Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: PeteSC on August 01, 2005, 01:13:27 PM
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If the police pull over another motorcycle riding with you, do you stop, also? (assuming the officer is not making any signal for you to stop, also.)
Last month, while riding in Colorado, Banditnek was following me on some twisty stuff near Lake City. An unmarked Suburban pulled in behind us, and eventually turned on his lights, and pulled Kent over.
We were maybe 10-15 MPH over on the curves....not too much in between.
I didn't notice the officer signalling me to pull over in my mirrors, or make any indication...so I continued on to the next safe place to park on the side of the road....1/4 mile or less up the road, and parked in plain sight.
I didn't think we were going fast enough to get a ticket, and was guessing Kent would get a warning, or maybe something looked funny with his license tag....since the cop was following us for a couple of minutes.
I parked, hoping Kent had all his papers in order, and was planning to ride back if he didn't show up in a few minutes.
A few minutes later, the Suburban drove by, and I waved at the officer.
Kent showed up right after with a verbal warning to pass on to me......
Just some thoughts, and questions on 'etiquette' regarding such situations...
Was it chickenshite of me to keep going, even though I did park a little bit up the road, in plain sight, although around another curve....in case the officer wanted me.
Was I opening myself up to 'elluding' charges from an overeager cop?
(I was on my DR650.....unless I headed cross country...I doubt I could outrun him too easily...)
If you are riding in a LARGE group, and the police just pick off the last bike, what would you do?
I admit, I didn't stop with Kent in case the cop turned out to be a jerk and was going to ticket both of us. There also wasn't any indication that he wanted me to stop, either, and I was looking.....
I DO stop when the police want to pull me over, but an incident 20 years ago convinced me to never 'be too willing' to comply with a 'less than direct' attempt to 'pull me over'. "Who, Me...you want me to pull over?"
I was driving a tractor trailer in TX, in a construction zone, going maybe 10 mph over the limit. Both sides of the highway were down to one travel lane, each, with 'jersey barriers' separating them.
A trooper passed going the other way....then I heard somebody call my truck by company name...(Easy to do with ten foot high lettering on the trailer.....) on the CB, and it was the trooper, telling me to pull off at the next off ramp and wait for him.
I did, and sat there 10-15 minutes....and was getting ready to leave, when he showed up. (Due to construction, it must have taken a long time for him to turn around......)
The trooper proceeded to write me a ticket, and I felt totally stupid for complying with the request over the CB radio to pull over.
Shortly after that....the CB was usually not even turned on in the truck, and a few years later, I didn't even bother to have one mounted in the truck.
What would you do, if a member of a riding 'group' was pulled over?
Do you pull over as a 'group' or act dumb, and not pull over unless an armada of police cars appeared.....or a road block......so that it's really 'obvious'!
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With the group I ride with, we established a rule that only the person the cop is targeting pulls over. I think it's probably the best way to do it, because you don't want to volunteer yourself for the cop to fill his quota. Plus, we assume that if an officer pulls a whole group over, he or she may be a little nervous based on the fact that at the moment, there are more of us. Then you've got to wait for back up to arrive, etc...
To keep things simple, only one person pulls over and the rest ride to the next diner or exit.
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:sad: I agree with Kamzilla. Especially with a NY State Trooper! If they mean to get the group they WILL LET YOU KNOW. I've personally seen a three car pull over. Don't volenteer, they might not be in the mood to get you all buuuuut since your here and I called it in :duh:
With the group I ride with, we established a rule that only the person the cop is targeting pulls over.
Kudos! Good idea- establish the rule before it happens. That way if someone you ride with gets stopped they want be suprized or think you wanna run. Also good to know if someone doesn't agree you will know you're in for an ass chewing when they catch up :shock:
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That's kind of how I feel....unless it's obvious they want all bikes to stop....anybody who can continue on...should go.
This isn't any attempt to suggest to anybody to attempt to outrun the cops.
I don't think Kent was pissed that I kept going. (Maybe would have been different if he got a ticket, and I didn't...though!)
4-5 years ago, another Bandit rider and I were speeding a bit on the Cherohala Skyway, and were waved over by a trooper standing on the shoulder of the road. THAT time it was obvious he wanted both of us.
:shock:
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The cop was blowing shi%& with the warning... he was just venting and power tripping on Kent, IMHO. If he woulda or coulda done anything, he would have stopped when he saw you down the road and nabbed you for fleeing.
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I agree with the sediments expressed here. Under the circumstances, I would have done the same thing you did.
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As a rule we, the group of good people that the minister of war and I ride with, we all pull over. Now I'm not having a go at cops in general, but, when they have more than 1 person to deal with, the attitude is mostly a lot more lighthearted, and warnings are more frequent than tickets. Now thats gotta be good, cause its not to often that we are being good. :duh:
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Disclaimer: This thread is not to be used to get out of a speeding ticket nor is it in any way to be accepted as the proper way to handle being stopped by the police. Also, this is not the procedure for VA State Police. This is one officer’s way of handling speeding bikes in a group.
I was interested in your situation so I asked my next door neighbor (a VA state trooper) what should be done in that instance.
When riding with two or more bikes in a group. He said that you would know when he wants to pull you over. If he comes up behind you and flashes the lights he has been pacing the last bike in line and it’s only that person he wants, the rest move on. If your whole group is speeding he will move to the left and go up front to the leader and point to each of you to pull over. Now this is where it gets tricky. He has to have enough room to safely move out and get all of you stopped safely. Getting someone hurt to serve a ticket is self-defeating.
So there it is Pete. You did the right thing.
One more thing. For two or more bikes being stopped, back up has been called and is rolling before he tells the first bike to pull over. So running is just a very bad idea.
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You did the right thing Pete. If the cop had wanted you, he would have told your buddy to stay put and driven after you. I wouldn't volunteer for a ticket.
Just as a point of order: If the cop gave you a warning it isn't a sign that he had no reason to pull you over to begin with. More likely is that your buddy displayed some common sense during the stop and the cop didn't think a ticket was necessary.
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Naw, this Cop was cool, according to Kent. He told Kent there had been a lot of livestock on the road recently, and for us to slow down.
I was leading Kent astray, fast enough to get a ticket, but not quite fast enough to make it worthwhile for the Cop.
When he pulled Kent over, I guessed it was either for a warning, or maybe for some violation he noticed on his bike. (Tag, etc,)
The Suburban had pulled out of a parking lot, as we exited town....and followed us a couple of miles. I saw it, but wasn't sure it was a cop, and slowly increased my speed a little.....offering Kent up as bait! :roll:
I literally gave a friendly wave to the guy when he passed me on the side of the road after he cut Kent loose. He passed me so quickly, I knew he didn't have time to write a ticket, or handcuff Kent.
:motorsmile: Of course, I kept my eye out for the vehicle as we rode on. He must have found a good place to hide......
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I'll never stop when another ride gets pulled over. I made that mistake once.... never again.
A buddy had just gotten his permit and I was riding with him on 684 in NY. He pulled into the left lane and went speeding away. About a mile later I see him pulled over so I stopped because he only had his permit and was supposed to be with someone that has a "senior" license (me). Long story short, I got a ticket for 78 in a 55 :wtf:
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I agree, you did just right. Legally bikes are no different than any other motor vehicle, right? So why should riding in a group be any different than if you are driving in a group of cars? I wouldn't have stopped either. If the cop wants both of you he would have made it known..
My complaint is that it is sometimes difficult to get an idea of what the officer wants from you when you are on a bike. Not too long ago I was riding locally. I was on a twisty country road minding my own business right about at the limit behind a car. An officer pulled in behind us, but just followed for a while. Eventually the lights came on. I pulled to the side expecting him to pass on his way to an emergency. I had done nothing wrong afterall, right? The car in front of me also pulled over. The cop pulled right in behind me and got on the PA. Between the full-faced helmet, traffic, and the crapy PA he had (remember PA in Charlie Brown?!) I couldn't understand what the heck he was saying. I tried to express this by turning around and shrugging at him. Eventually he very angrilly walked up to me and told me to get lost; he was after the car in front of me. I very sheepishly tried to explain I didn't hear his instructions, but he was having none of that. "Beat it!" He repeated. I didn't agrue, I just rode off.. I'll never understand what I should have done differently there..
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It sounds like the cop was either in a bad mood, really apprehensive about the car he was stopping, or possibly just a jerk.
Heck, sometimes in a car, it's hard to tell who they're pulling over.
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Having worked on a Traffic Unit before, I've got a few cents to throw in...
If I clock a group of vehicles travelling over the limit, I'm going to try and stop either the fastest vehicle in the group, or, if traffic is such that the only one I can get to is the last guy, I'll stop him. I have stopped up to three cars at once before; but I did this by pulling alongside the first and motioning for them to pull in behind me, then the next, then finally getting behind and stopping the third. In other words, if I want the whole group to stop, I'll indicate that; and will probably have someone on the way to nab the ones that get past me.
If you do stop as a group, however, I would suggest letting the cop deal with the one he's stopped without any interference. Traffic stops and domestic violence calls are statistically two of the most dangerous "routine" calls faced by police, and we tend to get a little loud when surrounded by a group of people yelling that we had no right to stop their buddy. Stay on the bike, wait for him to conclude the stop, and let your buddy join you when he's done. (As a side note, if you're lost and need directions or something short of a dire emergency, and see a cop on the side of the road writing a ticket and want to ask him your question, wait until he's done with the stop. Nothing annoys me more that having someone be-bop up to my car and start asking for directions while I'm trying to figure out if Bobby Scumbag with the suspended license and nervous demeanor wants to jump me rather than go to jail.)
Re: tickets vs. warnings... I gave a lot of warnings when I was on traffic. Maybe I'm just a softy; but I would stop you for whatever unsafe behavior I saw and, if I thought you would take that warning to heart and modify your driving behavior, I'd give a warning rather than a ticket. But I always hated hearing the "quota" crap. I never had a quota, was never suggested that I needed to get so many tickets a day. The gauge my bosses used was Did complaints and accidents go down, or not? If not, step up enforcement. If so, good job, keep up the good work. Quotas are illegal in my state. As for "Don't you have anything better to do"... no. No I don't. Press hard, five copies. :thanks:
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I'm with EODSarg,
In my 17years (so far) I've worked 6 as a motor cop and traffic homicide investigator. I also gave way to many breaks.
I think PeteSC did just the right thing. If the cop wanted you he would have motioned for you to come back, or, have stopped where you were after dealing with Banditnek.
I've stopped large numbers of bikes before, and the way I did it was to run to the front of the pack and motion for the front guy to pull over. Then I would turn around and in true wagon train fashion, I would give a big over handed pull over sign to the rest of the pack and we would all come to a slow stop. Worked every time. Usually when I stopped packs like that it was to give all of them a warning about what they were doing. The only time (twice) I gave anyone in a pack a ticket was when a couple of them thought they were Matlock and couldn't keep their mouths shut. :duh:
My response to the quota thing was "No I don't have a quota, I can write as many as I want". :banana:
I based most of the tickets I've handed out on honesty. If the person was honest and didn't try to come up with some type of outlandish reason why they did what they did, I'd give em a break 99% of the time. I'm gonna get beat up here but... women and young kids seem to lie A LOT :shock:
Okay, I'm off my soapbox.
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I say you all hit the throttle at the same time and make him work for the revinue!
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As a rule we, the group of good people that the minister of war and I ride with, we all pull over. Now I'm not having a go at cops in general, but, when they have more than 1 person to deal with, the attitude is mostly a lot more lighthearted, and warnings are more frequent than tickets. Now thats gotta be good, cause its not to often that we are being good. :duh:
Seems like good logic but from this cop's POV is no bueno. If I make a stop and I only want one particular car/bike/pedestrian I don't want the whole wagon train to stop with them. Anyone else who stops is automatically categorized as a possible threat or at least a distraction until they prove themselves to be otherwise (don't think real bad guys don't have contingency plans for getting stopped, they do). Anyone who stops that isn't invited to the party should expect to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not welcome there. One cop facing a whole bunch of anyone when he is trying to work is much less likely to be friendly than one cop facing only one person. I would much rather face a cop who feels in control of the situation than one who is tense because he feels outnumbered. Tense cops don't give friendly warnings, they invite their friends to come play, and then take care of business when those friends arrive. Its much better to let your buddy handle his business with the cop while you wait a nice comfortable distance away. Not trying to sound like a hard ass, just putting in my 2cents.
PS: 10 more tickets this month and I get a toaster :beers:
PPS: I hate writting tickets and only do it to slow down major speeders (10 - 15 mph over on city streets) or to address the gloriously stupid things some people insist on doing on the streets
PPPS: Bazza, I dig your trailer park avatar, very Canadian of you :bigok:
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Mr. Green, maybe it's different Down Under where no one is supposed to have guns. :wink:
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Mr. Green, maybe it's different Down Under where no one is supposed to have guns. :wink:
:thanks: :duh: Maybe so :duh: :thanks:
I really need to get out of the greater metropolitan LA shite box. Its making me a bit cynical and untrusting of my fellow man
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The :wink: and "supposed" were to indicate a little sarcasm. From what I've read, Oz seems to have more gun problems now that they're banned... or at least that's what the NRA is trying to tell us 'Mericuns.
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The :wink: and "supposed" were to indicate a little sarcasm. From what I've read, Oz seems to have more gun problems now that they're banned... or at least that's what the NRA is trying to tell us 'Mericuns.
You mean the criminals didn't give up their gats? I'm shocked! How uncivilized! The government really should do something about that.
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Red01 wrote:
The and "supposed" were to indicate a little sarcasm. From what I've read, Oz seems to have more gun problems now that they're banned... or at least that's what the NRA is trying to tell us 'Mericuns.
Don't believe everything you hear. We don't have more problems, it's just the old problems never actually went away. Besides we're not anywhere near as 'gun happy' as you blokes.
A mate of mine was in the 'states a couple of years ago (pre 9/11) and was shocked, horrified (shyte scared actually) when he got pulled over by a cop for a traffic infringment.
My mate did exactly the same as he does here. He undid his seat belt and got out of the car and reached in to his back pocket (to get his licence). Anyway, to cut a long story short, after being forcably 'placed' on the ground with a, and I quote "F^&*ing big gun" pointed at his head, the 'nice' policeman explained to his new found aussie friend that he best stay in his car with his hands in plain view, otherwise next time he might get shot.
Now, that's not likely to happen to the average person in Oz, unless you live in Vic. :lol: :lol:
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...I based most of the tickets I've handed out on honesty. If the person was honest and didn't try to come up with some type of outlandish reason why they did what they did, I'd give em a break 99% of the time. I'm gonna get beat up here but... women and young kids seem to lie A LOT :shock:
Okay, I'm off my soapbox.
Interesting to read your post. I'm 48. In my teens I made a decision that when I got stopped I'd just be non-commital about it. In other words, there's no excuse, so I won't make up one and whatever happens, happens.
I get stopped once a year or so ever since those days. My stops generally go like this, "Sir, the reason I've stopped you is I clocked you going 15 mph over the posted limit. Are you aware what the speed limit is?" "Yes, sir." "Any particular reason you were exceeding the limit?" "No, sir. I know better." Then I show my license and insurance card and cross my fingers the guy's not an @sshole on the oh-so-common power trip. He/she generally comes back with a warning and some good advice. I got one REAL ticket in the '80's, one in the '90's, and one a couple of months ago. Cleared them each time by taking the driver's ed course.
I think I've done pretty well. I know they're doing their job and I don't make it any harder for them. I haven't had to sue one for getting out of line, yet! :wink:
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Don't believe everything you hear. We don't have more problems, it's just the old problems never actually went away. Besides we're not anywhere near as 'gun happy' as you blokes.
A mate of mine was in the 'states a couple of years ago (pre 9/11) and was shocked, horrified (shyte scared actually) when he got pulled over by a cop for a traffic infringment.
My mate did exactly the same as he does here. He undid his seat belt and got out of the car and reached in to his back pocket (to get his licence). Anyway, to cut a long story short, after being forcably 'placed' on the ground with a, and I quote "F^&*ing big gun" pointed at his head, the 'nice' policeman explained to his new found aussie friend that he best stay in his car with his hands in plain view, otherwise next time he might get shot.
Now, that's not likely to happen to the average person in Oz, unless you live in Vic. :lol: :lol:
OK, so if the old problems haven't gone away, the gun control rules still haven't worked out so well, have they? :wink:
In my younger days, we used to get out of the car like that, but the officers haven't seemed to like that deal for 20 years or more. Yes, the police carry guns, (usually 9mm, 10mm, or .40 cal these days) and will pull them out if they fell threatened.
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My mate did exactly the same as he does here. He undid his seat belt and got out of the car and reached in to his back pocket (to get his licence). Anyway, to cut a long story short, after being forcably 'placed' on the ground with a, and I quote "F^&*ing big gun" pointed at his head, the 'nice' policeman explained to his new found aussie friend that he best stay in his car with his hands in plain view, otherwise next time he might get shot.
Where in the 'states was your buddy visiting? It couldn't have been either Arizona, where folks very politely carrys their pistols exposed on their hips, or Florida, where the good citizens carry concealed and are polite because no one is sure who is strapped. Your use of the adjective "nice" leads me to suspect he was in the city of Los Angeles. You see, if the cop is an LA County Sheriff's Deputy he will be more inclined to mother f@#k you (not nice) as he beats you bloody, whereas an officer of the LAPD, being highly educated in the finer aspects of interpersonal relations and imbued with a deep sensitivity for the plight of the downtrodden of society will make a point of calling you Sir (nice) as he beats you bloody.
How amazingly and strangely screwed up must we Yanks be to make even the wild and wooly Aussies scratch their heads at us. :stickpoke:
Oh well. At least we're not French.
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OK, so if the old problems haven't gone away, the gun control rules still haven't worked out so well, have they?
I don't think our problems were that great to start with, certainly not as bad as the 'states, if I can beleive the media, which I probably can't.
The gun laws were changed after a lunatic called Martin Bryant shot a number of people at a Tasmanian tourist destination called Port Arthur.
When I was an instructor in the RAAF one of my students was there when it happened, she was probably one of the luckiest people I've met - she hid under the counter at the Cafe. Unfortunately it's not a happy ending, she committed suicide a couple of years later.
Where in the 'states was your buddy visiting? It couldn't have been either Arizona, where folks very politely carrys their pistols exposed on their hips, or Florida, where the good citizens carry concealed and are polite because no one is sure who is strapped. Your use of the adjective "nice" leads me to suspect he was in the city of Los Angeles. You see, if the cop is an LA County Sheriff's Deputy he will be more inclined to mother f@#k you (not nice) as he beats you bloody, whereas an officer of the LAPD, being highly educated in the finer aspects of interpersonal relations and imbued with a deep sensitivity for the plight of the downtrodden of society will make a point of calling you Sir (nice) as he beats you bloody.
It wasn't LA, close though, they were on they're way to Anaheim to visit DisneyLand.
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As a rule we, the group of good people that the minister of war and I ride with, we all pull over. Now I'm not having a go at cops in general, but, when they have more than 1 person to deal with, the attitude is mostly a lot more lighthearted, and warnings are more frequent than tickets. Now thats gotta be good, cause its not to often that we are being good. :duh:
Seems like good logic but from this cop's POV is no bueno. If I make a stop and I only want one particular car/bike/pedestrian I don't want the whole wagon train to stop with them. Anyone else who stops is automatically categorized as a possible threat or at least a distraction until they prove themselves to be otherwise (don't think real bad guys don't have contingency plans for getting stopped, they do). Anyone who stops that isn't invited to the party should expect to be told in no uncertain terms that they are not welcome there. One cop facing a whole bunch of anyone when he is trying to work is much less likely to be friendly than one cop facing only one person. I would much rather face a cop who feels in control of the situation than one who is tense because he feels outnumbered. Tense cops don't give friendly warnings, they invite their friends to come play, and then take care of business when those friends arrive. Its much better to let your buddy handle his business with the cop while you wait a nice comfortable distance away. Not trying to sound like a hard ass, just putting in my 2cents.
PS: 10 more tickets this month and I get a toaster :beers:
PPS: I hate writting tickets and only do it to slow down major speeders (10 - 15 mph over on city streets) or to address the gloriously stupid things some people insist on doing on the streets
PPPS: Bazza, I dig your trailer park avatar, very Canadian of you :bigok:
Yes a valid point, and yes we are aware of the problem, we all pull up we all remain on our bikes we all remove our helmets, and we generally pull up 5 odd metres apart. and as I said generally speaking most cops after 2 or 3 minutes are cool and relaxed enough to talk to us as a group, but of course they have to make the first move. Now generally if they gonna do one of us for speeding they really are going to do us all. Now our point is it is better to deal with one cop than have every cop in the district lookiing for us after a APB is transmitted over the police radio, and some gungho young cop pulling a no brainer on some fun corner.
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It wasn't LA, close though, they were on they're way to Anaheim to visit DisneyLand.
Anaheim PD's unoficial motto is "Come on vacation, Leave on probation"
Of course since they are an Orange County (very republican, substantially wealthy) department they are more likely to use polite words while rendering justice. (can someone make a smily that snickers?) It amazes me, but I have gotten in trouble plenty of times for using uncivil language and never once been called on the carpet for pointing guns at people. :duh:
Thanks for being on the board Mick. I love hearing what's what in different parts of the world. Your description of how you do it makes me reconsider my position a bit. If I had a pack of Bandits do that I'd probably be ok with it as long as everyone kept butt in saddle until I said different. Now if a pack of OMG (outlaw motorcycle gang) dirt bags did that to me I'd probably have the AR-15 ready to come out of the rack, holler for the world to come help me and bunker down behind my car while trying to keep an eye out for their war wagon. (Ok, I'd do the same thing if it were a pack of Goldwings. Those guys are scary :wink: )
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After all of that, riding over here, seems so much easier :motorsmile: relaxed :motorsmile: and friendlier :motorsmile: even if we are being a little naughty :stickpoke:
Hey aussie, the last time we hit gods road, that was only being a little naughty wasn't it. :wink: :wink: :wink:
Hmm the mouth has gone all dry, and the leg is itching, just wondering how the ZRX will preform on gods road. Guess I'll have to make a return visit to the redback rally next year to find out. Not long now till it see's daylight again. hoping to have it ready for phillip island.
Now back to this thread. again the gun issue, and the banning of guns has raised its ugly head again. Banning law abiding citizens from gun ownership does not lower any gun deaths, or lower any crime rates, period, end of the bloody arguement. Use Aust as evidence. Has the murder rate dropped, No. Has violent crimes rates dropped, No.
Why cause people who still want a gun can still get one from the black market. The losers from gun prohibition, the law abiding citizen, the winners the black market, and crims, cause they know the likelyhood of a houseowner, having a gun to defend himself/ family/property, are very slim. And unfortunatly cops are not sitting on ever street corner, to protect us. Yes I'm pissed at the law, note the words law abiding gun owning citizens. Lowlifes and crims never used registered guns, and most likely never had a licence to own one. Fact, there is more guns buried in the hills than what got handed in. Why is this a fact, because it is a fact that you couldn't buy for love nor money a GPS or 300 mm pvc plumbing pipe with ends for months prior and after the law took affect.
Why because they the GPS's and the PVC pipe sold out like hotcakes.
Now being a smart cookie, put 2 and 2 together, I come up with there is a hell of a lot of guns buried in them there hills ladie's.
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Believe it or not it makes my happy to hear that some of you good folks down under had the good sense to hide your guns. I sure hope you remembered to use a good grease to coat and protect your fire sticks. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. (who ever said that sure was smart).