Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Grissom on April 05, 2007, 11:33:26 AM
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How many of you use a torque wrench when tightening the oil drain plug?
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I do... definelty worth the piece of mind. My first few were done with the FAR method (feels about right) but once it seemed like things were too snug. Now with the torque wrench I just do the ol' Ron Popiel thing... set it and forget it.
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I've been using German torque (gootentite) on all my drain plugs. Haven't stripped one yet.
(On aircraft I do use one because it's required by law... but I've never owned an aircraft.)
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Aside from plunking down cash on the freakin' special tool, what is a good way of getting that filter off and back on correctly?
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Aside from plunking down cash on the freakin' special tool, what is a good way of getting that filter off and back on correctly?
Plunk down cash for the freakin' special tool.
It's only a few bucks and you can put a ratchet and extension on it, or a 17mm wrench or socket, same size as the drain plug.
I just did my first oil change on the B1250, and without that tool, it woulda been pretty tough getting behind the header pipes. With it, I used a 17mm box-end through the side and it was a piece of cake.
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The special tool is the best, but a simple, cheap rubber strap wrench works for me.
I only put them ON hand tight, and check for leaks.
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:clap:
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What is the torque spec for a drain plug on a 1200 Bandit or 1250S. Are they both the same? Can you use a torque wrench to find a spec by loosening a bolt to find out how much to tighten it? I use a torque wrench so seldom that I have to go back to school first when I do. Sort of like trying to figure internal rates of return on my Texas Instruments BAII Plus.
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I don't,just snug it down good. Don't over tighten,and strip the aluminum. Its also saftey wired,so it can't back out. In fact pretty much everything is wired on my Bandit.
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As an aside here... I think it's a myth that the bike has to be 'hot' when you change the oil.
Yes, you definitely should take the bike out and get it up to full normal operating temperature... and then go home and put it up on it's centerstand to change the oil... but you can let it cool down for a while first.
The 'sludge' that has heated up from your ride will drain into the pan and stay there until you drain it. There is no way it can magically defy gravity and climb back up into the engine.
That is, of course, unless you go out and start it for 30 seconds before you change the oil.
The one exception to this that I can see is if it's freezing cold - you don't want to let the bike sit too long (Like more than a 1/2 hour or so) before draining it, because some of the 'sludge' won't even drain out of the pan at that point.
Just my $.02 worth.
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I use a 1/4 " drive torque wrench because it is easier to use and is very accurate for lower torque values. The torque spec is 198 inch/lbs (16.5 ft/lbs) per workshop manual).
The Suzuki oil filter wrench is only about $10.00 and works well. It fits and there isn't much room for other types of tools.
Lastly, I put a screw-type hose clamp over the hex head of the drain plug after tightening to keep it in place in the unlikely event that it would start to come loose.
The screw head on the clamp will keep the drain plug from rotating out because there isn't room for it to fit next to the casting on the oil pan. (Cheap insurance.)
My 2 cents: Get a 1/4" drive touque wrench and the Suzuki oil filter wrench. Use them often - on your bike and your friend's bikes too.
Oh, and don't forget to either safety wire the drain plug or put on a hose clamp for extra safety. Race rules require it for good reason. (Can you imagine what might happen if the oil drain plug came out and oiled your rear tire while you are going fast or riding around a curve? Not to mention that you could damage the motor)
Good luck.
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What is the torque spec for a drain plug on a 1200 Bandit or 1250S. Are they both the same? Can you use a torque wrench to find a spec by loosening a bolt to find out how much to tighten it?
I'll let someone with a manual handier than mine answer the first question. I don't know if any of our 1250 owners have a manual yet, so don't be surprised if you don't get an answer for that one, but if their drain plugs are the same size, their torque specs are probably the same.
As for the second question, the short answer is, NO. It will take more torque to get it to start moving.
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You might check with your dealer to see if the 1250 drain plug part numbers are the same as the 1200. My guess is that it will be the same, but it pays to check.
Some riders are of the mistaken belief that "tighter is better" and, without a torque wrench, end up stripping threads.
If you don't have a torque wrench, I think you can get by just fine with a "just-snug-but-not-too-tight" drain plug as long as you use safety wire or a hose clamp to keep it from coming loose. (The "just-snug" drain plug will not have the same amount of friction holding it in place as one that is torqued to spec. so you should have some other means of keeping it from backing out)
In my experience, a "just-snug" drain plug usually won't leak if the sealing washer is in good shape and the surfaces are clean.
Good Luck
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What is the torque spec for a drain plug on a 1200 Bandit or 1250S. Are they both the same? Can you use a torque wrench to find a spec by loosening a bolt to find out how much to tighten it?
I'll let someone with a manual handier than mine answer the first question. I don't know if any of our 1250 owners have a manual yet, so don't be surprised if you don't get an answer for that one, but if their drain plugs are the same size, their torque specs are probably the same.
As for the second question, the short answer is, NO. It will take more torque to get it to start moving.
On the B1250, I don't have a shop manual yet, but all the owner's manual says is to "tighten drain plug snugly". The head size is 17mm.
It does list a torque spec for the oil filter... 14.5 ft-lbs., or two full turns once the gasket touches the surface. But I just hand-tightened it as usual.
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I asked my auto mechanic and the tool guy he buys tools from about inch-pounds torque wrenches a while back. They said since I'd only use the thing once in a while, the best way to guess correctly is to use the gorilla strength rule. If you need to apply gorilla strength to tighten it, that's probably too tight. With any drain plug I've ever tightened, I get it snug by hand then get it seated with a rachet and I finish it off with just enough push so that three fingers is about enough to move the bolt. I don't grip the tool and wrench it home. That is how I was told to take a good guess at inch-pounds torque.
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If you are well-aware of how much torque you apply with your "3-finger" approach and you can apply that amount of torque consistently, then that could be a good method.
However, I think you will be surprised if you actually check yourself.
You can check yourself by turning a wrench against the square drive of a beam-type torque wrench while an assistant reads the scale from the other side. You will not see the scale but your assistant who is holding the torque wrench can see it. Use your "3-finger" approach and ask your assistant what the actual torque values are. If you do this several times, you will get some idea of your level of consistency.
Then, to "recalibrate" your "3 finger" approach, set a click-type torque wrench to the 16.5 ft/lb spec and again use a wrench to turn the square drive until the wrench clicks, indicating that the torque spec has been reached. If you do that now and then, you can recalibrate your feel and improve your consistency.
It was these tests that convinced me to use a torque wrench for any important fastener.
Good luck.
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seems like its worth it to buy the suzuki tool. i wonder if it can be ordered online. myself, if im dealing with a stubborn oil filter i just use large channel locks. and for oil plug, once its pretty tight, an extra 1/4 turn.
does anyone have a P/N for mobile filter? i was condsidering going with their oil this time.
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The oil filter thread in the FAQ (http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=218) lists a bunch of different brands, sadly, there's nothing there for any of Mobil's filters. You may be able to use those numbers to cross-reference. I couldn't find a Mobil application list on-line, but I didn't look very long either.
You might be interested to read this on m/c oil filters:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters
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Spin-on oil filters are supposed to be hand tight but too hot to remove by hand. I use a large set of channel locks to grab and manipulate the hot filter until loose until I can spin it off with barely touching it with my finger tips. For replacment I just spin it on and barely snug it to prevent leaks for oil re-fill but wait until the engine is cool to hand tighten the new filter.
I have never used a torque wrench on any drain plug but can get most none critical torque wrench requirements very close by feel, like axle nuts, a required skill being an old dirt biker where repairs in the wilderness is a common occurrence withing the group.
.
+1
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I just use a fumoto drain valve...I never have to worry about stripping the drain bolt. And for those of you who are skeptical about using them my dad has used them on his cars/bikes for more than 10 years, and they have been awesome.
I've had one on my bike for about 3 years and never had a problem with it.
It's only about 20 bucks, and makes changing the oil a breeze!
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My oil draining procedure is a tool-less affair thanks to this valve:
(https://ssl2.adhost.com/fumotovalve/graphics/valve2.JPG)
http://fumotovalve.com/
A good and cheaper alternative would be the FRAM SureDrain plug.
As for filters, I buy K&N (built-in nut) or use simple rubber strap tool.
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My oil draining procedure is a tool-less affair thanks to this valve:
(https://ssl2.adhost.com/fumotovalve/graphics/valve2.JPG)
http://fumotovalve.com/
A good and cheaper alternative would be the FRAM SureDrain plug.
As for filters, I buy K&N (built-in nut) or use simple rubber strap tool.
Vlad - that's a great idea... i had quite the struggle last time getting the crush ring out of the drain bolt... (i had to cut the ring)... so this would make the process soooooo much easier..
Any ideas which one fits the Bandits.??
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Any ideas which one fits the Bandits.??
Part#: F-111 (without a nipple) or F-111N (with a nipple)
Thread dimensions: 14mm-1.25
You can find other details on it in this thread:
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=3315&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
Bottom line, I'd recommend FRAM SureDrain. Considerably cheaper, available in Canada (Canadian Tire used to have them, I haven't checked recently) and easier to install. You just have to take care not to loose the hose part and the cap.
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THanks - i'll look into both !
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THanks - i'll look into both !
You can see my valve tonight if you are coming to the Spring Bling in Mississauga :).
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Does the Fram version come in the right size for the Bandit?
Also... has anyone in the USA found a place that sells 'em (cheap)?
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Does the Fram version come in the right size for the Bandit?
Also... has anyone in the USA found a place that sells 'em (cheap)?
I think it does if my memory serves me wright. The dimensions are metric though (14mm-1.25), so it may be little harder to find in the "thumb of a late king" land :).
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so it may be little harder to find in the "thumb of a late king" land :).
Well hell ya good golly.... wez 'mericans is only driving the vehicles with the good ol' sae standard doncha know. Ain't advanced like yous canucks up der. :wink:
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Does the Fram version come in the right size for the Bandit?
Also... has anyone in the USA found a place that sells 'em (cheap)?
Fram has a version for the Bandit, but I wouldn't use it after reading all the bad press it gets over the Net. See the oil filter thread in the FAQ.
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Does the Fram version come in the right size for the Bandit?
Also... has anyone in the USA found a place that sells 'em (cheap)?
Fram has a version for the Bandit, but I wouldn't use it after reading all the bad press it gets over the Net. See the oil filter thread in the FAQ.
FRAM filters do have a very bad reputation and I agree they are to be avoided. However, this valve has nothing to do with their filters. It's cheap (about $15), easy to install and from I could see quite secure. It definitely won't damage the bike in any way and you can always put the old plug back if you don't like it for reasons that are beyond me.
BTW, while we are on oil change/filter/plug topic, check out this magnetic stuff. It shouldn't hurt any, and you can make your own out of old hard drive magnets. Canadian Tire sells something similar (a star shaped magnetic cap that is just put on the top of the filter for $25):
http://www.synlube.com/magnets.htm
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10169282/S_N_POWER_Auto_Magnetic_Oil_Filters.html
And another link with interesting oil info:
http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
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seems like its worth it to buy the suzuki tool. i wonder if it can be ordered online.
You don't have to buy the actual Suzuki tool. Go to any auto parts store and they should have one. My friends own a Carquest and they had one on the shelf. Cost me maybe 6 or 7 bucks if that. Can't remember for sure, but they aren't much. Makes life a lot easier with one of them.
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Is the oil filter the same for the 1200 as for the 1250? Do either use a "crush washer" as with the Gold Wing?
Anything wrong with the OEM Suzuki oil filters? I use them on my Bergman 650 with no problems that I can see. I order via the 800 number, a case of ten at a time, and split them with two buddies. About $7 each delivered to my door with no sales tax....
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Anything wrong with the OEM Suzuki oil filters?
Nope... not at all. I use them - I pay too much but it keeps my face in front of the parts guy at the dealership and he cuts me other deals as needed. I really like the little "condom" the OEM filter has too. :lol:
I change filters every 4,000 miles but I do the oil every 2,000. With the Texas heat I figure it can't hurt and the dino oil I use doesn't cost a ton.
I recently got the genuine Suzuki filter wrench - sure wish I'd bought that a long time ago. I'm hoping it will work on my Element's filter too.
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Is the oil filter the same for the 1200 as for the 1250? Do either use a "crush washer" as with the Gold Wing?
Anything wrong with the OEM Suzuki oil filters? I use them on my Bergman 650 with no problems that I can see. I order via the 800 number, a case of ten at a time, and split them with two buddies. About $7 each delivered to my door with no sales tax....
The Burgman uses the same oil filter as the 1200 - as do most other modern Suzukis with spin-on filters, so I'm gonna guess the 1250 does, too, even though I can't seem to find a listing for it in my quick search.
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You can check yourself by turning a wrench against the square drive of a beam-type torque wrench while an assistant reads the scale from the other side.
You would need to hold the wrench 12" from the axis of rotation of the torque wrench...correct?
Sky (mathematically challenged)
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The Burgman uses the same oil filter as the 1200 - as do most other modern Suzukis with spin-on filters, so I'm gonna guess the 1250 does, too, even though I can't seem to find a listing for it in my quick search.
My B1250 uses the same oil filter as my V-Strom DL650K7 did. :grin:
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Sky,
You can check yourself by turning a wrench against a beam-type torque wrench to see how much torque you are applying.
I like to set a click type torque wrench to the desired value and then, using my wrench, tighten it until it clicks to see how much manual force is required to reach the desired (specified) torque.
You can use any length wrench for this, and probably should use the one you use to tighten the drain plug, because the torque wrench is measuring the result at the business end.
Stripped drain plug threads are a real bummer so, if you don't use a torque wrench, at least "educate" your wrist so you will have some idea of what it should be. Then just "snug it up" - but not as tight as it would be if you had used a torque wrench. Be conservative.
"Just snug" is actually a pretty good idea because it doesn't take much tension to plug the hole and keep the oil in and, if you put a small screw-type hose clamp on the hex head of the drain plug, it won't come loose.
Good luck.