Bandit Alley
GENERAL MOTORCYCLE FORUMS => GENERAL MOTORCYCLE => Topic started by: ZenMan on July 26, 2007, 12:19:08 PM
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I could use ya'll's advice....
Our tiny town has a little repair shop that caters mainly to the local 4-wheelers and lawn mowers, etc. Owner is an ex-motocross racer with bad knees.
He's had this old '73-'74 Yamaha 360 Enduro (2-stroke) sitting in his shop for years. It's titled and licensed. I've talked to him about it several times, and we've just about come to an agreement on what it's worth.
See, there's more dirt roads in our county than paved, and a lot of trails. I've been wanting a cheap bike to blast around locally, street-legal for runs to town, but light enough for easy handling in the woods.
All my old dirtbikes were 2-strokes. I like the type of power delivery on dirt as opposed to a 4-stroke, and they are much lighter. A lot easir to kick-start too, and for under $800 I doubt I'll find a thumper with electric start.
I wouldn't be taking it more than a few miles on the pavement at a time. If I do burn up the piston, the top-end is easy to rebuild, and parts should be cheap and easy to find. I'll probably be upgrading the suspension to a more modern swingarm, shocks, and forks.
I have some extra $$ at the moment, and summer road season will be over soon... should I go ahead and get the ol' Yammy, or spend it on lowers and luggage racks for the Bandit? :motorsmile:
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I loved my old DT-1, but memory is better than reality. A mid 70's dirt bike will have some issues, remember its coming up 34 years old.
1. Parts are NOT likely easy to find. Check to make sure that the dealer can still get pistons, con-rod kit, and espcially seals and gaskets.
2. Old aluminium tends to corrode, so it is likely you will have corrossion in spots. Critical areas; engine mounts, exhaust outlet, intake, carbs.
3. Old rubber is suspect. Carb boots & intake manifold, seat mounts, tank mounts, etc.
4. The origional suspension is crap. Always was. But it's not worth updated on this vintage bike.
I am still running a 1987 CR250R, but it has some of the same issues coming up, and its 14 years younger.
Zen...I don't want to poo-poo your deal, but for $1000 or so, you should be able to find a newer dual sport, say no more that 12 years old, which is likely worth maintaining. The '73 360 enduro is a nice "mueseum" piece, but not really a daily rider.
Only an opinion...
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You're not "poo-pooing" at all... I asked for advice, I appreciate your honest opinion. :bigok:
The suspension upgrade would be less than $100, if not free. He has a large bike boneyard to scrounge from.
The aluminum corrosion is a good point... I'd inspect it more carefully before I'd plunk down any cash. The bike has been sitting in a climate-controlled room for years, so it may not be too bad.
I'll have to find out about engine parts, but he does have a lot of old stuff on his shelves.
There may be "younger" thumpers around, but I'd need electric start on a 500cc or bigger 4-stroke... bad knees. I've looked on Ebay for older KLR's and such, I particularly like the early 90's XT600 Yamahas I've seen... but most are well over $1K,, usually around $1500 or up. And they are heavy... about 100 lbs. more than this ol' stroker.
Good points, P... anyone else have thoughts? :motorsmile:
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Hmmm... pmackie brings up great points.
One one hand, I have an old '74 Yamajammer TY250 stroker and it has never needed anything more than gas & oil. Its suspension is crap and the rubber pieces are showing their age, but so far, corrosion isn't a major issue on anything. I paid $900 for it.
OTOH, my recent '93 XR650L purchase only ran me $750, though it did need a little work. I'm still into it for under a grand, including tax, title, registration and the little bits it needed (battery, headlight, tail light, spark plug). I admit, it was one of those deals where I was in the right place at the right time. One wouldn't normally pick up something like this for that price, but deals are out there.
While I still have a soft spot in my heart for 2-strokes, it sounds to me like you're looking for more of a trail bike, not a motocrosser, so a 4-stroke may be a better all-rounder due to their better bottom end pull.
(Gotta give my old IT400 some credit though - there was a 2-stroke that had a healthy bottom end.)
Why not just keep your DR200?
(Edit: Oops, just noticed you finally sold the DR)
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The DR200 was too small and underpowered for me.... that was supposed to be the 'ol lady's bike, but she just wouldn't learn to ride. :roll: Selling it is where the extra $$$ came from. :bandit:
I guess what I'm getting at is I like the fact that this bike is a 2-stroke, and also street-legal. It's like having an old motocross bike with a license plate. Can't get that in the U.S. anymore.
I realize all the differences between 2-strokes and 4-strokes, that's not the question. Some folks like the big 4-stroke thumpers for the trails, my preference for off-road is a 2-stroke. I like the lightness, and the WFO powerband that blasts you over obstacles. Big 4-strokes from that era and in that price range have grunt, but they are heavy and sluggish. With a taller suspension, this thing would be way more nimble and have power out the wazzoo!
Red, that was a great deal on your XR, and it's a great bike. I'm glad I don't have to kick-start it though! $800 is what I have to spend, no more. I can get the old Yammy for $700, and it is in excellent condition. It's basically the same engine as your old IT400, just slightly smaller displacement. Should have plenty of low-end, it was designed as an enduro after all.
I dunno... my choice is the Yammer or accessories for the Bandit. I didn't mean for it to become a discussion on 2-strokes versus 4-strokes, but I appreciate the input so far... :bigok:
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I'm glad I don't have to kick it, too. :bandit:
All the XR650L's have the magic button. :thumb:
Since there's no lever to boot it to life, if the button fails you, you'll be pushin' it :sad:
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It's basically the same engine as your old IT400
Hey Zen....don't get your hopes up too far. The old DT's were piston port engines (pre reed valve). You might want to check this one out closely. I think the reed valve engines didn't hit the line until 1976? The IT series engines were quite different, but the IT 400 was 1979/1980 at its earliest?
The origional 360 enduro is NOT as quick as you might think. Somewhat ponderous, restrictive exhaust, very mildly ported. Never had any two stroke "snap" that your thinking about. There were lots of frame kits for the early DT-1's to try to make them handle better. The 73/74/75 were 2nd gen DT's, IIRC, but still not stellar in handling.
I did help a buddy strip down a 76 DT 250. We managed to remove about 40+ lbs by removing steel fenders, exhaust, almost all the street gear, etc. but even with an aftermarket pipe, it was NOTHING like a 1979 IT 250, which seemed almost like a race bike in comparison.
Make sure you take the old Yamaha for a ride before you buy it. Like I said, I have fond memories of these old bikes, but in reality, they were not that great. Technology moved on very quickly through the 70's and into the early 80's, with new models quickly eclipsing the performance of previous models, even modified ones.
The price is great however, and if it starts and runs well, you might just love it. $700 isn't much for any bike that runs.
Heck, I bought my son a 1980 KDX 175 (the first of the line) about 5 years ago for $1200. Again, not the best bike, but it only had about 1000 miles on it, max. It needed wheel bearings, brakes shoes, air cleaner (rotted away), lots of the rubber parts are disappearing as it get used. But the engine was healthy, it had NEW tires (likely the old ones rotted), started and ran pretty well. We continue to have a lot of carb problems, and I can't get a tank petcock, but it still runs.
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Those are some real good points, P... I would definitely take it for a spin first.
I'd be willing to change the suspension... the swingarm, shocks and forks are there cheap and would only take some minor fabricating and maybe some welding to change.
But I don't think I want to go to the trouble and expense to get the power I want out of this 360 motor if it just doesn't have it in 'er.
The whole point is the street-legal 2-stroke concept... having as close to a WFO motocross bike as I can get with a license plate on it. And keeping the whole thing under $1K.
I suppose I could even swap a later model IT400 engine in it, or change/modify the top end, but now I'd be getting into more work and $$$ than I'm willing to invest.
The Bandit accessories are looking better all the time. :lol:
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Some states (and provinces) would register the IT250 and 400 as street legal bikes. My buddy had his 79 IT250 registered when new. The cops gave him tickets for no rear view mirror, and to be legal, you were suppossed to have a battery to light the rear taillight for 1/2 hour after shut down, but a bunch of them got registered at the time, maybe the same in your area?
Maybe look around for an IT400 that slipped through as a legal bike. That's likely what you really want. Might be tough for under $1000 though.
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It's basically the same engine as your old IT400
Hey Zen....don't get your hopes up too far. The old DT's were piston port engines (pre reed valve). You might want to check this one out closely. I think the reed valve engines didn't hit the line until 1976? The IT series engines were quite different, but the IT 400 was 1979/1980 at its earliest?
The origional 360 enduro is NOT as quick as you might think. Somewhat ponderous, restrictive exhaust, very mildly ported. Never had any two stroke "snap" that your thinking about. There were lots of frame kits for the early DT-1's to try to make them handle better. The 73/74/75 were 2nd gen DT's, IIRC, but still not stellar in handling.
The IT400 was made from '76-'79. In '80 it was bumped up to a 425, then in '81-early '83 were 465's, then upped to 490's thru the end the series.
IIRC, a '73 360 would be a RT3 and a '74 would be DT360. I'm pretty sure by this stage in the game, the RT had "Torque Induction" - Yamaha's name for reed valves. The DT certainly did. I think only the earlest 360's (RT1) came w/o reeds. Yamaha was the maker that brought reeds to production bikes first, and their Enduro & MX lines were first to get them, with the RD street bikes right on their heels.
Some states (and provinces) would register the IT250 and 400 as street legal bikes. My buddy had his 79 IT250 registered when new. The cops gave him tickets for no rear view mirror, and to be legal, you were suppossed to have a battery to light the rear taillight for 1/2 hour after shut down, but a bunch of them got registered at the time, maybe the same in your area?
My IT400 had been snuck thru DMV. I had a friend at the local Yamaha shop that slipped my paperwork in with a batch of street bike sales from the dealership and I got my plate that way. Back then, you could've actually done it legally if you added mirrors, blinkers and a brake light. I never added any of that stuff, but then I just used the plate to keep the forest rangers happy when riding rural FS roads between trails and never ventured into towns with it.
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If the bike is as good or better than this DT175 on the Sprinfield, MO Craigslist (http://springfield.craigslist.org/mcy/372473672.html) and if that's an indicator of what bikes like this go for in your neck of the woods, then $700 is probably a good deal.
I looked on the Joplin & Springfield Craigslists, and the above bike was the only thing I found <$1000 that was an adult sized dual sport and didn't come from China.
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That 360 probably make around 30 to 35 horses, which is plenty for everything except racing. There's a 1979 DT175F for sale here (Wisconsin) with 6000 miles, asking price $800, but it looks really nice.
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Zen, for what it's worth, a buddy of mine had the DT400 version back in the day. It was a slug with a capital S. If you buy that 360.....DO NOT repeat DO NOT take it ANYWHERE where there is more than 6 inches of mud....no matter what tires it has on it. Those suckers are soooooo heavy that if you get it stuck in a bog, it'll take 3 men and a mule to get it out.
Trust me on this. I've got the hernia to prove it. :grin:
The other big problem they have is ground clearance. There just plain ain't any....at least for real dirt biking.
If you DO buy it, use it only on the street and for the occasional Sunday of modest fire-roading/cow-trailing. It'll work okay in either of those situations.
If you want a REAL off-road bike from that era, I'd look around for a PE400 Suzuki. Now that's a bike with off-roadability and it can be driven on the street as well since it has lighting of a sort.
Durable as heck, too.
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If the bike is as good or better than this DT175 on the Sprinfield, MO Craigslist (http://springfield.craigslist.org/mcy/372473672.html) and if that's an indicator of what bikes like this go for in your neck of the woods, then $700 is probably a good deal.
Thanks for looking that up, bud. :wink:
The 360 is actually in better shape as far as I can tell. It's the Yamaha green color, and has the same luggage rack. But the seat on the 360 is in perfect condition, the blue 175 looks like it has some tape and tears on it.
The 360 will need new tires, the ones on it are old and cracked... but he'll fix me up for another $50. And a new battery for free.
He also said I could scrounge through his 1 acre of junk bikes and take whatever suspension goodies I can scavenge for free, plus whatever 360 parts are there... could be a spare engine for all I know.
Those suckers are soooooo heavy that if you get it stuck in a bog, it'll take 3 men and a mule to get it out.
The other big problem they have is ground clearance. There just plain ain't any....at least for real dirt biking.
Rick, like I was saying above, I'm sure that a suspension upgrade would improve this old dinosaur quite a bit off-road, and there's several things I can do to lighten it up. Even as it sits, it's still a lot lighter than a 500cc 4-stroke in that era and price range.
As far as looking for other bikes... heck, I wasn't looking for this one! It's been sitting there for a long time. If I buy it, fine. If not, oh well, maybe something else will come along someday, in someone's front yard or at a garage sale or something.
Still making up my mind... ya'll's input is helping me out a lot though. Keep it coming! :motorsmile:
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According to this rather sparse wiki (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/List_of_Yamaha_motorcycles) on Yamahas, the green 360 would be a '74 DT360. The '73 was a RT3 and a '75 would be the DT400.
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According to this rather sparse wiki (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/List_of_Yamaha_motorcycles) on Yamahas, the green 360 would be a '74 DT360. The '73 was a RT3 and a '75 would be the DT400.
Actually, the bike I'm thinking of buying looks more like the DT3 in green.... it has the smaller tank, and the front fender down on the wheel. It's definitely a 360 though, and it is in original condition.
Did the DT3 come in a 360?
I don't know much about the dirt Yamahas. All my dirt bikes in the past were RM's.... from 125's up to my 465. The only off-road Yammy I ever had was a TT500 when I lived in Okanogan.
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I assume that "DT3" is a typo and you meant RT3?
In the early days of the Yamaha Enduros, each cc size had it's own two-letter code followed by a single digit number.
JT1-2 was the 60cc Mini-Enduro
HT1 was the 90
LT2-3 was the 100
AT1-3 was the 125
CT1-3 was the 175
DT1-3 was the 250
RT1-3 was the 360
In '74, they changed all the Enduro line to "DT" followed by the engine size (rounded off in typical m/c fashion, of course).
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I assume that "DT3" is a typo and you meant RT3?
In the early days of the Yamaha Enduros, each cc size had it's own two-letter code followed by a single digit number.
JT1-2 was the 60cc Mini-Enduro
HT1 was the 90
LT2-3 was the 100
AT1-3 was the 125
CT1-3 was the 175
DT1-3 was the 250
RT1-3 was the 360
In '74, they changed all the Enduro line to "DT" followed by the engine size (rounded off in typical m/c fashion, of course).
No, it wasn't a typo, that's what I was asking you. I said I didn't know that much about Yamaha off-road bikes. :roll:
So looking at the Wiki pics, the bike in question looks exactly like the RT3, except it is green and has a luggage rack.
I guess I'll have to look at the title to be sure.
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Hey Zen
Looking at the pictures of the RT-3, it DOES have Reed Valves, as Red01 suggested, otherwise looks very close to my old 250.
Comments stand, great reliable bikes in their day. NOT overly powerful, but I still rode my 250 on the secondary highways. Quite heavy and not great handlers (compared to newer bikes.) Flexible frame at the swingarm pivot, and flexible swingarm as well.
Remember, Yamaha upgraded the dirt bike line to the revolutionary (in it's day) "monoshock" starting in the late 70's. You might not find any decent used shocks/swingarm that will fit. Forks wouldn't be a problem...
But, if it starts and runs well, and you take it for a ride, you might like it, or hate it. I loved my old bike at the time, but I know I would NOT want it now. By 1982 everthing had better suspension and handling.
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Well, ya snooze ya lose. I called today to find out the exact year/model of the Yamaha and POOF! It was gone!
Somebody walked in and plunked down $900 for it yesterday. Funny, after sitting there for several years, I finally get serious about buying it and thar she goes... :sad:
Oh well, so much for that. Thanks ya'll for all your comments, suggestions, and information. I learned quite a bit about early 70's Yamaha 2-stroke Enduros, so it wasn't a total loss. :bigok: