Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: rg54669 on April 27, 2007, 12:13:03 AM
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I saw a post about this but I can't find it now. I believe someone said to bleed the brakes, but I am not sure why.
I replaced my front brakes last week and did everything by the book(what book, I don't really have one). Now the brakes are rubbing against the disc quite a bit. Any ideas on what I need to do. The last set of pads had a tiny bit of air between them and the disc.
I checked Ron Ayers and those puppies are $234 each. I am not really in the mood to fork out the 5 benjis.
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Sounds like your pistons may be binding in the calipers... usually because of a build-up of hard sludgy film or coating from the brake fluid heating up and baking on the insides of the calipers. When you replaced the pads you pushed the pistons into the cylinders farther than they were... thus getting into the dirt build-up.
Rebuild kits are cheap, and it's really not that hard to do it yourself. Then you can replace the fluid with fresh DOT 5 stuff that handles a lot more heat. Cleaning, replacing the seals and O-rings, and bleeding the system will give you factory-fresh brakes.
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Yes, what Zen Man said. You may be able to free them up. Put them in a vise, using air to preasure them out(not all the way out,keep your prying devise between the pads) I use laquer thinner or brake cleaner will do to spray and clean. Be carfull not to gouge up your pads working them nice and easy back in. Untill it works freely. Dan
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And more likely a build up of brake dust and road gunk on the piston (outer side of the seal ) cleans off easy with a very gentle rub with a steelo soap pad. This 9 times outta 10 will have ya brakes returning to a no drag postion.
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Then you can replace the fluid with fresh DOT 5 stuff that handles a lot more heat. Cleaning, replacing the seals and O-rings, and bleeding the system will give you factory-fresh brakes.
DO NOT use DOT 5 brake fluid in a DOT 3 or 4 system!!*[/list]
*Unless the DOT 5 container is very clear it is approved for DOT 3 & 4 systems.
DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone based and is not compatible with any polyethylene glycol based fluids, such as DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1. DOT 3, 4 & 5.1 are hygroscopic, but DOT 5 is non-hygroscopic, meaning when water gets in DOT 5, it separates from the fluid instead of staying in suspension like the others. Since water is heavier than DOT 5 brake fluid, water will settle in the low spots and can cause corrosion. Also, when the brakes do get hot, the separated water will boil much sooner than the brake fluid and you can get air in the system. If you're looking for a brake fluid that meets a higher boiling point than the stock fluid, then use DOT 5.1 (it boils higher than DOT 5 anyway).
Boiling Point Ranges
Type: Dry/Wet Boiling Points
DOT 3: 205°C (401°F)/140°C (284°F)
DOT 4: 230°C (446°F)/155°C (311°F)
DOT 5: 260°C (500°F)/180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1: 270°C (518°F)/191°C (375°F)
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Then you can replace the fluid with fresh DOT 5 stuff that handles a lot more heat. Cleaning, replacing the seals and O-rings, and bleeding the system will give you factory-fresh brakes.
Whatever you do, DO NOT use DOT 5 brake fluid!!
DOT 5 brake fluid is silicone based and is not compatible with any polyethylene glycol based fluids, such as DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1. DOT 3, 4 & 5.1 are hygroscopic, but DOT 5 is non-hygroscopic, meaning when water gets in DOT 5, it separates from the fluid instead of staying in suspension like the others. Since water is heavier than DOT 5 brake fluid, water will settle in the low spots and can cause corrosion. Also, when the brakes do get hot, the separated water will boil much sooner than the brake fluid and you can get air in the system. If you're looking for a brake fluid that meets a higher boiling point than the stock fluid, then use DOT 5.1 (it boils higher than DOT 5 anyway).
Boiling Point Ranges
Type: Dry/Wet Boiling Points
DOT 3: 205°C (401°F)/140°C (284°F)
DOT 4: 230°C (446°F)/155°C (311°F)
DOT 5: 260°C (500°F)/180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1: 270°C (518°F)/191°C (375°F)
Ok, sounds like you know what your talking about... however;
Is modern Dot 5 different than 20 years ago? Because myself and everybody else use to use it at the track in our race bikes, and I used it in all my street bikes too. Of course we always used it as a complete replacement fluid in fresh, clean, newly rebuilt systems, and never mixed it with other DOT-rated fluids.
I can't remember anyone. including myself, that ever had a lick of trouble with DOT 5. The fact that it isn't water-soluble gives it a more positive hydraulic reaction, no sponginess and no fade at extreme temperatures.
Of course, you have to take the precaution of keeping water away from the stuff, but that just entails keeping the lid on and don't leave your reservior open to the air to absorb water. No big deal, it says that on the label.
I'm not saying you're wrong, Red, but isn't your big red warning sign above a little overly dramatic? I mean, like I said, I've never seen one problem over years of using it. :roll:
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Check you container. It's probably DOT 5.1. DOT 5 is actually difficult to find. It also needs rubber parts that are made for DOT 5. If you mix silicone and glycol based fluids, you're asking for seal trouble. Seals can swell or fail, either one with the same ultimate results - no brakes. Unless you TOTALLY cleaned out the brake system, you run the risk of old fluid being left behind.
DOT 5 was popular on the race scene when it first appeared, but was abandoned by most because of the water thing. It works good *IF* you can keep moisture out, but good luck with that.
Likewise, don't use some other kind of hydraulic fluid in your brakes either. Back when I was in A&P school, the old guy that worked in our tool room thought it would be a good idea to top of his car's master cylinder with some aircraft hydraulic fluid (MIL-H-5606 for you airplane folks). Afterall, if airplanes use it in their brakes, it must be good stuff, right? He discovered this wasn't such a bright idea when he got to the first stop sign and his brake pedal was so firm it wouldn't move. He rode a bus to school for the next few weeks while he replaced everything in his brake system but the drums & rotors.
So, no, I don't think the big red warning is overly dramatic. I don't want someone to go put DOT 5 in their bike and think it worth the emphasis.
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I told you, it was 20 years ago. I don't have any now. It's been a long time since i did any racing or been around many racers.
It was Bel-Ray DOT 5 Silicone Racing Brake Fluid. White bottle, blue & black label. The fluid was blue in color.
It worked great and was a big improvement on the brakes at racing temperatures. Like I said, follow the instructions... don't mix it, keep it away from water, no problems.
But you're right, be on the safe side and use DOT 4 or the DOT 5.1. If the silicone stuff is that hard to find now then no worries. You don't need the racing stuff on the street anyway, it's nearly impossible to get your brakes that hot unless your going down 10 miles of steep mountain pass with a stuck-open throttle... :roll: :lol:
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I was just checking out Bel-Ray's site to see what they offer today. The only spot I found DOT 5 mentioned was on their V-Twin link, and when you click on it, it takes you to their Super DOT 4 stuff, which is what they list as the only brake fluid on any of the other pages, but when I put DOT 5 in their search engine, their DOT 5 silicone stuff does come up. Weird.
If you'd like to learn more details on brake fluid, check out:
StopTech's "Brake Fluid 1A" article (http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml)
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dammit red, you're on top of things! :yesno:
:clap:
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Yep, he's like a vulture perched in a tree above you... close your eyes for a second and he's sitting on your chest ready to pull your tongue out. :stickpoke:
:bandit: :bandit: :bandit:
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BTW Red, you "forgot" to mention this from Bel-Ray's site:
Bel-Ray Silicone DOT 5 Brake Fluid
#97700
Bel-Ray Silicone DOT 5 Brake Fluid is for all applications specifying DOT 5 silicone type brake fluid. It exceeds FMVSS Sec. 571.116 specification. When maximum performance is needed, Bel-Ray Silicone DOT 5 provides superior fade-free brake performance under the most demanding high- and low temperature extremes.
http://www.belray.com/consumer/product_results.fsp?category=&q=dot+5
:stickpoke: :bandit:
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I didn't "forget."
(http://roadtrip.arcticcircle.ca/2003/P7052639l.jpg)
There was no need to mention it because the Bandit - like most non-HD bikes - does not specify DOT 5 silicone fluid.
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I didn't "forget."
(http://roadtrip.arcticcircle.ca/2003/P7052639l.jpg)
There was no need to mention it because the Bandit - like most non-HD bikes - does not specify DOT 5 silicone fluid.
:worship:
Ha ha! Great pic! :lol:
Alright already... I promise I'll never mention DOT 5 again, ok? Sheesh!
We did a lot of experimemntal stuff at the race tracks back then... the DOT 5 worked great. But I get your point! :roll:
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Thanks for that, Paul. Your brake fluid "treatise" should be a sticky in the Tech section somewhere. Newbys need to know this stuff. Heck, we've all had guys ask us "What kinda oil should I use in my brakes ??", haven't we. I've actually made guys say "BRAKE FLUID" after they kept using the term "oil"
when discussing brakes.
Can you say "brake fluid", young Luke ???
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Just replaced my front brake pads. I cleaned up the pistons and did everything by the book. The pistons easily compressed back to retracted position using just my fingers. I did all the tricks such as waiting to torque the front wheel nut until I had spun the tire and hit the brake (and hold it)
Mine still has some drag. If I spin the tire as fast as I can (with it off the ground of course) it will turn exactly one additional turn on its own before stoppping. Sometimes 3/4 of a turn.
I took it out on the highway and ran it at 70 mph for about 20 minutes and then quickly pulled over using only the back brake, and I felt the rotors of the front brake. Mildly warm, easy to hold onto. When I use the front and back, the back is a lot hotter (due to a different brand of pad I have on the back that is much harder) The back also squeeks when I use it , when I apply more presssure the back brake squeek disappears.
Anyway, my conclusion is that it is normal to have a lot of drag when putting new pads on. Im sure that as the pads wear, the drag will be less, to a point where their is virtually no drag at all (As was the case with the original worn pads)
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One possibility is that you have a little air in the brake lines. Try bleeding the brakes as well.
Another possibility is that the master cylinder may be a little over full, which compresses the bladder slightly.
Either of these could be causing a little more drag.
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Thanks for that, Paul. Your brake fluid "treatise" should be a sticky in the Tech section somewhere. Newbys need to know this stuff. Heck, we've all had guys ask us "What kinda oil should I use in my brakes ??", haven't we. I've actually made guys say "BRAKE FLUID" after they kept using the term "oil"
when discussing brakes.
Can you say "brake fluid", young Luke ???
:grin: :grin: :grin:
I finally got around to doing something like that... I put it in the General FAQ.
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No offense, Red... Considering your strong bias against DOT 5, I had resigned myself to letting this go. But now you put it in the FAQ, and I think your big red warning is misleading and unfair.
Speaking as one who has actually used DOT 5 silicone brake fluid, I know of no problems with it as long as you do not mix it with glycol based fluid. When we used it for racing we always drained and flushed our brake systems thoroughly before installing it. Never had any adverse effects on any components, and it out-performed glycol fluid by far.
I took the time to do some research:
DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid
Clearco DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid is a bluish-purplish viscous fluid formulated for use in hydraulic brake systems at ambient temperatures ranging from –55∞C to 55∞C. The fluid is identified by military symbol BFS and NATO code No. H-547.
Meets Mil-PRF-46176, Mil-PRF-46176B, DOT 5 & SAE J 1705 (Society of Automotive Engineers)
DOT 5 provides corrosion protection and lubrication of the brake system components. In comparison to DOT 3 & 4 fluids (glycol-based fluids), Clearco DOT 5 it is a highly compressible fluid. In addition, it has a higher dry boiling point (260∞C) and wet boiling point (180∞C). Clearco DOT 5 will not damage paint as well.
Clearco DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid is compatible with SBR, EP, Neoprene, Natural Rubber and other brake material systems.
Features:
Blue-Viscous Fluid
Silicone Based
Non-Flammable
Highly Compressible
High Temp Serviceability: 55C
Low Temp Serviceability: -55C
Will not damage paint
Will not absorb moisture
http://www.clearcoproducts.com/specialty_silicones.html
The military uses it because of it's superior qualities such as non-flammability and non-corrosiveness. We used it at the track because of it's outstanding ability to withstand high temperatures over hours of racing without fading... which came in pretty handy in endurance racing.
Here's a little info from Dragtech, it's copyright protected. 3rd paragraph down:
http://www.dragtech.com/html/brakes.html
Bel-Ray is not the only company that makes DOT 5. Besides Clearco above, there are several others:
"Russell's long life DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid was developed for severe service and competition applications. Complies with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard #116, and will not boil at temperatures up to 500ƒ F. Russell Silicone Brake Fluid is not hygroscopic (it will not absorb moisture from the air) and will not damage paint or chrome. Not compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids."
http://www.russellperformance.com/tech_center/motorcycle_brake_fluid.htm
Castrol also makes silicone racing fluid (SRF):
CASTROL SRF Brake Fluid
Recommended for racing conditions only - this is the ultimate in racing brake fluid!
Wet Boiling Point 270C / 518F
Dry Boiling Point 310C / 590F
Available as 12-pack cases of 1 Litre Bottles
Castrol SRF Racing Brake Fluid is an ultra high performance product formulated specifically to satisfy the ever increasing stresses placed upon the braking systems used in international motorsport. Castrol SRF is less hygroscopic than conventional brake fluids - it absorbs less water in a given time. Secondly, unlike conventional glycol ether fluids, Castrol SRF reacts chemically with the absorbed water to reduce its adverse effects, thus preventing the fluid's high temperature performance and safety margins from deteriorating as rapidly as they would otherwise do.
It's ability to withstand temperatures in excess of 300 C, and its superior resistance to the effects of absorbed water, have established Castrol SRF as the world's premier fluid for the hydraulic brakes used in all forms of motorsport.
TECHNICAL NOTE: Mixing Castrol SRF and conventional brake fluids will reduce the benefits of Castrol SRF. It is strongly recommended that conventional brake fluid be drained from the system before flushing and re-filling with Castrol SRF.
http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/access.htm
And most disc-brake Harleys specifically call for silicone DOT 5.
HEAVY DUTY DOT 5 SILICONE BRAKE FLUID
Heavy Duty (formerly Golden American) Superior Silicone Brake Fluid Exceeds DOT 5 specifications.
Designed for all Harley disk brake systems where DOT 5 silicone brake fluid is specified
Retains high boiling point even after years of service
Non-hygroscopic - does not absorb water
Provides good lubrication between metal-to-rubber and metal-to-plastic parts in master and wheel cylinders.
Many brake fluids deteriorate over the years due to water absorption and chemicals degradation. Heavy Duty DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid retains its highest boiling point (over 500oF) over the years since it is non-hygroscopic, chemically stable and is essentially inert to system components.
Description
Heavy Duty DOT 5 Brake Fluid is silicone brake fluid which virtually does not absorb water and, as a result, it prohibits brake system corrosion. Its physical properties do not deteriorate with time, and it ensures long-term braking performance under extremely high and low temperatures.
Scroll down to bottom: http://www.spectro-oils.com/gadata.htm
I could go on, but I think your'e getting my point. :stickpoke:
Now Red, with all due respect, I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this board, and I'm not trying to start this whole thing again, but I think you need to take another look at this one.
Granted, it may have been my mistake to just recommend using it without any warning about mixing it, I should have explained it better... but I would use it again today if I was going racing again. It's great stuff. :wink:
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No offense taken. :bandit:
I had a big, long, response to this all made up, and I was just about ready to hit submit when my browser crashed and I lost it ALL! :boohoo:
I should already be in bed, but I'll make this one quick(er).
I took the time to do some research:
But not quite enough... :wink:
DOT 5 provides corrosion protection and lubrication of the brake system components. In comparison to DOT 3 & 4 fluids (glycol-based fluids), Clearco DOT 5 it is a highly compressible fluid. In addition, it has a higher dry boiling point (260∞C) and wet boiling point (180∞C). Clearco DOT 5 will not damage paint as well.
All nice features... except one. You do NOT want high compressibility in a hydraulic fluid - especially brakes.
From Sportbike Solutions' "Everything you ever wanted to know about brake fluid (but wished you hadn't asked)" (http://www.sportbikesolutions.com/motorcycle-articles/brake-fluid.htm):
So why don't you see any sportbikes coming off the showroom floor with silicone fluid? For one reason and one reason alone. . . compressibility. That's the one difference that, despite all their shortcomings, makes glycol-based fluids the only real choice for performance automobiles and motorcycles alike.
Here's a little info from Dragtech, it's copyright protected. 3rd paragraph down:
http://www.dragtech.com/html/brakes.html
I guess you missed the tip at the bottom?
:btw: The red text is THEIRS, not mine. :crackattack:
Drag Tech Tip: The experts recommend not using a silicone type brake fluid in your race car; a better choice would be a high temp glycol type brake fluid. Silicone brake fluid may not damage your vehicle’s paint job, but sure will compress under high temperatures, AVOID SILICONE BRAKE FLUID!
Castrol also makes silicone racing fluid (SRF):
CASTROL SRF Brake Fluid
Recommended for racing conditions only - this is the ultimate in racing brake fluid!
Wet Boiling Point 270C / 518F
Dry Boiling Point 310C / 590F
Available as 12-pack cases of 1 Litre Bottles
TECHNICAL NOTE: Mixing Castrol SRF and conventional brake fluids will reduce the benefits of Castrol SRF. It is strongly recommended that conventional brake fluid be drained from the system before flushing and re-filling with Castrol SRF.
This is actually good stuff and IS miscable with DOT 3 & 4 and is certified as a DOT 4 fluid, even though it is silicone-based - though it's performance will be severely degraded if mixed with something else. If you're spending the $75/liter for it, you sure don't want that!
And most disc-brake Harleys specifically call for silicone DOT 5.
Again, from Sportbike Solutions' "Everything you ever wanted to know about brake fluid (but wished you hadn't asked)" (http://www.sportbikesolutions.com/motorcycle-articles/brake-fluid.htm):
Silicone fluids aren't excluded entirely from the motorcycle industry, however. Many 'show over go' cruisers come off the floor with the purple stuff (the color of DOT 5 silicone fluid and I'll be willing to bet, OEM's aren't using Castrol SRF - Red01), which is often a suitable alternative for bikes that rarely break the speed limit in school zones, sporting paint jobs that cost more than a single family home. But if performance is your game, glycols are the only show in town. You won't see a production sport or dirt bike rated for anything else.
I could go on, but I think your'e getting my point. :stickpoke:
Yup, I think so... you just couldn't let it go. :stickpoke: :lol:
Now Red, with all due respect, I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this board, and I'm not trying to start this whole thing again, but I think you need to take another look at this one.
Granted, it may have been my mistake to just recommend using it without any warning about mixing it, I should have explained it better... but I would use it again today if I was going racing again. It's great stuff. :wink:
Thanks... I think. :wink:
I guess if you can't fight with the Gunner, you can fight with me. :lol: :lol: :lol:
I promise not to turn it into a personal attack.
Yet. :bandit:
OK, I looked at it again. I checked out your links and found more myself. Unless you want to spend $75/L for your brake fluid, I'm sticking to my guns.
Dammit, this was supposed to be short and it's almost as long and time consuming as my first try... Oh well.
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And I'm sticking to my guns too. :bandit:
The only real argument against DOT 5 is the compressibilty factor.
Quoting your post: "So why don't you see any sportbikes coming off the showroom floor with silicone fluid? For one reason and one reason alone. . . compressibility."
In real life, it's really not that noticeable, especially if you have steel-braided lines. If you had ever actually used the stuff yourself, you'd know that. :stickpoke:
In racing, the brakes get very hot very quickly, and with the glycol fluid, any compression advantages go away fast. With the silicone, they do not fade at all as the brakes heat up.
Ask yourself this... if DOT 5 was as bad as your'e trying to make it out to be, then why is it recommended and used so extensively in high-end racing? Why are there so many manufacturer's making and selling the stuff? Why does the military use it exclusively?
Look, you and I can come up with plenty of pros and cons, but my main objection is your dire warning all written up in big red letters as if anyone who uses DOT 5 is gonna die horribly or something. That's sorta misleading, dontcha think? I mean, the issue of compressibility hardly warrants hitting the panic button like that. :roll:
Red, CWO has nothing to do with this, I kinda resent your remark about me arguing with you because he's gone: "I guess if you can't fight with the Gunner, you can fight with me." You came down pretty hard on my comment suggesting DOT 5. I just wanted to state the facts, share my own experience and give it a fair perspective. I've done that, so I'm gonna stop now. :motorsmile:
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One possibility is that you have a little air in the brake lines. Try bleeding the brakes as well.
Another possibility is that the master cylinder may be a little over full, which compresses the bladder slightly.
Either of these could be causing a little more drag.
If you don't have one, try to pick up a Mity Vac. That little doodad makes bleeding a lot simpler. Think I only paid about $20 for it a couple years ago. You should be able to find one at an auto store or even Wallyworld.
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Red, CWO has nothing to do with this, I kinda resent your remark about me arguing with you because he's gone: "I guess if you can't fight with the Gunner, you can fight with me." You came down pretty hard on my comment suggesting DOT 5. I just wanted to state the facts, share my own experience and give it a fair perspective. I've done that, so I'm gonna stop now.
That was TOTALLY tongue-in-cheek... and why I qualified it with THREE of these> :lol:
I was not coming down hard on you personally, I just wanted to make the point that you DO NOT want to mix DOT 5 silicone fluid with any DOT 3 or 4 glycol-based system.
Compressibilty isn't the only thing, but it IS a big enough thing to be reason enough not to use it all by itself. Don't forget, even in one of the links you provided, they say compressibilty is a big issue - and recommend it NOT be used in your race car!
For me, and the reason I put it in big red letters in my original statement and left it that way when I copied it into the General FAQ is its non-compatibility with glycol-based fluids (with the exception of Castrol SRF liquid gold) is also a BIG issue. The fact that mixing a DOT 5 fluid in a DOT 3 or 4 system that hasn't been completely purged will turn the fluid to sludge is a HUGE safety issue.
The fact that it's non-hygroscopic is also still an issue, even though it is harder for water to get in, it still can, and when it does, makes it even more compressable if you do get things hot enough to boil the water (still 212*F at sea level when not under pressure). Just the link I gave last night didn't talk about that.
Considering the FAQ is intended to answer the question of what to service your bike with, you simply do not want to add DOT 5 rated fluid to a DOT 4 rated system and if you do, the results can be disasterous, therefore, the big red letters, I feel, are still worth the effort to call attention to the matter. (Likewise, if you have a Harley or other machine with OE DOT 5, I would strongly say do not add DOT 3, 4, or 5.1 to it.
The only silicone fluid I could find that would be safe in a glycol system is the silicon-ester based Castrol SRF - which is rated as DOT 4, not DOT 5... and I haven't found anywhere where it says it's safe to put SRF in a DOT 5 system.
Here's another link for you to read:
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_brakefluid_1a.shtml
And a few key excerpts:
Ah ha, you say - but what about the much touted Silicone based brake fluids? They are non hygroscopic and should take care of the reduced boiling point and corrosion problems. True! That’s the good news. That is why they are specified by the U.S. Military. Unfortunately the silicone based fluids are compressible themselves so they produce a soft pedal all by themselves. For the person who doesn’t care about a spongy pedal or precise modulation silicone fluids may well be the answer - but not for anyone reading this. In fact, low compressibility is a desired characteristic in a high performance brake system – lower compressibility results in more linear force output for driver input and improved driver feedback.
We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast
when dealing with modern hydraulic braking systems a numerically higher DOT rating is typically considered to be compatible with a lower DOT rating (except for DOT 5, of course).
Why the heck do we use brake fluids that absorb water in the first place?
Believe it or not, one of a brake fluid’s most vital characteristics is its ability to absorb water. Yes, you read that correctly – brake fluids absorb water by design and that is really a good thing.
What?
Whether we like it or not, water is everywhere and finds its way into everything. That’s just the nature of the beast. Even our brand-new sealed brake system will eventually absorb water given enough time.
The magic of diffusion allows moisture in the air to permeate microscopic pores in the rubber brake hoses, the nylon master cylinder reservoir, and the various rubber seals in the hydraulic system. Sadly, there is nothing we can do about it and if left unchecked the water would sit in our brake system and rot it away from the inside out.
Hence the need for brake fluid to absorb this unwanted house guest. Because brake fluid absorbs water into solution, the local concentration levels are typically low enough that corrosion is slowed dramatically. As an added benefit, when exposed to low temperatures, the solution state prevents the water from pooling and freezing on its own. While water in brake fluid will certainly increase the solution viscosity at low temperatures, this is much more desirable than having little chunks of ice plugging up the system!
So why is silicone-based DOT 5 fluid more compressible than other fluids?
On their own, silicone-based DOT 5 fluids are entirely different animals than DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluids. In addition to having characteristically higher dry and wet boiling points, they also tend to have much, much lower viscosities. In other words, they flow more easily relative to temperature.
One side effect of this chemistry is that there is more “room” for air to fit in-between the individual molecules of brake fluid than in DOT 3 or DOT 4 fluids. Note that we are not talking about big bubbles of air here which are visible to the naked eye, but rather microscopic amounts of air which are finely dispersed (entrained) in the brake fluid matrix.
Now, all fluids have a certain amount of compressibility to start with, but adding even the smallest amount of air into the solution can dramatically increase the amount of elasticity in the system. In the case of silicone-based fluids, air is quite happy to take up residence between the brake fluid molecules, and as a result the fluid compressibility goes down. This is felt at your foot like stepping on a big spring. As you can imagine, more air = more spring.
Near as I can tell, today's high-end race machines are using high end Castrol SRF fluid (which is rated DOT 4) or other top quality "Super" DOT 4's or 5.1's - because of compressibility issued discovered from racing with DOT 5 years ago.
If after all of this, you still want to use DOT 5, go for it. I'm not here to stop you. I'm just giving you the info so you can make an informed decision. Just be sure your system is completely clear of any glycol based fluids.
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I was not coming down hard on you personally
I know that, but you did have an extremely negative reaction to my comment recommending DOT 5. :roll:
I just wanted to make the point that you DO NOT want to mix DOT 5 silicone fluid with any DOT 3 or 4 glycol-based system.
In that case, your warning should read "Do not ADD DOT 5 silicone brake fluid to glycol DOT 3 or 4.... or MIX it together, etc., etc.."
Simply sayng "WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T USE DOT 5!!!" is misleading and unfair.
Compressibilty isn't the only thing, but it IS a big enough thing to be reason enough not to use it all by itself. Don't forget, even in one of the links you provided, they say compressibilty is a big issue - and recommend it NOT be used in your race car!
And other links highly recommend using it in your race car or race bike. I've used DOT 5 first-hand with great success. Many companies produce and sell it and many customers buy it and use it with great success. That's the facts, not an opinion.
We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast
I really had to laugh at that. Where has this guy been? I'd like to see him make that statement to any of the many race teams that are currently using it and winning races with it. :lol:
The fact that mixing a DOT 5 fluid in a DOT 3 or 4 system that hasn't been completely purged will turn the fluid to sludge is a HUGE safety issue.
Sludge? Where did you see that? :shock:
Though I agree that mixing it is not recommended and potentially dangerous, most of the links provided say that it will only reduce efficiency, nothing about SLUDGE.
The fact that it's non-hygroscopic is also still an issue, even though it is harder for water to get in, it still can, and when it does, makes it even more compressable
Again a totally debatable matter of opinion. Just like compressibilty, which is not that extreme in the real world. And corrosion, which most sources agree that silicone protects against much better than glycol.
All these arguments are debatable. You and I have already found many sources both pro and con. FOR EVERY NEGATIVE SOURCE YOU FIND, I CAN FIND A POSITIVE ONE. This can go on forever. My point remains regarding your dire warnings.
Considering the FAQ is intended to answer the question of what to service your bike with, you simply do not want to add DOT 5 rated fluid to a DOT 4 rated system and if you do, the results can be disasterous, therefore, the big red letters, I feel, are still worth the effort to call attention to the matter.
Calling attention to the dangers of mixing the two types together is one thing. Your FAQ post is based more on your biased opinion towards DOT 5, which you've never even used yourself. Your knowledge is only based on what you've read.
FAQ posts should be based on pure FACTS alone, or at the very least, valid first-hand experience.
If after all of this, you still want to use DOT 5, go for it. I'm not here to stop you. I'm just giving you the info so you can make an informed decision.
Red, how many times must I repeat myself? I HAVE used it. I've trusted my life to DOT 5 many times on the race track... as many people have, and still do! Not once has it failed me! Can you find any evidence that DOT 5, used properly, has ever caused a crash?
No offense bud, but your "info" is partly factual, and partly debatable opinions found on the net. I do have FIRST-HAND experience. The only reason I can think of why you dismiss that is that you must not believe me. That's ok, it's disappointing, but that's your perogative. :roll:
And as far as ME not letting it go, look who's talking! :stickpoke: :lol:
I still think you are one of the most knowledgeable people on this board, and I have great respect for your experience and common sense. But nobody is right 100% of the time. :motorsmile:
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This is starting to sound like a lot of OIL threads I've seen. :roll:
At least we are both being respectful and keeping it CIVIL. Thank you for that.
Personal attacks are completely uncalled for, I know you have not attacked or insulted me, and I am puposefully avoiding doing the same to you.
We are friends, after all. I'd really enjoy going for a ride with ya, and discussing this over a beer or three. :bandit: :motorsmile:
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Maybe a new thread??
Did the guys brakes get better or not? Not sure if I saw that or not.:lol:
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I was not coming down hard on you personally
I know that, but you did have an extremely negative reaction to my comment recommending DOT 5. :roll:
I only came down hard on your original post because of the difficulty in getting ALL the DOT 4 fluid out. You do not want DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 coming in conact with DOT 5. It's just plain unsafe.
I just wanted to make the point that you DO NOT want to mix DOT 5 silicone fluid with any DOT 3 or 4 glycol-based system.
In that case, your warning should read "Do not ADD DOT 5 silicone brake fluid to glycol DOT 3 or 4.... or MIX it together, etc., etc.."
Simply sayng "WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T USE DOT 5!!!" is misleading and unfair.
Considering the extreme difficulty in getting all the DOT 4 out to put DOT 5 in when you can only clean brake systems with brake fluid purging or complete disassembly and cleaning with brake cleaner, I still don't think it is unfair.
Compressibilty isn't the only thing, but it IS a big enough thing to be reason enough not to use it all by itself. Don't forget, even in one of the links you provided, they say compressibilty is a big issue - and recommend it NOT be used in your race car!
And other links highly recommend using it in your race car or race bike. I've used DOT 5 first-hand with great success. Many companies produce and sell it and many customers buy it and use it with great success. That's the facts, not an opinion.
Every site I've found that's got an article on brake fluid performance says DOT 5 is not for racing & high performance use due to compressibility and the problem only gets worse as the fluid temp rises, despite its high boiling point. They do admit it is used by the military & show vehicles for its other properties. The links you've given either agree or are sales sites for a particular brand of DOT 5.
We won’t even discuss DOT 5 fluids as they are completely unacceptable to the high-performance enthusiast
I really had to laugh at that. Where has this guy been? I'd like to see him make that statement to any of the many race teams that are currently using it and winning races with it. :lol:
That was written by James Walker, Jr. Here's his bio:
James Walker, Jr.
StopTech Consultant
James Walker, Jr. is currently the supervisor of vehicle performance development for brake control systems at Delphi Energy & Chassis. His prior professional experience includes brake control system development, design, release, and application engineering at Kelsey-Hayes, Saturn Corporation, General Motors, Bosch, and the Ford Motor Company. Mr. Walker created scR motorsports consulting in 1997, and subsequently competed in seven years of SCCA Club Racing in the Showroom Stock and Improved Touring categories.
Through scR motorsports, he has served actively as an industry advisor to Kettering University in the fields of brake system design and brake control systems. In addition, Mr. Walker contributes regularly to several automotive publications focusing on brake system analysis, design, and modification for racing and other high-performance applications. He is a recipient of the SAE Forest R. McFarland Award for distinction in professional development/education. Mr. Walker has a B.S. in mechanical engineering from GMI Engineering & Management Institute.
To find out more about Mr. Walker and scR Motorsports, visit their website at http://www.teamscR.com.
So I guess he's full of BS because he's not a world champion? :lol:
The fact that mixing a DOT 5 fluid in a DOT 3 or 4 system that hasn't been completely purged will turn the fluid to sludge is a HUGE safety issue.
Sludge? Where did you see that? :shock:
Though I agree that mixing it is not recommended and potentially dangerous, most of the links provided say that it will only reduce efficiency, nothing about SLUDGE.
Castrol SRF is the only silicone fluid that's safe to mix with glycol fluids, but then it's rated as a DOT 4, not 5. The Castrol site doesn't say if it is or is not compatible with DOT 5.
Hmmm... I'm wondering if your own prejudices are jading you so that you don't see the words when they're right there in front of you. In the Sportbike Solutions link they said in the second paragraph, third sentence - on:
(Emphasis is mine.)
Mixing the two within your brake system, even in small amounts, can result in the formation of a thick sludge, which naturally doesn't make for very effective braking action. Inadvertantly combining the two mandates not only a thorough drain and flush of the affected brake system, but in some cases, a rebuild of the entire system. If you're thinking this could possibly wind up being a very costly mistake, you're quite correct. So the bottom line is this: If your bike started life with glycol-based fluid, stick with glycol. If it came with silicone, stick with that. And if you feel like mixing them - fine - just make the check out to Sportbike Solutions. And leave the amount blank.
The fact that it's non-hygroscopic is also still an issue, even though it is harder for water to get in, it still can, and when it does, makes it even more compressable
Again a totally debatable matter of opinion. Just like compressibilty, which is not that extreme in the real world. And corrosion, which most sources agree that silicone protects against much better than glycol.
What is opinion to debate? :headscratch:
There's no arguement that water vapors will permeate the rubber/rubber-like compounds of hoses and reservior covers.
It is fact that silicone doesn't attract water like a sponge the way glycol does, but water WILL eventually get in and when it does, it's fact that since it is heavier, it will sink to the lowest point.
It is fact that the lowest point is the caliper which is also the first to heat up during use.
It is fact that boiling water releases air into the system.
It is fact that water will corrode the materials today's calipers & pistons are made of.
Compressibility is a fact, even the makers of DOT 5 tell you that.
It is fact that the hotter DOT 5 gets, the more compressible it gets.
It is also fact that glycol based fluid, because of its hygroscopic nature, needs to be changed more often.
It is also fact that since the water is in suspension in glycol fluids, it will not boil at 212, but will degrade the boiling temp of pure glycol fluid.
Compressibility is DOT 5's #1 detractor. The rest you could live with, especially if you changed it on a regular basis like you are supposed to do with glycol fluids.
All these arguments are debatable. You and I have already found many sources both pro and con. FOR EVERY NEGATIVE SOURCE YOU FIND, I CAN FIND A POSITIVE ONE. This can go on forever. My point remains regarding your dire warnings.
You claim DOT 5 is still popular with racers. Find me some sites to back that up. To my knowledge, DOT 5 fell out of favor with racers almost as fast as it came it in. It was purported to be the next best thing for racers when introduced, but the compressibility issues quickly put the brakes on that... pun intended.
Calling attention to the dangers of mixing the two types together is one thing. Your FAQ post is based more on your biased opinion towards DOT 5, which you've never even used yourself. Your knowledge is only based on what you've read.
FAQ posts should be based on pure FACTS alone, or at the very least, valid first-hand experience.
I've given plenty of facts in this and other posts as well as the PM's we've exchanged. Even with a brake engineer to back me up. The ball is in your court now. You find an industry engineer that backs you up.
If after all of this, you still want to use DOT 5, go for it. I'm not here to stop you. I'm just giving you the info so you can make an informed decision.
Red, how many times must I repeat myself? I HAVE used it. I've trusted my life to DOT 5 many times on the race track... as many people have, and still do! Not once has it failed me! Can you find any evidence that DOT 5, used properly, has ever caused a crash?
You need to step out of the past and realize DOT 5 is not the be-all, end-all of brake fluid technology anymore. Time and technology have marched on. Castrol SRF DOT 4 is widely recognized as the best, but there are several other Super DOT 4 or DOT 5.1's that are almost as good - and don't cost $75/liter like SRF does.
No, I can't easily find you crashes caused by DOT 5 because the most likely case would be a racing accident from years ago.
No offense bud, but your "info" is partly factual, and partly debatable opinions found on the net. I do have FIRST-HAND experience. The only reason I can think of why you dismiss that is that you must not believe me. That's ok, it's disappointing, but that's your perogative. :roll:
I believe you didn't experience troubles. OTOH, I can't dismiss the facts presented by industry experts either, and if I have to choose between an ametuer racer and several industry experts, I'm sorry, but you loose. I believe I've been open-minded and admitted to the advantages DOT 5 has, but it does have a major detractor. YOU say it's no big deal, but several performance experts disagree. (Here's an opinion >>> ) IMHO, it is for this reason that we don't find DOT 5 on every car, truck & bike out there, but instead find DOT 4 in 99% of the vehicles on the road and can't walk into the local discount auto parts store and pick up a bottle of DOT 5 from both major and discount brands. I don't know about where you live, but I can't even find a major brand on the shelf. Granted, I haven't walked into the Harley shop though.
Speaking of Harleys & DOT 5... Today at work, I wandered thru the bike parking and looked at the Harleys. 5 had DOT 4 spec'd on the front master cylinder covers, 1 had DOT 5 and the other two had custom covers with no markings. The DOT 5 bike was an older non-Evo Sportster, all the others were fairly new.
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Do you two ever stop? You've both made your points and it looks like neither of you are going to give up.
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I only came down hard on your original post because of the difficulty in getting ALL the DOT 4 fluid out. You do not want DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 coming in conact with DOT 5. It's just plain unsafe.
Considering the extreme difficulty in getting all the DOT 4 out to put DOT 5 in when you can only clean brake systems with brake fluid purging or complete disassembly and cleaning with brake cleaner, I still don't think it is unfair.
Then why not explain it that way in the FAQ? Instead of inferring that even the proper use of DOT 5 will be "disasterous"? :roll:
Every site I've found that's got an article on brake fluid performance says DOT 5 is not for racing & high performance use
That is completely contradictory with the fact that name-brand companies are producing silicone fluid and selling it as racing fluid for competition applications:
"Russell's long life DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid was developed for severe service and competition applications."
"CASTROL SRF Brake Fluid (SILICONE)
Recommended for racing conditions only - this is the ultimate in racing brake fluid!"
And another brand (Cartel), sold by Ire Racing :
"Silicone Brake Fluid (DOT 5)
Non Hygroscopic -Does not absorb water- thus eliminating corrosion and deterioration.
Dry boiling point exceeds 600 deg.
Compatiable with DOT 3, DOT 4, and foreign brake fluids.
Compatiable with natural and synthetic rubber compounds.
Never needs replacement.
Doesn't harm painted surfaces.
Lubricates moving parts.
Simple changeover - just perform normal brake bleeding job.
Packaged in 8 oz., 32 oz., 5 gallon and 55 gallon drums."
http://www.lreracing.com/silicone_brake_fluid.htm
And then you keep going on about compressibilty... from your PM:
From your Clearco link:
"In comparison to DOT 3 & 4 fluids (glycol-based fluids), Clearco DOT 5 it is a highly compressible fluid."
As I said before, highly compressible is not a good feature for brake fluid.
Again, quoted from the Dragtech link:
"Less compressibility of brake fluid will increase pedal feel (firmness), but in either case the effect is minimal."
As a matter of fact, I remember the slight sponginess of the silicone fluid... but as I've stated several times now, the effect is barely noticable, and the huge advantage of having fade-free brakes over the fade-fast glycol bikes made it more than worth it.
You still fail to answer important questions I've put to you... such as:
"If DOT 5 was as bad as your'e trying to make it out to be, then why haven't there been any lawsuits against all these manufacturers that make and sell it as racing brake fluid?"
Or:
"Can you find any evidence that DOT 5, used properly, has ever caused a crash?"
Or:
"How can you dismiss the fact that DOT 5 is fade-free, and thus gives a huge advantage over fade-fast glycol fluid?"
If you going to continue to ignore certain facts or questions I've stated, then why should I put all the effort forward to debate the rest of your long post? As I've said, for every con, there is a pro, and I'm tired of playing this game.
I'm wondering if your own prejudices are jading you so that you don't see the words when they're right there in front of you.
The very same thing can be said of you, my friend. :stickpoke:
I think "winning" this debate is more important to you than being objective, and you are trying to wear me down with long quotes and arguments. I think your own prejudices and need to defend your original position prevents you from conceding my points. :stickpoke: :wink:
I think that you painted yourself in a corner with your initial extreme reaction and ensuing negativity towards my DOT 5 comments, and now you'd rather drag it on forever than admit you over-reacted. :stickpoke: :wink:
No problem, I've found myself in that position before too, and being just as stubborn, also found it difficult to find a graceful way to concede. :roll:
Therefore, I'm going to stop here. I really mean it this time! :bandit:
I don't want an unending argument about brake fluid to come between friends, and I do consider you one. In fact we are a lot alike, stubborn as mules. I'm looking forward to meeting you someday and laughing about all this. :lol:
I'll even bring the DOT 5 if you bring the beer... :bandit:
No hard feelings. :bigok:
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Do you two ever stop? You've both made your points and it looks like neither of you are going to give up.
You're right. This is unfair to all the rest of ya'll, I'm sure you are not the only one tired of it.
So I'm stopping right here and now. I mean it! :bigok:
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We can always rename the thread "Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Brake Fluid"
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"everything you wanted to know about brake fluid but were afraid to hear a response to", :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just kidding guys, it's been an informative debate. From a purely personal standpoint I find it very annoying that when I do research for something and see articles and 'tests'. It's hard to know what to believe, 'where's the money' is what I usually ask myself but realistically it's so easy to hide that sort of thing.
Now back outside to bleed my brakes...
(oh and even after following this post...I'm not sure how I feel about DOT5., once a skeptic always a skeptic.)
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(oh and even after following this post...I'm not sure how I feel about DOT5., once a skeptic always a skeptic.)
DO NOT USE![/size]
DOT 5 will ooze out of your garage at night, sneak into your bedroom and choke you to death! Then set your house on fire!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I only came down hard on your original post because of the difficulty in getting ALL the DOT 4 fluid out. You do not want DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 coming in conact with DOT 5. It's just plain unsafe.
Considering the extreme difficulty in getting all the DOT 4 out to put DOT 5 in when you can only clean brake systems with brake fluid purging or complete disassembly and cleaning with brake cleaner, I still don't think it is unfair.
Then why not explain it that way in the FAQ? Instead of inferring that even the proper use of DOT 5 will be "disasterous"? :roll:
Just for you, I have removed all the red and bold text and re-re-edited the article. In the interest of fairiness, I've spelled out things more clearly.
Every site I've found that's got an article on brake fluid performance says DOT 5 is not for racing & high performance use
That is completely contradictory with the fact that name-brand companies are producing silicone fluid and selling it as racing fluid for competition applications:
"Russell's long life DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid was developed for severe service and competition applications."
That's a vendor advertising his product! I said articles on fluid performance. :duh:
"CASTROL SRF Brake Fluid (SILICONE)
Recommended for racing conditions only - this is the ultimate in racing brake fluid!"
And it is rated as a DOT 4!
And another brand (Cartel), sold by Ire Racing :
"Silicone Brake Fluid (DOT 5)
Non Hygroscopic -Does not absorb water- thus eliminating corrosion and deterioration.
Dry boiling point exceeds 600 deg.
Compatiable with DOT 3, DOT 4, and foreign brake fluids.
Compatiable with natural and synthetic rubber compounds.
Never needs replacement.
Doesn't harm painted surfaces.
Lubricates moving parts.
Simple changeover - just perform normal brake bleeding job.
Packaged in 8 oz., 32 oz., 5 gallon and 55 gallon drums."
http://www.lreracing.com/silicone_brake_fluid.htm
OK, I'll give that one to you. You found a DOT 5 fluid that IS compatible with DOT 3/4. And @ $10.50 for a 12 oz bottle (on another site, your site didn't give a price), it seems a bargain in performance fluid. :thumb:
And then you keep going on about compressibilty... from your PM:
From your Clearco link:
"In comparison to DOT 3 & 4 fluids (glycol-based fluids), Clearco DOT 5 it is a highly compressible fluid."
As I said before, highly compressible is not a good feature for brake fluid.
Again, quoted from the Dragtech link:
"Less compressibility of brake fluid will increase pedal feel (firmness), but in either case the effect is minimal."
As a matter of fact, I remember the slight sponginess of the silicone fluid... but as I've stated several times now, the effect is barely noticable, and the huge advantage of having fade-free brakes over the fade-fast glycol bikes made it more than worth it.
Is 2-3x more sponginess minimal? (That's from the brake systems engineer on the stoptech link.)
And the fact that it gets even worse when the fluid is hot?
I guess it is to you and the folks at the Dragtech link.
And still, even though this effect is "minimal," the Dragtech site still has some reason to say not to use it in a race car.
You still fail to answer important questions I've put to you... such as:
"If DOT 5 was as bad as your'e trying to make it out to be, then why haven't there been any lawsuits against all these manufacturers that make and sell it as racing brake fluid?"
Because it has a place. Generally, it's not the top choice for performance. You found one that was, two if you count the expensive DOT 4 rated Castrol silicon SRF.
You still have failed to provide non-advertising articles that tout it, or named any of all those racing teams that use it.
Or:
"Can you find any evidence that DOT 5, used properly, has ever caused a crash?"
I tried to look, but I don't have the time. Given its realitive unpopularity in use, and the fact that its unlikely to be a current headline item. When race drivers had to pit to change their shorts after sinking brake pedals scared them and they converted back to glycol, it may even be non-existant.
Where's the crash data for DOT 4 used properly, if it's such a fade problem? :crackattack:
I, for one, like a firm brake pedal/lever and while that may not be a big deal to you, it is to me... that's opinion. :wink:
Or:
"How can you dismiss the fact that DOT 5 is fade-free, and thus gives a huge advantage over fade-fast glycol fluid?"
Who's ignoring what? Have you looked at the numbers of DOT 5.1 & Super 4? They meet and exceed DOT 5 standards... and are readily available at nearby parts stores at affordable prices and can be installed in your common, everyday DOT 3 & 4 system simply.
If you going to continue to ignore certain facts or questions I've stated, then why should I put all the effort forward to debate the rest of your long post? As I've said, for every con, there is a pro, and I'm tired of playing this game.
Because I did more than regurgitate ad copy... and all I'm asking is you do the same.
I think "winning" this debate is more important to you than being objective, and you are trying to wear me down with long quotes and arguments. I think your own prejudices and need to defend your original position prevents you from conceding my points. :stickpoke: :wink:
I think that you painted yourself in a corner with your initial extreme reaction and ensuing negativity towards my DOT 5 comments, and now you'd rather drag it on forever than admit you over-reacted. :stickpoke: :wink:
No problem, I've found myself in that position before too, and being just as stubborn, also found it difficult to find a graceful way to concede. :roll:
:lol: I have conceeded to valid points. I have even went in and changed the FAQ to reflect that, yet you still refuse to accept there are good products out there that meet or beat DOT 5 basics and pose no risk to the hazards of changing from one system to the other.
...have we even mentioned that DOT 5 is not suitable for ABS systems in the public part of our debate? I suppose this is important since there's ABS versions of the 1G B12 and the new 1250.
Therefore, I'm going to stop here. I really mean it this time! :bandit:
I don't want an unending argument about brake fluid to come between friends, and I do consider you one. In fact we are a lot alike, stubborn as mules. I'm looking forward to meeting you someday and laughing about all this. :lol:
I'll even bring the DOT 5 if you bring the beer... :bandit:
No hard feelings. :bigok:
I'm not as stubborn as you. :wink: :tongue: :stickpoke:
I may be the mule, but you're the camel. :lol:
Keep the DOT 5, bring tequila instead. :singing:
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:shock: This just in....
I got this PM from Zen:
I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track.
:thanks: Z! I finally got a point across. :clap:
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program... :bandit:
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:shock: This just in....
I got this PM from Zen:
I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track.
:thanks: Z! I finally got a point across. :clap:
Now, back to your regularly scheduled program... :bandit:
Hey, I was gonna put that up here... :roll:
Well, if you're gonna post my PM, then post the whole thing, not just the part where I actually conceded something:
When try as I might to see why you are such an adamant supporter of it
Actually, my main objective from the start of this whole thing was to convince you to change your FAQ post from the big, scary red warning "WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T USE DOT 5 BRAKE FLUID!!!" to something more objective, informative, and unbiased.
I see you've done that. Thank you... much better! :congrats:
just extreme cold weather, show vehicles, antiques and one source that recommended it for vehicles that sit for long periods of time without moving... which some show & antiques might fall under.
Well, we've come a long way from "disastrous results", haven't we? :wink:
But I have conceeded on some points. You seem to be completely unyeilding to the facts presented that DOT 5 is not today's best high performance brake fluid.
I'm still waiting for your industry supporting links. :stickpoke:
Well, you're gonna wait a long time. I'm pretty much satisfied with your new FAQ post. I don't see much point in doing this: :deadhorse: or this: :yesno: anymore. :lol:
I will concede there are other choices these days besides DOT 5 that will work as good or better on the race track. What I liked the most about the stuff is it's resistance to fade versus the quickly-fading glycol. After 5 or 6 laps, it becomes a huge advantage when out-braking the competition into the corners. The sponginess wasn't a big deal.
So, as you've probably seen in the "Brake Drag" thread, I'm all done now. The natives are getting restless, time we gave them a break. It was fun though, aye? :bandit:
Yer buddy Zen :grin:
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Keep the DOT 5, bring tequila instead.
Oh no! Not tequila! Every time I drink that stuff I end up in jail... :iddi:
How 'bout some nice Coronas with a little Jim Beam to wash them down with? :bandit:
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Do you two ever stop? You've both made your points and it looks like neither of you are going to give up.
I've seen married couples that didn't take this long to settle an argument :lol:
I was wondering if you did get your brake issue figured out.
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I've seen married couples that didn't take this long to settle an argument :lol:
I was wondering if you did get your brake issue figured out.
Not really. I just finally let her (oops- I mean HIM! :lol: ) have he... uh, HIS way. :roll:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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:roll: Whatever... :duh:
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:roll: Whatever... :duh:
Just farkin' with ya, buddy! :lol: :wink:
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LMAO! What was the original question?
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Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.
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Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.
There was a conclusion....when did that happen? :stickpoke:
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Actually, there never was an original question - just statements and a conclusion.
There was a conclusion....when did that happen? :stickpoke:
It all happened in the first post.
Look how far we managed to drag that out. :lol:
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Well, thank you, Red, for your diligent efforts to collect all the facts. You pretty much put together all the stuff I've read about DOT 5 over the last 10 years or so into one thread. You've got my vote on this one....no doubt about it. Your case is absolutely proven, IMO.
And, at the end of it all, if DOT 5 is recommended for HD's for quite a number of model years, would anyone need a better excuse NOT to use it ??? :grin: :grin: :grin:
Yeah, I know, now I'm going to get flamed by all the HD owners...... :roll: :roll:
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Holly Jeezers! :lol: :duh:
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Well, the fact is, I seem to be the only one here that's actually used DOT 5, and quite extensively. But apparently that doesn't count. :roll:
Look, this thread doesn't need to be dragged out anymore... I've already conceded that today's modern brake fluids are as good or better than DOT 5, so it's a moot point.
All I've said from the beginning is it's not the horrible, dangerous stuff that some folks tried to make it out to be. It has it's drawbacks, but if used properly, it works quite well... and it helped me beat a lot of guys into the corners on the track. The sponginess is highly exaggerated.
But if it makes ya feel better, I haven't used it for years, since I quit racing. And in the unlikely event that I start racing again, as in vintage old-guy class, I'd probably go with the newer DOT 4 or 5.1... Ok?
Can we let it die now? :roll:
Sheesh!
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I've heard that DOT 5 makes for GREAT blinker fluid. REALLY crisp, regular flashes. All the really cool guys are using it!
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Pfffffttt! Don't use that junk... use genuine Blinker Fluid!
My personal favorite is KaleCo brand blinker fluid. (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=6)
(http://kalecoauto.com/images/BlinkFluid.jpg)
Are you blinkers sluggish? Do they make an annoying ticking noise? Do they not flash fast enough? Here's your solution. Little do people know, factory quality blinker fluid should be changed every 150,000 blinks. Our blinker fluid lasts ten times that. KaleCoAuto high quality synthetic blinker fluid meets the highest DOT standards while not being in the least bit DOT legal! KaleCoAuto blinker fluid provides you with thousands of hours of reliable blinking without the wear and tear on the flash-synchro's that the other blinker fluids cause. KaleCoAuto blinker fluid will not lose its viscosity even in the most extreme situations. Why buy that old dino-blinker fluid, when you can get our unique patented synthetic formula? Satisfaction guaranteed!! For use in any car.
(Works fine in bikes, too - no need for motorcycle specific blinker fluid!)
They're a great source for other hard to find items like clutch belts, seasonal air, adjustable powerbands, piston return springs, Johnson rods, Kuhneutson Valves and the ever popular but increasingly hard to find, muffler bearings!
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Uh, there is actually a muffler bearing. It's a sort of slip joint on the exhaust pipe of an M113 tracked vehicle that allows the engine to move a little. Ask any 63C (US Army job classification) about it.
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And next time you change your oil, don't forget to drink:
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/ZenMan33/HDbeer2.jpg)
I hear it makes great blinker fluid and muffler bearing lube, too. :wink: