Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: stormi on December 13, 2007, 06:47:04 PM
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Hey All,
On Monday I have to go fight a $287 red light ticket. Here's the neat part, I remember the situation clearly.
The technical: The ticket was postmarked on Oct 18, and arrived to me on the 22nd. The pic is so light, it's nearly impossible to see which light is lit on the tree.
Oct 3rd, it was 4:16pm (this I know from the ticket), the temp was about 10C (50F), the threshold where I stop riding because the tires start to have crappy traction because they and the roads are getting too cold.
The ticket says I was going 35Kph (That's 21.74mph for you non-metric folk) It's downright embarrassing to get a pic of your bike at that speed! I crossed the stop line at 0.5sec after the light turned red. Yes, a ½ second.
I was in rush hour traffic, and there was a car behind me trying to make progress. He'd been moving lane to lane, and doing erratic manueveurs. He had just jumped into my lane, behind me, and the movement caught my attention. I looked into the mirror to see what he'd done, and if he was going to hit me. My eyes were off the road in front of me for maybe 2secs. I turned back, and the light was already yellow. I knew if I stopped, he might hit me, or I may lay the bike down (and still get hit), for lack of traction, so I went, hoping I had enough time. Apparently, I misjudged by a ½ second.
Choices are: 1. Pay the fine. 2. Plead Not guilty by Mail. 3. Appear before a Justice.
I choose #3...
So,.. does anyone have any tips for me, on helping to swing the odds to my favor?
My biggest hope is that I don't get some judge that hates motorcycles...
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It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing and torn shoes if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
That should do it.
Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot
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I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.
You should try to find out the technical details of the camera system too if you can. Where and when is the picture taken. I'm thinking, is it possible in your line of sight the light is yellow allowing you to continue, but changes to red while you're mid-intersection?
You guys up there have those outfits called ex-coppers or whatever, I wonder if they would be useful. I foften hear they get people off for technicalities (is the lousy pic one of those?)
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Or you can do what I did last time I got my ticket speeding on I40. Just take the online traffic school course for $100 which take it completely off your record for insurance purposes. That is if that an option where you live.
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My take: I advocate going to court and putting yourself and your actions and motives in the most positive light possible, without being dishonest.
Say nothing about poor traction, the quality of your tires, etc. Do not defend why you were riding a motorcycle (unless you have a good story, like "while it was really colder than I prefer to ride, my car was in the shop (or has been leaking oil, or needs a brake, job, etc.), so I had to bundle up and hope nobody would hit me...". Not suggesting you lie, but if there was ANY reason you did not take a car, use it.
Admit that you understand how dangerous it is to run a red light, but underplay it in favor of the situation. "As a motorcyclist, I understand more than most drivers how dangerous it is when vehicles run red lights. As you know, I entered the intersection one-half second after the light changed to red. Unfortunately, my attention was behind me, due to an erratic driver...".
Again, without telling anything untrue (although the other driver will not be present, nor will a cop, since this was an automated camera), state every little erratic behavior the driver demonstrated. While looking behind you to see where he was, and possibly looking for a way to get over and let him pass, you looked ahead to see the light turning yellow. While you were not speeding, you were simply afraid to make a quick stop for fear of being hit by the nutjob behind you.
"In summary, your honor, I would rather be standing here today and paying a fine, if I must, than to be lying in a box six feet under."
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if you can speak French really good. go for a French judge.. it is a well known fact that French people like French people... and they hate me(even though technical i am French). because i switch there French stop signs for English ones :bandit: (ps if any French people take offense to this.. sorry.. its suppose to be taken lightly.. not seriously.) on a more serious note tho... my next door neighbor is on the force. and i told him my lience plate on my photo radar ticket was barely readable.. he told me i should have faught it in court.. but if i was a judge.. i would have laughed at myself if i tried to present a case like mine..
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It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing and torn shoes if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
That should do it.
Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot
I was thinking the exact opposite. Go in dressed well, but not flashy, and talk like an upstanding member of society.
edit: especially cos it's not cheap to own a motorcycle here. That would blow me right out of the water to say I was destitute, and had a 2002 919 under me.
Maybe I could ask the judge to be nice, given that it's so close to both my birthday and Christmas? :clap:
The facts hopefully will stand for themselves. For instance, when you're going 35kph, and see the light is yellow, you're already on top of the line in order to cross it at 0.5 sec after the light changes. Realistically speaking, I could have been doing a lot worse, and they would never have known I was there. I'll probably not mention that part though. :wink:
oh,.. and the bike is registered in my name, hence the reason I have to appear.
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I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.
I think that once the ticket is issued though, the usual response is: "well, it was still breaking the law and at least you don't have an accident to deal with" I'm hoping that this judge will be benevolent enough to hear me out and realize I wasn't being a hooligan.
You should try to find out the technical details of the camera system too if you can. Where and when is the picture taken. I'm thinking, is it possible in your line of sight the light is yellow allowing you to continue, but changes to red while you're mid-intersection?
I'm not sure I follow here. I know the address where the camera is, I'm going out there this weekend to time the light. One thing that happens notoriously here is that the time for the yellow is short, especially when there's a camera at the intersection.
The way the camera is set up, is you have to cross the stop line after the light changes in order to trigger the camera. That's my understanding of it anyway, and the way it looks in the pics.
The thing that really gets me is that the damned RLC sensors are able to pick up my bike, but the sensors to change the lights when there's traffic at it aren't. :taz:
You guys up there have those outfits called ex-coppers or whatever, I wonder if they would be useful. I foften hear they get people off for technicalities (is the lousy pic one of those?)
We do have those guys up here, but I won't engage them for two reasons.
1. We have a friend who used them, and there's no proof the guy ever went to the courthouse on the day. They charged their money, but he still has a ticket outstanding and no info on whatever happened.
2. To pay $500 for a $287 ticket with no demerits really doesn't make sense.
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Or you can do what I did last time I got my ticket speeding on I40. Just take the online traffic school course for $100 which take it completely off your record for insurance purposes. That is if that an option where you live.
No demerits on a photo ticket here. Just really big fines. Because they can't "prove" who was driving, you're charged as an owner, not as the "perp".
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if you can speak French really good. go for a French judge.. it is a well known fact that French people like French people... and they hate me(even though technical i am French). because i switch there French stop signs for English ones :bandit: (ps if any French people take offense to this.. sorry.. its suppose to be taken lightly.. not seriously.) on a more serious note tho... my next door neighbor is on the force. and i told him my lience plate on my photo radar ticket was barely readable.. he told me i should have faught it in court.. but if i was a judge.. i would have laughed at myself if i tried to present a case like mine..
I read french well enough to not have to turn the can around in the store, but I can't speak it well enough to not offend french people. :wink:
What would the ticket have to be for you to get laughed out of court?
It looks to me like the photos are manipulated for light and contrast, to make them readable. I have no idea what the originals look like. The fact that the two full-sized pics are nearly no contrast and terribly light, so I can barely see which light is lit on the tree, and the close up of Blue's license plate shows him as black tells me something has been manipulated. I -assume- though that this is "acceptable" manipulation.
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My take: I advocate going to court and putting yourself and your actions and motives in the most positive light possible, without being dishonest.
Precisely my take on it. That way too, it's hard to trip me up in a lie. I'm so bad at that. :wink:
Say nothing about poor traction, the quality of your tires, etc. Do not defend why you were riding a motorcycle (unless you have a good story, like "while it was really colder than I prefer to ride, my car was in the shop (or has been leaking oil, or needs a brake, job, etc.), so I had to bundle up and hope nobody would hit me...". Not suggesting you lie, but if there was ANY reason you did not take a car, use it.
How about if I brought the bike, I could share my client's parking spot in her secured parking area, but if I didn't there was no room, and it was a bad area of town, and I would have had to walk alone to the bike or car, if it was still there when I got back? We've actually car pooled since then to avoid this problem in the future, but that's not always practical, as it wasn't that day.
Admit that you understand how dangerous it is to run a red light, but underplay it in favor of the situation. "As a motorcyclist, I understand more than most drivers how dangerous it is when vehicles run red lights. As you know, I entered the intersection one-half second after the light changed to red. Unfortunately, my attention was behind me, due to an erratic driver...".
Again, without telling anything untrue (although the other driver will not be present, nor will a cop, since this was an automated camera), state every little erratic behavior the driver demonstrated. While looking behind you to see where he was, and possibly looking for a way to get over and let him pass, you looked ahead to see the light turning yellow. While you were not speeding, you were simply afraid to make a quick stop for fear of being hit by the nutjob behind you.
Well put. Honestly, I think what killed me on this is that I was doing 35kph. If I'd been going the speed limit, or even closer to it, I wouldn't have been as close to the line ( or conversely over it) and in a way, had more time to react. At 35, I was on top of the line almost before I could see the color of the light after turning my head back, but no time to stop because the line was right there.
"In summary, your honor, I would rather be standing here today and paying a fine, if I must, than to be lying in a box six feet under."
I might not put the paying a fine thing back in his head, but I definitely get the direction you're headed in. :grin:
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I think you're desciption of the folllowing vehicle should help your case. I think there are times when a law may be broken legally in order to avoid a collision, such as this occurance. For example, an oncoming vehicle crosses over to your side of the road towards you. Of course your recource is to cross the white line to your right, or cross the yellow line to your left in order to avoid the collision.
I think that once the ticket is issued though, the usual response is: "well, it was still breaking the law and at least you don't have an accident to deal with" I'm hoping that this judge will be benevolent enough to hear me out and realize I wasn't being a hooligan.
I'm suggesting that having to run what you believed was a yellow light, was necessary and excusable because of eratic driving of the guy behind you. I would suggest that if it were a real cop, and not a camera, the cop would give you a break and want to know the description of the other car, and what he was doing.
Something similar happened to me years ago. A guy harassing me in his car got out with his friend, both armed with rather large knives. I ran that light, took a left and saw a cop parked. I purposely ran that light too in order to get pulled over. The cop asked for a description, and they went looking for these guys. Running the light was NECESSARY in that instance, and I doubt any cop would ticket for it, or any judge find guilt.
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I'm suggesting that having to run what you believed was a yellow light, was necessary and excusable because of eratic driving of the guy behind you. I would suggest that if it were a real cop, and not a camera, the cop would give you a break and want to know the description of the other car, and what he was doing.
Something similar happened to me years ago. A guy harassing me in his car got out with his friend, both armed with rather large knives. I ran that light, took a left and saw a cop parked. I purposely ran that light too in order to get pulled over. The cop asked for a description, and they went looking for these guys. Running the light was NECESSARY in that instance, and I doubt any cop would ticket for it, or any judge find guilt.
Wow! I'd have to run a LOT of red lights, and speed like crazy to actually find a cop that would pull me over. That said,... most of the cops I've seen would likely make me stay there, call in the other driver, and STILL give me a ticket, cos I was doing something I knew was wrong. :roll:
I hope you're right though, cos it's my only real defense.
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Well what the heck it worked for my mom in 1972 when she dragged my nephews on behalf of my brotherinlaw who couldn't afford it so my mom did a Parry Mason and she got the ticket dismissed. Anyway it was a funny story so I thought it might generate a laugh.
It's better if you have small kids you can dress up in tattered cloths to take with you. In any event go dresses in some ragged clothing and torn shoes if you have them. Tell the judge that you were avoiding an accident as you could see and hear the skidding car behind you as it was about to hit you and had no choice but to move into the intersection on a yellow light but as far as you could tell it never turned red. Also tell him the only reason your driving your husbands motorcycle is because the car is broke down and you are trying to earn extra money to have it fixed also one or two Christmas presents. Ask Your Honor if there is any way possible he could give you a bit of mercy during this hard time.
That should do it.
Oh yeah also put some gaunt markup, dirt your hands and take a bit of Chinese chili oil just before going in to make you cough allot
I was thinking the exact opposite. Go in dressed well, but not flashy, and talk like an upstanding member of society.
edit: especially cos it's not cheap to own a motorcycle here. That would blow me right out of the water to say I was destitute, and had a 2002 919 under me.
Maybe I could ask the judge to be nice, given that it's so close to both my birthday and Christmas? :clap:
The facts hopefully will stand for themselves. For instance, when you're going 35kph, and see the light is yellow, you're already on top of the line in order to cross it at 0.5 sec after the light changes. Realistically speaking, I could have been doing a lot worse, and they would never have known I was there. I'll probably not mention that part though. :wink:
oh,.. and the bike is registered in my name, hence the reason I have to appear.
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i dont think the light colour will help.. as being colour blind and some times not being able to tell the difference in the colour of traffic lights, i was tested for which place the light is.. on the order from left to right. and up and down when i got my lisence. my ticket was for 30+ over speed limit... but in the pic the windows are down and arms are out... just an over all bad picture to try to fight in court... i figue i got lucky... because when i ever i speed on that road is when im "testing" and get to much higher then i did when i got my ticket... i got it right at my bday to.. (over 230 dollars!!!) but my pic the colour was fine... ish... they must have horrible w/b on their camera.. my pic was blurry tho. mabye because i was going sooo fast :lol: but i was making the lots of money then.. so that was pocket change...wish i didnt spend my money as much back then. now i am a starving student.
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I'd deffinatly fight it. I also agree on not going into the traction discussion,but use the term aggressive driver behind you.Explain how you noticed his actions in your mirrors and were concerned as he was closing in. The coast was clear for a escape, and you preceded with exstreme caution. Although you don't want a ticket,it was a better choice than getting run off the road. (I'd skip the tattered clothes too,dress nice and be repectfull.)
Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Good luck, Dan
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I don't know how the laws work in Alberta, but you might want to look into them a little and see if they are anything like the ones in California. If they are similar, some of the info at Highway Robbery (http://www.highwayrobbery.net/) may help.
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Yeah, there's WAY too many of these cash cows in Edmonton, and it's almost like there's a cop with a laser gun skulking behind every corner. Is it making Edmonton's roads safer ? NOT :annoy:
After my accident and subsequent rehabilitation we decided to move out of Edmonton (due to the crime, traffic, road disrepair and maniac cagers) to a rural area. Now I head out on a ride and in 5 minutes I'm out in the country. That's not to say that there aren't hazards here also, like late last season when a bull elk came out onto the highway 25 yds in front of me.
Anyway, about your ticket, fight it ! Explain to the magistrate what was going on with the nut job behind you and that you are not in a habit of running red lights. You might catch him/her in a good mood and score a discharge. It's possible. Good luck :motorsmile:
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Well what the heck it worked for my mom in 1972 when she dragged my nephews on behalf of my brotherinlaw who couldn't afford it so my mom did a Parry Mason and she got the ticket dismissed. Anyway it was a funny story so I thought it might generate a laugh.
Yeah, I think a few things have changed since 1972. :grin: I found one article about the prosecutor and the police making it hard on canadians who choose to fight their tickets. We'll see.
I've worked out the math. The physics didn't even allow me to come to a stop if I -hadn't- had an asshat behind me.
Average "perception time" apparently is about 3/4 of a sec. Then reaction time on top of that, another 3/4 sec. In that time, I would have traveled 47.845 of the 95.69115 ft I was away from the stop line. Apparently, a motorcycle decelerates slower under hardbraking than a car, and I can believe it, cos we have to balance them and try not to go ass over teakettle. The number from Randall K Noon (Forensics Engineering Investigator- who wrote a book, so he's got to be right, right? :grin:) is 16ft/per sec. So,.. I was out of time before I even started braking, even if I had been able to brake.
The physics support me,.. but now I just gotta hope that the judge understands physics. :wink:
i dont think the light colour will help.. as being colour blind and some times not being able to tell the difference in the colour of traffic lights, i was tested for which place the light is.. on the order from left to right. and up and down when i got my lisence. my ticket was for 30+ over speed limit... but in the pic the windows are down and arms are out... just an over all bad picture to try to fight in court... i figue i got lucky... because when i ever i speed on that road is when im "testing" and get to much higher then i did when i got my ticket... i got it right at my bday to.. (over 230 dollars!!!) but my pic the colour was fine... ish... they must have horrible w/b on their camera.. my pic was blurry tho. mabye because i was going sooo fast :lol: but i was making the lots of money then.. so that was pocket change...wish i didnt spend my money as much back then. now i am a starving student.
The light color would make a difference if it wasn't already yellow when I managed to swivel my head back to looking at it. :)
The pic I have here is B&W, in fact, it looks like it was run off on a laser printer. It's neigh on illegible. The images of the stop line are so light, you can barely see them, and the one of the license plate is pretty tough to read, cos the plate is light in comparison to the bike. OF course, we -do- have red lettering on a white background, so it stands to reason.
Money's like everything else,.. we never appreciate what we've got , til we don't anymore.
I don't know how the laws work in Alberta, but you might want to look into them a little and see if they are anything like the ones in California. If they are similar, some of the info at Highway Robbery (http://www.highwayrobbery.net/) may help.
Thanks Red! I spent a lot of time on that site. On it, I was able to tell what all the fuzzy squiggles are on my ticket, so I can go in there informed. I just hope that the speed indicated is in KPH, not MPH. :wink: or I'm dead in the water.
The next hour will be spent making my notes for the "visit with the judge", cos I know, if I don't make the notes, I'll be first up.
One notable difference between California, and Canada, is the time for a "speedy" trial. Cali = 45 days. Canada ( Ontario for sure, more than likely Alberta too) 8 months! Apparently we have longer memories?? :roll:
I'd deffinatly fight it. I also agree on not going into the traction discussion,but use the term aggressive driver behind you.Explain how you noticed his actions in your mirrors and were concerned as he was closing in. The coast was clear for a escape, and you preceded with exstreme caution. Although you don't want a ticket,it was a better choice than getting run off the road. (I'd skip the tattered clothes too,dress nice and be repectfull.)
Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Good luck, Dan
Thanks for the luck. I can use all I can get on this one. Check, another vote for looking sane and lucid when I go in there. Or as sane and lucid as I can when I get about 4 hrs sleep.
Yeah, there's WAY too many of these cash cows in Edmonton, and it's almost like there's a cop with a laser gun skulking behind every corner. Is it making Edmonton's roads safer ? NOT :annoy:
After my accident and subsequent rehabilitation we decided to move out of Edmonton (due to the crime, traffic, road disrepair and maniac cagers) to a rural area. Now I head out on a ride and in 5 minutes I'm out in the country. That's not to say that there aren't hazards here also, like late last season when a bull elk came out onto the highway 25 yds in front of me.
Anyway, about your ticket, fight it ! Explain to the magistrate what was going on with the nut job behind you and that you are not in a habit of running red lights. You might catch him/her in a good mood and score a discharge. It's possible. Good luck :motorsmile:
I hate it when I have to be in Edmonton. The highway cops are bad enough, especially with the new sherriffs, but MAN!! Everywhere you turn there's a cop either abusing his power, or pulling someone over. It actually makes me nuts, cos they'll put their lights on, and stop everyone at an intersection, and you'll see -that- car, about 2 mins later up the street at the Timmies. Yeah, I've had it happen a number of times. Called it in once or twice, but you make a complaint, and THAT cop calls you back to "explain".
I will do what I can. I'll report back, good or bad tomorrow aft.
I'm half tempted to show up there at 2pm, since, imho, the ticket is a little ambiguously worded:
I am commanded to appear before a justice at Provincial Court Traffic (etc etc) On Monday, 17th day of December, 2007 between 9:00am and 3:30pm.
Sounds like they can wait on my schedule, doesn't it? I know that the biggest complaint about traffic court though is always the showing up at the beginning of the day and wasting the whole day there.
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Don't bore the judge with a lot of technical numbers, you'll lose him quickly.
I think your best argument is that you had an erratic driver behind you, and you feared braking hard for the yellow light would have resulted in getting rear ended on a motorcycle. Emphasize some of the driving behavior of the car driver prior to the light.
It certainly is worth pointing out, that had this ticket come from the police rather than a camera, you'd have been able to tell the police about the reckless driver. If that were the case, the police might have been able to check out that driver for alcohol/drug impairment, license, insurance etc. Almost certainly they would understand your plight and give a warning at most. As it was, on a motorcycle, it would have been impossible to use a cell phone to call 911, so your next best option was to get some distance in order to pull off the road safely.
If told convincingly, you very well stand a chance to get it dismissed. Obviously, the crown has no live witness to say otherwise.
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If your courts are just as screwed up as they are here, you are screwed. Seems like Judges here don't care about the truth or what is right when it comes to traffic tickets.
He sounded like he was going fast. verdict, guilty
Two cars, raining, side by side, cop used laser gun, wasn't speeding. Verdict, guilty.
BTW, I found this in my searches, maybe this is why it is so hard to fight tickets...
http://www.motorists.org/blog/corruption/traffic-tickets-are-big-business/
Traffic tickets are a multi-billion industry. They have virtually nothing to do with highway safety, but they have everything to do with money!
When you begin to grasp the full magnitude of the public and private interests that depend on ripping off motorists through traffic tickets, you begin to understand why this unethical system continues to expand every year.
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BTW, I found this in my searches, maybe this is why it is so hard to fight tickets...
That's exactly why it's difficult to fight a ticket. Our courts are just as messed up, in fact, most of the time, our courts are based on what yours do.
So,.. here's how it went down: Yesterday was only the "show up and talk to the prosecutor" day. I went in, and sat down, and he looked at the ticket and said "Ok, so you got a red light photo violation on your..... bike."
looked up at me, but not with the "@#$@#$ biker" look on his face, and said
"well, you certainly weren't going very fast, what's the story?"
I looked at him and said, "yeah, I'm guessing you're not used to seeing such low numbers on a bike ticket. I got razzed for that when I opened it."
I explained the situation, and why I couldn't have done anything different, and that I certainly don't make running red lights a habit, especially on a bike.
His response was, so the driver behind you was being a real idiot, eh?" To which I responded, "pretty much."
So he put the offer on the table: " I can't make the ticket itself go away, you have to go to court and take your chances on that, but I can reduce the fine to a yellow light traffic infraction, instead of the red light." (Which I think is bogus, since a yellow light means stop if you can safely, and it was obvious that I couldn't stop safely, or I would have)
I asked if the yellow light ticket carried demerits, to which he responded "no, no photo ticket does", and the fine? $115.
Weighing the odds, I know that accepting this is a win for them, cos they still get some money, but it's also a win for me, cos I don't part with $172. Reading all of what I did, I know that the courts are fickle, and not particularly likely to side with me, especially as a motorcyclist, plus a whole wasted day sitting in a court room, in April.
I asked him what I could have done differently. He replied that there wasn't much. He suggested that perhaps I could have turned right, but I mentioned that there was gravel at the intersection, and also that I would still have received a ticket for a right turn at a red light, and I would have had to slow down to make the right. He looked at me and said, "Then there's not really anything you could have done differently, you have to protect yourself, you don't have a big metal cage around you like in a car." Spoken almost like a motorcyclist, eh?
So, in the end, I decided that it wasn't worth wasting an entire day over $115, and with no guarantee that I would come out of it with less than a $287 fine. I accepted the lower ticket, paid it, despite him offering to give me time, because it was Christmas, and closed this book.
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I don't know about up there, but they can make a ticket go away down here. I got a ticket back in '04 when I hit loose gravel in a turn. I got taken by ambulance and received a ticket some weeks later for unsafe speed. Needless to say, I was in shock! This is especially the case since I wasn't going for the checkered flag. Anyways, I went and told my case to the prosecutor and found out her dad rode a bike too and understood my dilemna. She proceeded to tell me not to worry about it and get it dismissed. Away I left free and clear. :grin: I think they could've made it go away too if they really wanted too.
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Possible, Or possible that because this was a "first visit" prosecutor, he was a little castrated. I know that the system is set up for the purposes of making it difficult for a ticket to go away, so it would make sense to castrate the front line people, so they're unable to "give in".
It's possible I gave in too early too. It was easier for me to say fine I'll make a $115 donation to the crown, in return for a guaranteed reduction in the fine, and to not have it hang over my head for another 5 months, and no guarantee of reduction.
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I was hoping to be able to give you the dancing bannanas and a congrats. They must be pretty tough up in the Great White North.
Dan
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So he put the offer on the table: "... I can reduce the fine to a yellow light traffic infraction"...Which I think is bogus...I asked him what I could have done differently. He replied that there wasn't much...."Then there's not really anything you could have done differently, you have to protect yourself, you don't have a big metal cage around you like in a car."
I think this is why I would have scheduled the court date. This guy is making up infractions and counselling you that the next time this happens, you *have* to do it again. And that's something I would certainly want to share with a judge!
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A yellow light infraction? In my state, and all the others I've lived in, you can't get a ticket for running a yellow light, only red. As long as you are IN the intersection the least little bit while it's yellow, you are in the intersection legally.
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Believe it or not, a yellow light infraction is not made up. (and yes, I knew this before going in.)
From the Alberta Highway Traffic Act (http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType44/Production/splquickref.pdf):
Found on page 37 of the pdf under "Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation (AR 304/2002)":
Section/Offence/Current Penalty/Previous Penalty
53(1) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering intersection /marked crosswalk" /115 /69
53(2) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering marked crosswalk / vicinity of signal" /115 /69
53(3) /"Fail to yield to pedestrian / motor vehicle in intersection – flashing yellow light" /115 /69
There are a lot of inane offences listed in there.
Technically, if I told the judge that he was counseling me, it might have been considered a form of entrapment. I -asked- him. I wanted to see what he said, to see if there was a chance that the prosecution would drop the case when it got to court. After his response, my impression was: He understood what happened, why it happened, but also that it was still an offense under the traffic act, a risk a person had to take to protect themselves, along with the fines that may come with it.
Yes, he should have said, "that's not for me to say", but he didn't counsel me on how to win a case, nor how to get out of the ticket, only on how a driver might have avoided both the ticket and the potential accident, from his point of view, at the time.
Personally, I'd like to see this one enforced more:
62/"Operate siren on emergency motor vehicle in / response to non-emergency" /115 /69
But you know it won't be.
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53(1) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering intersection /marked crosswalk" /115 /69
Wahuh? I have never heard, nor been taught, that anyone is supposed to stop at a yellow light. Even a flashing yellow light is "slow and proceed with caution". What type of illogical philosophy do you people have up there, anyway?
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It's not just "up here" :wink:
Also, Kansas has a law on the books:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20001007/ai_n11755408
Oregon looks to have something on the books:
http://www.laborlawtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-157039.html
Massachusetts:
http://www.middletonpolice.com/annual_report/PD2006AR.pdf - page 8 shows 14 yellow light violation tickets given out for the 2006 fiscal year.
It seems to be an obscure law they can resort to when there's "nothing else", but it IS a valid law on the books in many places.
Those are the first three I found, I have no doubt there are more...
Apparently there's a law on the books as well that you're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle without footwear. I haven't seen that one yet though, and I often drive without shoes in the summer.
Also:
Michigan:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bbjoxteabunhoa55cvjqws45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetMCLDocument&objectname=mcl-257-612&queryid=12213645&highlight=traffic%20control
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#traffic_lights
Solid Yellow- A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you can’t stop safely, enter the intersection cautiously.
I did not however find a reference to it being an offence in California to run a yellow. I only found a reference that said that there was a "misprint" on the books about it, and that there were officers that ticketed under it, but usually the tickets were thrown out.
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53(1) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering intersection /marked crosswalk" /115 /69
Wahuh? I have never heard, nor been taught, that anyone is supposed to stop at a yellow light. Even a flashing yellow light is "slow and proceed with caution". What type of illogical philosophy do you people have up there, anyway?
You're really gonna hate this then:
http://home.naxs.com/kpdweb/ttips.htm
http://www.kingsportpublicworks.com/safety%20tips/52_tips.pdf
And from your driver's manual (page 27 of the pdf) (http://www.state.tn.us/safety/dlhandbook/DL_StudyGuide2007.pdf):
YELLOW: Caution—prepare to stop. The red stop signal will be exhibited immediately after the yellow light appears. Adjust speed immediately to come to a smooth stop. You must stop if it is safe to do so. Do not speed up to beat the light. If you are already IN the intersection when the yellow light comes on, do not stop, but continue cautiously through the intersection. Tennessee law only requires the yellow light to be exhibited for a minimum of three seconds before the red light.
Collisions often happen at intersections on yellow lights. Not only is it dangerous to ignore the yellow light, you may hold up oncoming traffic that receives the green light. Please be aware that some drivers often “jump the green” and start through an intersection, because they have seen the yellow light come on from the crossing directions. If you try to “beat the yellow” and another driver decides to “jump the green” the results could be deadly!
http://www.trafficviolationlawfirms.com/national-content.cfm/Article/7316/Red-Light-Running.html
4. What does a "yellow" light mean?
The meaning varies slightly from State to State. Frequently, as in the District of Columbia a steady yellow light or arrow warns that the light is about to change. If you have not entered the intersection, you should come to a stop, if you can do so safely. If you are already in the intersection, you should continue moving in order to clear it. Speeding up to beat the red light could cause a crash.
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I clicked on the link to see what they exspect up noth. What! You mean your not aloud to drink & drive? :duh:
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http://www.trafficviolationlawfirms.com/national-content.cfm/Article/7316/Red-Light-Running.html
4. What does a "yellow" light mean?
The meaning varies slightly from State to State. Frequently, as in the District of Columbia a steady yellow light or arrow warns that the light is about to change. If you have not entered the intersection, you should come to a stop, if you can do so safely. If you are already in the intersection, you should continue moving in order to clear it. Speeding up to beat the red light could cause a crash.
In every state I've lived in, that's pretty much the standard in the driver's handbook. If any portion of your vehicle is in the intersection or past the stop line/crosswalk, you are in the intersection legally.
FWIW - here's Oregon's law on yellow lights:
Chapter 811 Rules of the Road for Drivers
811.260 Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices.
(3) Steady circular yellow signal. A driver facing a steady circular yellow signal light is thereby warned that the related right of way is being terminated and that a red or flashing red light will be shown immediately. A driver facing the light shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, then before entering the intersection. If a driver cannot stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously through the intersection.
(4) Steady yellow arrow signal. A driver facing a steady yellow arrow signal, alone or in combination with other signal indications, is thereby warned that the related right of way is being terminated. Unless entering the intersection to make a movement permitted by another signal, a driver facing a steady yellow arrow signal shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, shall stop before entering the marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if there is no marked crosswalk, then before entering the intersection. If a driver cannot stop in safety, the driver may drive cautiously through the intersection.
In the OR link Stormi gave, the arguement in court was over if the driver had crossed the crosswalk or not, but as you can see by reading the above, if the driver cannot stop in safety, it's OK to proceed, therefore the arguement over the crosswalk was rather moot. There didn't seem to be any arguement over the driver not being able to stop in time.
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The main reason I posted the OR link was because usually in order to be able to be charged with something, there has to be a law on the books. Therefore, by assumption, I figured that there must be some law in OR that says yellow lights can be run, and we frown on it. :wink:
As I understand the "yellow light running", back in the day, when we had cops doing the jobs that cameras do today, (boy, does that seem bitter?) the cop would use their discretion. In my particular situation, the cop more than likely would have let me off, because he would (hopefully) have seen the whole situation. However, now, with the cameras, it's black and white, so to speak, and therefore harder to refute the charge, especially when there's no evidence on your behalf, because you got the ticket 2 weeks later, and couldn't necessarily remember even doing what they showed you you did.
Unfortunately, that "Black and white" image of you running the red is one of the things that is very hard to overcome when facing a judge.
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Moral to the story, take your bike for a ride down a muddy road, wash your bike, but "forget" to wash the plate.
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nope, that's punishable too. *sigh*
They ticket regularly here in the winter if your license plate is obscured accumulated snow.
There is one thing that an awful lot of Edmontonians have in common, regardless of anything else - we hate the police here, because everywhere we turn there's a ticket being given for something.
You should see the anger that usually accompanies one of those plastic license plate covers being removed. I think really, I'm just gonna have to learn to go those wheelies through the intersections :wink:
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A dirty plate is punishable here, too... though probably seldom written - based on the filthy plates I see on dump trucks around here.
OTOH, it takes a live cop to write you for a dirty plate, the camera can't do it. :wink:
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I'm just curious stormi, does everyone know where these red light camera locations are up there?
We don't have them here but I suspect if we did, they'd be vandalized shortly after..lol.
A kid with a sign "red light camera ahead" and a bucket of mud could make a fortune on the side of the road..lol.
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A dirty plate is punishable here, too... though probably seldom written - based on the filthy plates I see on dump trucks around here.
OTOH, it takes a live cop to write you for a dirty plate, the camera can't do it. :wink:
They seem to really like to ticket people for things that obstruct a camera's ability to get a ticket to you. See, the problem is that the police service gets a portion of the revenue from the cameras. In BC, the police service didn't get revenue, and they were pretty quick to agree with nearly everyone that Red Light cameras are just a cash cow, and don't reduce accidents. Here, the police get a cut, and they -insist- that they do help traffic safety.
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I'm just curious stormi, does everyone know where these red light camera locations are up there?
We don't have them here but I suspect if we did, they'd be vandalized shortly after..lol.
A kid with a sign "red light camera ahead" and a bucket of mud could make a fortune on the side of the road..lol.
Yup, the Edmonton police even post the locations on their website, and by law, they must post a sign at the intersection that the camera is at.
The problem of course is if you're in an unfamiliar area, you may not catch the sign in time, or the camera apparatus, or you may not be able to stop (like in my situation), OR, the fact that the legislation does not (did not?) say that the sign had to be before the camera, it just had to be prior to the intersection it was at, so the city would put up a sign in every direction BUT the one that the camera was at, in SOME cases.
Oh yes, they've truly made policing an "us against them" scenario in Edmonton.
Some of the cameras have suffered some vandalism, usually spray paint, but none like the one that I read about in Tennessee. Apparently some guy shot one there. :lol:
http://www.police.edmonton.ab.ca/Pages/TrafficSection/Redlight/locations.asp