Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: Sven on September 09, 2008, 11:04:54 PM
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Back in May, prior to the trip to WV, I did a spring maintenance (spark plugs, air filter, oild + filter, etc.). Around that time, I vaguely remember talking with a buddy about how the gas stations locally all started having ethanol stickers for the first time, or stickers changed wording from "may contain up to 10%" to "contains up to...". I started having some rough idling, noticed a drop in mileage (from a city/freeway high of 46 to a low of 39) and the bike would stall out when I left work in the afternoon without letting it warm up. I also would get something that I assume is the same as what was described elsewhere on this forum as "lean popping".
The problem went away on the trip, but came back and I had it all summer here in TN. I redid my maintenance and tried a can of sea foam even.
Now on the trip to GA and back last week, the problem went away again, but came back when I filled up in TN gas. I have decided it's because of the ethanol due to any othe good ideas. In researching the matter, it sounds like it's a common problem in an motor other than a modern, big car engine. Bikes, boats, lawn equipment all misbehave and lose efficiency. Heck, even today's Consumer Reports news update was sympathetic on the issue.
So...anyone else really having heartburn over this issue? Any way to overcome the side effects of this misguided attempt to reduce petroleum use?
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I was talking to a friend who is somewhat of a fuel expert and here's his take... for what it's worth.
1. An overly lean condition will exacerbate problems from using ethanol laced fuel.
2. Colder temperatures, not hotter, make the problems with ethanol more pronounced.
Do you have a jet kit installed to compensate for #1?
Also... use Startron & Seafoam on a regular basis to clean out the 'crud' that ethanol leaves behind in your fuel system.... other additives like Sta-Bil & STP don't work.
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I have noticed a loss in overall MPG with the use of E10.... common lament among users. A recent trip to the twisties included no E10 and better fuel mileage - even with lower gears and higher revs. The loss of mileage is REAL.
At first, the bike didn't seem to run any worse but now it definitely shows signs of running lean - poor idling, some surging at steady cruising speeds... just plain not what it used to be. Seafoam did nothing to help that situation. I suspect the carbs need a good cleaning and some changes in the settings. Too bad because this bike has been totally trouble free until now.
FWIW... I hate E10.... :banghead:
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I think you're on the right track. While the owners manual says it's OK to use E10 (nothing higher on the E scale though), I've found it does decrease performance and fuel economy and will only use it if I have no other choice. I haven't used it in my B12, but I have seen its ill effects in my cages.
E10 will also attract any water in your fuel and that can compound running issues.
I don't know how prominent E10 is in TN, but around here, you can find plenty of stations that sell "E0", you just have to watch for the ethanol labels (or more specifically, the lack there of) on the pumps.
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Huh... I don't think I have a choice but E10 in any of the states where I get fuel (mostly MD but also frequently PA and sometimes DE). I have a weird idle/sporadic hard starting problem I've been chasing for a while. Wonder if E10 has at least something to do with it. I pulled the carbs last weekend (likely the first time they've ever been off) and they looked GREAT as do the plugs but I wonder if I'm not burning corn as well as dinos???
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I was talking to a friend who is somewhat of a fuel expert and here's his take... for what it's worth. An overly lean condition will exacerbate problems from using ethanol laced fuel. Do you have a jet kit installed to compensate for #1?
I totally lost track of my own thread! So anyway...
I still have the stock exhaust and have changed nothing about the jetting. So tell me about that...while I would probably have it done rather than do it myself, what would I need...or what would I ask for?
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I don't know how prominent E10 is in TN, but around here, you can find plenty of stations that sell "E0", you just have to watch for the ethanol labels (or more specifically, the lack there of) on the pumps.
Everything is labeled to say "may contain" or "does contain" up to 10% ethanol. Nobody advertises having E0, unlike stations in the stories I've read online. I think I got a good tank of gas a couple weeks ago in the county north of mine while riding the MRT. But it was a typical modern BP station with the same "may contain" label.
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I still have the stock exhaust and have changed nothing about the jetting. So tell me about that...while I would probably have it done rather than do it myself, what would I need...or what would I ask for?
Stay tuned (pun intended) as I hope to solve some running issues this weekend with a stage 1 jet kit. It'll be the first time my carbs have ever been touched.
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I still have the stock exhaust and have changed nothing about the jetting. So tell me about that...while I would probably have it done rather than do it myself, what would I need...or what would I ask for?
Stay tuned (pun intended) as I hope to solve some running issues this weekend with a stage 1 jet kit. It'll be the first time my carbs have ever been touched.
And you're taking pictures of every step!
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And you're taking pictures of every step!
Actually, I hope to - the instructions with the kit assume you have a lot of experience and I found them to be a little bit vague. Terrebandit has done this to a couple of bikes and offered to help me this weekend - maybe I can put together a nice little how-to thread.
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Getting the carbs off is the hardest part. The rest is a snap. With some patience, you can do it.
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the instructions with the kit assume you have a lot of experience and I found them to be a little bit vague
I don't even know what comes in a "kit"!
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Jet kit got installed - took lots of pictures and will be putting some kind of report together later. Started right up and ran pretty good - didn't have to re-do anything at this point. Even with the stock exhaust the bike ran better... less idle stumble and smoother throughout.
Also stuck an aftermarket pipe on (Wileco) but have to wait for some gasket sealant to cure before I can test that out. I have no idea on what impact to the fuel mileage will be but should have a better idea in a week or so. There was quite a bit of crud in the bowls and I wonder if a good cleaning by itself would have helped.
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I don't know how prominent E10 is in TN, but around here, you can find plenty of stations that sell "E0", you just have to watch for the ethanol labels (or more specifically, the lack there of) on the pumps.
Everything is labeled to say "may contain" or "does contain" up to 10% ethanol. Nobody advertises having E0, unlike stations in the stories I've read online. I think I got a good tank of gas a couple weeks ago in the county north of mine while riding the MRT. But it was a typical modern BP station with the same "may contain" label.
Nobody advertises "E0" around here (nor do they advertise E10), you have to look at the labels, too. Mostly just ARCO and some Union 76 stations lace gas with alcohol in my area. I guess your proximity to the nation's grain belt makes it more popular for all the brands.
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Jet kit got installed - took lots of pictures and will be putting some kind of report together later.
I'm still interested in seeing pics and understanding better what this process entails. I found this article which explained the basics. How did you pick which kit to buy? Did you have some way to measure the correct setting, or just look for a nice even idle? http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/motorcycle_jet_kits_carburetion/index.html (http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/motorcycle_jet_kits_carburetion/index.html)
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Hey Sven
Installing a jet kit is really not that hard. The hardest part (on the B6 and I'm told the B12 as well) is usually removing the float bowl screws, which can be a real bugger! Make sure you've got a good screwdriver. And then reinstalling the throttle cables at the end is a real pain as well.
Anyway, based on the feedback I've seen here, the best kits to consider are either the Holeshot or Ivan's kit. Ivan's kit comes with new needles, which can open up some additional tuning options (and complexity), whereas Holeshot uses shims on the stock needles. For use with the stock airbox/filter and a slip-on can, either will work just fine. Both come with instructions and tuning suggestions.
You will find some addtional power, especially in the mid range, and warm up with the choke will be greatly reduced.
Just take your time, and follow the instructions, and you will likely be fine...(after cussing the throttle cable reinstall!!)
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Installing a jet kit is really not that hard...Just take your time, and follow the instructions, and you will likely be fine...(after cussing the throttle cable reinstall!!)
I will most likely save this for a deep winter (late Jan/early Feb) visit to the repair shoppe and have them do it along with other stuff. But then, you never know...if I can get someone to help me, I might tackle it myself.
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OK... here's a little follow up post jetkit/pipe install. The power delivery was very noticeable after the pipe was installed. Overall, things were a lot smoother running and the idle hiccup (lean sneeze?) largely disappeared. The bike can now idle at 1,100 rpm where as before it needed to be around 1,400 rpm to be stable.
What really surprised me was the mileage figures... they shot (IMHO) way up - nearly 10% better than before. I was fully prepared to sacrifice a couple of MPG's for the increased power and was just astounded on the increased mileage. Actual numbers were 40 mpg before and a very consistent 43-45 mpg after... no matter how hard I romp on it. A couple of tanks were over 47, also had one range test of 218 miles on a single fill-up with .7 gallons left. Pretty incredible.
The only downside at the moment is increased rear tire wear - I can't seem to keep that throttle hand in check. :trustme:
I chose a kit based on a lot of different feedback that centered on the "plug-n-play" capability of that particular kit. While I can't vouch for anyone else's efforts I only had to do this one time using the "baseline" settings provided by the kit manufacturer. I know it's not perfect - there's a bit of a flat spot at certain rpm's but thing are running so much better I haven't felt the need to tweak it... too busy riding (nearly 5,000 miles since the kit install). :motorsmile:
I hope to put a report together later in the month but the weather has been fantastic and I'll save that for a rainy day.
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Hey Sven
Installing a jet kit is really not that hard. The hardest part (on the B6 and I'm told the B12 as well) is usually removing the float bowl screws, which can be a real bugger! Make sure you've got a good screwdriver. And then reinstalling the throttle cables at the end is a real pain as well.
Indeed, they can be a bugger, a good set of small vice grips does the job, and if you go the Factory Pro, kits they even supply new allen key bolts to replace the factory phillips heads. :clap:
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Indeed, they can be a bugger, a good set of small vice grips does the job....
Tru' dat.... I managed 15 out of 16 with a good fitting screwdriver. Just ever so slightly buggered one up and even the impact wouldn't work. I ended up buying a pair of needle nose vice grips (great excuse to buy a tool) and it came right off. Of course, had I been patient like all the others I wouldn't have needed to make the trip. :duh:
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On my Kawi, I got to the point where I was starting with the needle nosed Vise Grips (why do they use such CRAP screws!?!?!?). Worked like a charm. Next time I take the bowls off, I'll buy the allen heads in advance...
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and if you go the Factory Pro, kits they even supply new allen key bolts to replace the factory phillips heads. :clap:
Holeshot does, too.
:btw: The Japanese have a slightly different standard (JIS 4633B-3/1991) for Phillips head screws, which contributes to them being difficult if the correct tool isn't used. An SAE or European Phillips driver has a pointier tip than a JIS one, so the tip of a non-JIS driver will bottom out in the screw and not come into full contact with the screw... much like trying to use a Reed & Prince screwdriver in an SAE Phillips screw. If you have a JIS Phillips driver, the incidence of damaged screws is much less.
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I will most likely save this for a deep winter (late Jan/early Feb) visit to the repair shoppe and have them do it along with other stuff. But then, you never know...if I can get someone to help me, I might tackle it myself.
Sven.... check your P/M's and email. I sent you a P/M but your ISP kicked it back. Just wondering if you got the main email. :trustme:
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Sven.... check your P/M's and email. I sent you a P/M but your ISP kicked it back. Just wondering if you got the main email.
Oh yeah, I got it fine, wonder why you were notified otherwise. Anyway, I am in awe of the top-qaulity job y'all did on the document! Much appreciated!
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Oh yeah, I got it fine, wonder why you were notified otherwise.
The automatic email notification sent out by B/A was rejected by your ISP and Stormi let me know.
Glad you got the attachment and thanks for the kind words.
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Well... between some great riding weather, actually assembling the photos with text, getting some peer review and a little help hosting I finally finished my jet kit install guide (4 months after the fact). It's posted up HERE FOR MEMBERS ONLY. (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get21)
Sorry for the "hidden" areas - that's a result of discussions with the manufacturer and honoring his request to protect proprietary information. Hope it helps someone - there aren't very many stock B12's anymore. :trustme:
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Great job guys!!!
:thanks: Thanks to Tx and Terrebandit. - Job well done. :thanks:
Some great instructions here on how to remove the carbs from your B12. The process is substantially the same for the 2nd gen B6 as well.
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My E-10 problems disappeared when I went up another jet size and added two shims to my needles.
Now the bike runs great, maybe even better than on straight gas with the old set-up.
Try it. You will like it!
I think that E-10 has a higher oxygen content and causes the bike to run leaner than on straight gas but, when corrected with bigger jets, all is well.
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You know I get that "lean popping' now myself and I just attributed it to the Two Brothers exhaust that I put on it because it started about that time, but with that being said, I think there could something to that alcohol thing in the fuel. I do know that I did a little research when I first got my bike and the manufacturers recommend that you "do not use" alcohol in the Bandit fuel. Some thing about the fact that it wears on seals and stuff like that. It also seems like to me that the alcohol "stickers" at the pump are a fairly recent thing too. Oh well maybe some of us in here can get our heads together and figure out a way around it or some thing...Banditone1250s...
There is a thin line between fear and respect...Feel free to drift across it every now and then...