Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: Vidrazor on January 14, 2007, 03:34:38 PM
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:wink:
(http://www.grandcorbeau.com/images/regard.jpg)
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I love that Joe Bar Team cartoon!
... I just wish they published the JBT comics in English!
When I went to the Bol d'Or race in France last year, one of the guys camping in his minivan parked next to me in the parking lot must have been a big fan of Joe Bar:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/a4xnut/French%20bikes/Bol%20D%20Or%20Photos/Bol_dOr_044.jpg)
... but back to the subject of Target Fixation - I spotted this pic on ST.N:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/paulweit/humor/target_fixation.jpg)
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I was reading somewhere that a cousin of this problem is not looking far enough ahead past the target or past the turn. The brain not unlike a weapon system computer needs to have data to work out the correct solution for the upcoming turn and many accidents are caused because people never look beyond the turn and the brain is unprepared to give the body the correct information for speed, breaking, lean exc. which can result in over or short shooting the target resulting in head on collisions and or loss of control from abrupt over compensation.
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A former El Presidente of the club a ride with always gave newbies the following advice....
"Always look at least 200 meters ahead of you, because you always fall exactly on the spot that you're looking at"
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Yes, gents, as a man "of a certain age" (as the French put it) I find that this seems to be more of a problem as I get older.
One has to be aware of this and consciously take action to avoid it. For me, the best remedy seems to be more "scanning" of everything around me more often. Seems to have worked so far.... :wink:
"A.D.D. of the apex can rune a day....."
Don't you just love illiterates ?? Now if that wrecked bike HAD been a Rune, I'd have stood up and cheered..... :lol: :lol: :lol:.....as it is now it's just a ruin......
Sorry....but sometimes I just can't resist poking the animals with a stick..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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:beers:
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I remember reading an old Motocross book by "Professor" Gary Bailey (father of David Bailey of motocross fame). He comments that you need to look where you want to go, not where you don't. Your brain will always tend to take you in the direction your looking.
In off road riding, if there is a tree in your way, you need to look past the tree, not at the tree. He said that most novice riders tend to hit the tree because that's what their looking at.
That advice stuck. Also, most recent safe driving courses teach/advise you to look 15 seconds ahead if possible. So I really try to concentrate on looking around the corner as far as I can and focus on my line onto the next straight or following corner.
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I believe the best street riders are those that have equal or greater amount of time off roading in either enduro, MX, or long adventure rides then those without. The balance, agility and constant differnce in terrain makes the act of riding and dealing with approaching obstacle's more automatic to the brain which includes the experience on going down. Which although more forgiving with respect to injury, is much more often and therefor, better dealt with by the brain. Because of this I believe an on road motorcyclist who supplements his two wheel activities with regular off road riding is much better able mentally and physically to deal with dangers and demands of on road hazards. My point is as we get older and dull compounded by our greater avoidance of on road traffic (the perfect day ride), buying a small dirt bike and hitting the trails will defiantly force your brain in shape and put an edge on your riding skills and a spring in your ass. :motorsmile:
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I believe the best street riders are those that have equal or greater amount of time off roading in either enduro, MX, or long adventure rides then those without. The balance, agility and constant differnce in terrain makes the act of riding and dealing with approaching obstacle's more automatic to the brain which includes the experience on going down. Which although more forgiving with respect to injury, is much more often and therefor, better dealt with by the brain. Because of this I believe an on road motorcyclist who supplements his two wheel activities with regular off road riding is much better able mentally and physically to deal with dangers and demands of on road hazards. My point is as we get older and dull compounded by our greater avoidance of on road traffic (the perfect day ride), buying a small dirt bike and hitting the trails will defiantly force your brain in shape and put an edge on your riding skills and a spring in your ass. :motorsmile:
I agree with what your saying, to a cetain extent. I've seen some dirt bike boys get themselves into all sorts of trouble when they try and apply a similar riding style to their new GSXR6/R6/CBR6 etc as they used on their WR's/RM's etc....
For those who don't have the cash to buy a second bike, then riding your road bike on 'good' dirt roads, at a sensible speed, can also "force your brain in shape and put an edge on your riding skills"
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To clarify when I say off roading I am not talking about long dusty back water telegraph lined vehicular roads, I talking about goat and mule trail, sand washes, pumpkin patch stream beds and canyon rutted passes. Do this with a friend and a couple beer breaks and you not only will have the time of your life, but you will be pleasantly sour working out all those flabby highway muscles. After a month or so you will much more cat like in traffic and better able to deal with "Target Fixation"
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I have to say my dirt bike experience has allowed me to react to slides, tire spinning up coming out of a corner, etc. without really having to think about it, it's just natural. But in alot of ways, dirt riding style can get you in trouble also.
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I will tell you a quick story of a shipmate of mine who's life was saved because of his dirt bike experience, a crazy but true story. Fred had finally bought himself a Virago 650 for commuting to work in 1988 he was driving down 7th street toward downtown Long beach in a succession of green lights so the speed is pretty good about 45-50. An old woman driving a ford country sedan station wagon waiting to make a left lunged into the intersection with only about one car lengths between them Fred instinctively stood on the pegs and jumped up the motorcycle went into and under the car and Fred cleared the car except for the luggage rack which caught his jacket at the end and flipped him right side up on his feet just behind the car. Any other new or even unexperienced street rider would have probably frozen or stayed seated.
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I agree with what your saying, to a cetain extent. I've seen some dirt bike boys get themselves into all sorts of trouble when they try and apply a similar riding style to their new GSXR6/R6/CBR6 etc as they used on their WR's/RM's etc....
I agree! The first year I started riding on the street, I had put on about 2000kms before we ever got out to the dirt. I hopped on the dirtbike and started crashing left and right. I couldn't figure out what was wrong for the first lap on the track. Everytime I went into a turn, I'd eat sh!t. I got off the track and looked at the bike, nothing seemed messed up, but 10 mins into the day I was already hurting. Then I realised what it was. You don't hang off when you corner on a dirt MX track. :duh: I was applying street stuff to the dirt, and getting really dirty as a result.
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I agree! The first year I started riding on the street, I had put on about 2000kms before we ever got out to the dirt. I hopped on the dirtbike and started crashing left and right. I couldn't figure out what was wrong for the first lap on the track. Everytime I went into a turn, I'd eat sh!t. I got off the track and looked at the bike, nothing seemed messed up, but 10 mins into the day I was already hurting. Then I realised what it was. You don't hang off when you corner on a dirt MX track. :duh: I was applying street stuff to the dirt, and getting really dirty as a result.
I dont think I've ever seen anyone hanging off through the turns in the dirt. LOL I know it really cracks me up though to pass sportbike squids hanging off in the curves on my B12 while going past them sittin gup in my cruising position.
I have often wondered why they need to hang off when their knee is 36 inches above the ground. :-)
Blue
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I dont think I've ever seen anyone hanging off through the turns in the dirt. LOL
And now you know why :)
I was at the stage in my street biking where "I read this,.. I wanna try it..." and tried to apply it to the dirt too.
If I'd had traction, I might have gotten away with it,... no such thing on that part of the track though. Within 5 mins of getting the bike warmed up, I'd slid on my belly twice, into a mud puddle one of the times. *sigh*
I know it really cracks me up though to pass sportbike squids hanging off in the curves on my B12 while going past them sittin gup in my cruising position.
I have often wondered why they need to hang off when their knee is 36 inches above the ground. :-)
Blue
I'm not sure that it works for me either, but I haven't exactly been trained to do it,... I just experiment a little when I ride. We're thinking of sending me to the track this year though, and maybe I'll find that it works for me after that.
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Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.
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I'm not sure that it works for me either, but I haven't exactly been trained to do it,... I just experiment a little when I ride. We're thinking of sending me to the track this year though, and maybe I'll find that it works for me after that.
The secret to fast is smoothness and consistancy. Some riders hang off, some hardly at all. Use what is comfortable for you.
Blue
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Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.
I'm not too sure about that. There are so many things between them that are different, its like comparing apples and oranges. They're both round and have seeds, but.............. :-)
Blue
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Well in all fairness I will say that both dirt and track time experience goes a super long way in supplementing the deceptively easy world of licensed on road motorcycling, which in reality is a dangerous and unforgiving environment for which too many who are ill prepared by their local "Motorcycle Safety Foundation" and/or DMV course which is not enough for the first time unexperienced rider (like a one way mission). Oh and target fixation as well...
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Which proves my point that dirt riding demands a much higher level difficulty. When not abandoned builds superior equilibrium in the nuances of balance, agility, equipoise and reaction, albiet not usually with repeated falls at every turn before learning something. Duelporters may not hang off in traffic with the proverbial hand waive but when it come to reacting quickly to a bad situation, we are in the know.
Absolutely! Dirt requires much more skill, it's also nice to take your lumps there when learning. Dirt is SO much softer than asphalt!
In my defence, thanks to our riding season, or lack there of, I would have remembered not to hang off on dirt, if I'd been on a dirt bike more recently than 8 -9 months before.
Good thing you can either hang off, or push the bike in ( a la dirt biking) on the street. Traction is a beautiful thing.
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The secret to fast is smoothness and consistancy. Some riders hang off, some hardly at all. Use what is comfortable for you.
Blue
Ahhh!! Good advice. :thanks: Sometimes I envy the guys with the guts to get right down and drag a knee,... but I don't think I have the guts to do it. I still can't figure out how some of them do it on our streets, with barely a curve. One of the guys in St Albert does it, and it's a thing to behold.
I'll stick with my barely past perpendicular to the road for now.
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Well in all fairness I will say that both dirt and track time experience goes a super long way in supplementing the deceptively easy world of licensed on road motorcycling, which in reality is a dangerous and unforgiving environment for which too many who are ill prepared by their local "Motorcycle Safety Foundation" and/or DMV course which is not enough for the first time unexperienced rider (like a one way mission). Oh and target fixation as well...
I certainly agree with you that dirt and track experience is advantageous. I think MSF courses are a good thing but my opinion (whatever thats worth :-) ), is they offer slight to no usefulness to saving your butt in a street confrontation. Then too, my feeling is few if any novice riders are prepared to act constructively when faced with a crash situation. Maybe none of us truly are. ???
Practice and becoming a skilled rider improves ones chances, but that is only part of the equation. I've asked myself what
is the difference between between those that crash and those that dont. I've come to the conclusion it isnt due to lack of riding skill. I know some riders that can handle a bike better than I, but they have crashed many more times than I have. Dirt riding will develop the reflex half of the problem, but in the dirt, that rock will still be in the same place 5 seconds later. On the road, everything is constantly changing position, speed and vector. The quality lacking in dirt riding is prediction. The difference (I believe) between those that crash on the street and those that dont is their ability to read and predict traffic so as not to be where they have predicted a high probability of a conflict. In a word, awareness. I probably devote 1% of my attention to operating the bike, 25% to scanning the road relative to surface conditions and debris and the rest of my time is spent on tracking traffic, combining trajectories and changing my position relative to what is going to happen.
There is a point where no amount of riding skill will save you, but if you can avoid being at that point of convergence, then
skill does not become a factor. If you dont want to get run over, dont cross in front of where you know a car will be 5 seconds from now. :-)
The key to longevity is.................awareness.
Blue
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The key to longevity is.................awareness.
Yep, Have Blue, truer words were never spoken.....and the lower your skill quotient is the higher your awareness MUST be.
That way, you can then decide not[/b] to be where the potential accident will occur. Simple stuff really....and it is taught in all the rider courses I'm aware of. Maybe it's just not used as consistently as it should be.
R (recognize the hazard...oh, oh, wanker in cage on cell phone at 3 o'clock)
I (identify how the hazard will affect you...he's pulling out in front of me)
D (decide how to deal with the hazard...I'll swerve around him, go behind him, whatever)
E (execute your decision...start countersteering, etc.)
R (recover from your manoeuvre....steer back into your lane)
Having said all that, I'm in complete agreement with the dirtbike types here. I rode cross-country bikes for 20 years and I definitely learned a lot of skills I would not have learned on the street....or may have learned on the street but at great pain (pun intended) and expense. Dirt biking speeds up the skill acquisition process exponentially, IMO.
Just leave the extreme stunt crap to the experts on teevee.
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..and the lower your skill quotient is the higher your awareness MUST be.
There may be a problem with that. New riders spend more of their time operating the bike since understandably, their skill level is lower. There is only so much time available, so they have less to spend observing their surroundings. It isnt a simple task no matter how its divided.
Blue
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Sometimes I envy the guys with the guts to get right down and drag a knee,... but I don't think I have the guts to do it. I still can't figure out how some of them do it on our streets, with barely a curve. One of the guys in St Albert does it, and it's a thing to behold.
I'll stick with my barely past perpendicular to the road for now.
Why not find a straight, infrequently travelled road and while going in a straight line, practice moving around on the bike.
There isnt any law that says you can only hang off the bike if you're in a turn. It'll go straight quite happily with you hanging off either side. Sometimes, I cant resist playing with the minds of the Ricky Racer types and pass them on a straighaway hanging off just for grins. Once in a while I pass them on a curve hanging off the wrong side for an even bigger grin. :-)
Blue
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By chance, you're not a ride day instructor......
A couple of mates of mine did a ride day/training day this time last year and were saying that at the end of their time they thought they we doing so well, that was until one of the instructors passed them on the out side of a (what they thought was tight) left and corner corner, looked at them, smiled, took his left hand of and gave them the thumbs up....
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By chance, you're not a ride day instructor......
A couple of mates of mine did a ride day/training day this time last year and were saying that at the end of their time they thought they we doing so well, that was until one of the instructors passed them on the out side of a (what they thought was tight) left and corner corner, looked at them, smiled, took his left hand of and gave them the thumbs up....
No, I'm not a ride instructor. I've just been at it for a while and when the situation has permitted, have probably clowned around with a bike more than I should have. :-)
Still do, it keeps the old reflexes up.
What you said is so true. When you're smooth and comfortable in a turn and the lines are correct, no further input is needed. The bike goes around all by itself. You ever wave at oncoming riders while leaned over in a turn? Notice that some wave back and others stare straight ahead, tightly gripping both grips, not daring to take a hand off. On any turn at any speed, if you cant take a hand off the grips, you need to work on setup and being smooth. Ever watch Rossi
drifting through a tight turn, knee dragging at 120 mph, wave at someone on the sidelines and complete the turn one handed. He can do that because his setup is right, he is smooth, comfortable, no further input is needed and he has free time.
Blue
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Why not find a straight, infrequently travelled road and while going in a straight line, practice moving around on the bike.
There isnt any law that says you can only hang off the bike if you're in a turn. It'll go straight quite happily with you hanging off either side. Sometimes, I cant resist playing with the minds of the Ricky Racer types and pass them on a straighaway hanging off just for grins. Once in a while I pass them on a curve hanging off the wrong side for an even bigger grin. :-)
Blue
You know, I was playing that way a little when we were in the mountains. I discovered it when I started to get a little stiff, and started to fidget. I realised that I could move around a ton on the bike and still have it go straight. Some came from "counter balancing" the way I do it on the dirtbike (i.e stomping on the outside peg while cornering hard) some of it came from being aware of where I was in relation to the bike. Of course, I didn't go very far over in any of the circumstances.
I also touched my foot down on the ground at about 60mph (misjudged the distance to the ground at night), while stretching, and the bike barely even noticed. That was a surprise. There was serious pucker factor going on at that point.
I've got a good 2 months before I can try any of this though. :sad:
LOL! That would be hilarious to see! I would love to see the looks on their faces when you go by them on the totally "wrong" side of the bike.
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You know, I was playing that way a little when we were in the mountains. I discovered it when I started to get a little stiff, and started to fidget. I realised that I could move around a ton on the bike and still have it go straight. Some came from "counter balancing" the way I do it on the dirtbike (i.e stomping on the outside peg while cornering hard) some of it came from being aware of where I was in relation to the bike. Of course, I didn't go very far over in any of the circumstances.
I also touched my foot down on the ground at about 60mph (misjudged the distance to the ground at night), while stretching, and the bike barely even noticed. That was a surprise. There was serious pucker factor going on at that point.
I've got a good 2 months before I can try any of this though. :sad:
Find some clear highway and go play. :-) :-) Its good for you. eh eh Just do things in small steps so you stay comfortable. Its supposed to be fun.
One of my games for open road is to weave the dotted centerline at about 60 mph. Start out slower than that though. :-) If will speed up your steering reflexes. When you can do it in a straight line, practice it while negotiating a curve. (keep in mind, it must be a curve you can see from beginning to end in its entirety) Being able to swerve back and forth in a curve will come in handy the next time something on four feet jumps in your way while the bike is leaned over. Whatever you can do to increase your skill is a good thing. :-) Enjoy.
Blue
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New riders spend more of their time operating the bike since understandably, their skill level is lower.
The object of a PROPER novice riding course of about 20-25 hours total duration is to get the rider competent enough in his/her basic operation of the bike so that he/she CAN think about other things i.e. the traffic around him/her.
I taught the Canada Safety Council Novice Rider Course for 19,
count 'em...19, seasons and that's the object of their course.
Sure they teach other skills....but basic bike operation as a subconcious action is foremost. Everything else is built on that particular skill. That's why EVERY new rider
(and a lot of experienced ones too) should take a proper formal riding course.
Now, of course all the old sweats on here will say "I don't need no steeenking novice rider course!!" but you'd be surprised at what you can learn. When I took the Instructors' Course I was 28 years old and full of P & V.....
lotsa 1/4 mile time....lotsa high speed street racing time, etc etc.
Boy....did I get my eyes opened in a hurry....and since I can take a hint, I figured that maybe I HAD been doing a bunch of things wrong, after all.
All that stuff has stayed with me for all those years and (knock wood) I haven't thrown any of my street bikes down the road yet.....and I haven't let the cagers whack me yet, either.
To paraphrase a famous guy: The price of safe riding is eternal vigilance.
End of rant.....for now.
:lol: :lol:
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Notice that some wave back and others stare straight ahead, tightly gripping both grips, not daring to take a hand off.
There was a rider in our usual group that road like that even in a straight line.
Not only was it extremely frustrating but also dangerous.
This person would be in the middle of a 10 bike group and 5 riders in front of said person would make a left turn at an intersection, and said person would keep going straight ahead, meanwhile 3 of the 4 remaining bikes behind said person would turn left, and said person would keep going. It was then up to 'tail end Charlie' to go and chase said person, get it's attention and almost force it to turn around. On more than one occaison it was me who had to do the chasing (honestly it wasn't hard - I don't think they'd ever gone over 100km/h) and had to pull in front of it, progressively slow down and wave it to a stop.
It's response "I was wondering where everyone had gone".
The scary thing is that this person drove their Landcruiser the same way....
My ex brother-in-law (motorcycle cop) always said that he didn't trust a rider that didn't 'have a look at the scenery', it wasn't until I met the above person that I realised what he meant.....
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I think it all comes down to seat time. Just being comfortable on the bike,weather it be a dirt bike or street bike.Knowing what the bike and tires are capable of. And what you can do with confedence.(leaving room on the steet for the unexpected of course.) The more you ride,the more you know the bike and what you can do on it.
And riding with a good rider can help as well. I don't mean someone that has to show off and show you how fast he can go.Or push you above your limits of comfort. But someone that can show his/her lines and smoothness.
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I think it all comes down to seat time. Just being comfortable on the bike,weather it be a dirt bike or street bike.Knowing what the bike and tires are capable of. And what you can do with confedence.(leaving room on the steet for the unexpected of course.) The more you ride,the more you know the bike and what you can do on it.
And riding with a good rider can help as well. I don't mean someone that has to show off and show you how fast he can go.Or push you above your limits of comfort. But someone that can show his/her lines and smoothness.
Totally agree - but there are still some people, regardless of how long they've been riding, that just shouldn't be on a bike, or the road for that matter.