Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MECHANICAL & TECHNICAL => Topic started by: tbot on August 07, 2005, 11:19:19 PM
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Help. Lost the valve cover dowel pin inside the engine. I was only able to drop the oil pan an inch or so. I fished in there with a magnet, nothing. In order to drop the pan all the way, I need to take the headers off. They are so frozen, they just destroy my tools. Any suggestions?
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:duh:
Can you run the magnet down the passage the dowel fell down?
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I'm assuming that you heard it fall down INTO the engine? Are you sure its not sitting in one of the little pools of oil on either side of the cam shafts?
If it did fall down in the engine and what Paul said doesn't work, you have no recourse but to pull the header and drop the pan.
Dave
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If it did fall down in the engine and what Paul said doesn't work, you have no recourse but to pull the header and drop the pan.
Or turn the bike upside down and shake until it falls out.
:lol:
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Are those things made of steel or aluminum?
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I'm assuming that you heard it fall down INTO the engine? Are you sure its not sitting in one of the little pools of oil on either side of the cam shafts?
Come on guys. I'm hurtin here. When I lifted the valve cover, I heard that dowel tink it's way down into the engine. Unless I miss my guess, I think it went down the drain tube. I'm praying the dowel is in the pan.
Sending a magnet down the drain tube wont work.
Have any of you had to remove the headers??? I afraid I'm going to break a bolt off.
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I've had luck with stubborn old bolts on my boat by soaking them good for a day or so with penetrating oil. Wipe clean and use a torch to heat the bolt. Tap on the bolt with a hammer a few times, it can help. Keep trying and hope you don't twist the head of the bolt off.
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I did the same thing and was able to retrieve the dowel pin with a flexible magnetic pickup tool by removing the right side cover and fishing around the bottom of the engine/trans. There's enough room to maneuver a pickup tool under the gears. The pine came out the first time I tried!
You can't get down to the bottom of the engine case by snaking a magnet down the holes in the head.
Good luck!
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I've removed my headers to wet sand and clean them up . It was hard to break them loose . Just use a solvent like wd-40 or something and let it work in for about a day . Re-try next day . Hope it works .
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That sucks...
How did it happen did it fall as you were lifting the cover or during handling.
My bike is close to the first adjustment milage, and I would really like to avoid this scenario.
I have had luck with stubborn brake mount bolts by heating with MAPP gas and spraying down till they cool with BLASTER TM penatrating oil.
Pin
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Sending a magnet down the drain tube wont work.
If the passage was big enough for the dowel to fall thru, you can send a magnet down it. You might have to go get a magnet small enough to fit, and you might have to drill a hole in it and put it on a string...
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Come on guys. I'm hurtin here.
Didn't mean to make light of your situation. I bought my bike used and when I did my first valve adjustment on it I noticed that one of the dowels was missing. Anyway, I was freaking like you, wondering how much damage that thing did in the engine for over 8 thousand miles! I took a deep breath and lo and behold I found that SOB sitting in top of the engine in a small pool of oil. Its amazing that it didn't find its way down the cam chain tunnel or get wedged under a cam over that many miles... Thats why I said to check that... I didn't know your situation. Sorry.
Have any of you had to remove the headers??? I afraid I'm going to break a bolt off.
Heck yeah. Take mine off all the time for spring cleaning. Just soak those bolts down good with "PBlaster" and let em sit for a day or two. Then turn them out with an allen socket with nice even pressure. If they won't budge, then you might have to use a hand impact and put a little rap on them with a hammer while twisting. Works for me.... If they are all rusted up in there I'd be extremely carefull. If the bike has been stored inside, you won't have a problem.
Dave
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Well, I went and bought a breaker bar and broke the headers free. Scary, but they all came un-done. After that I dropped the oil pan. I had to go fishing up the oil drain tube from the bottom....but it was there and came out on my second poke with a magnet.
I've learned a lot. First, the oil sump screen would have stopped it from getting into the engine. I still would have been uncomfortable. Second, finding exhaust gasket is a bit.......still no luck. Have some on order.
The clearance is tight between the valve cover and frame. Advice: First remove the oil breather on top ot the valve cover. Then remove the fairing supports from the frame (4-10mm nuts). Next have someone watch for the dowels as you lift the cover (armed with a magnet). If you decide to check your spark plugs, do not leave them out for any length of time. Finally, when I put the dowels back in, I put some RTV under them to gaurantee they stay put next time.
As soon as I get the exhaust header gaskets, I'll be back on the road again. The cost fot this mistake: breaker bar $10, hex socket set $10, oil pan gasket $10, o-ring kit $10, header gaskets 4 @ 5.00 each, torque wrench $20, plus oil (change it a 200 miles back, it was clean). Yes, I needed some of this stuff anyway. But it still hurts.
My only fear now is that the re-used valve cover gasket might leak. Life goes on.
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Sending a magnet down the drain tube wont work.
If the passage was big enough for the dowel to fall thru, you can send a magnet down it. You might have to go get a magnet small enough to fit, and you might have to drill a hole in it and put it on a string...
Thanks, but the magnet sticks to everthing, including the drain tube walls. The tube is "s" shaped. You would have to use a flexible but firm magnet from the top or a firm one from the bottom as I did. Live and learn.
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As soon as I get the exhaust header gaskets, I'll be back on the road again. The cost fot this mistake: breaker bar $10, hex socket set $10, oil pan gasket $10, o-ring kit $10, header gaskets 4 @ 5.00 each, torque wrench $20, plus oil (change it a 200 miles back, it was clean). Yes, I needed some of this stuff anyway. But it still hurts.
My only fear now is that the re-used valve cover gasket might leak. Life goes on.
Look at the bright side, you still spent less than you would have at a dealer for the labor part of a valve adjustment and you got a bunch of new tools.
While the service manual tells you to replace all the gaskets in/on the valve cover every time you take it off, the truth is they can be re-used many times without problems (just put a dab of RTV on the spark plug tower gaskets to keep them in place and dabs at the cam plug corners). I'm at 37K miles and still have the original valve cover gaskets installed and the bike's been thru several valve adjustments. Even managed to get the main one a little pinched once, popped the cover, put it back in place, and it is still oil tight. I'd say it's time to change them when they get brittle, dry and/or cracked. As long as they're soft and pliable, they should be fine.
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This is the little culprit.
(http://www.bikepics.com/pics/pics/suzuki-gsf1200-00-bikepics-191861.jpg)
Mine sometimes stick to the head and sometimes they stick to the cover. I never know what they are going to do. You just have to keep and eye of them when pulling off the cover. I usually get someone to take one end of the cover while I take the other. After lifting the cover up, and find them stuck to the cover, we both slide our hand under them to keep them from falling out as we slide the cover out to one side of the bike. My kid and I are getting good at it!
Dave
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Tonight I started putting my bike back together. Then it began again, oh the horror! I put the gasket on the oil pan and got the pan bolts hand tight. I tighten the first one no problem. Number 2 snapped right off, and so did number three. Drop the pan again. Extract the weaklings ( I'm using a torque wrench) and start over. This time the Torque wrench is on the work bench, band from motorcycle work......
Well, I'm using a 3/8 drive ratchet and am tightening what I think is the last bolt when "POP!" What, not another one! NOPE, this time it was the pan, hair line crack right across the corner. Ugh! I add a little oil to the crankcase and a few minutes later the first drops form underneath. I'm sick,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :sad:
Tonights advice: buy an inch pound torque wrench. I bought a ft lb torque wrench. I tested it first and it worked fine, I really don't get it.
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Sounds like it's time for some JB Weld.
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That sux man.....I hope all works out.....keep us informed....DONT GIVE UP! Its a LifeStyle!
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Sounds like it's time for some JB Weld.
Haggling with a guy over used oil pan today. I hadn't occurred to me to try JB weld, thanks for the suggestion.
By the way, took a shower to cool off after my bike fiasco. Went into the kitchen and snapped off the ice cream scooper in the vanilla....it's still there. I went to bed. :sad:
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Dude - I'm not sure where in the world you are but assuming it's nowhere near me... please stay there until this passes. Please??? :stickpoke:
Sounds like a night for a lot of these: :bigdrink:
Hope you get her straightened out.
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Just leave the bike for a day, then come back armed with all the right parts, some new bolts that will be nice and strong, a clear head and go at it. Just think that your bike will have so many new parts - and remember all the good riding you will do in the future.
I did my valves last week, I thought I had a bit of a scare when I dropped the 8mm ring spanner down beside the cam chain, but it came out within 5 mins with a magnet - nothing like you've endured! I'd never thought about those dowels dropping down inside the engine, will have to take more care next time!
Just remember, It's only a motorbike.
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Those bolts don't need to be torqued. Just snug them up and you will be good to go. If you get a little weeping, which I doubt, just snug them a touch more.
Lesson learned... get one wrench that torques in in/lbs for the small stuff (cam cap bolts, front fork, valve cover bolts - be VERY carefull with those, spark plugs, etc) and a ft/lb wrench for the bigger stuff (Axle bolts, engine sprocket, etc).
Most of the non-critical bolts don't need to be torqued (engine cases, signal generator cover bolts, etc)
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For those of you following this story.
Yesterday, I traded in my Ft-lb torque wrench for an in-lb torque wrench. The torque speck I was using came directly from my Hanyes manual (10ftlbs). Never the less, when I cracked the pan, I wasn't using a torque wrench. The bolts just didn't feel tight and I over did it. The usual "maybe just a little bit more."
I went out and bought some JB weld. I also bought another oil pan off EBAY for $30 bucks including the shipping.
The JB weld failed on the first attempt. My fault I believe, I messed with it after only 6 hours drying time. Today (18hrs drying time) the JB seems to be doing the job. I'm going to let it set for another several hours before I clean off the excess in the gasket mating area. I am NOT going to use this pan unless I have too.
My new exhaust gaskets arrived. That's why the JB weld pan stays on the bench. I'm not spending any more money if I can help it. I'm assuming that once I mount the exhaust with the new gaskets, I can't take the exhaust off again if the JB weld pan leaks unless I buy more gaskets. I'm gonna mount the oil pan I bought off EBAY (if condition is satisfactory) and get an 8 year old to tighten the bolts. Once the exhaust goes back on, I'll be done.
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The JB weld job looks and feels great. I'm so tempted......... :motorsmile:
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it's good stuff trust me! if you cleaned it well it should hold like new! i have used it many times and have been happy with it! on the pakage it sayes if fixed a engine block! i have used it many times to put in pulley crank shaft seals on vw engines! let me tell you you have to split the al. seal housing and have it machined out if you want to split the cases! have all so seen it used to repair fuel tank! it is still holding today after 7 years!
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Another torque wrench tip (you may know this already. I learned it here...) A torque wrench isn't going to work properly if the threads on the bolt have oil on them. Give them a good wipe, and use an air compressor to blow out the receiving threads.
Good luck with the cracked pan. I heart JB weld!! http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=654&highlight=
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Another torque wrench tip...
For the "click" type, ALWAYS return them to zero or their lowest setting, when not in use. They stay accurate longer that way. Leaving one set above minumum stresses the internals and will make them inaccurate.
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Also remember that when using a torque wrench you will not get accurate readings with any burs (even invisible), or thread irregularities. This I find is more important that oil on a thread. Also try to get a bit of a swing going with the torque wrench, just swing and stop when it goes click - if the bolt breaks it needed replacing. Better to replace it when the bike is apart than have it break whe you ae riding somewhere. If you are real "woosy" with the T.W. and take little pulls, you can get a false reading - better to start using the T.W. when the bolt is just finger tight so you get a run on.
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The bolts that snapped off under torque broke too easy. I have already acquired replacements. The pan fracture though, really caught me off guard. As I mentioned in previous post, I put the torque wrench down and fractured the pan with a simple 3/8 ratchet handle. Now that I've had time to look at my disassembled bike, I can see that the corner of the pan broke due to rotational force applied while tightening the corner bolt. Weak pan? I don't know. It was the last bolt to be tightened (right side front). What I do know is that if Suzuki had used a separate bolt + washer setup instead of single bolt with washer attached, the rotational stress applied while tightening would have been relieved by the washer. The corner bolts (all corners) I use next time will have an independent washer.
I appreciate all the advice. My new pan hasn't shown up yet. The JB weld job looks better everyday. If Gas prices continue to rise, I may have to give the JB weld pan a shot.
I will continue to update this story until the B12 rolls out.
Bike>>>> http://members.cox.net/tdawk/IMAG00081.JPG
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The B12 took to the streets yesterday on a pair of new Metzler z6s I'd put on the day before this saga started. :banana:
The oil pan I bought off EBAY showed up Friday and I got started on reassembly first thing Saturday morning. The pan was in excellent shape. I immediately busted my knuckles getting the Oil Pressure regulator off the old oil pan. That was the worst thing to happen all day, woo who!
The oil pan went on without a hitch. I used a 1/4 inch drive ratchet for assembly to guarantee I wouldn't over torque anything, even though I'd picked an inch-lb-er, I still had no faith. I ended up replacing four of the pan bolts in the end. I'm also glad I purchased an O-ring kit because I ended up breaking the connection on the Oil Cooler lines to re-mount the exhaust header.
http://members.cox.net/tdawk/IMAG00081.JPG
All in all about two and half-hours work to put the B12 back together. I still had the tank and the fairings off. :thanks:
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Well, now that you are out of the woods, can I just say...
The ice cream scoop thing was a riot. Thanks for the laugh!
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You're not the only one, last week I had to drop the pan on mine to retrieve
1) the small nut on the fancy feeler gauges I bought.
2) the little plastic cap off the small screwdriver I was using to try to get the nut.
3) A feeler gauge.
Note to self...
Do not drink Crown Royal whiskey while doing a valve adjust.
I was amazed how fast things trinkle down that little tube though! :duh:
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I was amazed how fast things trinkle down that little tube though! :duh:
Yeah..... Crown is pretty smooth, huh??? :toofunny:
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I never had a chance. As soon as I began to lift the Valve cover, the dowel was on its way down the drain tube. Wish I had been liquored up at the time. :beers:
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Man I'm getting ready to do my valve adjust in a couple of months. Stories like this really freak me out! Esp. since I don't even know what the hell "dowel" you're talking about!
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The dowel in question is item #11 in the pic below.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/paulweit/Bandit%20Alley/cylinder_head_cover.jpg)
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There are two of them, they are catty corner under the cover. When you have all the prep work done and you are ready to lift. lift only high enough to see the little suckers. Grab them with a small pair of needle nose pliers lock wrench type. Do not tighten the cover bolts down that are into the journals till very last. Use a good grease on all the gaskets to re-assemble. Use blue lock-tite on right side cover lower bolt. Stuff rags into ALL openings while working.
I left my spark plugs in until the cover was off, glad I did.
I never did torque those journal bolts did the rest and just hand snugged those lotsa grease on the inside and outside gaskets.
PIN
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Well if all the good suggestions fail you can proceed with your valve adjustment and attach a speaker magnet to the pan so the pan can catch the pin after moving or starting the engine then after running it and nothing happens, the pin will be stuck to the pan if it was in the engine at all.
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There has got to be a way to remove the cover without the chance of this happening because last time I was just lucky as the vacuume from the oil held the pins in the cover until I could reach for them with one hand. What about placing a magnets at each point where the pins reside outside the engine so they will remain in the lower or upper half as you pull the cover off?
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I've started my valve adjustment, but have to do it in stages due to time constraints.
Question:
I have removed the plugs and stuffed paper towels down the hole to keep anyting out, they will be in there a couple days tuill I can get back to it. Is that a problem?
I have loosened (but not removed) the side fairings. I can now move them out and up a little. I can't get the buggers off and I don't want to break the fairings. Is this ok?
I have NOT removed the coils, throttle cables, nor have I moved the air filter back. Would rather not are these steps necessary?
I will be removing the oil lines today. Anything to be careful of?
Finally, I noticed in the maual they say to remove the "tower" on top of the cover. Might that not be a better way to improve clearance? Any reason NOT to remove it?
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On my 2G 600 I do have to remove the top "tower", as well as the Carbs, Throttle Cables and Coils and slide the Air Box back to get the cover off. I do NOT have to remove the fairing supports or touch the fairing.
I have found that I can do a valve adjust without removing the carb/move airbox, but this means I have to leave the cover on, just move it back and sideways and check each side, move cover again, etc. It is about 3mm away from coming off the bike. A much higher risk of knocking something in the engine, but less work than removing the carbs.
Your bike may be different, and I would like to hear how other guys do it.
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Removed seat, tank, spark plugs, AIS "box" (left hoses in place), disconnected oil "breather hose"
I have loosened the fairings so there is plenty of play "up" and "out" can't seem to get the dang things off and I don't want to break 'em.
If this is a 2G bike, you don't have to remove, or even loosen, fairing bits.
Question: Do I HAVE to remove the throttle cables, and ignition coils? This is on a 600s. Seems like there is enough clearance but I will if I have to.
I don't know why Blade says to do this. I've never removed either the coils or the throttle cables to pull the valve cover.
Second...the manual says to remove the "tower" (that's the little box that sits on the cover) but the blade's instruction make no mention of this. Removal of the "tower" may help with clearance?
I do remove the "tower" (aka breather box cover). With this off, the valve cover will come out without fussing with the fairing on the 2G bikes.
I don't know about the 1G, but I hear on them if you remove all the bolts that hold the fairing frame to the bike except one of the ones on the steering head (just loosen the one you leave in), you can tilt the fairing up to get clearance for the cover.
Thirdly...I am having to do this in stages over three days. Any harm in haveing the plugs out if I block up the holes with paper towels? should I maybe just leave the paper towels in?
Should be fine.
Lastly....do I use Permatex Gasket "Maker" or "Sealant"? I would think the Sealant would make more sense. Sounds like if I use Gasket "Maker" I would probably end up tearing the Gasket when I have to dothis in ANOTHER 7500 miles....
I addressed this in the thread on the board and gave the names of the Permatex products that are safe. I use the Ultra Black, mostly because any squeezeout won't show on my black engine.
When it's time for the next adjustment (or any other reason the cover comes off), you can just peel the stuff off and apply new. It won't hurt the OEM gasket. Mine's been off 4-5 times now and I'm still using the original gaskets.
Any help you can give with these questions would be great. THanks!!!!
No prob... HTH. :bandit:
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The dowel in question is item #11 in the pic below.
Conversely,.. I think I have a couple of extras from the rebuild. You may not want to ask, it's a bit of a sore spot.
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To get this straight, steel locating dowels are fitted loosely between cylinder head and valve cover and drop out when the cover is removed. The oil return from the cam wells is located nearby and these pins can drop into the wells? Why not JB Weld the pins into the valve cover or epoxy them? If you need to remove the pins for some reason, it would be easy enough to heat them up a bit and just pull them out since they seem to fit loosely. On the bikes I am used to working on, this type of dowel is hollow and you drive it into the hole and it must be removed with vise griips most of the time and unlikely to fall out.
The comments regarding the 3/8" drive torque wrench were interesting. The 10 ft/lbs of torque for a 6mm fastener are a tad high... these are generally 75-90 in/lbs of torque. If you did torque to 10 ft/lbs, that has to be the lower end of the scale on a 3/8" drive torque wrench and if you cracked a cover, the torque wrench is obviously not calibrated. If you make friends with a guy driving a tool truck, you might be able to talk him into testing the calibration... I would personally toss that torque wrench as the pan bolts don't generally crystalize and break since they are relatively cool and the cover should never break. I personally use a 1/2" torque wrench and 1/4" for all the torque wrenching that I do... the case bolts and cam cap bolts are all best done with a 1/4" drive. And keep in mind, as has been mentioned that torque specs are for dry threads.
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The dowels in question are supposed to be a tight fit, but it seems some folks have dowels that don't fit as tight as they should. I know I've never had one of mine come out.
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On the bikes I am used to working on, this type of dowel is hollow and you drive it into the hole and it must be removed with vise griips most of the time and unlikely to fall out.
Yup,.. also approximately the same size as a small socket. :shock: