You know the old adage about two kinds of riders....

[Red01]

But B. is wrong!

If you back off when the hard parts are starting to touch, the bike will settle on its suspension and hard parts touching will get worse, not better. I know the average instinct is to back off, but gassing it would be a better thing to do. Better than that though would be to hang off more to the inside and put the bike at a lesser angle.

Thanks Red01, I appreciate your insight here, and I think you're right.  My thought process was that carefully reducing throttle might allow you to reduce the lean angle, but I think you're correct that the resulting upset to the chassis would be worse.  In fact I would think chopping the throttle (the "oh s**t" reaction) would weight the front tire, reducing grip at the back.

I have always believed (and been taught) that if you get into a corner too hot you should hang on and stay committed to the turn, so I was struggling to figure out what I did wrong.  I was perhaps too focused on the idea that the footpeg contact contributed to the loss of traction at the rear tire, which other posters have called into question.

In any event, I will amend B. to read "If hard parts start to touch down in corners, reduce your overall pace when safe to do so."

Would you be willing to elaborate on why you suggest more throttle?  Wouldn't that use up more traction at the rear tire, which presumably is already too close to its limits?

If the back tire was already sliding, you wouldn't want to apply more throttle, but reducing throttle, even slightly, will still cause the suspension to settle.  In this case, your best bet would be to lean your body more and try to push the bike more upright to keep parts from dragging.

In this situation, you're on a thin line between a low side, saving it and a high side if the rear tire suddenly gains traction.

The best bet is to not ride this close to the edge on the street and save this sort of riding for track days... but we all have times when we're surprised with a condition that's different from what we expected and all this is a lot easier to say than to do when the circumstances arise.

So,... this brings up a question... what is the average bike set up for?  I.e. what is the weight and height of the rider assumed to be? 

And for that matter, if you're below the assumed weight and height... I assume that you don't just reverse what a heavier rider would do??  For instance,.. soft springs don't help anyone, right?? And most factory settings seem to be decidedly soft...

I don't know about the "average bike," but IIRC, the B12's springs seem to be set for a rider in the 140-160 lb. range... and I'm guessing the average B12 owner (at least in the US) is much higher than that, I know I am.  If the rider was below the factory's assumed weight, the springs that are too soft for me would be too stiff for them.  I'd think height doesn't fit much into the spring equation and is more an ergonomic one (seat height, bar reach), unless the person in extraordinarily top heavy - or maybe they wear a lead helmet. 

[TK421]

<snip>The best bet is to not ride this close to the edge on the street and save this sort of riding for track days... but we all have times when we're surprised with a condition that's different from what we expected and all this is a lot easier to say than to do when the circumstances arise.

Well said.  In my situation I had no warning that things were going wrong until I saw my bike sliding across the road, with me sliding behind it.  And that, as much as anything, is a powerful argument for wearing the right gear all the time.

I for one won't make that mistake again.

[CWO4GUNNER]

I agree that the wearing of protective gear is a given based on the facts of the environment and nothing else. However when it comes to superior riding skills, the difference between what needs to be decided in the course of an unfolding accident, and what needs to be acted upon instinctively, is the primary difference between what works and what doesn't. Serious track and Off road competitors and enthusiast mostly rely on self trained instinctive actions which means that the relationship between the the mind-body and the machine are much more intuitively matched in the actions and nuances of riding. My point is that if we were to take a perfectly new bike and have any of our own skills tested and measure before and after the benefit of track time or enduro training and experience, you would always emerge from the training a far more skilled rider, and with experience, vastly superior rider at avoiding accidents and injury, then your street only counterpart, always and almost without exception. So get the safety gear but more importantly get some type of formal training and continued experience beyond MSF training and street only riding. 

[stormi]

I don't know about the "average bike," but IIRC, the B12's springs seem to be set for a rider in the 140-160 lb. range... and I'm guessing the average B12 owner (at least in the US) is much higher than that, I know I am.  If the rider was below the factory's assumed weight, the springs that are too soft for me would be too stiff for them.  I'd think height doesn't fit much into the spring equation and is more an ergonomic one (seat height, bar reach), unless the person in extraordinarily top heavy - or maybe they wear a lead helmet. 

I mostly asked about height, cos I know for a fact I'm "below average" on that point.  I just don't know how far below.    I think I've only ever found one full sized bike that I could flat foot on.  (And it wasn't a KTM.)   So,.. if the springs were set "too heavy" for a rider, (all things being equal) would they be more likely to have traction problems, or would the bike, in essence become a little more "stable" in an equivalent situation? 

Part of the reason I ask, is that a lot of people say that the 919 is too softly sprung, but I've never had a problem.  That would either indicate I'm "less" than what the bike was intended to carry, or I'm not riding near as hard as they are.  Now,.. either or both could be true,.. so I'm curious.

[pmackie]

Correct suspension sag and spring rates are completely dependent on the weight the bike is carrying, but also on road surface, and the compromise between comfort and firm cornering characteristics.

If your much lighter than average, and don't carry much extra stuff, then your stock 919 springs are likely fine. Just set the preload to allow for 30-35% static sag, and as long as you don't bottom either end, and you happy with the "feel" in the corners, go ride it!!

If you find you bottom the forks under heavy braking, or over bumps too often, or if the bike tends to "wallow" in the corners, or run wide on exits, then firmer springs and more damping is likely necessary.

[H2RICK]

Well, TK, I'm one of the "haves", too. first road accident in 45+ years of riding....and all totally my fault. Pmackie was there for the whole thing although I think he may have been ahead of me and thus missed the "good stuff".
Nonetheless......my gear did a great job of protecting me. If I hadn't dislocated my left shoulder (it's been dislocated before),
I'd have picked my bike out of the ditch and rode on with the boys......
well, I might have stopped for a bit to collect myself. The left side of my helmet took a good lick when my head hit the ground and so I was pretty woozy for awhile....but not a drop of blood was shed and nary a scratch on me through the whole episode.
I'm a big believer in ATGATT and even moreso after my get-off.
Sounds like you came out of the deal a LOT better than I did.
As to corrective action on your part: pmackie's post re suspension settings has it pretty much nailed. My Gen 2.5 B12 felt just a tad soft with the factory settings and I weigh 170#....so I increased the front preload a bit and the back preload one notch. I increase the rear preload ANOTHER notch if I'm carrying my camping gear. I haven't messed with the rear damping since it seems to be okay.
Incidentally, suspension settings would have made NO difference in my crash. Better judgement on my part would have helped immensely, though.....

[stormi]

If your much lighter than average, and don't carry much extra stuff, then your stock 919 springs are likely fine. Just set the preload to allow for 30-35% static sag, and as long as you don't bottom either end, and you happy with the "feel" in the corners, go ride it!!

I don't think I'd say "much lighter"  , but I likely am lower than average.   The stock forks on the 2002 919 have no adjustment. This is why I wondered.  A lot of people were saying that the CBR600 front end was the way to go, but I wondered if, for me anyway, it might just be a waste of money.  Sounds like it might be.   I had a line on some 2004ish 919 forks (with full adjustment) that I was going to pick up, but the guy who was selling them had ordered another set off the net, and they arrived damaged.  Then he wrote the 919 off. (or more accurately, a cabbie pulling out in front of him did.)

If you find you bottom the forks under heavy braking, or over bumps too often, or if the bike tends to "wallow" in the corners, or run wide on exits, then firmer springs and more damping is likely necessary.

The 919 used to run a little wide in corners, but a little reading turned up a clue:  The forks are a little low from the factory.  If you slid them up about 5mm in the triples, it didn't have this tendency anymore.   I will say that Edmonton roads are less than optimal, and after a ride down St Albert Trail, I often wonder what I can do about my suspension, or if there IS anything I can do about my suspension.  It's all bumps ruts and potholes, and I feel like I went a round with a heavy weight fighter after a ride some days.  More than likely, stiffening things up would be the worst thing I could do to myself then? 

[pmackie]

It's all bumps ruts and potholes, and I feel like I went a round with a heavy weight fighter after a ride some days.  More than likely, stiffening things up would be the worst thing I could do to myself then? 

Likely yes. Generally stiffer springs = rougher ride. Better quality components can give more of both, if you want to pop the coin for a better shock and forks.

But, don't discount an fork oil change, and proper preload/sag setup. Setting your static sag for your normal riding weight and playing with the adjustments you do have are very worthwhile. For you non adjustable forks, you simply need to make longer preload spacers. A zip tie around the fork tube will help you set your static sag, and also let you know if you are using up your full stroke on your normal rides.

[Have Blue]

I agree with your first statement and believe it applies equally to "serious" street riders. When things go to Hell in a handbasket, there is never time to debate solutions.  Response needs to be preprogrammed through experience.


As for track practice, I again agree it will make one more skilled in handling the machine.
Beyond that, riding on a track bears no resemblance to riding on the street. I estimate
90% of surviving on the street is due to situational awareness.  When extreme riding skill is needed to keep your butt out of the fire, you have already passed the point of severly screwing up.  Martini Rossi would not be able to avoid/outride an accident if he did not see it coming.   Conversly, track practice may yield a false sense of security if someone feels they are safer on the street because they can drag a knee at 150 mph.  Anyone can twist a throttle, lean a bike and drag a knee.  It isnt particularly difficult.  What will keep you safe on the street is being able to track traffic vehicles around you, and knowing where they probably will be or could be while taking into account side streets, driveways, pedestrians, animals, road surfaces and debris.  Anytime, you're out there and you get a surprise, it only means one thing.  You screwed up and were not paying the attention you should have been.   I'm all for everyone acquiring all the skill they can, but I dont think track time is the most beneficial thing for a street rider to pursue if survival on the street is the purpose.  Everyone at some point will see an accident coming.  The problem is in seeing it coming in time to do something about it. The best insurance on the street is to learn to read traffic 3,4 or even 5 layers out and being able to see the "domino" effect.  You'll see the bad things developing and will not be where they are going to happen.  Or, in other words, you will avoid becoming the meat in the sandwich.  :-)

Just another outlook though.  Everyone is going to ride as they wish. 

Blue

 Serious track and Off road competitors and enthusiast mostly rely on self trained instinctive actions which means that the relationship between the the mind-body and the machine are much more intuitively matched in the actions and nuances of riding.

My point is that if we were to take a perfectly new bike and have any of our own skills tested and measure before and after the benefit of track time or enduro training and experience, you would always emerge from the training a far more skilled rider, and with experience, vastly superior rider at avoiding accidents and injury, then your street only counterpart, always and almost without exception. So get the safety gear but more importantly get some type of formal training and continued experience beyond MSF training and street only riding. 

Edited to make the quote appear as it should.

[smooth operator]

  Well at least it wasn't too bad a get off anyhow. +1 what Red said,the worst thing you could do if hard parts are scaping is to chop the throttle. It would be better to lift you butt of the seat,stay square with the bike and keep power on the rear wheel..
   As far as what Stormi said, the 1st thing you do to set up your bike is set your sag. I have mine set around 30mm(I think,it been awhile) My stock suspension on the Bandit was twice that much front and back. But bought differnt shock(s)springs and went with Race Tech gold valves and springs for my weight up front. It makes a world of difference.
     Sholdn't take much to get the bike back, and the body will heal on its own.+1 on the protective gear,if you had leathers on,you wouldn't have any body damage.All the gear in the world doesn't do any good if its hanging up in the closet.   Dan

[Vidrazor]

[[I should add that my jacket is an early generation Phoenix, maybe even first generation, and I have noticed that the mesh weave on the later jackets is tighter...In any event, I'm thinking about a perforated leather jacket, but I'm just not sure if it would be tolerable in the FL summer heat.  Any hot climate riders have any experience with this??]]

First, all nylon mesh jackets from the likes of JR , Icon, etc., are junk. Really. They will probably be OK if you are in a roll, but in a drag they will not do a thing. You just found out the hard way. Things can actually get worse as the meshes can (and have) embedded themselves into the skin, requiring nasty surgery to address. My JR outfits are collecting dust in my closet.

It's hard to say if perforated leather will offer any better support in a drag. My personal speculation is that it will simply shred and disintegrate.

Although they will all have their limits, the only useful materials are full leather, or high denier nylons. Kevlar is most ideal, but expensive. Of course, you can always ask the question "what price protection"? Full leather is obviously out for you in Florida, so meshes are the only option for you.

You CAN get useful abrasion protection from a synthetic mesh jacket, but the denier count (indicating fiber density) needs to be high. Ideally, you want 1000 denier or higher. At the very least, 600. Although I don't have a denier listing for the typical JR/etc. stuff, it's equivalent denier is somewhere around 120-150. You get the idea.

I've seen only two companies that offer gear with high denier meshes, Motoport in California (which is what I ride with) and another company who's name escapes me right now (I think it starts with V). I have a mesh jacket AND pants combo (you won't forget leg protection again, will you?) made from 22% Kevlar and the rest is 1000 denier nylon, coupled with tri-laminate armor. Motoport also has nylon-only jackets made of high-denier Cordura nylon. I highly suggest perusing the site over at http://www.motoport.com/. I'm not affiliated with these people at all, just a customer.

Needless to say, this stuff is expensive compared to the JR/etc. stuff, but there's a legitimate reason for it. Once you've had a significant fall, I don't think price really is part of the equation anymore, is it?

The other company (I wish I had some brain cells left to remember) had a mesh outfit made of 1000 denier nylon, and looked promising.

There's actually a third company in France (I forget the link right now, no brain cells left) offering riding gear in a material similar to Kevlar, but so far it's only been more fashion-oriented (as in jeans and stuff with no armor), but that may change over time. I think I may have posted a link somewhere on this site a while back about them. They had a video with a guy being dragged in denim, leather, and their material with the results of each. Hopefully they'll expand their line to full-blown riding gear with (hopefully) CE-2 armor.

Of course, most important is having good training to hopefully avoid accidents in the first place, but shit happens, no matter how skilled you may be. So ATGATT is really a must, but that gear must offer you truly useful protection in the first place. JR's only redeeming value is that they have the hottest girls on their website Seriously, they have to be credited with the idea of mesh jackets, as I believe they started the trend, but while their idea was brilliant, their execution has been dismal.

[TK421]

Thanks Vidrazor, some interesting points, and definitely food for thought, although I don't completely agree with your assessment of Joe Rocket gear.

In an ideal world, I guess we would all be wearing $500 Kevlar jackets, but the reality is many riders have to find the best balance of cost, protection, and comfort that they can.  My budget for a new jacket is about $200, so yes, I'll be looking at Joe Rocket (maybe a Reactor) and some perforated leather Tourmaster jackets.

I wore my Phoenix jacket when it was too hot to wear anything else.  I never expected it (or any mesh material) to provide abrasion protection, and of course it didn't.  Where I felt the jacket failed was that the sleeve did not stay in place after the initial impact.  I don't know if that's a failure of the jacket design or I simply didn't have the cuff/ sleeve adjuster tight enough.

I don't want to be in the position of defending Joe Rocket, because I've only owned the one piece of gear.  That being said, it is my opinion that most of their stuff provides a decent level of protection at affordable prices.  If all you can afford is a $99 Phoenix jacket, that's still miles better than riding in a t-shirt, which I see lots of riders doing down here.  Road rash sucks, but it heals a lot quicker than broken bones.

Of course, I'm still an idiot for wearing jeans when I could have thrown on my Fieldsheer overpants in about 10 seconds, but I sure won't do that again.

[Vidrazor]

[[...although I don't completely agree with your assessment of Joe Rocket gear.]]

Well, it's ultimately your decision as to how much protection you care to ride with. I'll agree with you that I'd rather see someone wearing a JR Phoenix than just a T-shirt, but, depending on the fall, you're really not that much above the T-shirt unfortunately. Which was my point.

[[I never expected it (or any mesh material) to provide abrasion protection, and of course it didn't.]]

Then what's the point in the investment? See below.

[[Where I felt the jacket failed was that the sleeve did not stay in place after the initial impact.  I don't know if that's a failure of the jacket design or I simply didn't have the cuff/ sleeve adjuster tight enough.]]

If you tug on your JR mesh, you'll notice it has quite a bit of elasticity. This was one of the first things I noticed about my own Phoenix, which started to make me wonder about it. Imagine the tug it will get when you hit and drag, and you can start to understand what happened on your fall. This is partly why I say the things I do about the JR jacket. It's stitching also leaves much to be desired as well, and little details like these lead up to a very undependable piece of gear.

Really, screw JR.  I can understand your financial limitations, but in that price range, Tourmaster has a mesh jacket that appears (on paper, anyway) to offer far better protection, and is roughly in the same price range as the Phoenix. Check this out:

http://tinyurl.com/2wgzzf

I would personally go for this over the JR crap ANY day if I couldn't afford my Motoport outfit. Even it's weakest denier density is far ahead of the JR junk, and it appears to have excellent density where it counts. I don't know what kind of protection your Fieldsheer pants offer you, but Tourmaster has a matching pair of mesh pants as well:

http://tinyurl.com/yrzql8

For roughly 300 bucks, you're pretty decently covered in a mesh outfit that has decent denier density and will actually give you some real protection versus the JR junk.

Again, if you go down hard enough, you're gonna break, and nothings going to protect you perfectly, but the better geared you are, the better chances you have of being relatively in one piece. If you're going to invest in protective riding gear, make it something that's, well, protective!

Remember, you can always wear this Tourmaster jacket (and pants) and still check out all the girls over at the JR website. 

[TK421]

...depending on the fall, you're really not that much above the T-shirt unfortunately. Which was my point.

Are you seriously suggesting a jacket with CE approved armor in the elbows and shoulder and a back protector is "not that much above a t-shirt?"

I never expected it (or any mesh material) to provide abrasion protection, and of course it didn't.

Then what's the point in the investment?

The point was the armor, and the impact protection it provided, and the fact that I could wear it without expiring when the temperature and humidity were both 97.  When I bought my Phoenix, it was the first and only mesh jacket out there.  During my little "get-off" I came down pretty hard on my left elbow, and escaped without so much as a bruise.  It was the slide that left the owie.  Don't think I could say that if I'd had a t-shirt on.

Again, I don't want to be in the position of defending JR, 'cause after my crash I ain't that big a fan!  There are many choices now, which of course is good, but not a lot of objective analysis.  We kind of end of relying on anecdotal evidence and gut-feeling.  There's also a fair amount of brand snobbery among riders, which doesn't serve anyone.  I will say that one of the few objective and thorough sources for gear evaluation I have found is the guys over at WebBikeWorld.  They are generally pretty positive about JR, but it's not like they crash test it.

I do like the look of the Tourmaster jacket you suggested (esp. the heavy material on the elbows!) and I am definitely putting the jacket on the short list, so thanks for that.  BTW, my Fieldsheer pants are the "4 Season Pants" and have pretty robust (1000 denier) polyester material on the impact areas.  I'm wearing the 'stich Darien now (bought back in the days when the wife and I were DINK's and could afford such things) and it's the "cool" season so I have some time to decide.

And where are these girls you speak of on the JR site???  I even went to the "Ladies" section and all I saw were a bunch of empty jackets!

[Vidrazor]

[[Are you seriously suggesting a jacket with CE approved armor in the elbows and shoulder and a back protector is "not that much above a t-shirt?"]]

As I said, depending on the fall. Yes, the armor is really the best thing about the JR, and yes, it will be better than a T in that respect. However, in a drag, the mesh is gonna give out pretty quick, and that's when it's not gonna be much different than a T. And guess what the armor is attached to? If you had slid enough, there'd be nothing left.

It will be good for initial impact, so you at least have that, but all modern jackets have good armor, so that's not really saying much about the JR. You really do have better options.

I know you're not trying to defend JR, but I was just saying that in the price range you're looking at, you have better options from the likes of Tourmaster, Rev-It!, etc. Personally I think the Tourmaster jacket looks like a pretty good deal.

[[And where are these girls you speak of on the JR site???  I even went to the "Ladies" section and all I saw were a bunch of empty jackets!]]

Hmmm, apparently they redid their whole site since I was there last, and JR wound up eliminating their only redeeming value!  However, did you miss this page?
http://tinyurl.com/324rgh
Some of the 'ol goodies are still there (eg, the lower left corner and central area).