Author Topic: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?  (Read 14497 times)

Offline smooth operator

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2007, 08:08:33 AM »
  I'd deffinatly fight it. I also agree on not going into the traction discussion,but use the term aggressive driver behind you.Explain how you noticed his actions in your mirrors and were concerned as he was closing in. The coast was clear for a escape, and you preceded with exstreme caution. Although you don't want a ticket,it was a better choice than getting run off the road. (I'd skip the tattered clothes too,dress nice and be repectfull.)
   Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Good luck, Dan

Offline Red01

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2007, 04:09:41 PM »
I don't know how the laws work in Alberta, but you might want to look into them a little and see if they are anything like the ones in California.  If they are similar, some of the info at Highway Robbery may help.
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Offline Pidgey

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2007, 12:05:16 AM »
Yeah, there's WAY too many of these cash cows in Edmonton, and it's almost like there's a cop with a laser gun skulking behind every corner. Is it making Edmonton's roads safer ? NOT  :annoy:
After my accident and subsequent rehabilitation we decided to move out of Edmonton (due to the crime, traffic, road disrepair and maniac cagers) to a rural area. Now I head out on a ride and in 5 minutes I'm out in the country. That's not to say that there aren't hazards here also, like late last season when a bull elk came out onto the highway 25 yds in front of me.
Anyway, about your ticket, fight it !  Explain to the magistrate what was going on with the nut job behind you and that you are not in a habit of running red lights. You might catch him/her in a good mood and score a discharge. It's possible. Good luck  :motorsmile:
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Offline stormi

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2007, 03:09:53 AM »
Well what the heck it worked for my mom in 1972 when she dragged my nephews on behalf of my brotherinlaw who couldn't afford it so my mom did a Parry Mason and she got the ticket dismissed. Anyway it was a funny story so I thought it might generate a laugh.

Yeah, I think a few things have changed since 1972.  :grin:  I found one article about the prosecutor and the police making it hard on canadians who choose to fight their tickets.  We'll see.

I've worked out the math.  The physics didn't even allow me to come to a stop if I -hadn't- had an asshat behind me. 

Average "perception time" apparently is about 3/4 of a sec.  Then reaction time on top of that, another 3/4 sec.  In that time, I would have traveled 47.845 of the 95.69115 ft I was away from the stop line.   Apparently, a motorcycle decelerates slower under hardbraking than a car, and I can believe it, cos we have to balance them and try not to go ass over teakettle.  The number from Randall K Noon (Forensics Engineering Investigator- who wrote a book, so he's got to be right, right? :grin:) is 16ft/per sec.  So,.. I was out of time before I even started braking, even if I had been able to brake.

The physics support me,.. but now I just gotta hope that the judge understands physics.  :wink:

i dont think the light colour will help.. as being colour blind and some times not being able to tell the difference in the colour of traffic lights, i was tested for which place the light is.. on the order from left to right. and up and down when i got my lisence. my ticket was for 30+ over speed limit... but in the pic the windows are down and arms are out... just an over all bad picture to try to fight in court... i figue i got lucky... because when i ever i speed on that road is when im "testing" and get to much higher then i did when i got my ticket... i got it right at my bday to.. (over 230 dollars!!!) but my pic the colour was fine... ish... they must have horrible w/b on their camera.. my pic was blurry tho. mabye because i was going sooo fast  :lol: but i was making the lots of money then.. so that was pocket change...wish i didnt spend my money as much back then. now i am a starving student.

The light color would make a difference if it wasn't already yellow when I managed to swivel my head back to looking at it. :)
The pic I have here is B&W, in fact, it looks like it was run off on a laser printer.  It's neigh on illegible.  The images of the stop line are so light, you can barely see them, and the one of the license plate is pretty tough to read, cos the plate is light in comparison to the bike.  OF course, we -do- have red lettering on a white background, so it stands to reason.

Money's like everything else,.. we never appreciate what we've got , til we don't anymore.

I don't know how the laws work in Alberta, but you might want to look into them a little and see if they are anything like the ones in California.  If they are similar, some of the info at Highway Robbery may help.

Thanks Red!  I spent a lot of time on that site.  On it, I was able to tell what all the fuzzy squiggles are on my ticket, so I can go in there informed.  I just hope that the speed indicated is in KPH, not MPH.  :wink: or I'm dead in the water.

The next hour will be spent making my notes for the "visit with the judge", cos I know, if I don't make the notes, I'll be first up. 

One notable difference between California, and Canada, is the time for a "speedy" trial.  Cali = 45 days.  Canada ( Ontario for sure, more than likely Alberta too) 8 months! Apparently we have longer memories??  :roll:

  I'd deffinatly fight it. I also agree on not going into the traction discussion,but use the term aggressive driver behind you.Explain how you noticed his actions in your mirrors and were concerned as he was closing in. The coast was clear for a escape, and you preceded with exstreme caution. Although you don't want a ticket,it was a better choice than getting run off the road. (I'd skip the tattered clothes too,dress nice and be repectfull.)
   Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. Good luck, Dan

Thanks for the luck.  I can use all I can get on this one.   Check, another vote for looking sane and lucid when I go in there.  Or as sane and lucid as I can when I get about 4 hrs sleep.

Yeah, there's WAY too many of these cash cows in Edmonton, and it's almost like there's a cop with a laser gun skulking behind every corner. Is it making Edmonton's roads safer ? NOT  :annoy:
After my accident and subsequent rehabilitation we decided to move out of Edmonton (due to the crime, traffic, road disrepair and maniac cagers) to a rural area. Now I head out on a ride and in 5 minutes I'm out in the country. That's not to say that there aren't hazards here also, like late last season when a bull elk came out onto the highway 25 yds in front of me.
Anyway, about your ticket, fight it !  Explain to the magistrate what was going on with the nut job behind you and that you are not in a habit of running red lights. You might catch him/her in a good mood and score a discharge. It's possible. Good luck  :motorsmile:

I hate it when I have to be in Edmonton.  The highway cops are bad enough, especially with the new sherriffs, but MAN!! Everywhere you turn there's a cop either abusing his power, or pulling someone over.  It actually makes me nuts, cos they'll put their lights on, and stop everyone at an intersection, and you'll see -that- car, about 2 mins later up the street at the Timmies.   Yeah, I've had it happen a number of times.  Called it in once or twice, but you make a complaint, and THAT cop calls you back to "explain". 

I will do what I can.  I'll report back, good or bad tomorrow aft. 

I'm half tempted to show up there at 2pm, since, imho, the ticket is a little ambiguously worded:
I am commanded to appear before a justice at Provincial Court Traffic (etc etc)
Quote
On Monday, 17th day of December, 2007 between 9:00am and 3:30pm.

Sounds like they can wait on my schedule, doesn't it?  I know that the biggest complaint about traffic court though is always the showing up at the beginning of the day and wasting the whole day there.
stormi

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Offline rkfire

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2007, 12:33:02 PM »
Don't bore the judge with a lot of technical numbers, you'll lose him quickly.

I think your best argument is that you had an erratic driver behind you, and you feared braking hard for the yellow light would have resulted in getting rear ended on a motorcycle. Emphasize some of the driving behavior of the car driver prior to the light.

It certainly is worth pointing out, that had this ticket come from the police rather than a camera, you'd have been able to tell the police about the reckless driver. If that were the case, the police might have been able to check out that driver for alcohol/drug impairment, license, insurance etc. Almost certainly they would understand your plight and give a warning at most. As it was, on a motorcycle, it would have been impossible to use a cell phone to call 911, so your next best option was to get some distance in order to pull off the road safely.

If told convincingly, you very well stand a chance to get it dismissed. Obviously, the crown has no live witness to say otherwise.

Offline solman

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2007, 01:35:36 PM »
If your courts are just as screwed up as they are here, you are screwed.  Seems like Judges here don't care about the truth or what is right when it comes to traffic tickets.

He sounded like he was going fast.  verdict, guilty

Two cars, raining, side by side, cop used laser gun, wasn't speeding.  Verdict, guilty.

BTW, I found this in my searches, maybe this is why it is so hard to fight tickets...

Quote
http://www.motorists.org/blog/corruption/traffic-tickets-are-big-business/
Traffic tickets are a multi-billion industry. They have virtually nothing to do with highway safety, but they have everything to do with money!

When you begin to grasp the full magnitude of the public and private interests that depend on ripping off motorists through traffic tickets, you begin to understand why this unethical system continues to expand every year. 
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Offline stormi

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2007, 10:52:36 PM »
BTW, I found this in my searches, maybe this is why it is so hard to fight tickets...

That's exactly why it's difficult to fight a ticket.   Our courts are just as messed up, in fact, most of the time, our courts are based on what yours do. 

So,.. here's how it went down: Yesterday was only the "show up and talk to the prosecutor" day.  I went in, and sat down, and he looked at the ticket and said "Ok, so you got a red light photo violation on your..... bike."

looked up at me, but not with the "@#$@#$ biker" look on his face, and said
"well, you certainly weren't going very fast, what's the story?"

I looked at him and said, "yeah, I'm guessing you're not used to seeing such low numbers on a bike ticket.  I got razzed for that when I opened it."

I explained the situation, and why I couldn't have done anything different, and that I certainly don't make running red lights a habit, especially on a bike. 

His response was, so the driver behind you was being a real idiot, eh?" To which I responded, "pretty much."

So he put the offer on the table: " I can't make the ticket itself go away, you have to go to court and take your chances on that, but I can reduce the fine to a yellow light traffic infraction, instead of the red light." (Which I think is bogus, since a yellow light means stop if you can safely, and it was obvious that I couldn't stop safely, or I would have)

I asked if the yellow light ticket carried demerits, to which he responded "no, no photo ticket does", and the fine?  $115.

Weighing the odds, I know that accepting this is a win for them, cos they still get some money, but it's also a win for me, cos I don't part with $172.  Reading all of what I did, I know that the courts are fickle, and not particularly likely to side with me, especially as a motorcyclist, plus a whole wasted day sitting in a court room, in April. 

I asked him what I could have done differently.  He replied that there wasn't much.  He suggested that perhaps I could have turned right, but I mentioned that there was gravel at the intersection, and also that I would still have received a ticket for a right turn at a red light, and I would have had to slow down to make the right.  He looked at me and said, "Then there's not really anything you could have done differently, you have to protect yourself, you don't have a big metal cage around you like in a car."  Spoken almost like a motorcyclist, eh?

So, in the end, I decided that it wasn't worth wasting an entire day over $115, and with no guarantee that I would come out of it with less than a $287 fine.   I accepted the lower ticket, paid it, despite him offering to give me time, because it was Christmas, and closed this book. 
stormi

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Offline solman

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2007, 02:55:10 AM »
I don't know about up there, but they can make a ticket go away down here.  I got a ticket back in '04 when I hit loose gravel in a turn.  I got taken by ambulance and received a ticket some weeks later for unsafe speed.  Needless to say, I was in shock!  This is especially the case since I wasn't going for the checkered flag.  Anyways, I went and told my case to the prosecutor and found out her dad rode a bike too and understood my dilemna.  She proceeded to tell me not to worry about it and get it dismissed.   Away I left free and clear.   :grin:  I think they could've made it go away too if they really wanted too.
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Offline stormi

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2007, 05:54:07 AM »
Possible, Or possible that because this was a "first visit" prosecutor, he was a little castrated.  I know that the system is set up for the purposes of making it difficult for a ticket to go away, so it would make sense to castrate the front line people, so they're unable to "give in".

It's possible I gave in too early too.  It was easier for me to say fine I'll make a $115 donation to the crown, in return for a guaranteed reduction in the fine, and to not have it hang over my head for another 5 months, and no guarantee of reduction.
stormi

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Offline smooth operator

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2007, 10:13:34 AM »
 I was hoping to be able to give you the dancing bannanas and a congrats. They must be pretty tough up in the Great White North.
           Dan

Offline Sven

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2007, 10:26:02 AM »
So he put the offer on the table: "... I can reduce the fine to a yellow light traffic infraction"...Which I think is bogus...I asked him what I could have done differently.  He replied that there wasn't much...."Then there's not really anything you could have done differently, you have to protect yourself, you don't have a big metal cage around you like in a car."

I think this is why I would have scheduled the court date.  This guy is making up infractions and counselling you that the next time this happens, you *have* to do it again.  And that's something I would certainly want to share with a judge!
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Offline Red01

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2007, 10:41:08 AM »
A yellow light infraction?  In my state, and all the others I've lived in, you can't get a ticket for running a yellow light, only red.  As long as you are IN the intersection the least little bit while it's yellow, you are in the intersection legally.
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Offline stormi

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2007, 07:53:12 PM »
Believe it or not, a yellow light infraction is not made up. (and yes, I knew this before going in.)

From the Alberta Highway Traffic Act (http://www.infratrans.gov.ab.ca/INFTRA_Content/docType44/Production/splquickref.pdf):
Found on page 37 of the pdf under "Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation (AR 304/2002)":
Section/Offence/Current Penalty/Previous Penalty
Quote
53(1) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering intersection /marked crosswalk" /115 /69
53(2) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering marked crosswalk / vicinity of signal" /115 /69
53(3) /"Fail to yield to pedestrian / motor vehicle in intersection – flashing yellow light" /115 /69

There are a lot of inane offences listed in there.

Technically, if I told the judge that he was counseling me, it might have been considered a form of entrapment.  I -asked- him.  I wanted to see what he said, to see if there was a chance that the prosecution would drop the case when it got to court.  After his response, my impression was:  He understood what happened, why it happened, but also that it was still an offense under the traffic act, a risk a person had to take to protect themselves, along with the fines that may come with it.

Yes, he should have said, "that's not for me to say", but he didn't counsel me on how to win a case, nor how to get out of the ticket, only on how a driver might have avoided both the ticket and the potential accident, from his point of view, at the time.

Personally, I'd like to see this one enforced more:
Quote
62/"Operate siren on emergency motor vehicle in / response to non-emergency" /115 /69
But you know it won't be.
stormi

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Offline Sven

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 08:23:12 PM »
53(1) /"Fail to stop at yellow light before entering intersection /marked crosswalk" /115 /69

Wahuh?  I have never heard, nor been taught, that anyone is supposed to stop at a yellow light.  Even a flashing yellow light is "slow and proceed with caution".  What type of illogical philosophy do you people have up there, anyway?
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Offline stormi

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Re: Tips on fighting a Red light camera Ticket?
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 08:52:34 PM »
It's not just "up here"  :wink:

Also, Kansas has a law on the books:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20001007/ai_n11755408

Oregon looks to have something on the books:
http://www.laborlawtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-157039.html

Massachusetts:
http://www.middletonpolice.com/annual_report/PD2006AR.pdf - page 8 shows 14 yellow light violation tickets given out for the 2006 fiscal year.


It seems to be an obscure law they can resort to when there's "nothing else", but it IS a valid law on the books in many places.

Those are the first three I found, I have no doubt there are more...

Apparently there's a law on the books as well that you're not allowed to operate a motor vehicle without footwear.  I haven't seen that one yet though, and I often drive without shoes in the summer.

Also:

Michigan:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bbjoxteabunhoa55cvjqws45))/mileg.aspx?page=GetMCLDocument&objectname=mcl-257-612&queryid=12213645&highlight=traffic%20control


http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#traffic_lights
Quote
Solid Yellow- A yellow signal light means "CAUTION." The red signal is about to appear. When you see the yellow light, stop if you can do so safely. If you can’t stop safely, enter the intersection cautiously.

I did not however find a reference to it being an offence in California to run a yellow.  I only found a reference that said that there was a "misprint" on the books about it, and that there were officers that ticketed under it, but usually the tickets were thrown out.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 09:20:14 PM by stormi »
stormi

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