to 3-4. Please don`t think I`m trying to be a smart ass. I`m simply stating what the manual says I have a Clyer manual #M353 96-03 GSF 1200 page 81-82. I just what to make sure I do it right and I understand what I`m doing.
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Oh no...not at all. I'm sorry my reply came across as sounding upset.
By saying "the best way is the easiest way", I really mean just that...whatever is the easiest way for you.
I'm using the Haynes manual, and it mentions nothing about the #4 carb being different. By the way, is yours a 1st gen or 2nd gen bike?
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Picked up a 20' roll of 1/4" od clear tube, $1.85 dabbed a hi-lighter marker in a oz or two of water, sucked some in the tube (that way it won't have the bubbles) taped it to a yard stick wedged on my bike, after removing the tank and rigged a fire hazard of a fuel source. Man were my carbs way out!!! had to crimp the hose, and adj the sync screw to stop my engine from running on hydro! 3&4/1&2 then just plugged in 2&3 for the last adj with center screw. DON'T forget the cooling fan cause this can take a few!! What a diff and i thought it was running great. Set my mixture screws to 2 turns out and its smoother than its ever been. Carb sync is the first thing the zuki stealer wants to do! $85 bucks thank you. And i would have thought it was a good investment after these results. If you can change spark plugs! and with the help you get here GO FOR IT!!! The small tubing and water with color (i didn't have food color!) "hi-lighter looks hi tech though!" is very touchy but when you get em close that is close enough!! DO IT or GET TOGETHER and DO IT use it as an excuse to have a meeting/ride after! Here is a link to a pic if anyone wants tooo!
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3285/picture0681og2iv23xy.jpg
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(Why would the carb manufacturer design in the added parts and expense of the 1-2 to 3-4 adjustment screw for absolutely no reason?)
OK don`t get upset, I know there is more than one way to do this. Looking at the Clyer manual they state #4 carb has no adjustment. There are only three synchronization screw that adjust the # 1,2,3. My manual says nothing about adjusting 1-2 to 3-4. Please don`t think I`m trying to be a smart ass. I`m simply stating what the manual says I have a Clyer manual #M353 96-03 GSF 1200 page 81-82. I just what to make sure I do it right and I understand what I`m doing.
Hey fellow Bandit owner! Just wanted to add my $0.02 worth! the middle screw sincs 1&2 to 3&4! Think of it just allowing the linkage next to it to be adj more or less. My manual says nothing about #4 being non adjustable! Is the 2nd gen diff? The adjustments just allow the linkage next door to be opened or closed, two outer ones adj two carbs center adj all 4. 2nd GEN Bandits with the TPS on #4 carb of course will need to be done a bit diff. 1,2,3 to 4.
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By the way, is yours a 1st gen or 2nd gen bike?
My bike is a G2 1200. I notice your blike is a G2 600? I wonder if there is a differences between the two? Either way, I think it all comes out the same. I`m going to do mine one night this week. Need to find a couple mpg. I think I`ll make another gauge and hook all four at one time. :btw: I didn`t think you were coming across upset. I was actually trying to steer it away from becoming a pissing contest. :beers: thanks for posting some good info, I learned something from it.
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Hello all!! A big thanks to Airmotive for getting this started!!! (PO'mans sinc tool) Hey if this hasn't been done on your bike, it needs too!! My 98 B12 1gen had very little vibration compared to what some say their B12 has! And i thought it was running DARN good! Got over 42+ MPG, makes driver's of bad As! VIPER's know who's in charge! This sinc tool cost $1.85 it's easy to use and made this bike run better than its ever has!! Idles super!!! You can hear each cyl fire! (Race core can) I figured ok better idle that's great!!! But on my 22+mile ride to my "stinking, suck as! stupid, dirty! with a dik head boss!!!" Oh sorry lost it for a! anyway ALL I CAN SAY IS WOW!!! SMOOTHER @ ALL SPEEDS BIG DIFF!! IF YOUR BIKE HAS A VIBRATION PROB THIS IS FOR YOU!!! My bike is almost like riding my bud's GEEEEZER GLIDE!!! SIMPLE TO DO BUT IF YOU CAN"T? PAY TO HAVE IT DONE!!! :motorsmile: If your interested here is a pic! I'll walk you through it if you want but all the info U need is rite here on this forum! http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3285/picture0681og2iv23xy.jpg
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(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a179/jtuttle/Sample_0.jpg)
I had to post this, I know at is a bit blurry, But it can still be read. I`m only posting this because, I did not want anyone to think I was making it up. I realize the other way works and it works fine. I think this is why alot of mechanics use four gauges? :motorsmile:
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Sorry to jump in here so late, but I'm primed and ready to do this. As my bike has ~7k miles on it, the manual recommends it as well. So far this is what I've done:
1. Added the D&D exhaust
2. Added the K&N air filter
3. Shimmed each carb (one washer each)
4. Drilled out the cover for the a/f mix screw.
5. Set each a/f screw to 2.5 turns out.
6. built a "manometer"
Now here is where I'm stuck. I almost hate to admit it, but where to I attach the pvc tubing to the carbs? And what screw do I turn to adjust them?
Oh carburetor gods, please decend upon my ignorance like rain on a dry field so that I may bear the fruit of increased horsepower and better gas mileage!
Thanks,
Smitty
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Ok. I found the sync screws in the Clymer manual, but the only thing about connecting my manometer to the carbs is thus:
"8. Connect the vacuum guage set to the vacuum fittings following the manufacturer's instructions."
.......OOOOOOH I see it. Its under the vacuum port cap!!!! It's that little black rubber doohicky that sticks up right on top of the carb!
Smitty
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Yup, it's the same port used on the #4 carb to operated the fuel petcock.
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Well, I tried it. Made my manometer, hooked up the tubes to the vacuum port on the #4 carb, and the other on the #3 carb, and fired up the bike. Immediately, all the water in the tube got sucked into the carb. I think this means that the carbs are seriously out of sync. I tried turning the adj. screw , refilling my manometer, and starting up the bike. Same thing happens. I did this so many times, I started getting a headache from the carbon monoxide fumes.
I'm stumped. I tried turning all the adj screws to get a nice idle sound (~1500 rpm). I buttoned it all up and rode the bike around the neighborhood. It sucked. Flat spots on the throttle, cutting off, backfiring, hesitation. It seems like I've done nothing but bad to this bike. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and take it to the "stealer".
Smitty
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Well, I tried it. Made my manometer, hooked up the tubes to the vacuum port on the #4 carb, and the other on the #3 carb, and fired up the bike. Immediately, all the water in the tube got sucked into the carb. I think this means that the carbs are seriously out of sync. I tried turning the adj. screw , refilling my manometer, and starting up the bike. Same thing happens. I did this so many times, I started getting a headache from the carbon monoxide fumes.
I'm stumped. I tried turning all the adj screws to get a nice idle sound (~1500 rpm). I buttoned it all up and rode the bike around the neighborhood. It sucked. Flat spots on the throttle, cutting off, backfiring, hesitation. It seems like I've done nothing but bad to this bike. I'm almost ready to throw in the towel and take it to the "stealer".
Smitty
Hey don't do that! your so close! shoot me a PM if you need help? or we can post! I think, you don't realize how touchy the 1/4" hose is! very! when this gets close (1" of ea other, bouncy) its good! THE ADJ SCREWS ARE ALSO VERY TOUCHY! JUST THE SCREW DRIVER PUSH ON THEM WILL MAKE A DIFF!! I would crimp one hose, or use pliers to pinch off the vacuum, on start up, open and close, just to see where you are! mark one tube with black marker so you know which one is sucking the most! Its hard to explain which carb will be effected by turning screw in or out, so go either way to achieve what you need, to get the water to meet! A very slight turn will make a big diff!!!! Did you see the lousy pic of my riggins? I found that using a remote fuel source was a bunch easier, (pop bottle with a tapered tip screwed on it) fit rite in the fuel supply hose. Your vacuum hose set up sounds complicated! If you use the tank, putting it to prime will let the fuel flow, with no vacuum applied. ALSO HAVE A FAN BLOWING ON BIKE, WITH OPEN VENTILATION IS A MUST!!! DON'T FORGET THE FIRE EXTINGUISHER that works!!! http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3285/picture0681og2iv23xy.jpg If your bike drank the water rite away, plugged into #3&4 you will be very pleased with the outcome!!!
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My setup was similar to Daytona's. Except, I propped my tank up between the legs of a 6' ladder (kinda risky, actually). I had some pvc tubing that I used to extend the vacuum line from the gas tank to the vacuum port on the 4th carb (just kinda stuck it in the black tube). Then I pulled the breather hose off the tank and reconnected it to the petcock and then stuck ink pen barrel in the far end and then connected that end to the fuel line that goes into the carbs. Since the ink pen barrel is clear, I see when gas was being pulled to the carbs.
This allowed me to use the gas tank, and have some room to stick a screw driver down between the carbs.
Every time I give this stuff a little thought, it makes elementary sense. The carb adjustment screws are just some screws that sit on top of a spring that when uncompressed or uncompressed, allows more or less gas to be sent to the carbs. More or less gas to a carb allows the carb to do "more or less" work in comparison to the other carbs.
I also think I screwed up the throttle cable adjustment screw. I noticed on my ride last night that, I would have to forcibly roll off the throttle. The cable should be doing this for me.
Smitty
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For the throttle return problem, it's not the cable that's supposed to return it for you, it's spring tension. There's two cables so you can manually close the throttle when the springs can't do it. I suspect there's some binding in your throttle cable routing that's too much for the springs to overcome.
As for the manometer issue, if you can fit a pair of matching restrictors in the hoses, that may help you get further. They're also good for stabilizing some of the inherant jumpiness in unrestricted lines.
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I measure success wherever I can find it.
Here's what I did. I pulled the bike apart, found that the return throttle cable nut was almost off. I actually had to take the top off carb 3, to tighten the nut. I found that it was an easy adjustment screw and lock nut under the throttle grip. After fixing the link, the throttle snaps back like stock.
Then I pulled the KN airfilter out, buttoned it up and rode it. Now the success part. It didn't cut off, no flat spots and no hesitation. The exhaust was loud, and throttle response was even, but I wouldn't exactly call the ride impressive. I was crusing around 30 - 40 mph in 2nd gear and the tach was showing 5-7k. Isn't this a little too high? What should I do now?
Smitty
PS. I'll probably sync the carbs tomorrow
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Provided you don't alter gearing with different sprockets, the rpm you turn in a certain gear for a certain road speed will always be the same in a manual transmission unless the clutch or the rear tire is slipping. Tuning will make a difference in smoothness, economy and how quickly it responds to throttle input.
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I measure success wherever I can find it.
Here's what I did. I pulled the bike apart, found that the return throttle cable nut was almost off. I actually had to take the top off carb 3, to tighten the nut. I found that it was an easy adjustment screw and lock nut under the throttle grip. After fixing the link, the throttle snaps back like stock.
Then I pulled the KN airfilter out, buttoned it up and rode it. Now the success part. It didn't cut off, no flat spots and no hesitation. The exhaust was loud, and throttle response was even, but I wouldn't exactly call the ride impressive. I was crusing around 30 - 40 mph in 2nd gear and the tach was showing 5-7k. Isn't this a little too high? What should I do now?
Smitty
PS. I'll probably sync the carbs tomorrow
Hey nothing you have put on this post you have done should make the rpm's change!! One thing i know you don't want too do is too many things at once! If a problem arises, you don't know which thing is wrong!! Did it run fine before the sinc escapade? or after the K&N filter was installed? 7K on a 96 B6! Its not broke in yet! Don't do any big adjustment changes until you get it running as good as it was before you started this! or like my PC it will need a new Hard drive!!!! :duh:
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Did it run fine before the sinc escapade? or after the K&N filter was installed? 7K on a 96 B6! Its not broke in yet! Don't do any big adjustment changes until you get it running as good as it was before you started this! or like my PC it will need a new Hard drive!!!! :duh:[/quote]
Yep. It was running fine. Things got hairy after I added the air filter, exhaust, shims, and change in the a/f mix. Hmm...I guess that's alot..
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Did it run fine before the sinc escapade? or after the K&N filter was installed? 7K on a 96 B6! Its not broke in yet! Don't do any big adjustment changes until you get it running as good as it was before you started this! or like my PC it will need a new Hard drive!!!! :duh:
Yep. It was running fine. Things got hairy after I added the air filter, exhaust, shims, and change in the a/f mix. Hmm...I guess that's alot
B6 is touchy about the filter & airbox! it gets all the air it can use so why mess with it? The shims under the slide pins?? mid to top end RPM's?? The 2.5 turns out for TX maybe in the rite area, maybe out a bit much! the exhaust, if its a bolt on should have no effect, if it is a slip on with its own midpipe?? Usual effects are cold natured, & running out of go @ top end! + less mpg(shims should have cured the top end) Your 96 B6 w/D&D is a bolt on rite? Now you did the adjusting that is probably way out on carb sinc trial! Where to start? I would go back to carb sinc! You may have to do it again after its running rite! Make sure you adj the rpm to about 1500 with the adj KNOB under the carbs before adj the linkage. Then after you get the sinc job done, adj rpm down to about 1100 and turn primary screws in until it cuts out cyl, out till smooth idle is obtained on all 4 cyl. Recheck sinc of carbs if still close its up to you! the primary fuel adj will make a diff in sinc reading, also primary adj screws may have to be turned back out if it pops or bumbles on deceleration :beers:
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Well, after reading all of these posts, I decided to sync my carbs as my plugs on cylinders 1 & 2 were looking quite different than 3 & 4. After making my manometer, the whole sync process took me about an hour from soup to nuts. I couldn't believe how off 1 & 2 was to 3 & 4. My manometer is about a meter and a half long, and when I was doing 2 & 3 it sucked the water right to the top for my # 2 carb. I was using 3/8 clear tubing for the manometer itself which I thought would give me plenty of water column wieght to prevent that. I was lucky. My B 12 now runs very smooth. :motorsmile: For the 3 bucks I spent in some fittings. I was worth it. I would say that before you go through the sync process, make sure the linkage is clean. Those adjustment screws are touchy and you don't need any grit and grime screwing things up. Just to satify my curiousity, when I was done I hooked up on 1 & 4 just to make sure everything was in line.
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I rode the bike last nite. I'd like to retract my rpm concern. It was a beast. Perhaps think my riding technique/throttle/clutch control is getting better, so it seems a less then being strapped to the back of a raped ape. However, when I snap the throttle, the thing GOES.
I'll tackle the carb sync next weekend. In the meantime, I'll relish the idea that I saved my self around $500 in stealer costs. At $85 for the 1 hour diag, a minimum of four hours for carb work, and maybe another hour for "others issues"....
Smitty
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I see that everybody used different size tubing to do this. How did you make sure that the tube stayed tight on the take-off valves?
Also, does anyone know what size fuel line I need for G2 B6? I plant to rig my gas tank nearby with a longer piece of line.
I am about to go "shopping" and want to make sure I don't need to make the trip a second time around when my gas tank is off... :)
Thanks,
-Vadim
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I used 1/4" OD PVC (OD = Outer Diameter). The ID (inside diameter) was .17 which provided a very tight fit on the vacuum nipples.
Smitty
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Did this today (after a valve adjust). Used 1/4 clear inch tube, 10' long. Filled it up with water (with marker as coloring, as somebody hear suggested). Propped up the tank on two blocks of wood and worked around the fuel lines - no problem. Worked like a charm :)
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Snappy is the word I use to describe my throttle response after a jet kit and carb sync. First carb sync I've ever done and probably the first the bike has ever had. I fancy myself as a sort of McGuyver but without the mullet, so when I saw the make your own man-o-meter threads I was intrigued. In the McGuyver vein I ordered a Yoshi jet kit for a 90-93 Katana from ebay for like 18 bucks after shipping. I was pretty sure it would work but for 18 bucks why not give it a rip. Well the install was text book and the bike fired right away after the carbs went in at 2.5 turns out. So charged full of confidence I decided to sync up those jetted out bad boys. Ya'll were right when you said it was super easy. It only took me about 45 min and about three cups of gas (when the fuel line slipped off the petcock) Thanks to all those who shared their experiences. Oh my only tip if the levels are super jumpy or just suck all the water/oil out as soon as the engine cranks simply pinch off both tubes to restrict air flow. It will give you time dial in your adjustment, alternately you could rig up an old jet in each side of the tube but I'm lazy so there you go.
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I spoke too soon it won't freakin' start now. The other day the dang thing fired right off no choke. I sync'd the carbs up with after the jet kit. I had great throttle response rolling into the throttle with any agression what so ever resulted in the front wheel rising with super wheelie power. Granted I didn't get out of second gear, she is not road legal right now so I was limited by length of the street in front of the house. I guess I had it too rich I fouled the hell out of the plugs, Or possibly the squirt of oil down each cylinder (bringing it out of storage) or the gas of unknown age I have in the fuel tank. Yeah I know I'm a schmuck for so many reasons, but I'm a schmuck whom is in need. And a schmuck in need is a schmuck indeed! What ever the case my plugs were all black and oily, maybe sooty gas. Anyone have any suggestions? My setup is as follows.
Yoshimura Stage one Jet kit:
112 jet
needle shimmed third notch from bottom
mix screws 2.5 turns out
stock airbox and filter
Chuck's super duper straight thru exhaust, as per this picture.
(http://img496.imageshack.us/img496/6455/smallcleanandmean0026rt6ek.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
no other engine mods
I have not verified spark but when I found those plugs I was exasperated and it was late in the day Sunday so I gave up. I'm picking up a fresh set of Autolites from Advance auto today. (they have a bike look up utility on their computer WOW) I'm trying to move so this isn't my priority, but I intend on slapping the plugs in and at least attempting to kick it over this afternoon.
Thanks,
Chuck
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GASGASGAS. I guess I knew gas went bad but I didn't know how bad. So after draining the float bowls, checking shims and screw settings. New gas no problem. It fired right off. So a little idle adjustment and a carb sync and it runs magnificiently. At least in the low to mid range it runs well, since it has no tags lacks a functioning head and tail light and signals I can't give it a good run beyond the end of the street. Thanks again :thanks: everyone I would have had a much harder time without all the great advice.
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Just a note for anyone else who intends to use the cheap manometer to sync their carbs: use oil in the lines instead of water. I used Marvel Mystery Oil, which is red, thicker than water, and less likely to make a mess in your engine if it gets sucked into the carb (which obviously happens once in a while).
I synched mine 1-2, 3-4, then (1,2) to (3,4). Not that it matters.
Note that carb synch and valve adjustment often go together, since they both have to to do with quantity of stuff getting into the cylinders. Do valves first, then carbs.
Dave
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When I first posted this, the instructions I pilfered off an aviation website also called for oil in the manometer. I was not sure of the effect oil would have if it were ingested into the carbs. I did know that ingesting a small amount of water would be harmless (rain, carb ice and water injection systems being the proving grounds). Plus, water was easier to deal with and a LOT easier to clean up.
With that said, oil's viscosity would give an advantage when it comes to reading the relative vacuum; water bounces around a lot and you're left with getting the carbs sync'ed to within a couple inches of water....but even a couple inches of water is equal to a tiny fraction of an inch of mercury, so water's accuracy is certainly good enough. (for you geeks, 1" of water = .07343" of mercury)
It's a matter of preference, really. I just wanted to comfort folks with the idea of a few ounces of water going through the engine. It's quite harmless and happens all the time....sometimes by design.
Just a note for anyone else who intends to use the cheap manometer to sync their carbs: use oil in the lines instead of water. I used Marvel Mystery Oil, which is red, thicker than water, and less likely to make a mess in your engine if it gets sucked into the carb (which obviously happens once in a while).
Dave
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Oil shouldn't be a problem... 2-strokes burn it all the time, as do 4-strokes with bad rings or valve stem seals.
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After having read all these post on the subject, I have to agree with Dave.
You do your valves and carbs at about the same time but do the valves first.
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Ok, I am officially bummed.
I have a 2002 1200S that I decided to try to sync up.
I tried the tubing manometer as noted above, with Marvel Mystery Oil as fluid.
After giving up on trying to keep the tank in place, I unhooked it and the carb bank to get more room.
I took off all 4 vac caps (was this a mistake?) and hooked up the tubing to 3 and 4 carb.
I reconnected the carb to the intakes (Yes, I tightened the boot clamps) and hooked up the gas, with the petcock on 'pri'
I started up the bike, and got a horrible sputtery/missing/spitting idle.
I could not get it to idle smooth unless I used the choke to get the revs up around 3K, and even then it was rough.
I started playing with the idle screw to get the rpms up to the suggested 1750, but could never get it to idle without the choke.
BTW, it was running fine before I started this.
I think I adjusted the idle screw too much, because now I can't even get it to fire!
My battery is weak from all the starting, so I figured I better pause and get some advice.
Can anyone suggest a course of action?
Do I need to reconnect any of the vacuum lines to the gas tank or PAIR system?
Also, should the caps all be off or only the two I'm currently adjusting?
Please help! My baby is sick. :boohoo:
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="Elmojo"]Ok, I am officially bummed.
I have a 2002 1200S that I decided to try to sync up.
I tried the tubing manometer as noted above, with Marvel Mystery Oil as fluid.
After giving up on trying to keep the tank in place, I unhooked it and the carb bank to get more room.
I took off all 4 vac caps (was this a mistake?) and hooked up the tubing to 3 and 4 carb.
I reconnected the carb to the intakes (Yes, I tightened the boot clamps) and hooked up the gas, with the petcock on 'pri'
I started up the bike, and got a horrible sputtery/missing/spitting idle.
I could not get it to idle smooth unless I used the choke to get the revs up around 3K, and even then it was rough.
I started playing with the idle screw to get the rpms up to the suggested 1750, but could never get it to idle without the choke.
BTW, it was running fine before I started this.
I think I adjusted the idle screw too much, because now I can't even get it to fire!
My battery is weak from all the starting, so I figured I better pause and get some advice.
Can anyone suggest a course of action?
Do I need to reconnect any of the vacuum lines to the gas tank or PAIR system?
Also, should the caps all be off or only the two I'm currently adjusting?
Please help! My baby is sick. :boohoo:
You did all the wrong stuff looks like! don't do any major adj it takes just a touch to do alot. Those 4 caps can't be open to the air, i used a remote fuel supply, plastic bottle with a pint. I think your 2gen with tps needs 3 & 4 -1 & 2 then all 4 can be synced together. The vac tube needs to be hooked to your tank in order to let fuel flow unless you run it on prim. If you have # i could call ya! also don't forget a fan to keep her cooled!!!
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You did all the wrong stuff looks like! don't do any major adj it takes just a touch to do alot. Those 4 caps can't be open to the air, i used a remote fuel supply, plastic bottle with a pint. I think your 2gen with tps needs 3 & 4 -1 & 2 then all 4 can be synced together. The vac tube needs to be hooked to your tank in order to let fuel flow unless you run it on prim. If you have # i could call ya! also don't forget a fan to keep her cooled!!!
I would appear so!
That's what I get for trying to combine several different carb sync methods into one. :duh:
I guess I need to cap off the two carbs I'm not currently syncing?
I did have to tank on Prime, so the vac line to the tank isn't needed, right?
I will definitely get a fan. I wasn't sure what the other comments meant about the fan, but I see what you mean about cooling.
If you want to email me your phone #, I'll call you when I'm about to dive in again, maybe tomorrow evening? My email is below.
Now I just need to recharge my battery and try to figure out a good starting point for the idle adjusting screw.
If I screw it all the way in, then back it out (like when adjusting fuel mix screws) what would be a good starting point? I'm guessing it will be quite a few turns, based on the amount of turning I did this afternoon! :shock:
Thanks for the advice, I really don't want to admit defeat and take this thing to the stealer.
Mike P.
elmojo@hotmail.com
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I guess I need to cap off the two carbs I'm not currently syncing?
correct, otherwise you're sucking extra air in through those open holes and everything will be lean and the carbs won't be getting the right vacuum. runs like crap, if at all.
I did have to tank on Prime, so the vac line to the tank isn't needed, right?
correct, but it DOES need to be closed off somehow. personally, I put a clamp on it and snug it down good.
for the idle, what I would do is turn it all the way out so that it is not affecting the throttle at all, then start it with the choke, and once it warms, turn off the choke and keep it running with the throttle, try to get a steady low rev run with the throttle, then crank in the idle screw until it picks up and make s the revs climb, realease the throttle and adjust the idle back down slowly to the right speed. heh. that's how I'd to it, but then I have three hands.... :lol:
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heh. that's how I'd to it, but then I have three hands....
Talk about getting all the girls! :bigok: (sorry - inside joke from the 400 forum)
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Okay, first things first.
Thanks to your patience and kind support, my baby runs again!
Muchas Gracias para todo! LOL
Now, the bad news:
After screwing around with tiny vac plugs in an impossibly cramped and hot engine bay, I gave up, put everything back together, and abandoned the carb syncing fiasco.
I guess I'll just bite the bullet and take it to the stealer and let him do it. :duh:
Here's the weird news:
As I was fiddling around, I noticed a sound that I had heard before, but was never able to track down.
My best attempt to describe this sound is somewhere between a *chunk* and a *spit*. I've been hearing this sound since I got el bandito about 2 yrs ago. I happens more when the engine is cold, but still some when it's warm. It only happens at idle or low rpms.
Try to picture two solid metal blocks, soaked in oil, whacking into each other at a semi-high veloicty while encased inside a cast aluminum housing. Sounds kinda like upper-end engine parts smacking together, huh? That's what I thought too!
Needless to say, it sounds REALLY bad.
During my carb follies today, I was able to diagnose it a bit better.
I'm thinking it's some sort of backfire through the carb(s).
I had my hand on the carb when it did it, and the whole carb housing jumped a few mm whenever the sound happened.
I also had my hand once on the air filter with the cover off, and the filter bumped out towards the rear of the bike, like there was a bit of backpressure there.
I still can't pin down the metal-on-metal sound, but the spitting sounds like the aforementioned backfire through the carb.
Can anyone confirm that I'm not crazy and, more importantly, that my bike isn't about to frag like a grenade?! :shock:
If anyone thinks it will help, I can record a sound clip of the engine running, and maybe you can hear the sound I'm describing.
Sorry for the long-winded post, I'm kinda freaked out here. :sad:
Elmojo
2002 Silver 1200S
Mechanically stock
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With the filter out they sound like a bunch of pissed cats, i had # 4 carb just stop fueling at idle one time, i pulled the air box cover,filter, then the screen (just toss it away if you take that out it will just get ya mad tryin to get it back in) and did the polish carb cleaning trick. Used a paint can top over #4 inlet after reving it up! Fixed the prob! Ran a half can of sea foam thru it but it was spitting from all the carbs making noise. Its normal i was told. Did the carb sync!! Nice and quiet at idle, smooth, less or no vibs! What a diff. Carb sync will do the most for making these run better than any other thing i have done!!! To bad you gave up, you were so close!!! :duh: :boohoo: :beers: :beers: :motorsmile:
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Daytona, I have no idea what you just wrote!
What is this carb cleaning trick of which you speak?
I'm so confused. :shock:
Please be patient and post again, using small words for my feeble mind to grasp.
Elmojo
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="Elmojo"]Daytona, I have no idea what you just wrote!
What is this carb cleaning trick of which you speak?
I'm so confused. :shock:
Please be patient and post again, using small words for my feeble mind to grasp.
Elmojo
Just ramblin i guess! disregard, It wont help your prob! :roll: :beers:
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Hey, no problem. If I had a nickel for every time I've solved a problem by 'just rambling' I'd have...errr....26cents?! What? How is that even possible? Did I give CHANGE or something?
*ahem*
Sorry, got a bit sidetracked there. :banana:
Anyway, thanks for the tips.
Does anyone else wanna take a stab at playing doctor with my spitting carbs? Pleeeez? :thanks:
Elmojo
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First to ChuckD. Wow. Nice pipe. How do you get along with your neighbours?
Second, my real question. I bought a carb sync kit for under a hunnert dollars. One of those no name brand jobs with four gauges like what you'd see in one of those super cheap tuneup kits from some big box store. It seems to work fine allowing me to carb sync all the carbs at once. The point is that with a water tube between two of the carbs there is no doubt that you are actually syncing those two carbs. With these gauges I've got whose to say the gauges themselves are acting the same. I mean they are adjustable to line up the needles and all but what if the springs have different tensions?
And to answer my own question... I guess when I hit the 6000k tuneup for my 06 B12, I'll sync up and then switch the tubes around to see if they remain the same. Hey, why didn't I think of that? Wait a minute....never mind....
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rocketjock: to use the dial type, just use 1 cylinder to calibrate the thing. hook the first dial up to cylinder 1 (or whatever you want, but use the same cylinder for all dials) and note what it reads. Then in succession, hook the other three dials up to that same cylinder and adjust the dial until it reads the same as the first one did. I'd probably then go back through all four dials and double check them. then they should read consistently for each cylinder.
Now I have to say, that the type you have are probably BETTER for cards that are way out of whack, otherwise you'll just suck tubeful after tubeful of water/oil through your carbs while you try to figure out how to get them closer. However, once they're close, I think the water/oil in a tube is probably MORE accurate because it sure as hell is touchy to adjust...
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My gauges do have individual screw valves on each of the tubes that you turn down till the shaking needle becomes steady. But thanks for that input on how to set them all the same.
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I have been wrenching for so many years i don't want to think about it! manometers,flow meters of the best quality, Water, mercury, etc etc! The Po' mans snyc'er is as good as it gets! No need for all those (I hope they are all reading the same gages) They can cause more probs than good!!! With the tube and liquid even a cave man could do it!! :soapbox: :stooges: :stickpoke: :bslap: :annoy:
Just kiddin!! But if you got thru it one time it would all make perfect sense after!!!!
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Wow, thanks Daytona.
Now I feel like the above mentioned cave man, only dumber. :monkeymoon:
I battled with this setup for parts of two days and only succeeded in scraping my knuckles and learning a few new words.
I just can't imagine what you guys are doing differently that makes it so easy?!
Oh well, I didn't need that $90 anyway, I'll just take it to the dealer..sniff...