Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Buzter on May 24, 2007, 09:49:17 PM
-
hey guys, I'm looking for a cheaper alternative to suzuki oil. I have a 02' B6 and need some ideas since oil is pretty expensive here lately.
-
Buz: I use Shell Rotella T Synthetic, available at WalMart at a very reasonable price.
Oil is like RELIGION... people tend to lose all good common sense and rationality in defending their choice of oil. People get very passionate about the oil they choose to use. The producer/sellers of specialty oils such as Amzoil, Motul, Royal Purple and bike Brand Name oils just love to RAKE IN THE PROFITS FROM THEIR OVER PRICED GOO.
Mostly, if you keep it changed and new filters faithfully on a 2K to 3K schedule, most any brand of oil will do just nicely... some will shift better than others, some will give you more peace of mind than others, but if it meets the viscosity and API service spec set forth in your owner's manual... it will do just fine... Just change it every 2 or 3 K mi and change the filter each time too.
JR
Lake Livingston, TX
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
-
I thought synthetics were to slick for the bandit clutch.
Buz: I use Shell Rotella T Synthetic, available at WalMart at a very reasonable price.
Oil is like RELIGION... people tend to lose all good common sense and rationality in defending their choice of oil. People get very passionate about the oil they choose to use. The producer/sellers of specialty oils such as Amzoil, Motul, Royal Purple and bike Brand Name oils just love to RAKE IN THE PROFITS FROM THEIR OVER PRICED GOO.
Mostly, if you keep it changed and new filters faithfully on a 2K to 3K schedule, most any brand of oil will do just nicely... some will shift better than others, some will give you more peace of mind than others, but if it meets the viscosity and API service spec set forth in your owner's manual... it will do just fine... Just change it every 2 or 3 K mi and change the filter each time too.
JR
Lake Livingston, TX
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
-
Not at all... Too slick... Not at all... If an oil has "Energy Conserving" on the container... it's possible for that oil to be too slick for wet clutch operation. In general, however, "Energy Conserving" oils are of too thin a viscosity and do not meet the bike manufacturer's specs for viscosity index. However, if the container does not have "Energy Conserving" on it, no problem.
Suggest you read this:
http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html#charta
about engine oils or do a Google for SMOT and read the oil related items there or on the VFR boards. The author Mike is a retired oil/lubricant test scientist from a major oil company in Houston.... Very informative information.
BTW... I've personally used synthetics in MANY bikes and NEVER had a clutch slip.
JR
Lake Livingston, TX
01 B12S
-
cool, thanks. I've got the filter, so I'll pick up some oil this weekend.
Not at all... Too slick... Not at all... If an oil has "Energy Conserving" on the container... it's possible for that oil to be too slick for wet clutch operation. In general, however, "Energy Conserving" oils are of too thin a viscosity and do not meet the bike manufacturer's specs for viscosity index. However, if the container does not have "Energy Conserving" on it, no problem.
Suggest you read this:
http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html#charta
about engine oils or do a Google for SMOT and read the oil related items there or on the VFR boards. The author Mike is a retired oil/lubricant test scientist from a major oil company in Houston.... Very informative information.
BTW... I've personally used synthetics in MANY bikes and NEVER had a clutch slip.
JR
Lake Livingston, TX
01 B12S
-
Welcome.
JR
-
Older clutches seem to run into the sliippage problem more often. I use a semi-synthetic Golden Spectro. Oil changes are expensive, but I use what works good for me. Cheap or expensive, I don't care. I have found some oils tend to give up early and start giving me shifting problems. That is where I find out if a oil is good or not.
-
Solman: You are right in regard to clutches with a LOT of miles on them, or those which have been "ridden hard and put up wet" to use an old "cowboy" expression about horses which are abused. In general a clutch exposed to normal... that is NON ABUSIVE treatment over a reasonable period of time should never have a problem with synthetic oils. You are right too, Solman, about using sticky or klunky shifting as an indicator of oil breaking down. This does seem to be a valid indicator, at least I think so.
JR
01B12S
Lake Livingston, TX
-
Let me chime in with a plug for Shell Rotella 15w-40 dino.... real cheap (at Wallyworld for less than 9 bucks a gallon) and since I change mine every 2,000 miles it's a real bargain.
I'd like to add...... :thanks: to everyone for just adding their input and not slamming with "do a search"..... makes this place real pleasant to be around.
-
txbanditdr:
You've got a real point. Cheap and as good as any dino oil. The only advantage of synthetics is the shear resistance in the transmission gears making it maintain lubricity for significantly longer times.
I ran a GL1000 engine on Castrol GTX 20-50 on a 2K change cycle for 140,000 mi. When it began to jump out of first gear, I split the case. I was amazed at how clean and NEW everything inside looked... no sludge build up, no deposits... just a pale golden tint to the white aluminum innards of the motor.
I used a mic and measured the ring end gaps... within factory tolerance for new ring fit. Then I meausred all the bearings... all within factory tolerance for new bearings. So, I changed a gear dog to correct the gear jump under power, put it back together and ran it some more.
The frame on the old scoot began to fail at welds so the engine was removed and sold to a guy with an 81 GL1100 who'd forgotten to put oil in and ruined his motor... That was at 240,000 mi on the GL1000 motor... how long it went until he forgot to put oil in, I know not...
That near quater million miles was on DINO juice changed every 2K mi/w/new filter each change.
I've just gotten lazy in my antiquity. I don't like greasy fingers any more, so I use synthetics so I don't have to change oil so often.
The slight difference in price is more than made up in convenience, the price of filters lasting longer, and the smooth "click" shifting I get with the synthetic.
You are totally RIGHT about the civility of folk posting here. We all have opinions, of course, and to be comedic about it, opinions are somewhat like arm pits... we all have them and most often they STINK. Personally, I'm not out to do a "Gottcha" or a "one up" on anyone. I just like to share my experience based knowledge and let others take it or leave it as they choose. I'm with an old Psychologist trainer I read much in my Grad School days... Fritz Perles... "I do my thing. You do your thing. I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you are not here to live up to mine. If somewhere along the way, we find each other, it's wonderful. If not, it can't be helped.
JR
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
Lake Livingston, TX
-
Shell Rotella T 15-40 dino ran just fine in my Bandit for a couple of changes. Before that I used Mobil1 15-50 synthetic with excellent results. Running on Amsoil 10-40 now, but will switch to 20-50 next because of easier availability and potentially smoother shifting. Changed oil and filter every 3.000Km before, but plan to extend the interval to about 10.000 with Amsoil.
As previously said any oil within manufacturers specs (not energy conserving) will do as long as you change it and the filter regularly. IMO, it all boils down to whether you want cheap and available dino oil and change it more often or you pay more for some extra piece of mind and the extended change interval of full synthetics. Just my 2c.
-
Aye, Vlad. You hit on a key issue for most folks: PEACE OF MIND.
Peace of mind is the major selling point of specialty products such as Royal Purple, Motul, Amzoil, etc. Their advertising is geared to creating doubt, creating concern, and creating a problem which they then can claim to solve. Neat sales gimmick indeed.
However, when it gets to the place where the rubber meets the aspharlt/concrete, those oils are no better and no worse than any other quality product, many of which are much less expensive... Specialty product sellers their advertising (often with loud songs of praise by their faithful) really sell PEACE OF MIND by creating the illusion their product solves a problem which in reality doesn't exist apart from their marketing messages.
If you've got the coin of the realm to purchase PEACE OF MIND, then by all means to do so. Your bike won't know the difference, but you will FEEL better for having spent the coin.
One word about specs: Almost all bike engines call for API (American Petroleum Institute) service rating SG, I believe. What most people don't know and what manufcturers don't tell the public is, That means, an oil rated SJ must have met the specs for all the ratings below or earlier including SF and SG.
JR
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
Lake Livingston, TX
-
Your peace of mind argument is very valid JR and I totally agree with it. However, it wasn't the main point of my message.
The only difference between oils I ever truly noticed was in shifting. Mobil1 15W50 "red cap" shifted smoothly through the entire 3.000Km interval, at any environment and oil temperature. So did Shell Rotella, both synth and dino. All others, including Amsoil 10W40, were notchy and kind of stiff.
I have no other way of telling how good a certain oil is, and all other differences I experienced can be attributed to the "placebo effect".
Now, oil filters, that's a totally different and often neglected part of the controversy :).
-
Now, oil filters, that's a totally different and often neglected part of the controversy :).
Ok, I'll bit on getting the controversy going :wink:
Going to be heading out for parts this week to do an oil change and the plugs as well. I've read a couple articles about filters and yes, there is a lot of controversy out there. I remember one report that said the Supertech (WallyWorld brand) was actually better performing than a higher end Fram filter. Is there any general consensus on which filters are recommended?
One other question about choosing oil. Does "testing" various types have any adverse affects over time? Meaning that you try a full synthetic for 2-3k, then run dino oil, then back to a different syn?
-
One other question about choosing oil. Does "testing" various types have any adverse affects over time? Meaning that you try a full synthetic for 2-3k, then run dino oil, then back to a different syn?
The only thing you should have in mind is that the oil change on a Bandit replaces only 60% of all oil in the engine. 40% gets left behind in the radiator and other parts of the engine.
All those stories about how it's not good to mix different types/grades of oil are pure BS, IMO.
-
Oh great celestial hunter accompanied by a faithful canine marching across the night sky... welcome to the discussion.
I too have read the comments about the Wally World house brand filters and oil. I use them (SuperTech) both in my old work truck. They seem to be just fine.
Your question of brand switching (you called it "testing.") is a valid one. What will it hurt? The answer is IT WILL HURT NOTHING but perhaps your wallet.
Manufactures are in the business of SELLING so they will do what they can to close your mind to all brands but what they sell. The reality is, if you drain the old and install fresh, nothing bad is going to happen even if you put in fresh stuff you wouldn't use in a 50 year old klunker...
Most of what you read about various oils, especially those formulated especially for motorcycles is PURE HYPE. Most all of the "test results" etc. are focused on OVERKILL. Overkill happens when you go beyond the point of diminishing returns in terms of value received for your hard earned money.
Yes, running engine oil in the transmission gears does subject the oil to greater shear and impact stresses. Yes, it might break down (lose viscosity) more quickly and so it might benefit from a minute addition of anti-wear, anti-shearing, and anti-impact additives, but your proposed short time testing shouldn't in any way cause a dent in anything but your wallet.
If the oil meets or exceeds the bike manufacturer's specs as listed in your owner's manual, chances are you won't be able to tell the difference after a change of brands... the engine won't either. Now, the time it takes for the oil to begin to break down (lose viscosity) in the gears resulting in stiffer or "clunky" shifting may vary, but as soon is you notice stiff or "clunky" shifting, you change the oil... you are going to be just fine.
Notice too, NONE OF THE MAJOR MANUFACTURERS recommend any additional additives. I've tested all those too... TFE (Trifloroethelene or teflon)... no positive effect... STP goo... no positive effect... several other supposedly viscosity improvers, friction reducers, and such... those all in general have a very positive effect on the SELLER's bottom line, but do your engine NO GOOD... most are harmless too.
The best thing you can do is pick your juice and change it frequently with a fresh filter each oil change.
JR
01B12S "Le Rouge Rogue"
Lake Livingston, TX
-
Vlad... you said:
"All those stories about how it's not good to mix different types/grades of oil are pure BS, IMO."
I say: RIGHT ON! If I could agree more, I would.
JR
-
Nice post, JR :bigok:
I can't believe tv has been lying to me all these years.... :rant2:
I've always felt that changing the oil/filter on a regular basis was more important than the type or brand of oil itself. I've only been riding for a few years now and am still learning a lot about the internals to these engines...and of course that process is never ending :wink:
-
I too am glad to see a Civil oil post. My previous cage's cult-like following (VW TDI's) had a cult-like oil war and about half the yahoo group's members left due to it.
My concerns and reason to post:
1. Synthetic vs. Non-synthetic? I'm running "semi synthetic" motul right now...its fine. I was told it would make my shifts feel better but it didn't really affect it one way or another. It had v-twin specific castrol 20-50 before..Then we get into the Type III vs. Type IV synthetic argument
2. Recommended rating? Book says 10w40. Does going to 50 and to a synthetic really help?
3. Heat-related breakdown. Houston weather and potential for VERY high engine temps.
I worry about Rotella because it is a diesel oil. It has additives specific to handling a large soot-load from the diesel engine. (Try to get used oil from a diesel engine off concrete...or your skin for that matter...). Isn't Rotella an "energy conserving" oil as well? My v-max got 500 miles on Mobil 1 for cars...guy changed it back to motorcycle oil but the damage was done. Miles later, with a new owner (me) and new driving style the clutch started slipping pretty quick.
I, like many of you, have a 20-25% off coupon at cycle gear valid later this month...was going to stock up on 4 oil changes worth of oil if I get insight on what to purchase.
Only thing I would add to the "peace of mind" argument...a couple of the small-guy synthetic oil makers and maybe Mobil 1 (for cars at least) offer warranty's above and beyond the manufacturer's warranty. Never heard of any experiences trying to claim on them. (I switched to royal purple chain lube on my previous bike for this reason...I figured if my chain failed early, I could at least try to get them to pay to replace it...).
My 3.1415 cents,
Andrew
-
Andrew. I know Houston heat well. I live on Lake Livingston north of you.
I don't claim to be an authority on POL (Petroleum/Oils/Lubricants).
Here's a very good article on oil.
Each should form their own opinion, I think.
Yes, Rotella is formulated for Diesel use. The soot load is I think. looking the wrong direction.
The concern in formulating oil for diesel use, I think, is HIGH IMPACT loading due to the extreme compression present in diesel engines. Oil formulated to hold up under that kind of pounding would find the crank bearing and rod bearing loads in a bike engine very gentle by comparison.
I'm more concerned with molecular shearing (piston ring slipping and bearing slipping) and impact resistances than about soot.
I'd then consider the soot quesiton to be a "red herring" detracting attention from really vital factors involving shear and impact resistance. But then that's just the way my mind works... weighing the various factors all en masse and deciding on the basis of what's best for how I use my engines.
JR
-
My v-max got 500 miles on Mobil 1 for cars...guy changed it back to motorcycle oil but the damage was done. Miles later, with a new owner (me) and new driving style the clutch started slipping pretty quick.
Ok, so let me ask this. What's the difference then between oils "specially formulated for motorcycles" from Brand X as opposed to, say, Pennzoil marketed for cars (assuming both are the same weight, i.e. 10w40)? Is there truly a difference on the molecular level, or is it another marketing thing?
-
I'd then consider the soot quesiton to be a "red herring" detracting attention from really vital factors involving shear and impact resistance. But then that's just the way my mind works... weighing the various factors all en masse and deciding on the basis of what's best for how I use my engines.
JR
My reason for concern I guess has to do with the additives package that makes the oil ok with all the soot. I'd like to see an article similar to the one posted earlier about that. The diesel oils they tested are not considered to be good oils that you can safely run 10k in a TDI. (based on oil analysis at 5k). I think, from reading the article, it has to do with what, and how much, anti acid chemicals are in the oil.
There IS a difference between most regular car oils available today and motorcycle oil and that is the "energy conservation". That is where motorcycle clutches get grumpy is with that package of addititives. Also, I've been doing some reading on the new oil's LACK of additives causing older cars to die quickly. I can't find the link right now...
-
Ok, so let me ask this. What's the difference then between oils "specially formulated for motorcycles" from Brand X as opposed to, say, Pennzoil marketed for cars (assuming both are the same weight, i.e. 10w40)? Is there truly a difference on the molecular level, or is it another marketing thing?
It's pretty much a consensus that there is no difference. The only thing to avoid are the oils with "energy conserving" mark, but those are not produced in grades most motorcycles use (10W40, 20W50...) anyway.
-
Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...
-
Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...
I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...
-
Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...
I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...
Same here. I've always used Pennzoil for my cars, but have never noticed anything that said "energy conserving" on the label. Unless it's in lawyer sized print on the back. I know I have a quart in the trunk of my car, but rode the bike today so will have to look when I get home. Unless the "energy conserving" is a norm now in the industry and they don't list it on the package.
Edit: Went to Pennzoil's website and looked at some data sheets on the 10w40. Doesn't say anywhere on it that it's EC. They do have a specific brand for motorcycles. The biggest difference is that the API classes regular (for cars) oil as a SL rated oil, and the motorcycle blend is SG rated.
The specific gravity and density ratings are virtually the same between the two, but the viscosity ratings are higher for the bike blend compared to the car.
-
Last time I was shopping for oil for my cage, all (even the walmart cheap brand) the oil there was labelled "energy conserving"...even the 10w40...
I have never seen an energy conserving 10W40. Maybe they have changed the formulation recently or i wasn't looking well enough...
Stopped by the local auto parts store to see if they carried bike oil and didn't have much. I did however finally figure where the hell the "energy saving" label is at. If you look on the back of the bottles (virtually all brands) there is a small circle that indicates the API rating (SG, SM, etc). In the lower half of the circle it will state "energy saving" if it is, and much to my surprise a lot of them are labeled that way.
-
I'm not near any of my tech books right now, but generally, Energy Conserving (EC) and Energy Conserving II (ECII) oils need to be SAE 30 or less (the number following the W in the SAE rating) such as 5W-20, 5W-30. Our bikes should be using a SAE 40 viscosity, eg 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40 or 15W40.
The SAE viscosity rating is based on an actual viscosity range, so it is possible that a SAE 40 that barely makes the grade could get an EC rating...Most oils that pass EC or ECII do so with the use of friction modifiers, which you want to avoid in our wet clutches, but synthetics based on PAO or synthetic hydrocarbons should not cause any issues, and usually need a lower treat rate of VII additives to maintain viscosity in service.
Without dredging up a lot more debate, for most of the questions, read some of the other threads on oil here. The important thing is to find something you trust, and change it on a regular cycle.
Diesel engine oils DO have a detergent/dispersent package that has to contend with higher soot loading. Not necessarily a bad thing for our bikes with wet clutches. They also have VII additives that tend to be more shear resistant. Also a good thing with wet clutches and tranmissions.
-
I'm not near any of my tech books right now, but generally,
<snippage>
_________________
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
27 years in the Fuel/lubes industry
I was wondering how long it would take before the POL pro stepped in the clear things up. :wink: :thumb:
-
Got my oil changed last night. Only store nearby that had bike oil was a PepBoys. Didn't have 10w40 in stock, but had a gallon jug of Castrol 20w50 so figured I'd give that a go. Seems to shift a lot smoother, but that could simply be due to puting new oil in. $15 for it so wasn't too bad. Anything beats the Yamalube 20w40 I have to run in the FZR. They're about the only ones that make that weight and the damned local stealer charges $5/quart.
-
Anything beats the Yamalube 20w40 I have to run in the FZR. They're about the only ones that make that weight and the damned local stealer charges $5/quart.
Don't run it. 20w50 will work for that as well. I had a v-max and refused to pay what they wanted for the "right" oil for that bike. This was validated time and time again by VMOA members.
Drew
-
Anything beats the Yamalube 20w40 I have to run in the FZR. They're about the only ones that make that weight and the damned local stealer charges $5/quart.
Don't run it. 20w50 will work for that as well. I had a v-max and refused to pay what they wanted for the "right" oil for that bike. This was validated time and time again by VMOA members.
Drew
I'll have to give it a try sometime I imagine. I know it won't "hurt" anything, but something about the older FZRs don't seem to like the w50 as much. I'll have to go do some digging and see if I can find out what the specific reasons were. Appreciate the tip :wink:
-
I know that on the v-max there are a couple issues that conspire to make you just want to be careful until the engine is warm. (oil temp gauges were all the rage...). A cheap/weird washer in the oil pan was the biggie and running w50 sometimes made those problems a bit worse.