Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: Sven on July 29, 2006, 06:31:22 PM
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Whenever I browse ebay or Bandit accessory mechandise (or for other bikes as well), I see jack up kits, dog bones, etc. I kinda have the idea that they raise bike up off the rear shocks, and that somehow improves handling but that's about all I can glean from the sites/auctions I've looked at.
I'm not really in the market, but I would like to understand why/how they work, and where/how they are installed. Why does hiking the back end help? Seems like that would be helpful only in going over speed bumps!
Someone wanna give me the light once-over?
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PS: The dog bones look like they are the tie-rods, so maybe they are just longer tie-rods? If so, I understand where they go, but not how they are better.
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It is any kit that raises rear ride height , usually 35mm, by altering the rear linkage. By raising the rear you can quicken the steering due to the reduction in trail. Personally, I don't see the need to raise the rear, it just makes the bike look goofy with the a$$ end hanging up in the air.
A slight drop in the triples, 10mm is ideal, will also quicken the steering without raising the rear. So will going with a slightly shorter profile front tire, a 120/65 for example.
Raising the rear to gain ground clearance on the B12 should not be an issue on the street, if you are dragging suspension/chasis parts on street tires you should probably be riding a GSXR 750 instead.
Ride On, Ed.
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By raising the rear you can quicken the steering due to the reduction in trail.
OK, that's the essential piece of information that I was trying to get.
Not that I'm doing anything anyway, but a lot of people apparently are.
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OK, that's the essential piece of information that I was trying to get.
Not that I'm doing anything anyway, but a lot of people apparently are.
Some people also use a longer dogbone to lower a bike so it's closer to the ground. Good for us height challenged people. A shorter dogbone will of course do the opposite. Of course, as mentioned before, it does change the geometry of the bike, which should be compensated for with the forks if it's a significant change.
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I just had my brother-in -law cut me out a new set of bones for my bike out of stainless. Has a welding/fab shop with a cnc machine.)The stock ride hight is fine on the road ways,but the Bandit is limited for ground clearance on the track.(and maybe I should get a GSX-R) I still have to drill the holes,I'm going to try 3.5mm shorter and measure befor and after . It should be between 1 -1 1/2 " rise.
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Some people also use a longer dogbone to lower a bike so it's closer to the ground...A shorter dogbone will of course do the opposite.
This seems backward. The tierod/dogbone is a vertical piece, so longer would push the tail up, right?
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Some people also use a longer dogbone to lower a bike so it's closer to the ground...A shorter dogbone will of course do the opposite.
This seems backward. The tierod/dogbone is a vertical piece, so longer would push the tail up, right?
Nope. :wink: The shock is vertical. The dogbone is linkage under the shock (usually bolted to the bottom mount of the shock), and is a pivot piece. By lengthening the dogbone, the angle of the swingarm is changed, it's pushed lower. Effectively lowering the tail end.
I'll run out to the shed and grab you a picture of the way all of this works together. As "luck" would have it, we have a dirtbike torn down in the shed right now, so this stuff is all easily exposed.
Dita also has the ability to take a dog bone. If I can wiggle in between the two bikes. I'll see if I can get you a "bandit" shot too. The 919 on the other hand, is not built to take a dogbone.
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The shock is vertical. The dogbone is linkage under the shock (usually bolted to the bottom mount of the shock), and is a pivot piece. By lengthening the dogbone, the angle of the swingarm is changed, it's pushed lower. Effectively lowering the tail end.
ON my B12, what I'm assuming is the "dogbone" is called the "cushion lever rod" in the service manual. So, first, am I looking at the right part?
The shock absorber is vertical, and the two cushion rods are too; the shock and the rods are sort of an 45 degree angles from each other.
A shorter rod would seem to draw the bottom of the shock down closer to the ground and thus lower the back of the bike, while a longer rod would do the opposite, unless I am not following what's connected to what correctly.
I'd like to see the pix...one day this info will be helpful to SOMEBODY!
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ON my B12, what I'm assuming is the "dogbone" is called the "cushion lever rod" in the service manual. So, first, am I looking at the right part?
The shock absorber is vertical, and the two cushion rods are too; the shock and the rods are sort of an 45 degree angles from each other.
A shorter rod would seem to draw the bottom of the shock down closer to the ground and thus lower the back of the bike, while a longer rod would do the opposite, unless I am not following what's connected to what correctly.
I'd like to see the pix...one day this info will be helpful to SOMEBODY!
Ok,.. this is tough. It's easier in person, because you can make the funny motions that show what things do. :monkeymoon: But let's see if I can describe this.
You have 3 main pieces here that are responsible for changing the height of the rear on a linkage style of suspension. (there are linkage-less bikes that can't do this.)
1. The shock. Of course you can set the pre-load and stiffness of the shock and that will change the height of the bike. Now,.. one important piece of information here, is that the shock never moves, no matter which dogbone you put on it, it does not lengthen or shorten.
2. Dogbones. These are what I'm talking about geting shorter and longer ones. The dogbones are #13 in the part fiche that I'm posting. You have one on either side on this bike. Some bikes have one in the centre, some have the set up you have.
3. The rear cushion lever. The dogbones work in conjunction with the rear cushion lever set. In the fiche of your bike, that I'm posting, the cushion lever is #1( the weird sort of cross shaped piece.)
(http://members.shaw.ca/rmad/rearcushionlever.jpg)
The other half decided to get in on the fun, and mark up my pics for you. :grin:
On the CR250R that you're seeing, the rear cushion lever is sort of backwards to the one that you have on your bandit. But the theory is the same.
His bike (because my KTM dirtbike doesn't have linkage) shows the shock attached to the linkage ( same as your rear cushion lever ) and the left side dogbone ( his is a 2 dogbone setup like yours) attaches to both the frame and the rear cushion lever. What you can't see well in this picture, is the 3rd bolt hole on the linkage. It attaches to the swing arm.
Now,.. when you put a shorter dogbone (or set) onto the bike, the cushion lever is going to pivot (at the shock mount ), because the the shorter dogbone is forcing the the cushion lever to pivot toward the front of the bike. This pulls the -front- of the swingarm toward the ground, which pushes the butt of the bike upward. (Again, it's a pivot action.)
Think of the swingarm as a solid board. Whatever you do to one end, the other end will do the opposite.
(http://members.shaw.ca/rmad/lengthen1.jpg)
A longer dogbone will pivot the cushion lever toward the back, pushing it upward, drawing the backend downward.
(http://members.shaw.ca/rmad/shorten1.jpg)
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:clap: Nice job Stormie, except, I think lowering the bike with the longer bones (I think) does shorten the stroke of the shock.Because I had a set made 4mm longer than stock for my gsx-r shock and I had too much sag.Put the stock bones on and I was able to dial in my sag w/ preload.BUT.. the gsx-r shock that was designed to fit another bike may have had more room to begin with. So maybe it doesn't change the throw of the shock. I'll take measurments using the Works Performance shock when I shorten the bones to get more hieght. I may only go 3mm shorter,I want to keep as much trail as I can to get the ground clearance I need. Dan
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OK, I *mostly* follow that. It's hard because everything is indirectly connected so imagining what will move which direction is better with the pictures than with the exploded view (which is what I have in the service manual).
We both need to find something better to do on a Sunday, though! We're back to 99 here today, so a ride to lunch was about all I could take. Nice night ride for a couple hours last night though. Got home around 11:30.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. At least I know understand the point of the adjustment and how it works.
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:clap: Nice job Stormie, except, I think lowering the bike with the longer bones (I think) does shorten the stroke of the shock.Because I had a set made 4mm longer than stock for my gsx-r shock and I had too much sag.Put the stock bones on and I was able to dial in my sag w/ preload.BUT.. the gsx-r shock that was designed to fit another bike may have had more room to begin with. So maybe it doesn't change the throw of the shock. I'll take measurments using the Works Performance shock when I shorten the bones to get more hieght. I may only go 3mm shorter,I want to keep as much trail as I can to get the ground clearance I need. Dan
I mentioned what you said to the other half, and he said that the shock doesn't get compressed or stretched out, but that the change did aftect the sag and preload. I can't recall the specifics, but I'm sure he'll post if no one else can answer this better than I did. :wink:
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OK, I *mostly* follow that. It's hard because everything is indirectly connected so imagining what will move which direction is better with the pictures than with the exploded view (which is what I have in the service manual).
We both need to find something better to do on a Sunday, though! We're back to 99 here today, so a ride to lunch was about all I could take. Nice night ride for a couple hours last night though. Got home around 11:30.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. At least I know understand the point of the adjustment and how it works.
It would have been a much better explanation if you could see all the funny gestures I was making to illustrate it, while typing it. :stickpoke:
Pfft,.. I was doing tons in between messages. I managed to install the windscreen on the 919, wall mount my enlarger, put feet on my darkroom cupboards, and generally reek havoc and chaos in the darkroom. It's a real mess right now. :roll:
It was raining most of the day here, so there wasn't much point in trying to take the bike out. Had it been sunny, you would have been on your own to figure out the dogbones. :wink:
No problem. I'm glad to be able to make use of the info. I spent a lot of time trying to figure that stuff out when I was looking into the "lowering" options for the 919. Of course, as I mentioned, it doesn't have linkage, so I couldn't go the way we just discussed.
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..wall mount my enlarger, put feet on my darkroom cupboards, and generally reek havoc and chaos in the darkroom....It was raining most of the day here, so there wasn't much point in trying to take the bike out. Had it been sunny, you would have been on your own to figure out the dogbones.
Are you a professional photog or just a very able hobbyist?
You are the second Canadian to complain about rain this weekend. Not a very compelling complaint as the lower 48 are either on fire or simply drying up and blowing away.
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2005B12S:
It is any kit that raises rear ride height , usually 35mm, by altering the rear linkage. By raising the rear you can quicken the steering due to the reduction in trail. Personally, I don't see the need to raise the rear, it just makes the bike look goofy with the a$$ end hanging up in the air.
A slight drop in the triples, 10mm is ideal, will also quicken the steering without raising the rear. So will going with a slightly shorter profile front tire, a 120/65 for example.
Raising the rear to gain ground clearance on the B12 should not be an issue on the street, if you are dragging suspension/chasis parts on street tires you should probably be riding a GSXR 750 instead.
Ride On, Ed.
Given the choice to quicken steering for the street, where there are road hazards like potholes, speedbumps and such, I prefer to raise the tail and gain a little more ground clearance than drop the triples and loose some, but the same handling result can be obtained either way, it's just a matter of preference. Dropping the front is probably the easier & cheaper way to go though. It would also give you a little lower CG... but it will make it easier for the header collector to foul on obstales in the road.
I had shorter dogbones (35mm lift) on my B12 for a while, but when I went to the Busa shock, I went back to the stock ones since the Busa shock does some lifting (~30mm) on its own since it's longer than the stock shock. With the shorter bones the back tire came VERY close to contacting the ground on the centerstand, in fact, if the surface was dirty, the tire might make contact. With the Busa shock, the tire has ~0.20" clearance on the c'stand.
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Raising the rear is not going to give a measurable increase of clearance at the front of the bike. Only raising the front is gonna achieve that. Sure you are changing the angle, but you are not realistically gaining any more clearance at the front. BTW, I was not aware that the Bandit had any clearance issues on the street. I ride pretty hard and have never had any problems.
If I was concerned about fouling the bike on potholes or road debris, I think I would choose a different path to ride on as I don't think a 35mm lift on the rear is gonna help with any major obstacles.
Youre right, a drop in the triples is easier and in fact makes more sense. Coupled with some nice suspension upgrades that most folks agree are needed, the B12 can be made to steer much quicker with having its a$$ stuck up in the air.
I plan to run a 120/65 Power up front next and will update if any adverse handling issues come up after its installed.
Ride On, Ed.
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2005B12S:
Raising the rear is not going to give a measurable increase of clearance at the front of the bike. Only raising the front is gonna achieve that.
If only raising the front is going to give you a measureable increase of clearance at the front of the bike, then lowering it in the front will give a measurable decrease, right?
By raising the rear instead of lowering the front, you are avoiding that. While you may not get much of a raise up front, at least you're not loosing anything.
I guess we just have bigger speed bumps around here. I've seen a Bandit altered like yours drag its collector over a speed bump that I cleared (and I outweighed the other rider by 75-100 lbs). You don't have to be riding around at 9/10's to appreaciate ground clearance under the center of the bike. Casper Milktoast on his commute can appreciate it. Maybe down there in the Big D you don't ever have surprises in the road from damage caused over the winter, but in mountain states, frost heaves and other winter damage occur. The road that was so smooth and beautiful to ride last year can give you surprises the first time you ride down it this year. When you have summer down there, we have a season up here called "road construction" - so you may have to endure a mile of two of no pavement while you're connecting the twisties together. While there's no pavement, the road is not especially smooth, especailly when the pavement stops/starts. You're not likely to be riding fast thru here on a bike like a B12 or sportier, but the clearance can be a nice little extra to have.
It's all in what you want and what suits your needs.
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Are you a professional photog or just a very able hobbyist?
You are the second Canadian to complain about rain this weekend. Not a very compelling complaint as the lower 48 are either on fire or simply drying up and blowing away.
I would have to say "High seated amateur". I am being pushed to go pro from a few sources, and would likely do so if I could find the time to do so. Reno projects and the need to pay for them keeps getting in the way. :wink: I suspect that I will be giving up my "computer crap" around January ( Our bills will drop significantly when the lease on my truck is up and I turn it in and just pick up a beater for puttering about in the winter.), and be able to spend some time concentrating on the photography more then.
I dunno if I would consider that complaining. Me hollering "Enough already!" at 2am after the majority of the day, and most of the evening hours were occupied with rain might have been. :sad: This week looks like it might be pretty good though. Temps in the high teens (Celcius wise), so around 65 degrees most of the week. Warm enough to wear shorts, mow the lawn and weed the garden and be comfortable, but not too hot to ride.
Actually, you'll find the same in southern Alberta more often than not. I remember about 2 yrs ago, pretty much the entire crowsnest pass was on fire, and we were deluged with rain up here. Farmers were complaining here that their crops were drowning, and the farmers in the south were complaining that they were burning. (personally, I thought the farmers in the south had a better reason to complain.)
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If only raising the front is going to give you a measureable increase of clearance at the front of the bike, then lowering it in the front will give a measurable decrease, right?
I've seen a Bandit altered like yours
Hopefully it did not take too long to come to that first conclusion.
BTW, how do you know how his Bandit was altered. Or mine for that matter. How much drop was he running and how was the suspension set up? How much preload or sag was he running? What about springs?
We are only talking 10mm, and again I was not aware of a Bandit ground clearance problem to begin with. .
I believe about 50% of the stuff I read and mostly rely on my own personal experiences to create a knowledge base that I use to form my own opinions.
I have experimented with various degrees of front end drop on my B12 and have determined that 10mm is best overall. I have experienced no ground clearance issues at any time. We have shopping malls here in Dallas, speed bumps are not a problem. BTW, that is all firsthand knowledge.
As far as winter mountain roads, you have got me there.
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I would have to say "High seated amateur"...the farmers in the south had a better reason to complain.)
OK, that quote edit makes no sense when you read it, but just to summarize that I enjoyed the personal perspectives.
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Hopefully it did not take too long to come to that first conclusion.
No, not long at all. It was why I chose to lift the back rather than lower the front in the first place.
BTW, how do you know how his Bandit was altered. Or mine for that matter. How much drop was he running and how was the suspension set up? How much preload or sag was he running? What about springs?
OK, I don't know how much you're running... but the point I was trying to make is this persons bike is set up similar to mine, the main difference at the time being mine had a tail lift, and they had dropped the triples to gain the same effect. Both of use were running stock suspesion front and rear at the time. Since the bike was set up by her husband, and he's not a newby when it comes to bikes, I assume he had her preload and sag set for her correctly, but I don't know exactly what her setting were. And her bike was a 1G B6, which doesn't have quite as good a shock as the 2G B12... but I still outweigh her by a large amount, which should more than make up for the difference in the two shocks.
One other reason I preferred the tail lift was it reduced the leverage on the stock shock, which has the effect of making it a little stiffer, which is another bonus for someone still running a stock shock. (And this was a consideration a long time ago, too... I just forgot to mention it yesterday.)
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I used to drag my collector if I went slow over speed bumps in the parking lot with stock parts at stock setup, all stock but the rear shock preload at max setting. Now I have a B12 shock, preload set about in the middle and forks dropped about 1 inch. No more bumping the collector at all. So I'm thinking that stock B6 shock spring was just about strong enough to just bearly make the bike sit good in the showroom, not for riding.
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Since the bike was set up by her husband, and he's not a newby when it comes to bikes, I assume he had her preload and sag set for her correctly, but I don't know exactly what her setting were. And her bike was a 1G B6,
That was exactly my point, your comment about a bike "set up like mine" was pure assumption and an invalid comparison at best (B12 to B6). I especially liked the comparison between rider weight difference and shock varation from B12 to B6 - thats some real guesswork.
You obviously have no idea how a properly set up B12 with a slight drop in the triples is gonna handle (or how much clearance it has) because you have no personal experience with that setup. Enough said.
Notice I did not make any comments on handling with a rear lift (either a taller shock or a jack up kit), nor will I make any assumptions regarding this. I have no first hand experience with either setup. I simply said they look goofy with the a$$ end stuck up in the air and that there was a better alternative to quicken steering (IMHO).
To each his own, Ed.
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I used to drag my collector if I went slow over speed bumps in the parking lot with stock parts at stock setup, all stock but the rear shock preload at max setting. Now I have a B12 shock, preload set about in the middle and forks dropped about 1 inch. No more bumping the collector at all. So I'm thinking that stock B6 shock spring was just about strong enough to just bearly make the bike sit good in the showroom, not for riding.
Wow,
a 1 inch drop, B12 shock, and a 120/60 front tire with no dragging. Now thats real info.
BTW, nice B6.
Ride On, Ed.
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That was exactly my point, your comment about a bike "set up like mine" was pure assumption and an invalid comparison at best (B12 to B6). I especially liked the comparison between rider weight difference and shock varation from B12 to B6 - thats some real guesswork.
You obviously have no idea how a properly set up B12 with a slight drop in the triples is gonna handle (or how much clearance it has) because you have no personal experience with that setup. Enough said.
Notice I did not make any comments on handling with a rear lift (either a taller shock or a jack up kit), nor will I make any assumptions regarding this. I have no first hand experience with either setup. I simply said they look goofy with the a$$ end stuck up in the air and that there was a better alternative to quicken steering (IMHO).
To each his own, Ed.
Well Ed, I can speak from personal experience. The clearance on the B12 with stock suspension can leave something to be desired, especially on crappy pavement. There were times when I would drag a peg in tight corners, especially if the bike became unsettled mid-corner. Raising the rear fixes that issue. Dropping the front doesn't. So, if you like a "sporting pace," lowering the front is not a better alternative. If you ride a slower pace, drop the front so the collector sits on the ground for all I care. As far as the bike looking goofy, you're welcome to your opinion. I guess I'm into function over form.
And Paul, I don't think you weighed that much more than her, frankly.
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Well Ed, I can speak from personal experience. The clearance on the B12 with stock suspension can leave something to be desired, especially on crappy pavement. There were times when I would drag a peg in tight corners, especially if the bike became unsettled mid-corner. Raising the rear fixes that issue. Dropping the front doesn't. So, if you like a "sporting pace," lowering the front is not a better alternative. If you ride a slower pace, drop the front so the collector sits on the ground for all I care. As far as the bike looking goofy, you're welcome to your opinion. I guess I'm into function over form.
And Paul, I don't think you weighed that much more than her, frankly.
Well if you would have taken the time to get the full story you would see that "my setup" is very far from stock.
I'll clue you in:
Race Tech 1.0 springs in the front w/Gold Valves (sag at 30mm). 7.5 wt oil set 120mm from top (professionally done) - 10mm drop in triples
Works Performance rear shock w/reservoir (sag at 30mm) set up for 210 lb rider
I did not like the comment about another bike "set up like mine" and its apparent lack of ground clearance. It turned out to be an apparently stock B6 and an invalid comparison at best. That statement was made for shock value and when called on it, the truth became apparent.
Everyone knows that stock suspension componentss on most "bargin" bikes like the Bandit are sorely lacking, thats why the aftermarket companies are in business. I would not advise dropping the suspension on a totally stock Bandit, what exactly would be the point?
Maybe I'm way off base, but when you set up a bike properly with premium suspension components designed for your machine, raising the rear is totally unnessary and furthermore, a small drop in the front- 10mm for example- does a wonderful job of safely quickening up steering. If anyone does not understand that, I cannot help.
And you are right about opinions, the difference is that some are more informed than others.
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Wait, I guess I'm a little confused. I thought we were talking ways to quicken the steering on a bike with stock suspension, Ed. Changing the geometry on your bike is going to yield much different results than it would with a stock machine. Apples and oranges.
I guess you're not immune to a little invalid comparison now and then, either, eh?