Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: greg737 on October 25, 2013, 01:39:53 AM
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There's a long road ahead but you've got start somewhere, so here we go...
I'm starting the project here in late October and plan to have it up and running by late Springtime 2014 (if the world doesn't decide to end first). I decided to do this project in early October when I found the bike for sale on Craigslist. I guess the project officially began the day I bought the bike, 10 October, but since then all I've done is some thinking, planning and I've bought some parts off of Ebay and from manufacturers.
My GSF400 is a bit on the rough side cosmetically, it's a 1993 that is registered on a Salvage Title since being (gently) wrecked by either the first or second owner. Mechanically it seems to be pretty okay, and that includes the engine. I wonder if the bike didn't spend a lot of its 20 years just sitting in somebody's garage awaiting repairs. The odometer shows just short of 20,000 miles (but I don't put too much faith in the odometer readings on used vehicles).
Today, 24 October, was the first day I did actual work on anything so I'm counting it as "Day 1" of my project. And the item that kicked off the festivities was the arrival of a fuel tank I purchased off of Ebay.
Anybody recognize it? (I know the Bandit 400 community is pretty small)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0002_zpsaa968380.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0005_zps9911954d.jpg)
It has some light rust both inside and outside so I'm going to send it out to a shop that will do a complete recondition job on it, but before I could do that I needed to make a couple of little dremel cuts to open up the petcock orifice a bit.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0008_zpsf8494900.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0023_zpsa3c0330f.jpg)
This will allow me to mount a Pingle Fuel Injection manifold in place of the bike's original petcock. The fuel injection manifold has two tubes, an outflow and an inflow. I plan to use a Honda TRX420 Rancher ATV external fuel pump and it needs to be able to return excess fuel to the fuel tank.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0029_zps56b07fba.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0026_zpsf7a33a3f.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0027_zpsa2606e29.jpg)
Now the tank is ready to be reconditioned and primed for painting, so it's all boxed up and ready to ship.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/7f97b1d1-b640-41d8-a4a6-0d92acb5b6da_zps6f462c5c.jpg)
There it is, the first post of my GSF400FI Bandit project.
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A man and a plan! You stateside or across the pond?
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A man and a plan! You stateside or across the pond?
I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
Found my "new to me" Bandit 400 via a Craigslist add in Portland, OR. According to the guy I bought it from the bike spent most of its life in the Seattle area where the damp, rainy winters would go a long way toward explaining the relatively low miles on the odometer (if true).
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I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
Found my "new to me" Bandit 400 via a Craigslist add in Portland, OR.
Where exactly? I'm in Portland myself. PM me if you don't want to be public.
There is at least one other B4 in portland, I see it every once in a while, but always going the other way and I never get to stop the owner. It's flat black w/ red frame -- that's all the detail I've gathered from high-speed encounter ;)
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Nice.... Ill be following your build please keep us updated. I used a DR350 petcock it works fine just need to make sure I turn it off after running
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I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
Found my "new to me" Bandit 400 via a Craigslist add in Portland, OR.
Where exactly? I'm in Portland myself. PM me if you don't want to be public.
Actually I'm in Spokane. I bought the bike in the Kenton neighborhood on Portland's north side. Had to ride it home to Spokane from there. (So thanks to me there's now 1 less Bandit 400 in Portland)
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I'm in the Pacific Northwest.
Found my "new to me" Bandit 400 via a Craigslist add in Portland, OR.
Where exactly? I'm in Portland myself. PM me if you don't want to be public.
Actually I'm in Spokane. I bought the bike in the Kenton neighborhood on Portland's north side. Had to ride it home to Spokane from there. (So thanks to me there's now 1 less Bandit 400 in Portland)
gah! Thanks to me there's one less Bandit 400 in Spokane! (I move to PDX from there in 2010). Ah well, so it goes.
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That's my old bike that Greg bought. Glad to hear that it made the trip back to Spokane. It's good to know that it went to a good home. Enjoy and good luck with your project! :bigok:
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That's my old bike that Greg bought. Glad to hear that it made the trip back to Spokane. It's good to know that it went to a good home. Enjoy and good luck with your project! :bigok:
Thanks Brandon.
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Today I began the process of relocating the battery and overflow bottle. I need to use the space that they normally occupy for the fuel pump and the Microsquirt ECU. The Honda TRX420 fuel pump needs a space about 4 inches wide by 8 inches high and that piece of space has to be below the level of the fuel tank's petcock.
So I took some measurements and determined that the battery holder (along with a slightly modified overflow bottle) can be mounted under a properly sized solo cowl. The problem is that apparently nobody makes a solo cowl for the Bandit 400 any more. And I don't know if any of the ones that were made would have had the open volume underneath that I need. So I'm going to make one.
I will be using the Microsquirt to control ignition so I have removed the Ignition box from the solo cowl area.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0130_zps96ad1bd5.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0131_zpsbd233276.jpg)
I'm using the tougher, sand-able type of floral arrangement foam to make the "Plug" that will serve as the pattern for the fiberglass work that will form my solo cowl.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0133_zpscdfc3cfb.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0135_zps83d52d62.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0138_zpsad1a4ce8.jpg)
This is just one evening of work, there's a long way to go to produce a completed solo cowl...
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Got back into the garage today. More refinements to the solo cowl "plug", sanding and shaping and trying to make it symmetrical.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0153_zps76c1be3d.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0154_zpsad351633.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0158_zps461178e6.jpg)
It's getting there. I'm planning on changing the contour of the seat, it will be flatter at its rear with none of the original's "upslope" at the rear end. Instead of the "upslope" there will be a small flat pad on the front end of the solo cowl.
I'm planning to use the "lost foam" method of fiberglass part construction. When I get the plug to its final shape I'll spray it with several coats of Plasti Dip. Then I'll wax it with mold release wax and then spray it with hairspray, both of these steps are to insure that the fiberglass piece does not stick to the plug. When the fiberglassing is completed I will open up a hole in the Plasti Dip coating on the bottom of the plug and pour Acetone on it. The Acetone will eat up all of the plug's styrofoam and the results will simply pour out. Then I'll be able to just grab the edge of the Plasti Dip coating and pull it out like a deflated balloon. This will leave me with a perfect fiberglass solo cowl.
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:thumb:
Looking great! I've wanted to do this for some time. My previous bandit had the factory cafe fairing and solo cowl and it was so pretty.
It's hard to tell from the pictures -- will the battery really fit in there?
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Yes, it will fit.
Look back up at the first 2 pictures of my battery-relocation post (November 2). The white string line that you see in the picture is the top of the solo cowl (The battery holder's original tall connection points will be cut off and welded back on at a much lower point).
I plan to cut out a battery holder sized hole in the floor in the fender so the battery holder can be mounted vertically. This cut-out will give me about one inch (maybe one and a half inches) of further clearance. The level of the bottom of the battery holder will be located between the frame rails where the rear tire cannot reach (the shock reaches its travel limiting "bump stop" before the tire reaches this point).
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I know some of the cafe guys use smaller batteries which might save you some space if needed.
http://antigravitybatteries.com/small-case-batteries/
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I'm planning to use the "lost foam" method of fiberglass part construction. When I get the plug to its final shape I'll spray it with several coats of Plasti Dip. Then I'll wax it with mold release wax and then spray it with hairspray, both of these steps are to insure that the fiberglass piece does not stick to the plug. When the fiberglassing is completed I will open up a hole in the Plasti Dip coating on the bottom of the plug and pour Acetone on it. The Acetone will eat up all of the plug's styrofoam and the results will simply pour out. Then I'll be able to just grab the edge of the Plasti Dip coating and pull it out like a deflated balloon. This will leave me with a perfect fiberglass solo cowl.
Great work so far.. I'll watch with interest' I've come across--- "using the tougher, sand-able type of floral arrangement foam to make the "Plug"---before...But I've never heard of "lost foam" or "Plasti Dip" or if I have I haven't seen the possibility, I just google them and understand little bit more.
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Which EFI system will you be using? I am very interested in your project. It sounds like it will fix two issues these bikes have. Ignition system and carburetors...
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The ECU I'll be using is the Microsquirt by Bowling & Grippo. About 5 years ago I did a similar fuel injection conversion on a 2005 Kawasaki EX250, which turned out great and has provided many miles of riding enjoyment over the last 4 years, so I've got a lot of prior experience (and mistakes) to build on with this project.
The big parts of my system will be: Microsquirt ECU, Honda TRX420/TRX500 fuel pump, Honda Grom fuel injectors (94 cc/min at 50 psi), Suzuki GSX-R600 (shorty) Coil-on-Plug sticks with a Yamaha YZF-R1 plugwire harness, DIYAutotune Quadspark four-channel ignition module, Innovate Motorsports LC-2 Wideband O2 sensor controller w/Bosch 5-wire sensor and standalone A/F ratio gauge.
Of course there are a bunch of other little details (FI and ignition systems "black magic" stuff) and a supporting cast of bits-and-pieces to deal with in this project, so that just amounts to a "broad brushstrokes" outline of it.
I'm on a bit of a work break from the project this month, lots of family time with relatives for Thanksgiving, but I plan on having this thing up and running by late spring/early summer.
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Very cool project. I've had MS on both of my Sciroccos for about 5 years now. Can Microsquirt use a bluetooth adapter for programming via smartphone? Do you have a stock ignition map or are you going to figure a new one by trial and error.
I like where you're going with the solo cowl. When I made mine, I used cardboard to match the shape of the tail and covered it with packing tape as a mold that would release the carbon fiber without issue. I tried using floral foam but found it messy and difficult to match the contours of the under tray.
(http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n17/sandrunner/Bandit/IMAG0342_zpsbf0eae8c.jpg)
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that seat cowl looks nice. It's on my project list someday. Also, I like the alternative paint job. Not colors I'd personally pick, but I applaud your departure from the more common color schemes.
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I've had MS on both of my Sciroccos for about 5 years now.
That's funny to hear that you're a Scirocco guy. I'm one also. I had two, a Mars Red 1981 "S" model and an Alpine White 1980 "S" model. Loved both of them, classic 1970s "automotive origami" from the pen of Giorgetto Giugiaro himself.
Judging by the patches on the wall behind your Bandit I'd guess you were military. I'm retired Air Force.
Can Microsquirt use a bluetooth adapter for programming via smartphone?
I don't know much about that. On my Kawasaki EX250 project I always used a USB-adapted serial port cable and a crappy old Netbook computer. Maybe I should try something a bit more up to date for the Bandit project.
Do you have a stock ignition map or are you going to figure a new one by trial and error.
I don't have a stock ignition map so I'll be figuring out that part as I go along unless I find somebody with a similar bike to copy from. On the fueling side of the house I believe that the MS2/Extra AFR and VE tables from my Kawasaki EX250 project will serve as a very good starting point for the Bandit. My EX250 project was "fuel-only" so it doesn't have an ignition map to donate to the Bandit project.
I see your Bandit still has its center stand. My bike's stand is long gone, one of the bike's prior owners took it off. I'm guessing he ditched it because of clearance issues with the Yoshimura pipe. That's okay with me because the only logical place I can weld the O2 sensor bung onto the exhaust pipe will place the O2 sensor body right in the space that the center stand pivots used to occupy. When I get the bike completely disassembled for painting I'm going to have to grind off the center stand pivot points.
I'm going to produce two solo cowl plugs from two different types of styrofoam (one is green floral foam, the other is pink insulation foam), then I'll fiberglass both of them at the same time. My prior experience with producing fiberglass parts tells me that no matter how hard I try to make them both come out perfect I will instead end up with one that I love and one that I hate, so I'm just going to go ahead and make two.
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That's funny to hear that you're a Scirocco guy. I'm one also. I had two, a Mars Red 1981 "S" model and an Alpine White 1980 "S" model. Loved both of them, classic 1970s "automotive origami" from the pen of Giorgetto Giugiaro himself.
I had a 1978 till about a month ago. After 19 years as a DD, I finally had to let it go. My wife still has her 1986, but it's just not the same. I will say that the difference between generations is phenominal from a comfort and driving perspective.
Judging by the patches on the wall behind your Bandit I'd guess you were military. I'm retired Air Force
12 Years active AF so far. An upcoming assignment is one of the big reasons for selling the 1978 Scirocco. Too many toys/vehicles to move.
I don't know much about that. On my Kawasaki EX250 project I always used a USB-adapted serial port cable and a crappy old Netbook computer. Maybe I should try something a bit more up to date for the Bandit project.
I've got a netbook dedicated to the exact same thing. Tunerstudio works great. I've finally started using a smart phone for tuning though. It's much nicer for on the fly tweaks.
I don't have a stock ignition map so I'll be figuring out that part as I go along unless I find somebody with a similar bike to copy from. On the fueling side of the house I believe that the MS2/Extra AFR and VE tables from my Kawasaki EX250 project will serve as a very good starting point for the Bandit. My EX250 project was "fuel-only" so it doesn't have an ignition map to donate to the Bandit project.
You've probably already seen this, but the builder may have a "starter" map. I'm not sure if he's running fuel only or fuel and spark.
http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=23094&p=144968&hilit=gsf400#p144968
I see your Bandit still has its center stand. My bike's stand is long gone, one of the bike's prior owners took it off. I'm guessing he ditched it because of clearance issues with the Yoshimura pipe. That's okay with me because the only logical place I can weld the O2 sensor bung onto the exhaust pipe will place the O2 sensor body right in the space that the center stand pivots used to occupy. When I get the bike completely disassembled for painting I'm going to have to grind off the center stand pivot points.
Sounds like an excellent idea. I've kept my center stand as I've still got the factory Japan market stainless steel exhaust with a CBR slip on.
I'm going to produce two solo cowl plugs from two different types of styrofoam (one is green floral foam, the other is pink insulation foam), then I'll fiberglass both of them at the same time. My prior experience with producing fiberglass parts tells me that no matter how hard I try to make them both come out perfect I will instead end up with one that I love and one that I hate, so I'm just going to go ahead and make two.
I'm currently restoring a 1968-72 Zink formula vee and it seems like the fiberglass bodywork never quite ends up just how I want it. Fortunatly it's a long term project and I've got friends that restore old boats so the advise is always free.
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It sure has been quiet around here lately. I'm sure the holidays are always pretty slow.
But now it's time to get back to work...
Here's an overview of what I'm doing to my 1993 Bandit:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ffac8158-4073-4d01-8688-7ad726e767f9_zps4ab72d91.png)
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Looks cracking Greg, are you going to incorporate the lighting circuit in with the EFI system or keep it separate?
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On my first fuel injection conversion project (a Kawasaki EX250) I kept as much of the bike's original wiring harness as I could. But there's a lot of wiring that has to be added for the fuel injection system. On the EX250 the added wiring just about doubled the size of the harness. I think that on this Bandit 400 project I might be a little more inclined to morph the two together (the bike's original harness and the fuel injection wiring) wherever it makes the most sense to do it that way.
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I've been busy with work and family for the last couple of months now I'm finally finding time to proceed with my Bandit project.
It's not really a fuel injection related item but I wanted to upgrade the Bandit's cooling system.
If you look at Suzuki's current motorcycles (any from the last 10 years, really) you'll see that they plumb in a small radiator bypass coolant line that runs from the thermostat housing to the return line into the bike's water pump. As an example you can easily see this line on the SV 650 where it connects into the water pump housing (it faces inward, toward the engine, but you can look downward on the water pump housing and see it).
The Bandit 400's stock cooling system configuration has no direct bypass line. Instead, every bit of coolant that circulates has to go through the radiator before it gets back to the engine. The Bandit's stock thermostat has five small holes in it to allow a little bit of constant flow to occur (actually, four of the holes are dedicated to flow while the fifth hole is at the very top of the thermostat to bleed out air bubbles when the system is serviced).
My modified Bandit system will not have any of these flow holes in the thermostat, only a single little hole at the top for bleeding bubbles out of the system. To provide a constant flow of coolant my modified system will have a bypass line from the thermostat housing to the radiator return line.
For the more visual among us, here are the pictures...
Those of you who have looked at the Bandit 400's thermostat housing in the past may have noticed that it has an unused port on the bottom. This port was used on the GSX-R400 where it holds a small temperature sensor. Because this casting was produced for both the GSX-R and the Bandit, every Bandit has this extra port.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0190_zps4ba9d146.jpg)
During production the housings that were designated for installation on Bandit 400s didn't have this extra port drilled through into the housing. For my modification I drilled it through and tapped 1/8 NPT threads into it.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0189_zps035c3d1b.jpg)
Here's a picture of the bits-n-pieces. The blue fitting is a Koso 22mm thermostat adaptor. I re-tapped the threads in the Koso adaptor to accept a 1/8 NPT 90 degree fitting with a 3/8 inch hose barb on it. The brass colored item is a standard General Motors water temperature sensor and the wiring pigtail that goes with it. This sensor has 3/8 NPT threading so I got an adaptor that has the same threading as the Bandit's thermostat which are 16mm/1.5 pitch. The 90 degree fitting at the bottom is the other end of the bypass line. The General Motors temperature sensor will take the place of the Bandit's radiator fan switch. It will be wired into the Microsquirt ECU (the Microsquirt will control the Bandit's radiator fan).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0191_zps6bdca0f0.jpg)
... Another view with everything lightly assembled
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0192_zps667b7a3d.jpg)
Here's the Bandit 400's stock radiator coolant return hose with the Koso adaptor sitting in the approximate position it will eventually be installed in.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0194_zps4e06e347.jpg)
... and another.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0193_zpse4203d55.jpg)
Here's a picture of the thermostats. On the left is the new one, it is a 195 degree Stant brand thermostat and on the right is the Bandit 400's original thermostat (which opens at 175 degrees). You can see three of the five constant-flow holes in the original thermostat. Before I install the replacement Stant thermostat I'll drill a little bubble bleed hole at the top of the thermostat's flange, like the Bandit's original has.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0206_zps354c82ba.jpg)
... another view.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0209_zpsbfa849e5.jpg)
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I've also been looking into the bike's carbs.
In the near future I will be doing some machining of the carbs to prepare them for the addition of an injector array (holders, injectors and fuel rail). I'm using the secondary injector array from a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R, the ones that are mounted on the bike's airbox (most of the newer Japanese 4 cylinder supersport bikes have 8 injectors now, 2 per cylinder). This secondary injector array had the perfect spacing to match up with the Bandit's carbs and the injectors are also the ideal flow rate for the Bandit's 100cc cylinders.
I'm keeping the Bandits carbs because, 1. they fit the bike (Duh!) 2. they have CV slides.
So as I disassembled my project bike's carbs I was happy to find that they are in excellent shape, very clean and undamaged. Except for the CV slide springs. I only rode my project bike three times before I took it off the road to begin work on it. During those rides I noticed that the CV slides were obviously slamming open as soon as the engine developed even the slightest vacuum. I suspected that one of the prior owners had done some sort of "boy racer" modification to them.
When I took the carbs apart I found that somebody had clipped the springs to shorten them. I went on the web and found a few pictures of the Bandit's CV springs and counted the windings. A stock Bandit CV slide spring has 38 or 39 turns in its winding. The clipped springs in my carbs only have 34 turns. No wonder the CV slides slam open so quickly when I twist the throttle.
Here's a picture of my CV slide springs. If you look closely you can see that the top of each spring has been clipped and doesn't have the usual tighter looping of the metal at that end.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0187_zpsed9f9be5.jpg)
Here's a picture of my carbs and the Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R secondary injector array.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0195_zps0bec54f9.jpg)
... and another of the injector array. The injectors in it flow 160cc/min at 43psi.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0198_zpsf62951f1.jpg)
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In late October of last year I sent the fuel tank out to be reconditioned. It came back to me in mid December and it certainly looks like they did a very thorough job on it.
One of the protective measures of the Fuel Tank Renu process is an extra-thick coating on the outside bottom of the tank. I can tell that they really did put a lot of rust-proofing on the tank's bottom because it's the end of January now and the tank's bottom surface has only just now stopped feeling tacky and smelling up the garage.
I guess it's a good thing that I wasn't ready to use the fuel tank right away. Right now I'm not expecting to have the bike painted (including the fuel tank) until sometime in late February or early March. I'm almost ready to send the frame and suspension swing-arm out to be powdercoated in early February.
First, here's what the tank looked like when it arrived in the mail from Ebay. It was in pretty fair condition, with only light rust inside and on the outside bottom. In this "before" picture you're seeing its best side.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0002_zpsaa968380.jpg)
Here's a couple of pictures of the fuel tank as it came back to me from the Moyer Fuel Tank Renu people.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0217_zps85ba00ba.jpg)
I wouldn't know how to take a picture of the fuel tank's inside surface, but it now has a very dark, brownish-red colored coating on its interior.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0221_zpsaf4e0d65.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0218_zps20cfe232.jpg)
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I'm going to upgrade the Bandit's ignition system components.
I'm replacing the bike's two standard coils, coil wires and plug wires with '05 Honda CBR-600RR Coil-on-Plug units. These Coil-on-Plug sticks are known in the do-it-yourself fuel injection world as "shorty" coils because they are the absolute shortest ones available. The Bandit needs these really short coils because the plug wells in its engine's head are rather shallow. Even these "shorty" coils stick up well above the engine's cam cover.
The Microsquirt ECU will be taking over the ignition control duty from the Bandit's original CDI box (which will be removed from my project bike). Due to heat and electrical noise/interference issues the Microsquirt ECU doesn't have high-voltage ignitors built into it, instead it only sends out 5 volt "logic level" signals to a separate ignition module. The stand-alone ignition module that I've chosen is the Quadspark module produced by DIYautotune in Georgia.
Here's a couple pictures of the bits-n-pieces for the bike's ignition system. '05 Honda CBR-600RR "shorty" Coil-on-Plug sticks, connector plugs cut from an '09-'11 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R wiring harness and the Quadspark ignition module.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0214_zpse4b4ef2f.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0215_zpsde9aee4a.jpg)
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:thanks: Thanks for posting this up Greg, i find this really really interesting.
You really are going all out on this!
Can't wait to see how it all runs :motorsmile:
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Great job Greg! What kind of spray pattern does the ZX-6R injectors have? Their flow should be fine. I've been using injectors from the CBR600RR which have about the same flow IIRC with no problem. What I'm planing to do next is to hack the reservoir and fit an intank pump from a K8 GSRX600. I think my current simple inline fuel pump setup may not be adequate on some occassions. Also I can put back on the airbox after pump and pressure regulator are gone.
Waiting to see your ignition setup. :popcorn2: I did not dare to mess with it. Think I'll just copy you, with your kind permission of course!
:congrats:
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Great job Greg! What kind of spray pattern does the ZX-6R injectors have? Their flow should be fine. I've been using injectors from the CBR600RR which have about the same flow IIRC with no problem. What I'm planing to do next is to hack the reservoir and fit an intank pump from a K8 GSRX600. I think my current simple inline fuel pump setup may not be adequate on some occassions. Also I can put back on the airbox after pump and pressure regulator are gone.
Waiting to see your ignition setup. :popcorn2: I did not dare to mess with it. Think I'll just copy you, with your kind permission of course!
:congrats:
Good to hear from you again.
I took one of these ZX-6R secondary injectors over to a shop here in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho and had it tested in a professional injector test rig. The injector is tested in a clear plastic enclosure so you get to watch the injector firing. This injector has a good, broad and foggy spray pattern to it which should be perfect for my application (injecting only a couple of inches upstream from the valves).
The ZX-6R secondary injectors tested out to 160 cc/min at 43.5 psi. I'm planning to run a Honda TRX-500 Rancher fuel pump which I believe runs at 50 psi (which would bump up the injector flow rate to 170 cc/min). I'm hoping to have this fuel pump tested next week at the same shop to verify its operating pressure and to make sure of its ability to provide all the fuel flow that the Bandit 400 requires. I'm still a fan of the externally mounted fuel pump and the Honda TRX-500 pump has been a great solution in my Kawasaki EX-250 project. And I have a plan to relocate the battery to the bike's tail, under a solo cowl that will take the place of the passenger seat, which will allow me to mount the fuel pump down near the bike's shock.
Now that I can feel springtime coming I'm stepping up the pace on this project. Hope to have it well along by late March, early April.
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Hi Greg,
keep us updated!
I loved reading your posts when I would frequent the Ninja 250 boards. My Ninja was taken away and now it's great to see you again on another bike I own. You have great taste =P
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Back in the garage today, disassembling the Bandit, and this was my surprise of the day.
Suzuki calls this item a "Signal Generator Rotor" but the everyone in the Do-it-yourself fuel injection world calls it a "Trigger Wheel"
A while back I purchased a used 1993 Bandit 400 trigger wheel off of Ebay, it matched the pictures and drawings that I saw in the Bandit 400 Service manual. But today, when I took the left engine side cover off I found that my Bandit has a different trigger wheel.
This isn't the first time I've had confusion related to a product of the Denso Corperation. Those guys produce some strangely configured stuff.
These two trigger wheels both fit onto my Bandit identically (after I removed the original trigger wheel I test-installed the Ebay purchased trigger wheel and it fits). The Top-Dead-Center reference mark on both of them is lined up in the exact same place with regard to the Woodruff Key slot that keeps them properly located on the crankshaft.
It's pretty obvious that these trigger wheels are part of two different versions of the Denso ignition system that was installed on the Bandit 400 which makes me wonder if my engine might not be a 1993. I don't know much about the history of this bike, I guess it's possible that the bike's original engine was replaced at some point.
Can anybody provide any information about this situation? (The identification sticker on my Bandit's frame has a manufactured date of 8/92 stamped on it)
Anyway... here are the two trigger wheels.
First up, the trigger wheel I just removed from my Bandit
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0231_zpsb2e82977.jpg)
And here's the trigger wheel I bought off of Ebay.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0230_zpsd9e179f3.jpg)
(I even weighed them both and they are within an ounce of each other.)
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There were two distinct Bandit 400's in the US: the pre-93's and 93.
Looks like you got one of each, I don't know which one is which though. 93's had different cams, CDI and obviously cam trigger.
I'd ask someone with a known earlier motor for photo confirmation or scour the internuts. Perhaps ask the seller what year the bike was?
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There were two distinct Bandit 400's in the US: the pre-93's and 93.
Looks like you got one of each, I don't know which one is which though. 93's had different cams, CDI and obviously cam trigger.
I'd ask someone with a known earlier motor for photo confirmation or scour the internuts. Perhaps ask the seller what year the bike was?
Thanks, that's the sort of information I was looking for.
With that information in mind I've just spent some time looking around online and I do see that the U.S. Bandit 400s were made up of two groups: the "400M" (or "400N", I'm not completely sure) from 1991 until November of 1992, then from November of 1992 until they stopped importing them it was the "400P". As I mentioned in my last post, my Bandit has a build-date of 8/92 stamped on the frame sticker.
What are the main differences between the two sub-groups of U.S. Bandit 400?
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A while back I sent the exhaust header out to be media-blasted and then ceramic coated. Here's what it looks like, before and after...
Here's a couple of pics of what the header looked like on the bike when I brought it home...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0111_zps23626e7f.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0110_zps56ca6e39.jpg)
I don't know a lot about this bike's history, but I think the bike has a Yoshimura exhaust system on it. Here's a few "before and after" pics...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0119_zpsac26fd36.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0232_zpsbe630be3.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0122_zps754f2c3d.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0239_zps9207489a.jpg)
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Here's where I'm going to mount the threaded bung that will hold the Bosch wideband oxygen sensor. It will be welded onto the pipe located on the silver spot where I've Dremeled off the coating.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0120_zps2d33ee5a.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0235_zpsbaecedbe.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0236_zps6df37fc7.jpg)
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The electrical system of my Bandit will be undergoing big changes as I add all the fuel injection bits-n-pieces.
The Bandit electrical system will now have to supply power to the Fuel Pump, which it never had to do before. This will also include things like an Idle Valve (which is an automatic, ECU-controlled, version of Choke) and the Wideband Oxygen Sensor controller which has a circuit in it that provides electrical current to quickly warm up the sensor to its proper operating temperature. There are also minor electrical draws from the Microsquirt ECU and a number of sensors (Air Temp, Water Temp, Throttle Position Sensor, Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensors, etc.)
You really can't change/modify/improve the bike's generator, but you can handle the power it makes in a more efficient way to make the most of its potential. A modern Rectifier/Regulator that employs MOSFET technology is a way to do this.
There will be more demand on the bike's electrical system so I'm making a few changes to insure that it's as healthy as possible. It could be that my Bandit's original R/R unit is actually in good condition, but I don't know that for certain, and it is over 20 years old now so I'm just going to replace it with something newer that has upgraded technology.
This will be the biggest electrical system upgrade item I'm implementing, a new-generation Rectifier/Regulator (MOSFET type) from an '07-'08 Yamaha YZF-R1. Here's the original Bandit R/R unit (on the right-hand side) in a side-by-side comparison with the Yamaha YZF-R1 unit.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0244_zps2e45dc12.jpg)
The new item is a bit bigger than the original so it will require some creativity to get it mounted on the Bandit.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0247_zps5523927c.jpg)
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Just make sure the 02 doesn't hang too low and that it catches the most of the exhaust. I'd mount it just a little further down. That is the Yosh 4-2-1 as well. Nice pipe.
I know that the redline is not as high on the 93 bikes and that the power delivery is a little different, outside of that I'm only speculating. Funny thing is that I have run a 93 CDI on my 91: no problem, just a lower redline.
I'm running a CBR MOSFET RR on my bike, I got tired of dealing with the standard type burning out (went through 2). Since it was larger, I mounted it underneath the seat. Airflow isn't as important because it runs much cooler but it gets plenty back there. If you cam get the plugs, it will make for a much cleaner installation. Just about everything matches up. Search on the SV forums, they do this swap all the time.
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I'm making an effort to get my Bandit's frame and swingarm sent off for powedercoating.
With a few days off this week and nothing else to do I'm working hard to tear the bike down to its component parts. This is the first time I've taken a motorcycle completely apart and I'm not enjoying it but I know it has to be done. My Bandit is 20 years old now and it needs this sort of attention.
Today I got the engine removed from the frame (it was a cold and snowy day here in Spokane so I rolled it outside for pics:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0260_zps57ecfe06.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0258_zpsfd297206.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0255_zpsffa9d0e9.jpg)
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As I was disassembling the Bandit I decided to drain the oil and send a sample to Blackstone Laboratories for analysis. Because I don't know much about my Bandit's history I wanted to see what a used oil analysis said about the engine's health.
I got the used oil analysis back from Blackstone today and I'm pretty pleased with what is says. The numbers on my Bandit's oil seem to compare pretty well alongside the used oil analysis reports from other healthy motorcycle engines (that are within my Bandit's age/milage range). I went to bobistheoilguy.com to find some used oil reports to compare mine to.
It's a relief to see that the engine isn't eating itself.
When I get the bike back together and running I'll eventually send in another sample, probably from the second oil change after getting it back on the road.
Here's the used oil analysis from my Bandit. Bear in mind that I didn't know what brand of oil was in it, or what weight of oil it was or how many miles were on the oil. I told all of this to the Blackstone people when I sent the oil in to them. That's why some of the comments are very general in nature. Usually they are much more specific with their commentary on the analysis.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/d74945ad-4c6f-4915-8c45-5355ed7275c6_zps8df2b478.png)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/dd9f7dd2-d6f0-4fc5-aba0-046de2de210f_zps3b889cd0.png)
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:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Managed to get back into the garage during the last 3 days. Unfortunately, I had to spend a lot of this time just cleaning up the parts of the Bandit. It's 21 years old and now that I've got it completely disassembled I'm seeing how horribly dirty it really was. Also, I had to spend some time cleaning up my garage work-space, which was a real pain but now I feel good because it means that I'm ready to begin "Part 2" of the project, the re-building phase.
The one piece of work on the project that I was able to get done this week was modifying the Bandit's header to accept the threaded sensor bung that will hold the Bosch Wideband Oxygen Sensor. I had to do a lot of very careful measuring and eye-ball work to insure that the threaded sensor bung and the wideband oxygen sensor will remain clear of the frame and engine and the arc of the suspension movement.
Here are a few pics of the work on the Bandit's Yoshimura header:
In this picture you can see the hole that I've cut into the header's collector. The hole appears to be oblong because it is. The angle at which the threaded bung had to be mounted (to clear all of the bike's other components) required me to do quite a bit of Dremel work on both the original drill hole in the collector and the threaded sensor bung (to conform it to the header collector's compound curves).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0262_zpsb37855b5.jpg)
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Another view...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0264_zpsc1bb451c.jpg)
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The bright silver-colored area around the hole is where I have removed (more Dremel work) the black ceramic coating from around the hole. The ceramic coating would have made welding the threaded bung onto the header either very difficult or impossible, so it had to go.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0265_zps7502575b.jpg)
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Here's what the sensor bung looked like before I went at it with my Dremel.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0268_zps6ca71ed6.jpg)
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... and here it is after a lot of shaping and test-fitting. In these pictures it might look like a simple, straight cut but it's actually shaped to conform to the intersection of the radius of two circles (which you can see when you look at the header collector).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0269_zpsd8f410d3.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0270_zps7fb90980.jpg)
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Here's how the threaded bung would have fit before being shaped...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0272_zps889207ad.jpg)
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And here's how it fits after the Dremel work...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0276_zpsaba7604d.jpg)
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Here's the Bosch wideband oxygen sensor and the threaded bung...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0277_zps3a764547.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0278_zps1e6a1ad3.jpg)
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Here's a view of everything all together in a "dry fit" to see how it looks before welding.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0279_zpscc943b37.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0280_zps5e6c7381.jpg)
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And, finally, here's what it looks like after the threaded bung has been welded.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0290_zps868a9f6a.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0292_zpsc9b57f9a.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0295_zpsdf0ffbfb.jpg)
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Very nice!
I hate it when I find a project like this and it isn't finished yet so I can't read all of it....:P.
Anyway I wonder how different a bandit 400 with injection will ride compared to a stock one!
Good work :bigok:
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Today I was able to finish prepping the frame and suspension swingarm for powder coating. I had to press the bearings out of the swingarm and I had to cut the center stand brackets off of the frame.
Here's the frame all de-greased and clean. Goodbye scratched up pinkish-red, hello flat-black powdercoat.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0302_zps63c99e23.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0297_zpsf87a6419.jpg)
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Here's the bottom of the frame where the center stand brackets used to be.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0330_zps1143b8c4.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0331_zpsa7bec9e8.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0336_zps8454cfa3.jpg)
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These brackets had to go to make room for the body of the wideband oxygen sensor which will protrude from the header collector and go directly through the space that the center stand brackets used to occupy.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0325_zpsc994c6a4.jpg)
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I'm going to use a Honda TRX-500 Rancher (ATV) fuel pump. It's a good all-in-one solution for a do-it-yourself fuel injection project.
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The only drawback to the TRX pump is that it's a bit large, which is why I'm going to relocate the battery to the bike's tail (under a solo cowl). Here's a picture with a soda can to give an idea of the pump's size.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0318_zpsf5ef683c.jpg)
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The TRX pump acts like an in-tank pump. The large aluminum housing fills up with fuel, acting as a "swirl pot" to prevent fuel starvation. So the actual pump, which is pretty small when compared to the overall size of the pump's housing, is fully submerged in fuel just like a modern in-tank pump.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0316_zpsef5e3b00.jpg)
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Also inside the housing is a standard "sock" type fuel filter and a 50psi regulator. This combination of features is what makes this pump such a neat overall package. During operation the pump constantly feeds itself from the fuel tank and constantly returns the excess fuel (the bleed-off from the fuel pump's regulator) back to the fuel tank.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0323_zps16523f26.jpg)
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The frame and swingarm came back from the powdercoater yesterday. I opted for a low-gloss black powdercoat rather than a full flat-black so it does have a bit of "gleam" to it when light hits it, but it isn't too shiny.
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Here's the before once again...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0302_zps63c99e23.jpg)
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Besides being very happy with the color change I'm also glad to see all of the many paint scrapes and smaller dings and lightly rusted areas gone and the frame protected from future rust issues.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0352_zpsc10cee35.jpg)
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I'm not going for anything like "spotless perfection" in the cosmetic end of this project. In the case of the frame I didn't bother to have a few of its larger dents fixed.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0350_zps35f0e444.jpg)
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The swingarm... before:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0312_zps272d1e78.jpg)
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And after:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0353_zps91d3dc06.jpg)
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Another small but important item also came in yesterday, the Throttle Position Sensor (normally referred to as the "TPS" in the Do-It-Yourself fuel injection world, but this abbreviation always reminds me of the movie "Office Space" with the TPS Report coversheet thing).
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This TPS comes from an '03-'04 Triumph Daytona 600. The TPS is the part on the left-hand side of the picture. The connector on the right-hand side was cut from the '09-'11 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R Wiring Harness that I bought for this project. In addition to this TPS connector the ZX-6R wiring harness has also provided 4 injector connectors and 1 fuel pump connector.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0357_zpsab0fefef.jpg)
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I really, really don't enjoy working on motorcycle forks because there's no way to do it without making a big, oily mess of myself and the garage.
So I put off refurbishing the Bandit's front suspension. After I disassembled the bike back in November I just put the forks in the corner of the garage and ignored them. This approach worked for a while but eventually the fork had to be dealt with so today I decided to go ahead with the work.
As I've mentioned before, I don't know much about my Bandit's history. After disassembling the forks and getting a good look at the parts and the state of the oil I'm pretty sure that they haven't been serviced in quite some time. The fork oil was a very thick, sludgy muck. Both of the dust seals had failed (the rubber coating had split and rust was erupting through from the metal insides), the surfaces of the low-friction bushings are mostly worn through and both of the metal "Stopper Rings" where rusted.
After making a huge oily mess of the garage during disassembly I finally managed to end up with a nice bunch of clean parts to evaluate. Here they are in no particular order...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0360_zps95c4f004.jpg)
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Any of you who have disassembled the Bandit's forks will already know which step of the process is the most difficult: Removing the Damper Rods, which requires a "Suzuki special tool" (essentially a 28.5mm hex-head) and a very long T-handle driver to reach all the way down into the fork leg to engage the top of the Damper Rod. Instead of buying a "Suzuki special tool" I went to Ace Hardware and bought a 3/4" bolt nut (which just happens to have a 28.3mm outer diameter which is a perfect fit for the Suzuki Damper Rods) and I mounted this nut on a 1/2" bolt to make a tool out of it.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0368_zpscfff62b9.jpg)
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The smaller nuts hold the larger 3/4" bolt nut stationary and allow it to be engaged by a 3/4" ratchet driver so it can hold the top of the Damper Rod while you loosen the Allen bolt in the bottom of the fork leg.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0369_zpsb890d5a0.jpg)
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Here's a picture of all the bits and pieces lined up together. This is to show how the ratchet driver with extensions reaches down into the fork leg to engage and hold the top of the Damper Rod while the allen wrench is used to loosen the bolt that holds the Damper Rod to the bottom of the fork leg.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0371_zps564dae69.jpg)
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All of this disassembly and cleaning is in preparation for an upgrade to the forks. I'm going to install Gold Valve Cartridge Emulators along with .85 kg/mm springs and 15w fork oil. The Gold Valve Emulators are a way of upgrading old-school Damper Rod forks so they behave like modern Cartridge-style forks.
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Nice! I love the custom tool, and will be ripping of your patent soon. My forks are long overdue for this treatment, with one bad oil seal and probably quite worn bearing surfaces (as evidenced by the discoloration on the upper leg). Keep us posted!
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Nice! I love the custom tool, and will be ripping of your patent soon. My forks are long overdue for this treatment, with one bad oil seal and probably quite worn bearing surfaces (as evidenced by the discoloration on the upper leg). Keep us posted!
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Well, to give credit where it is due I have to show you this web-page from over on the advrider.com forum: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415263&page=7 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415263&page=7)
This is where I got the how-to information from, although I would warn you that our Bandit front fork Damper Rod Tube needs a 28.5mm (outer diameter, across the flats measurement) hex head not the 30mm size that the advrider.com guy used for his front fork. Other than that one little difference all of his information applies to working on a Bandit front suspension.
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Greg, as nifty as that tool is you can use even a 3/8" electric impact while the springs are in to loosen the bolts: no wrestling. Little late now but thought I would put it out there.
Installation is reverse of removal. And if you already have the springs out and you have impact: use a wooden broomhandle. Works just as well.
Also, poor man's .90kg springs: cut off the tighter portion of the progressive coils, also known as the NC Rick mod. Add PVC spacers for preload as necessary. Try this before dumping $200 into springs since you'll be shit-canning your old springs anyway.
When you install your gold valves: do not hog out the holes to their suggested numbers, instead go to 1/2" (I think they want 3/8, it's been a LONG time since I did this.) and open up all the holes, not just the bottom and don't drill any additional. It completely eliminates the circuit at all oil heights forcing the DR to give all the work to the gold valves. I did not drill any additional holes since I hogged out the others.
I did this because I was afraid of weakening the DR even further with the hole size they suggested. This worked just fine.
This is my setup and how I do forks.
-Randy
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Now we come to the point where some metal gets cut...
This is the process of turning the Bandit's Carbs into Fuel Injection Throttle Bodies.
These are pictures of the machine work to allow the Ninja ZX-6R secondary injector array to be mounted onto the bottom of the Bandit's BST-32 carbs. I removed the carb's float bowls and had a local machine shop do some light work. Now the carbs have cutouts to accept the Ninja injector array.
First, here's what the Ninja ZX-6R secondary injector (airbox mounted) array looks like...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0377_zps1da0a48c.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0378_zps6dc1b1aa.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0379_zps654181a3.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0380_zpsb9e70346.jpg)
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Here's what the carbs look like after machining...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0382_zpsab82c145.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0390_zps1082fdf2.jpg)
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Here's a closeup shot of one of the carbs. The gray stuff you can see in the picture is JB Weld that I used to plug the unneeded passages in the carbs. There are a lot of passages in these carbs and I don't need any of them.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/53ce54a5-20ca-4da9-871c-52f9281d46da_zps052cf412.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0385_zps1c491b4d.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0386_zps2d7b56b1.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0388_zps79f80746.jpg)
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And here's what the carbs and injector array look like when they're mated together (remember that the injectors are mounted to the bottoms of the carbs where the float bowls used to be).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0398_zpsd6f04d84.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0399_zps8fdc3f9f.jpg)
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In this picture you can see the injector nozzles pointing up through the bottoms of the carb's bores. I'm pretty pleased with the location and angle of the injectors.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0401_zps7a4256fc.jpg)
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I know it looks a bit scraped up around the injector nozzle holes. The Dremel isn't easy to use on them, but I needed to open the sides of these holes to accommodate the injector spray pattern. At that angle the Dremel bit tends to jump around in the hole so it ended up a little less than pretty, but the job is done.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/e2fb4eee-d8e0-44d5-a3d0-31f6b69bcf5e_zps9852a9f8.jpg)
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I haven't finished machining the clamps that will secure the array to the carbs, but I think the whole assembly will take up the exact same space as the original carbs did.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0406_zps782ff87f.jpg)
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Greg, as nifty as that tool is you can use even a 3/8" electric impact while the springs are in to loosen the bolts: no wrestling. Little late now but thought I would put it out there.
Installation is reverse of removal. And if you already have the springs out and you have impact: use a wooden broomhandle. Works just as well.
Also, poor man's .90kg springs: cut off the tighter portion of the progressive coils, also known as the NC Rick mod. Add PVC spacers for preload as necessary. Try this before dumping $200 into springs since you'll be shit-canning your old springs anyway.
When you install your gold valves: do not hog out the holes to their suggested numbers, instead go to 1/2" (I think they want 3/8, it's been a LONG time since I did this.) and open up all the holes, not just the bottom and don't drill any additional. It completely eliminates the circuit at all oil heights forcing the DR to give all the work to the gold valves. I did not drill any additional holes since I hogged out the others.
I did this because I was afraid of weakening the DR even further with the hole size they suggested. This worked just fine.
This is my setup and how I do forks.
-Randy
Yeah, my Ace Hardware tool is cute. I don't have an impact driver (either electric or air powered) so this will have to do.
I did the Race Tech Gold Valve Emulator modification on a set of Kawasaki EX-250 forks about 7 years ago. I can't remember the specifics of things like the holes in the Damper Rods but I got very good results, performance/handling, from the modification. I do think I remember being concerned about the size of the holes I had to drill in the Damper Rods.
For the Kawasaki EX-250 I put in .70 kg/mm Sonic Springs. The Bandit 400 is a bit heavier than the EX-250 so I'm going with .85 kg/mm Race Tech springs on it.
As to the price of new springs, I don't mind spending the money on the Bandit. The way I see the Bandit is this: If there was a brand new Suzuki 4-cylinder 400cc sport bike sitting on the showroom floor in a dealership today, I would buy it. No question. And it would probably cost close to $10,000. But there's no such thing in the U.S. so I'm left with no choice but to reach back in history to get what I want. In the end this Bandit, even with all the things I'm doing to it, will be much cheaper than purchasing a brand new 4-cylinder 400cc sport bike (if such a thing existed in the U.S.).
I do have to admit that I really enjoy tinkering with machinery, so having to refurbish and modify an older motorcycle is fine with me.
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Fair enough Greg! If it's your hobby, I can certainly understand.
I'm too practical and frugal though, I just like to expend all options before I expend more money. The springs cost me nothing to try and they endt up staying.
My 3/8" cordless impact has been an invaluable tool for me in and out of the garage (drywall screws are no longer a stripping proposition). One of those "how did I get along without this thing?" sort of tools.
I'm just curious on how you're going to seal all the passages in the carb with the bowl area open. I know unless you run a speed density setup, air leaks will reak havoc on setting up correct a/f ratios on FI.
-Randy
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I'm just curious on how you're going to seal all the passages in the carb with the bowl area open. I know unless you run a speed density setup, air leaks will reak havoc on setting up correct a/f ratios on FI.
-Randy
One of the Carb's passages (I think it was the idle jet orifice) was removed completely in the process of milling and drilling the new passage for the injector nozzles.
The other passages are now permanently plugged with JB Weld.
The largest passage in the carb's casting was the hole that the emulsion tube occupied just underneath the carb's slide carriers. That passage is now filled, top to bottom, with JB Weld. The three tiny little passaged that are located just below the carb's butterfly are also plugged by JB Weld.
Here's the closeup picture of the carb's bottom, showing the various areas filled up with JB Weld.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/53ce54a5-20ca-4da9-871c-52f9281d46da_zps052cf412.jpg)
I've still got more JB Weld work to do on the carb's Choke plumbing. I'm going to preserve both of the brass tubes that lead into the Choke. One is the tube that sticks up through the carb's plastic diaphragm/slide cover, the one that is normally capped off and only used for balancing the carbs. The other tube is the fuel feed tube that draws fuel up from the float bowl to the Choke.
I'm going to use one tube as the connection for a tube to the input for the fuel injection system's Manifold Absolute Pressure sensors and the other tube will be connected to the fuel injection system's Fast Idle Air valve.
I am planning to run my fuel injected Bandit in a speed density mode.
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Yesterday the mail brought something I should have purchased a long time ago...
A set of Hozan Japanese Industrial Standard screwdrivers.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0408_zps50114652.jpg)
Up until now I've always used Drywall driver bits from Home Depot to work on JIS screws. I learned a while back that the profile of a drywall driver bit is essentially the same as a Japanese Industrial Standard screwdriver which prevents the dreaded "cam out" that regularly occurs when you try to use a Phillips type screwdriver on a JIS screw.
But it always felt a bit ghetto to use drywall bits on a Keihin or Mikuni carb.
(The important difference between a Phillips screwdriver and a JIS screwdriver is that the Phillips is actually designed to "cam out" of a screw that won't turn. Thats why the junctions between the blades of a Phillips screwdriver are rounded, it makes the tool cam out under very high loads.)
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Ye I don't understand why anyone decided using Philips screws is the way to go.
I guess they are fine for the first 3 years but after 20 years they are so stuck the thread will be destroyed 1st try.
I don't understand why they don't use hex.. which are nearly impossible to destroy and allow you to apply much more force because of leverage....
I really like working on my b400 ..but the absolute worst part is when you've collected all the parts you need, you finally have the time to do it, the weather is nice etc... only to be completely stuck after 5min because a goddamn philips screw on the floatbowl carb is completely stuck. :banghead: :annoy:
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The fasteners are fine if you have the correct tool: JIS is indicated by the little dot in the diagonal of the cross. It makes a HUGE difference.
Hex is fine but not perfect. Most people overtorque anyway and these can make that even worse. Not saying that you should use a torque wrench for everything but it helps to have a referenced hand for finer work.
Greg, I've used JB a ton in the past but the only thing that has me questioning are the heating and cooling cycles and the dissimilar materials. I'd just be concerned with it eventually cracking out because it doesn't move and flex with the aluminum carb bodies. Granted, they're fairly insulated from heat but they do bake over the motor/trans.
I know there are flexible epoxies that are available with bits of aluminum to allow expansion and contraction and JB not biting has been found often in certain applications I've experienced. Vibration is also another concern.
That being said, I have used it to patch a holed engine cover and it did hold for a little while in that environment but did eventually leak.
-Randy
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Greg, I've used JB a ton in the past but the only thing that has me questioning are the heating and cooling cycles and the dissimilar materials. I'd just be concerned with it eventually cracking out because it doesn't move and flex with the aluminum carb bodies. Granted, they're fairly insulated from heat but they do bake over the motor/trans.
I know there are flexible epoxies that are available with bits of aluminum to allow expansion and contraction and JB not biting has been found often in certain applications I've experienced. Vibration is also another concern.
That being said, I have used it to patch a holed engine cover and it did hold for a little while in that environment but did eventually leak.
-Randy
Yeah, I understand concerns about the long-term viability of JB Weld. But I wouldn't have filled in the passages on the Bandit with it if I didn't have some positive history with the product.
Seven years ago I filled in a couple of passages in the throttle body of my Kawasaki EX-250 fuel injection project bike. In the years since doing that fill-in job I've been watching it closely to see if it was coming apart, separating from the throttle body casting or just generally degrading in any way. To date there has been no change in the JB Weld in the EX-250's throttle body. In fact, the JB Weld is still smooth and glossy looking on its surface just the same as it was from day-one.
I have the camera in the garage this morning so here's a few pictures of the EX-250...
This first picture is of the left-hand side of the bike, looking up into the area occupied by the bike's throttle body.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0417_zpsdb554cee.jpg)
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Now, zooming in to focus on the throttle body itself...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0419_zps2bfea44a.jpg)
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And now even closer to focus on one of the JB Weld spots. In this spot I used JB Weld to plug the hole in the throttle body that was left when I removed the secondary butterfly assembly (the secondary butterfly assembly was electrically servo-controlled by the ECU of the bike that I got the throttle body from and I had no way of using it so I removed it and plugged the holes with JB Weld).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0422_zps4a815baa.jpg)
This spot of JB Weld was lightly sanded to level it out with the metal of the throttle body casting after it dried so it doesn't have the shiny appearance that other spots on the throttle body have, but it's the one that is easy to photograph.
The point of all this: This is 7-year old JB Weld and it looks just like it did the day I installed it.
Also in that same project (the Kawasaki EX-250) I used JB Weld to fill in the vacuum passage on the petcock. This fill-in job is also looking great after seven years.
It may be that the bike's petcock and throttle body don't get enough of the engine's heat to cause anything like expansion problems.
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Got back into the garage yesterday. I'm mostly finished with the task of converting the Bandit's bank of Mikuni carbs into a bank of fuel injection throttle bodies...
Here's a run of pics that show all the parts being assembled. So, here are all the parts...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0425_zps2a47286c.jpg)
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First the neoprene rubber washers go into the carbs. These washers will take the hold-down force that will be applied by the braces and they will prevent any vacuum leaks from occurring at the injector array.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0426_zps9f7e99b2.jpg)
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Then the Keihin injector array goes in on top of the neoprene rubber washers.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0427_zps7531052f.jpg)
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Then the Keihin injectors are plugged into their individual holders.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0429_zps5d46bc60.jpg)
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Now the bracing starts to go onto the carbs. At the bottom-rear (airbox side) of the carbs I used a thick piece of aluminum stock because it is screwed onto the screw-holes where the float-bowls used to attach and these screw-holes are at a different elevation when compared to the front-bottom (engine side) of the carb assembly.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0431_zps41720d38.jpg)
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Now the short pieces of 90 degree aluminum go into the machined-out valley of the carb bottom. These three pieces will apply a gentle and even pressure across the injector array when the top-brace pieces are added.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0432_zpsea33acc6.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0432_zpsd49f7fef.jpg)
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Now the top-braces are added. The end-pieces are made of 90 degree aluminum and they stick up about an inch at each end of the carb assembly. The end-piece on the far right-hand end (when mounted on the bike) will hold the bracket for the throttle position sensor (to be added later).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0436_zps881ee977.jpg)
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Now all of the screws are added.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0438_zps08d3c860.jpg)
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And finally, the fuel supply rail is added.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0440_zps7ba883a2.jpg)
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There's more work to do: I've got to transform the carb's choke circuit into a Fast Idle air circuit (an automatic, ECU-controlled cold start-up air source), the throttle position sensor has to be mounted to the end of the shaft of the right-hand carb's butterfly and I have to add ports for the four Manifold Absolute Pressure sensors.
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... and a few more random views of the work.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0447_zpsa1b8e3f6.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0448_zpsfb4c0ef9.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0445_zps47eca9ae.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0444_zps586ab7a5.jpg)
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Back in the garage for a few hours today.
In November when I was disassembling the Bandit I discovered that the headlight bucket was a horribly rusted mess. I had two choices: 1. get it re-chromed or 2. paint it in some other color. This got me started looking at other people's Bandits and lots of other motorcycles in general, trying to decide on an overall color scheme for my project.
That's when I noticed that the headlight bucket is the only chromed piece on the entire bike, that is, if you don't count the handlebars (and I don't because I'm replacing those with handlebars that are not chromed). After I noticed this situation I couldn't stop noticing it and realized that I really didn't like it.
One thing leads to another and when I made the decision to powder-coat the frame and swingarm in black it seemed like a good idea to do the headlight bucket as well. Then I did a Photoshop mockup of my paint scheme and felt that the color of the front fork legs should also match the frame and swingarm.
So, here's the result of that thought process...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0449_zps5e71417e.jpg)
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On my GSF400 the upper part of the front fork is also chrome, as well as the gauges,
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Yeah, that's right. I guess my brain just automatically accepts that the sliding-surface portion of the forks will be chrome in color so I hardly notice them, because they're always that color on older bikes (and, yes, I know they're not always chrome colored on the newer bikes).
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As I've mentioned already in this thread I don't know much about the history of my Bandit project bike. But if the milage shown on the odometer is correct the bike must have spent a lot of its 22 years just sitting somewhere. Recently I disassembled the front suspension and I think I've found evidence that my Bandit did indeed sit around a lot (possibly outside) during its life. Whether this was one single extended period of time I can't guess but here's what I've discovered...
Let's start by looking at the fork weather seals. They looked pretty old and dry when I first saw the bike but I really couldn't tell if they'd already failed (if they were actually letting in water and dirt) from just an outside view, but they sure didn't look good...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0467_zps4fbd7005.jpg)
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But when I got them off of the forks it was obvious that they were crap. Here's a view of the bottom of the seals...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0466_zps14ffe68b.jpg)
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Obviously both of them had been allowed to go well past the point where they should have been replaced.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0465_zpsdea13a8c.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0471_zps691a73a8.jpg)
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Further evidence that a good bit of water had gotten past these failed weather seals wasn't hard to find. Here are the fork's oil seal retaining clips which sit just beneath the fork seals. I don't know how well the picture shows it but they are pretty rusted.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0468_zpsffb58f25.jpg)
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But here's the real evidence. When I got the forks completely disassembled I saw an odd-looking area of discoloration on the bottom of the chromed sliding surface.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0453_zps32a6097d.jpg)
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The interesting thing to note is that the top of the line of discoloration is angled slightly. After a few minutes I realized that the angle of the discoloration matched the fork rake angle. This meant that whatever had caused the discoloration was liquid and that it was mildly corrosive and that this liquid was heavier than the fork oil (because it obviously went to the bottom of the fork). Of course, water meets all of these requirements.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0455_zps85435d0e.jpg)
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If you look closely at the discolored area on each fork leg you'll see that there are at least two very distinct areas (lines) on them. This means that there were at least two (pretty long) periods of time during which the water level in the fork legs didn't change at all. So these lines might indicate long periods of time when the bike might have been ridden very little or even stored away completely.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0456_zps282b2276.jpg)
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Wow! That's pretty interesting to see. Makes me worry about my squishy forks...
A
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I had three reasons to completely disassemble the Bandit's forks.
The first reason was to replace the weather seals and the fork oil, which is simply giving the bike some of the regular maintenance that it obviously hadn't been getting during at least the last few years of its life.
The second reason to disassemble the forks, closely related to the first reason, was to diagnose the level of wear on the fork's low-friction inserts. I found that both sets of low-friction inserts were heavily worn. The top set was very eroded, probably by the grit and dust that was allow in by the failed weather seals. And the wear that the bottom set of low-friction inserts had suffered was almost certainly due to the water that had pooled in the bottom of the forks which would wash the oil off of the low-friction inserts and the inner walls of the fork legs, increasing the friction during fork motion.
The third reason to disassemble the forks was that I wanted to find out if they had been modified at all. In the end it turned out that they were completely stock. I've decided to modify them with Race Tech Gold Valve Emulators.
Here are the damper rods. I didn't take pictures of them before I began the Race Tech modification. In their original configuration they only had 4 holes in each damper rod and the holes were 1/4 inch in diameter.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0458_zps75566a6a.jpg)
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For the Race Tech modification you have to add another set of holes, for a total of 6 holes in each damper rod. All of these holes have to be 5/16 inches in diameter. These changes take away the damper rod's ability to affect the movement of oil through the forks. The damper rods will be re-installed in the forks because they are a structural part of the mechanism but they no longer have a job to do.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0460_zps2cefdf1c.jpg)
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When I re-assemble the forks I'll be including the Gold Valve Emulators. They are placed on top of the damper rods and are held in place by the fork springs.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0462_zpsf763603d.jpg)
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I'll be replacing the fork oil with 15 weight oil which is the correct oil for the valving in the Gold Valve Emulators. I'm also replacing the Bandit's original springs with Race Tech springs that are straight-springrate wound for .85 kg/mm. This springrate was determined by Race Tech's calculator which takes into account the motorcycle's weight, the rider's weight and the way the motorcycle is to be used (and I'm a relatively conservative "sport touring" guy, no track days for me... thanks).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0461_zps330cd51b.jpg)
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Back in the garage this week with a good amount of time on my hands so I'm hoping to make some real progress on the project.
Today I finished up the forks. New oil seals, dust seals, low-friction inserts, 15 weight oil, Race Tech .85kg/mm springs, Race Tech Gold Valve Emulators. Plus the black powdercoating of the fork legs and the fork brace.
Glad that's over...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0475_zpsd0f8fddf.jpg)
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I found that I did have a picture that showed the damper rods in their original state, with only 4 holes in each one, all 1/4 inch in diameter. This is a blow-up from a picture that showed all of the fork parts.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/87ccbd70-0184-44a3-b9b1-14564e42edd4_zpscf47af9e.jpg)
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And here's what the damper rods look like after being modified. Two extra holes added to each and all of the holes 5/16 inch in diameter.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0458_zps75566a6a.jpg)
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So. Will you be selling solo cowls? :bandit: :bandit:
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In the garage today with a long "to do" list: finishing up the Throttle Position Sensor mount, painting a few parts for the carbs, doing further modification to the plumbing of the carb's Choke mechanism, putting fork oil into the forks, removing the bearings from the wheels and, finally, getting the old tires replaced...
Took some pictures of the "before and after" from getting the tires replaced. I ordered the tires a few months back but just got around to having them mounted.
Here are the tires that were on the bike when I bought it in October. If these two words don't make you feel apprehensive then I'd suggest that you only ride on warm, dry days on very well-paved and clean roads. They scare the hell out of me.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0480_zps125eddb5.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0482_zps28885802.jpg)
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I mean, just look at this thing... are we on a farm or what?
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0483_zpsb5d47ed2.jpg)
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Out with the old...
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0485_zps914d4aeb.jpg)
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... and in with the new (Michelin Pilot Road 3 in the OEM size).
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0487_zpse0409b07.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0488_zps6f391e8e.jpg)
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The magic word.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0489_zpsad687fc5.jpg)
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This item might not seem like a big deal, but in the overall fuel injection conversion it's a real milestone. Today I finished installing the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) on the carbs.
To make this happen I had to completely disassemble the number 4 carb (the furthest right-hand carb). The pivot shaft of the number 4 carb (the part that holds the throttle plate) had to be sent out to a machine shop to have a short extension added to it. This extension was countersunk and silver brazed to the carb's pivot shaft. When I got it back home I had to machine the extension so it would fit into the Throttle Position Sensor.
The Throttle Position Sensor is a very important part of a fuel injection system and I was pretty nervous about getting it set up perfectly. It will be a while before I get a chance to hook it up to the Microsquirt ECU for a power test and operational calibration, but it seems to work smoothly without any slop in the interface between the extension and the sensor.
Here's a closeup shot of the TPS install. This is the end of the number 4 carb.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0491_zps0277d370.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0496_zps68fa2272.jpg)
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And here's what the carbs look like now that they're completely assembled. Except that these aren't carbs any more... now they are fuel injection throttle bodies.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0492_zpsc1b4014f.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0493_zps03dee5ba.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0497_zps90e07119.jpg)
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Now that the front suspension is sorted it's time to get the rear end into good shape.
I've already pulled out the 4 original bearings from the swingarm pivots. I replaced them with new.
I found the swingarm bearings to be dry and worn, but surprisingly the cushion lever bearings were well greased and did not appear to be worn beyond a normal amount. So I'm not going to replace them, just clean out the old grease and re-pack them with fresh.
Once again I have to simply say that I don't know much about this bike's history. Maybe somebody serviced the cushion lever but not the swingarm. Who knows?
When I'm ready to reassemble the rear suspension the old KYB rear shock will not be participating. In its place will be a nice new Hagon shock.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0499_zps1e9afe06.jpg)
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I struggle with the photography... just posting this picture to see which looks better on a couple of different computers/tablets.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0507_zps6551c9f5.jpg)
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Cracking updates Greg :clap:
Your attention to detail is exceptional and having the balls to modify a bank of carbs and have it look pretty much factory is nothing short of inspiring.
Should handle a helluva lot better with some decent tyres on
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Cracking updates Greg.
Your attention to detail is exceptional and having the balls to modify a bank of carbs and have it look pretty much factory is nothing short of inspiring.
Should handle a helluva lot better with some decent tyres on
Thanks man, I'm not really breaking any new ground with this project. Other people have already done this sort of thing.
I do have a bit of over-the-top attention to detail in my nature... it helps with things like this project and writing and building furniture and aviation, but it doesn't play too well in relationships. The old joke goes like this: "What do pilots use for birth control? Their personalities."
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New hagon shock for a GSF400..haha!
You're really going all-in.
:bigok:
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Hello Greg,
I have one question for you regarding the fuel pump you've selected to go with. How is this supposed to be mounted? horizontally or vertically or it does not matter?
Thanks
Themis
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The Honda TRX-500 fuel pump has to be mounted vertically, or to put it another way: with all of its hose connections pointed straight upward.
It's been a while since I took one of these TRX pumps apart (6 years ago when I put one on my EX-250 project) but if I remember correctly the intake for the pump is located at the very bottom of the aluminum housing which makes sense because it helps to avoid air bubbles and air pockets so the pump doesn't cavitate.
Also, the hose connection that is used to return the pump's excess output to the bike's fuel tank is just an opening in the plastic top of the pump housing so it depends on the pump being vertical to evacuate any air that might get into the housing.
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Finally... back in the garage after a half-month of working too hard at the "job".
Today I pressed the new bearings into the wheels and the sprocket carrier.
I also installed the new final drive ratio I've decided to try: 15 tooth front sprocket and 47 tooth rear sprocket. This lowers my Bandit's final drive ratio to 3.13, just a little bit lower than the 14/46 ratio of 3.29 that it came with from the factory. The few times I road my Bandit before I started the project work the bike felt like it would be better with just a bit lower highway RPMs.
The new sprockets I'm using are 520 chain size and I'll be using an EK x-ring 520 chain on the bike.
The last thing I did was "Shim the Cush Drive" in the bike's sprocket carrier. This easy little modification is a must-do on my other bike, the Kawasaki EX-250.
The EX-250's cush drive is known to be a problem item because it seems that Kawasaki used pretty cheap rubber in it. The rubber that Kawasaki used ages pretty quickly and shrinks down in size quite a bit. Because of this shrinkage in the interface between the EX-250's sprocket carrier and its rear wheel a lot of "lash" develops in the bike's final drive and this lash cannot be removed by anything other than shimming up the cush drive. What makes the Kawasaki's situation even worse is the fact that if you buy "new" rubber pieces for the EX-250's cush drive they come to you already shrunken up and you still have to shim the drive to eliminate the lash.
The Bandit's cush drive definitely seems to be a higher-quality item when compared with my Kawasaki. My Bandit is 22 years old and the rubber that Suzuki used in its cush drive looks to be in much better shape than the rubber in my 9 year old EX-250's cush drive.
But I just couldn't bring myself to simply put it all back together without taking the time to shim it anyway because even high quality rubber ages over time and I could actually feel a bit of play in the Bandit's sprocket carrier when I checked it by hand.
Here's the rear wheel before the new bearings were pressed in, the sprocket carrier (also just prior to installing its new bearing) with its new 47 tooth sprocket and the 5 rubber interface pieces of the cush drive.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0515_zpsdd4c743b.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0517_zps4985b068.jpg)
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Here's a "before shimming" picture and you can see that the fit of the rubber pieces is still pretty good after 22 years.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0518_zpsf748dc49.jpg)
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But I'm gonna shim it anyway. I'm using plastic pieces cut from a WalMart roll-up cutting board.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0519_zps340f4c1a.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0520_zps29e1a8c2.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0521_zps63485d0c.jpg)
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Done.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0522_zpseed550cf.jpg)
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Slowly slogging toward the goal...
Here's a small piece of the overall project that is absolutely key to the fuel injection system.
This is a 1992 Bandit 400 signal generator wheel.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0230_zpsd9e179f3.jpg)
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It needs to be modified so that it will send a signal that the Microsquirt ECU can interpret. This will be the basis for timing both ignition and fuel injection.
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The first step in the modification is to cut the long tooth off of the wheel. This gives the signal wheel a 6-1 tooth configuration. In the do-it-yourself Microsquirt fuel injection world this is called a "six minus one" signal wheel.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0534_zpsf2d55d87.jpg)
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The problem with cutting a tooth off of the signal wheel is that this ruins the balance. This wheel has to be able to rotate at nearly 14,000 rpm with perfect balance. Removal of the tooth took 10 grams off that side of the wheel (the removed piece weighs 8 grams and the cut turned 2 grams of the metal into dust).
Now I've got to rebalance the wheel so it won't vibrate and shake. This could possibly damage the engine, make it wear prematurely or make it vibrate so much that it totally sucks to ride the motorcycle. An easy first step toward rebalancing it is to simply weld the removed piece back into the wheel.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0540_zps6af79fc5.jpg)
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The wheel started out at 815 grams before the tooth was cut off. Now, after welding the tooth back onto the wheel, the weight is 814 grams. That's close if we're only considering the static weight of the item, but I also have to deal with the fact that I've removed weight from the far edge of the wheel and moved it nearer to the middle of the wheel. The dynamic, spinning nature of the item means that weight near the perimeter has a much greater effect on its balance than weight that is nearer to the center.
So I had an aerospace engineer at one of America's premier aerospace firms (my younger brother) do an analysis of the wheel for me. A lot of nerd-math later, he told me that I needed to remove exactly 6.8 grams of metal from an area on the opposite side of the wheel with the cuts centered over a distance of 32mm from the center of the wheel's rotation.
Here's the finished product, weighing in at just a tick over 807 grams. Now it's ready to go back into the engine.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0548_zpsdeaf9640.jpg)
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I've finally arrived at a point where I can begin reassembling the Bandit.
After an entire winter spent working on little bits and pieces it's really nice to see it start looking like a motorcycle again.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0552_zps47a97267.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0558_zps7f376116.jpg)
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Another thing I did today was remove the Choke lever and the choke cable.
This was something I enjoyed doing on my first fuel injection project bike (Kawasaki EX-250). The Microsquirt fuel injection ECU will be taking care of cold start-up issues from now on so I can toss out the old handlebar lever and cable.
On cold start-up the Microsquirt will automatically open up the Fast Idle air valve which mimics the airflow increase the manual choke lever provided. The ECU will also increase the fueling to an amount that is correct for the current temperature. As the engine temperature increases during the first few minutes of operation the Microquirt slowly tapers down the amount of additional cold-start fueling. Later in the warm-up, when the engine temperature reaches a pre-determined level, the Microsquirt will close Fast Idle air valve and continue reducing the extra fueling until the engine reaches normal operating temperature. At that point the Microsquirt reverts to its normal fueling program.
So, goodbye to the choke lever and cable.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0562_zpsff6970c3.jpg)
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Looks great Greg
There's something deeply satisfying about building up a bike from fresh, clean parts
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A bit of a vent here...
This Bandit 400 is my first motorcycle refurbishment project and I've discovered that the most irritating part of the whole effort is the absolutely filthy condition of it.
My project Bandit is 22 years old and every single part of this bike is covered with grease and grime. There's no way to work on anything without having to clean/wash/degrease it first. If I don't take the time to do this I end up covered in filth up to my elbows.
Right now the bike's entire wiring harness is lying in a bathtub with Simple Green cleaner sprayed on it. There was no way around it, the wiring harness was a horrifying, greasy, grimy mess and had to be washed.
The "silver lining" of my little storm-cloud is that I'm finally running out of things to clean and I'm moving into the re-building phase.
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:rofl:
yep. My bandit is that way too. I commute daily, in all weather. it's just filthy and there's nothing I can really do about it. I do relish the opportunity to work on it so I can clean that small bit, but it's a hopeless battle. Nothing short of weekly detailing will keep up and I just don't have the time. So... if you ever end up working on *my* bike, I apologize in advance.
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Tell me about it...
Before and after (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22072961/MF/2013-04-14%2012.54.34.jpg)
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Making progress...
I'm working on reassembly right now. Just some basic stuff to start, then I'll begin making the changes necessary for the fuel injection system.
So far today I've begun to re-install the Bandit's original wiring harness. I need to get it back in the bike so that I can begin modifying it for the fuel injection system.
The portion of the wiring harness located at the front end of the bike: the controls and headlight wiring, won't be changing so I put it back into the headlight bucket as close as possible to the way that the Bandit Service Manual shows.
Putting the wiring harness back into the headlight bucket might not sound like a big deal but everything about my project Bandit is complicated.
At some point in the past a Prior Owner decided that instead of putting all the wiring back into the headlight bucket he would just wad the whole mess of wiring into a ball with a couple of big zip-ties and jam it between the back of the headlight bucket and the steering tube. What a mess...
It wasn't easy but I believe that I got it all back in the bucket in the original factory configuration. Even after being treated badly by the Prior Owner the various wiring bundles still had hints of their original bends and shapes.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0566_zps776b846c.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0568_zps0f56e1f9.jpg)
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It was a huge relief when the headlight went back in without a struggle. I guess if it fits well I must have gotten it right.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0570_zps184d3fe3.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0571_zps3e5e1e84.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0572_zps78efb1f2.jpg)
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Could u have used a wheel balancing machine to figure out the added weight needed on the signal generator wheel?
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I'm currently working on getting several of the fuel injection system components mounted on the bike and hope to have pictures of the work soon.
I was working on the bracket that will hold the fuel pump which required a lot of test fitting so I was handling the fuel pump a lot. At one point I put the pump down on the garage floor and when I went to pick it up again it reminded me of something I see almost every day.
I think the pump with its brackets looks like my daughter's piggy bank.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0576_zpsbc0f3cd7.jpg).
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0578_zps3fcfea7e.jpg)
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Maybe I've been in the garage a little too long today.
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Working toward a new paint job for the Bandit. It's going to be a "do-it-yourself" deal, done in my own garage with ColorRite products for the color (Suzuki Metallic Sonic Silver) and urethane clearcoat.
I'm trying to "do it right the first time" by researching a lot of how-to information sources and by working hard to get the preparation done correctly.
Here are all the parts to be painted. All the original Suzuki Red paint has been removed from the surfaces that will be visible.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0586_zps6e9c285d.jpg)
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Paint-prep is such drudgery, but every "how-to" resource on painting motorcycles (and cars) says that prep work is the key to a getting a good result.
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Oh noes, you're spraying it silver?
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Don't yuck someone else's yum! :wink:
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It's okay...
I gave the color issue a fair amount of thought during this past winter and finally decided that a Silver Bandit 400 (front fender, fuel tank, side covers and tail fairings) with a black frame, swingarm, fork legs and headlight bucket was right for me.
I've also got a set of high-quality vinyl decals done in Black, so the tank will have "SUZUKI" on it in black and the tail fairing will have "Bandit" in black.
I was heavily influenced by the look of the Silver SV 650 that Suzuki produced in 2003. They (Suzuki) used a Silver that they called "Metallic Sonic Silver" which is the color I'm going to use on my Bandit.
Google-search "2003 SV650 Silver" and have a look.
However... if you simply don't like any bike done in silver paint, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'll admit that I have my own motorcycle color prejudices: I'm completely over RED, never liked any shade of BLUE, I think that a completely BLACK bike is boring, YELLOW doesn't do it for me, GREEN is for Kawasaki, pearlescent colors are for Hayabusas with stretched swingarms, "candy" colors are for Harley Davidsons... and the list goes on.
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Personally, I think this is one of the prettiest color combinations I've seen
http://www.returnofthecaferacers.com/2012/05/hinckley-triumph-milonga-by-cafe-twin.html
Although I think I'd have extended the cream to the frame as well. Hard to say.
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As the project grinds forward...
I'm working hard on placing (hiding) the components of the fuel injection system within the Bandit's frame.
I've got to find places for:
- the Honda TRX-500 Rancher Fuel Pump,
- the Microsquirt ECU,
- the Innovate LC-2 wideband Oxygen sensor controller,
- the new, larger Fusebox (from Eastern Beaver),
- the '08 Yamaha YZF-R1 Regulator/Rectifier,
- several new electrical control relays,
- the Quadspark coil-on-plug ignition module,
- the QuadraMAP manifold absolute pressure sensor array,
- a fuel pump cut-off tip-over sensor
- and a cold start-up air valve.
The first fuel injection system component I've placed is the Fuel Pump. It's the biggest item of all so it needed to be dealt with right away. The fuel pump is mounted in the space that the battery and coolant overflow bottle used to occupy. It just barely fits between the rear end of the airbox and the frame member that used to hold the battery.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0595_zps6ac519d8.jpg)
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In this shot you can see that I've moved the Bandit's starter solenoid. The starter solenoid is now mounted on side of the Fuel Pump (so the solenoid now sits right between the top of the rear shock mount and the rear brake reservoir). This works well for me because the starter is only a few inches away. The empty brackets on either end of the fuel pump bracket will hold a new mounting point for the coolant overflow bottle.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0597_zps0ce3103e.jpg)
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... another view. You can see how close the clearance between the airbox and the fuel pump is. Also, you can see how I mounted the '08 Yamaha YZF-R1 Regulator/Rectifier. The Regulator/Regulator is in just about the same place as the original was in, but because the new Yamaha item is so much bigger I had to reverse the bracket that holds so that it hangs further inboard where there's more room.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0599_zpsa2d1af90.jpg)
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Here's a view of the Bandit's thermostat housing. If you remember from earlier in this thread (page #2), I've modified the Bandit with a small constant-flow radiator-bypass line (like the modern bikes all have now). In this picture you can see the radiator-bypass line leaving the bottom of the thermostat housing.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0601_zpsbebacda1.jpg)
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This picture shows the radiator-bypass leading down from the thermostat housing to a connection in the radiator-to-water pump hose.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0602_zpsc616a73e.jpg)
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Here's a couple pictures of the '05 Honda CBR-600RR Coil-on-Plug sticks. I took the old spark plugs out and replaced them with a fresh set of NGK CR8EKs. Then I installed the coil sticks. You can really see how high above the engine cover these coil sticks stand (you can also see them in the last two pictures above ^^^^).
These Honda coil sticks are the shortest ones I could find. It seems that in spite of their height they're going to fit in just fine. I've done some checking and measuring and is appears they are going to easily clear of all the other engine components, so they may be tall but they're not too tall.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0588_zpsb2474f3d.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0589_zps9ddccc3c.jpg)
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If you look closely you can see that the coil sticks have thick, solid rubber, automotive-style tube seals on them. When I first disassembled the Bandit I noticed that the spark plug cavities in the engine tend to hold water. All of the old spark plugs are rusted/corroded around their tops (where the spark plug socket grabs them). So I wanted to waterproof the new coil sticks as thoroughly as I could. These tube seals also have the advantage of stabilizing the coil sticks, which was something I was a bit worried about because of how high they stand up above the engine cover.
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Making a change up in the cockpit...
When the time comes to start riding the Bandit there will be a lot of tuning to do. So I'm adding an Air/Fuel Ratio gauge to the instrument cluster. The Innovate LC-2 wideband Oxygen sensor controller will continuously send information to the gauge during operation.
On my first motorcycle fuel injection project, a Kawasaki EX-250, I added a digital Air/Fuel Ratio gauge. It's a great source of information about the bike's performance.
For the Bandit an analog Air/Fuel Ratio gauge seemed like the right way to go.
Here are a few pictures of the Bandit with the Air/Fuel Ratio gauge added to the instrument cluster.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0611_zpsd88212a1.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0605_zps14a58568.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0606_zps07a30755.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0609_zpsb7fb25a1.jpg)
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Here's another example of the state of general dilapidation I've been finding in my 1993 Bandit 400 project bike.
And since I'm still pretty new to the Bandit 400 I have to ask, is it normal for the plugs to be as rusted/corroded as these are? It seems that the design of the Bandit's cylinder head traps and holds water in the spark plug wells. Is there no provision for drainage?
My Kawasaki EX-250 has a drain hole in the left-hand side of the cylinder head to drain any water from the spark plug wells.
Today's example of "benign neglect" is the set of spark plugs I just removed from the engine. You can tell just by looking that they are all well outside of the recommended 0.6 to 0.7mm gap. In fact, of the 4 plugs only 1 had a 0.8mm gap and the rest were at least 0.85 to 0.95mm.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0612_zps141cbc15.jpg)
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It's amazing to me that the bike started and ran as well as it did when I bought it. This tells me that when this project is finished and my Bandit is running again I'll be treated to a vastly improved performance "feel".
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The stock plug wires/caps include a rubber seal that should provide some seal to keep the plugs dry, but it's only good against incidental splash. If the bike has sat in the rain (as it appears this one has) then it's easy for water to work past those and collect around the plugs.
There is a channel in the head that drains the plug well out below the exhaust ports. Probably that is clogged, as it's pretty small. This can lead to all sorts of hilarity like -- holy crap my head gasket is leaking coolant!!! The drain is just above the gasket line, so if there's water in there, and it's partially blocked, it will sputter and spit moisture as the engine warms up and boils it off.
A
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The stock plug wires/caps include a rubber seal that should provide some seal to keep the plugs dry, but it's only good against incidental splash. If the bike has sat in the rain (as it appears this one has) then it's easy for water to work past those and collect around the plugs.
There is a channel in the head that drains the plug well out below the exhaust ports. Probably that is clogged, as it's pretty small. This can lead to all sorts of hilarity like -- holy crap my head gasket is leaking coolant!!! The drain is just above the gasket line, so if there's water in there, and it's partially blocked, it will sputter and spit moisture as the engine warms up and boils it off.
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Thanks for that information. I'm going to have a close look at it. I'm guessing that this passageway is clogged on my Bandit.
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Yep mine came out like that Greg.
Although at least all 4 of yours were the same, I had 2 cr9ek's, a cr8e and and cr10e :yikes:
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Oh yeah, and another indication of benign neglect:
The speedometer and tachometer only had 1 working instrument light between them. I discovered this right away on the evening back in October when I bought the bike in Portland, OR and had to ride it 425 miles to Spokane WA in the dark and cold (and some rain).
I was reminded of the old Lucas Electronics motto, "Get home before dark".
So, yesterday, after giving the 1 instrument light bulb that was still operable a proper burial (with full honors to pay tribute to the fact that it was somehow still working after 22 years of hard use), I replaced all 4 of the instrument lights with new bulbs just in case I ever want to ride the Bandit in the dark.
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So I finally got back into the garage yesterday, mainly intending to do some more work on the brackets that will be holding many of the bike's components.
The interesting discovery of the day was the spark plug drain holes. Andrewsw was right, every one of these holes was plugged up solid, so there was absolutely no way for the spark plug wells to drain water.
The surprising part of this mess was why and how the drain holes were plugged:
The holes were all sealed with a cement-like substance made with light tan colored dirt. It appears that my Bandit was left outside a lot during a portion of its life and some sort of small insect decided that the spark plug drain passages would make a nice place to raise a family. It was probably a "mud dauber" type of wasp and that wasp found a nearby source of tan colored dirt that it really liked. The little bug had sealed all four of the drain passages so completely and perfectly flush with the metal of the cylinder head it was hard to even find where they were located.
No wonder the old set of spark plugs looked so horribly rusted and corroded.
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Well, I excavated most of the mud-dauber wasp "cement" out of the sparkplug drain holes. Then I went back at them with some flexible pipe brushes and spray cleaner.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0635_zps8ac10e6e.jpg)
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:thumb:
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I've been pretty quiet lately, not posting anything to this build log, but I've been working on the bike.
The process of deciding how all of the new Fuel Injection system components will fit into the very limited space of the Bandit has taken some time to work out. Obviously I can't hide everything up under the (yet to be built) solo seat cowl, so I've had to put a lot of thought and work into rearranging things.
Here's a pic of the Bandit as it currently stands. I know that I already posted a similar picture a month ago but a lot of work has gone into it since then. The brackets that are holding the various items were difficult and time consuming to get exactly right.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0622_zps1b18e115.jpg)
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Here are several close-up pics that show how I've decided to locate the Fuel Pump (Honda TRX-500 Rancher 4-wheeler), the new Regulator/Rectifier (’07-’08 Yamaha YZF-R1), the Coolant Overflow Bottle and the Starter Solenoid.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0625_zps3c6d464b.jpg)
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In this picture you can see the new mounting position for the Coolant Overflow Bottle. You can also see that I've reduced the length of the Bottle's neck by about an inch. This had to be done for clearance between the seat-bracket (above it) and the arc of the rear tire travel (below and behind it).
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0626_zps05c2a31e.jpg)
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I know it looks like there's a good bit of room between the rear tire/suspension and the Coolant Bottle but I'm going to be re-installing the rear wheel hugger so there's actually much less space than there seems to be...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0632_zpse1e09d61.jpg)
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Here's a couple pictures of the Coolant Overflow Bottle modification. I wanted to keep the original snap-on cap so I cut the bottle's neck in two places and removed a middle piece that was about 1 inch long. Then I used some water-activated epoxy tape to re-attach the top piece.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0621_zps260175dd.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0620_zps7cdde44b.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0618_zps3ed8065d.jpg)
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Here's an overhead picture, looking down on the seat bracket and the rear end of the airbox. On the left-hand side you can see the wiring plugs for the Yamaha YZF-R1 Regulator/Rectifier. In the middle you can see just how close the fuel pump comes to the rear end of the airbox, clearance is just a millimeter or two. And at the right-hand side of the picture is the OEM Bandit starter soleniod, mounted to the side of the Fuel Pump.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0634_zpsb480207a.jpg)
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Here's a picture taken from the left-hand side of the Bandit. This shows how I had to modify the Bandit's original Regulator/Rectifier mounting bracket. The Bandit's OEM R/R unit is much smaller than the Yamaha item which allowed it to fit into the long triangular opening of the frame. The Yamaha R/R was too big to mount in the same space so I had to reverse the mounting bracket to locate it inboard of the frame. There was just enough room next to the fuel pump.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0627_zpsc062b8e3.jpg)
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:thumb:
Nicely packaged Greg, its a pain to find enough space on a bandit 4
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After more than a month I've finally made it back into the garage to get some work done on the Bandit project...
It was time to do some paint work so I built myself a do-it-yourself paint booth in the garage...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0637_zps61c42f04.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0640_zpse67e710a.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0644_zpsb88b1926.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0649_zpsb71816e3.jpg)
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And here are the results of my paint spraying so far...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0670_zpsae1c8f58.jpg)
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The color is Suzuki Metallic Sonic Silver. After the silver was applied everything got a good coating of catalyzed urethane clear-coat (very tough and fuel proof).
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:thumb:
Looking good!
I'm anxious to see the hugger applied with that line on it.
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Silver!
I'm thinking about painting some for the first time. Where can I find the best "How to"?
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Finally got around to fitting the new chain. Got rid of the OEM 525 sized sprockets and chain. I installed an EK 520SRX chain with 520 sized sprockets, 15 tooth front and 47 tooth rear. I had no prior experience with chain replacement so I did a little research on the interwebs to learn how to do the rivet link properly (there are always videos of things like this, many thanks to the guys who take the time to make them). The whole operation went off without a hitch.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0676_zps0ae55101.jpg)
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0684_zps52741c54.jpg)
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Also got some work done placing a few more of the fuel injection system components inside the bike... working in the tail end of the bike: in this next picture I've mounted the Microsquirt ECU and the Innovate wideband O2 sensor controller behind the new battery tray.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0680_zpsc11e3643.jpg)
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In the previous picture you can also see the light gray colored protective sheathing on the wiring bundle coming out of the Microsquirt ECU. This next picture is of the open end of that wiring bundle. This represents about half of the wiring I'll have to do. There's a lot of cutting, splicing, soldering and heat-shrink wrapping work in my future.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0679_zpsdbf05232.jpg)
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Another thing I got done today was painting the inset areas on the footrest plates black.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0681_zpsda3f5fa4.jpg)
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Why'd you go for 520 and not 525?
Are you thinking about raising the rear with different dogbones or rearshock? Stock 400 is so low on the rear.. both aesthetics and handling wise.
That 400 will be as new once you're done :yikes: (and perhaps even better with fuel injections ;) )
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That 400 will be as new once you're done :yikes: (and perhaps even better with fuel injections ;) )
Yeah, that's probably true. The whole thing is a bit over-the-top, I'm aware of that. I'm sure there are deep-seated psychological reasons/factors that cause me do it this way.
But I'm enjoying myself. Can't imagine doing it any other way.
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The 520 vs. 530 chain thing is an old debate/issue for motorcycles of moderate horsepower, like the Bandit 400.
A quality 520 sized chain is more than adequate for the Bandit 400's 53hp and with modern O-ring or X-ring technology they last quite a long time on the bike.
I personally suspect that bikes like the Bandit 400 originally came equipped 530 sized chains simply because of economic issues. The 530 size chain was a compromise: it was the perfect chain for big bikes like the 600s, 750s, 1000s, big cruisers and etc., and it was an okay chain on small displacement bikes (even if it looked a little oversized and heavy on the smaller bikes). This allowed the manufacturers to achieve "economies of scale" with really large OEM parts orders from their suppliers (which makes the bean-counting, bottom-line obsessed accountant types happy).
I think it just looks better on the bike, less "agricultural". Some people like to point out that the racing community always uses 520 (or even smaller) chains on bikes of this size. Less mass equals more speed, better handling.
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Hehe, the building process is a big part of the whole deal..and will make riding it even more enjoyable! Not over the top at all .. it's just a hobby IMO :).
Anyway, You're talkinga bout 530 and 520 but for my 400 the stock is 525, so in-between. (DID 525VX)
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Yes, you're absolutely right... 525 is the OEM for the Bandit 400. I don't know where I got 530 on the brain.
Now I'm bothered by all the mentions of 530 in my previous post. In every case I meant to say 525 but somehow I had 530 stuck in my mind. Oh well...
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Wow! Loving your work :thanks:
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I'm back. Hope everybody's doing well.
I spent the last couple of months working too hard at my job, but October is going to be almost all "me-time" so I'm back in the garage and working hard on the project.
The last couple of days I've been working on the Bandit's wiring.
The first phase of my wiring task was removing the parts of the OEM wiring harness that I don't need, streamlining it and incorporating it into the basic structure of my new fuel injection wiring harness. I had to insure that all of the old items are wired properly and operable: headlight, warning lights, turn signals, horn, starter button, clutch switch, neutral switch, side-stand switch, oil pressure sensor, signal generator, etc.
I finished that part of the job up this afternoon.
So tomorrow I'll begin adding the wiring for the fuel injection components: Coil-on-plug sticks plus their ignitor box, injector wiring, fuel pump, air temperature sensor, water temperature sensor, radiator fan control relay, manifold absolute pressure sensor array, throttle position sensor, fast-idle cold start system, wideband oxygen sensor plus its controller, and etc.
And I'll have some pictures of this work in a day or so.
It's so good to be back in the garage...
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When I disassembled the Bandit last November I put the brakes into a box and put it at the back of the garage. Then I kinda forgot about them or subconsciously decided to ignore them, I don't know which is the truth...
So they ended up being the very last item that I had to clean and refurbish. This fact made them very unattractive to me. At this point I'm totally fed up with cleaning dirty motorcycle parts. Also, I've always disliked rebuilding brakes, I can't stand brake fluid.
But at this point in the project it just wasn't possible to continue ignoring them so I had to spend a Saturday up to my elbows in dirt and brake fluid.
So I completely disassembled them, cleaned every part, painted the calipers, reassembled everything (replaced the piston seals and wipers, the front brake pads, and all of the banjo bolt crush-washers), re-installed it all on the Bandit and then refilled and bled the lines.
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Here's what the calipers look like after cleaning and painting...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0691_zpse054fa4b.jpg)
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The rear brake parts. Such a weird, old-school design with those opposing pistons and two bleed nipples.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0694_zps27e677e8.jpg)
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The front brake parts. One of the prior owners replaced the original front brake line with a Galfer braided steel hose.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0696_zps0926e5c1.jpg)
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I've been working pretty hard on the wiring. Integrating the remains of the original wiring harness into my new fuel injection wiring harness as I continue to add the fuel injection components.
Here's a couple pictures of the wiring. It's not quite finished yet, there are a couple more components to add and wire into the harness.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0714_zps2ae7a3a5.jpg)
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It's quite a challenge to cram all of the fuel injection system components into the very limited space available on the Bandit 400.
The Bandit's minimal fairing and mostly-exposed framework is a large part of its attractiveness to me so I didn't want to ugly it up, but I still needed to put in a bunch of stuff.
At the middle of the Bandit's frame in the piece of space that used to be taken up mostly by the battery I've located the following components: Fuel Pump, Fuel Filter, Coolant Overflow, Rectifier/Regulator and Starter Solenoid. (and the rear brake reservoir had to stay where it originally was so I had to work around that)
Also, as you can see, the wiring harness has to pass through this area without interfering or being visible and ugly.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0704_zps6eb185c6.jpg)
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I'm pretty pleased with the results, I got a lot of stuff arranged and securely mounted into a relatively small piece of space. The components are accessible and each one can be removed without having to remove any of the others, which is good.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0711_zps8c31947c.jpg)
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ETA first start up? :trustme:
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ETA first start up? :trustme:
I'm not sure. I'm nearly finished with the wiring and I've been testing components to verify the connections. Everything looks good so far.
The next step toward engine start-up will be initializing the Microsquirt ECU to begin the process of setting up the engine operating parameters. I don't know if this process will go quickly or if it will take a while. Since this is my second motorcycle fuel injection project I'm hoping to get through it quickly.
On the down-side I'm scheduled to work a lot next month so I might not make it to the garage as often as I'd like to.
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Looking good Greg, you've done a cracking job of getting all the parts located :grin:
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Back in the garage today, working toward the first start-up of the Injection Project Bandit...
The first item on today's "to-do list" was something I've been avoiding for quite a while. It was the small task of taking the oil pan off the bottom of the engine to inspect the bottom end.
Because the history of this Bandit is almost totally unknown to me I was apprehensive about what I might find. A few months ago the oil sample that I took when I drained the Bandit's oil came back from its Blackstone Labs analysis with very good results, but I had no idea how long the oil had been in the engine when I bought the bike so there was still some doubt in my mind.
Things have gone really well today. The oil pan turned out to be very clean with only a little dirty residue in the bottom. The oil pick-up strainer screen contained only a small amount of debris most of which appeared to be the usual bits of silicon sealant that end up in the oil. This is the usual stuff that comes from the engine's assembly at the factory. Nothing alarming was to be found so I'm really happy.
With the oil pan and the oil pickup removed I had a very good view upward into the gearbox so I did a full visual inspection of every gear and every dog-tooth. I used a mirror and a very bright flashlight to get a good look as I slowly rotated the gears. I'm very happy to say that it appears my Bandit was never "speed-shifted" by a boy-racer. All the gearbox components are free of damage.
Even the "dogs" that engage second gear, which is the most commonly damaged gearbox part, don't show any damage or unusual wear. In fact, there's very little wear at all in the gearbox. I can only guess that the bike was never abused and the oil was always maintained/changed regularly.
And, based on this evidence, I'm finally willing believe that the 19,000 miles that show on the Bandit's odometer are correct.
It was a very good day in the garage!
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I spent today's allotment of "garage time" putting together a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor array.
In a fuel injection system the MAP sensor measures the vacuum that is created in the intake tract during operation.
The problem with the Bandit is that there's no central intake manifold to put a single MAP sensor on like a car would have. This is how most fuel injection systems are configured. But the Bandit 400 breaths in through individual throttle bodies (in case you haven't followed this entire build thread, I've converted the bike's original bank of Mikuni BST32s from carbs into throttle bodies). Using individual throttle bodies means there is no central spot on the intake to place the MAP sensor and the Bandit's small, high revving cylinders produce a very jagged, jumpy vacuum that is basically useless.
Sometimes people working on do-it-yourself fuel injection projects will attempt to overcome this problem by running tubes from each of the cylinders to a small plenum that contains the MAP sensor. This can help because it has the effect of averaging, combining and damping the individual cylinder's jagged, jumpy vacuum.
But I wanted to go a bit further toward solving this issue...
This circuit has a dedicated MAP sensor to measure the vacuum of each individual cylinder. It takes these continuous inputs from the cylinders and only reports the vacuum signal from the cylinder that is currently pulling the most vacuum. It uses high-speed switching diodes to do this operation on a millisecond-by-millisecond basis.
Here's what the circuit looks like. There is a sensor for each cylinder (the top four sensors), and there's a fifth sensor that will act as a "constant barometric" sensor. This fifth sensor will make it possible for the Microsquirt to correct fueling when I ride to higher elevations.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0726_zps09de1c2c.jpg)
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Most of the wiring is hidden below the sensors. It's a relatively simple circuit, it only contains 5 switching diodes, 1 Zener diode, 3 resistors and 1 Op Amp. I had to order the sensors but everything else, including the circuit board, came from Radio Shack.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0728_zps694e1756.jpg)
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Here's the circuit laid out on a circuit simulator app. This simulator allows you to test how your circuit will work before you build it.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/SyncroMAPcircuitdrawing_zps4358c71c.jpg)
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Here's the transfer function that these Freescale Semiconductor MPX4115 MAP sensors use. It changes the engine's intake vacuum (measured in kPa) into a signal that ranges between 0 and 5 volts.
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Tomorrow I'll be putting oil in the Bandit's crankcase.
Then I'll begin turning the engine over without fuel or ignition. This will be for testing of the signal generator (variable reluctance pulser) input to the Microsquirt. This is the first step in setting up the ignition timing.
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Fantastic work Greg :clap:
Really enjoying the write ups
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Squeezed in some garage time today (Sunday). I've got oil in the Bandit's crankcase and I'm turning the engine over.
The first step toward firing the engine is verifying that the Microsquirt (the Bandit's fuel injection ECU) is getting a pulse from the Signal Generator (Variable Reluctance sensor). I'm using my laptop computer, hooked up to the Microsquirt's communications plug, controlling the Microsquirt with a software package called TunerStudio.
With communication established between the Microsqurit and TunerStudio I've done a couple of data-captures of the engine turning over. For safety and to protect the fuel injection system's components I've taken out the fuses that supply electricity to the ignition coils, the injectors and the fuel pump so that none of the dangerous stuff has any power.
All I wanted to see today was whether the Microsquirt is getting a good trace from the Signal Generator.
Here's a screenshot of the TunerStudio program display after I took a "Tooth Log" of the Signal Generator.
In a TunerStudio Tooth Log each of the blue lines indicates the time that has elapsed between each tooth on the trigger wheel as they pass by the Signal Generator.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ToothLog_zpsd14e6550.jpg)
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My Bandit's (modified) trigger wheel has 5 teeth spaced out on the wheel as if there where 6 teeth (with one missing tooth). In the do-it-yourself fuel injection world this wheel is called a "6 minus 1". The missing tooth is the area of the trigger wheel that creates the extra-tall blue line on the Tooth Log.
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This next picture is a screenshot from a TunerStudio "Composite Log". The Composite Log tells whether the Microsquirt is configured correctly to read my 6-1 trigger wheel pulses. The blue lines are the trigger wheel teeth going past the Signal Generator sensor and the red lines at the bottom indicate whether or not the Microsquirt has achieved "Sync".
When the Microsquirt has "Sync" the red lines stop and this means that the Microsquirt now knows where Top-Dead-Center of cylinder #1 is. When it knows this it is capable of controlling the Bandit's ignition system.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/CompositeLogpic_zps20ede781.jpg)
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You can see that the red lines end pretty quickly, after only a couple of engine rotations, which means the Microsquirt is getting "Sync" very quickly. This is great! I can now move on to the next step on the way toward getting this engine running...
...just in time for winter :duh:.
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Today's discovery/revelation is that I'm a spoiled brat... when it comes to my expectations of the Bandit 400's electrical system.
Explanation:
My first motorcycle fuel injection project was a 2005 Kawasaki EX250. I guess I'm guilty of "looking down on my nose" at the EX250. I've always assumed that its systems were all rather basic examples of late-1980's motorcycle technology and design.
Well, today I came to the realization that there's a point where the EX250 beats the GSF400.
The EX250 has a headlight cutout relay that disables power to the headlight from key-switch-on until after the engine is started and power is coming through the rectifier/regulator. The GSF400 does not have this feature. I was spoiled by the EX250 and I just assumed that the GSF400 would have this technology. Now I feel like a spoiled brat.
Here's what the Kawasaki EX250's headlight circuitry looks like:
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/EX250Headlight_zps7cdeee28.jpg)
The most delicate moment in running a fuel injection system is cranking/starting. This is because during those first few seconds you need the battery to provide power for all of the system's electrical needs: ECU power, Fuel Pump, Starter Motor, Ignition Coils and more. The one thing you absolutely don't want is to have a large voltage drop in the system (this adversely affects all sorts of things). Having the headlight power disabled during these moments is pretty important.
But I'm in luck because back when Triumph Motorcycles started building bikes with fuel injection they (Triumph's design team) didn't bother to add in a headlight cutout relay. So the whole first generation of their fuel injected motorcycles are difficult to start and there's an aftermarket "plug-'n-play" headlight relay that was developed to cure the problem.
This relay is designed to fit motorcycles with H4 headlight bulbs, which is what the Bandit has. It will plug right into the Bandit's headlight in the headlight bucket. With this modification the Bandit's headlight will stay off until after engine startup. Then you have to flick the headlight switch to "bright" for a moment which activates the relay and the headlight will operate normally.
I ordered the item today, it should arrive in a few days. Until then I'll be doing my work on the Bandit with the headlight unplugged.
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It Runs!!! :banana: Holy crap, It runs!!!
Tonight the fuel injected Bandit 400 came to life for the first time.
Over the last few days I'd been having a bit of trouble getting the Microsquirt ECU to "play nice" with the Suzuki OEM trigger wheel + pulse generator, all of my test results and data-logs looked horrible. But tonight I had a sudden brain-storm and figured out what the Microsquirt wanted. I made a small change to the teeth of the trigger wheel. I took a dremel and cut the width of the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm which resulted in a pulse profile that the Microsquirt loves.
The Bandit starts up right on the button, no hesitation at all.
I let it idle for a while so it could warm up and the bike appears to be "all systems go":
- No fuel leaks, the Honda TRX500 fuel pump whirrs along happily with the Ninja ZX-6R injectors firing away,
- no coolant leaks,
- all 4 individual header pipes heat up together (so I know the Honda CBR600 coil-on-plug sticks are firing on all 4 cylinders),
- the electrical system is showing 13.7 volts when the engine is running meaning the Yamaha YZF-R1 rectifier/regulator is working properly,
- all the sensors reporting correctly, which means all the wiring was done right.
Sometime next week I'll be back in the garage to begin the tuning phase. Before long it will be time to test-ride if the weather will allow it.
I will be taking some video of the bike soon and I'll post it here on the thread.
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That's pretty cool!
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:clap: Absolutely awesome Greg
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:yikes:
Gotta say, didn't expect it to start right away!
Almost always something is wrong.
Great job, curious to see the video and ito hear sbout how it performs
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Congratulations Greg, though judging from your previous experience from the Kawasaki EX-250 conversion I had no doubt that this project would come along smoothly. You plan and execute professional and efficiently!
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Thanks Themis,
I can't wait to get back to work on it.
My breakthrough moment was realizing that the teeth on the OEM Suzuki wheel were just too wide to make a Microsquirt's variable reluctance interface circuit happy http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/vr.htm (http://www.useasydocs.com/theory/vr.htm) (the wide trigger wheel teeth might be okay for the Bandit 400's OEM Denso Corp. ignition control system, but I can tell you they were definitely not good for a Microsquirt). I can't remember if your Bandit 400 fuel injection project was fuel-only or if it included ignition control... you may remember reading in the Microsquirt/Megasquirt manual they (Bowling & Grippo) strongly recommend that the trigger wheel teeth be approximately the same width as the VR sensor pickup. That was the change I made.
But as usual, garage time is limited. The rest of November is tightly scheduled with a bunch of other things (work and family).
It looks like early December will be my next stretch of quality garage time. Looking forward to it.
How's your Bandit? We know who was the first one to fuel inject a B4 (I have to settle with being the first in the U.S).
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Wow! Awesome, congratulations! :clap:
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Thanks Themis,
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How's your Bandit? We know who was the first one to fuel inject a B4 (I have to settle with being the first in the U.S).
I am running fuel control only. Never intended to do ignition control and actually I am more than happy the way it runs -especially after the intank fuel pump installation- and use it on a daily basis.
So you have the first B4 with fully computerized engine control management (fuel + ignition) system! :thumb:
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Over the last few days I'd been having a bit of trouble getting the Microsquirt ECU to "play nice" with the Suzuki OEM trigger wheel + pulse generator, all of my test results and data-logs looked horrible. But tonight I had a sudden brain-storm and figured out what the Microsquirt wanted. I made a small change to the teeth of the trigger wheel. I took a dremel and cut the width of the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm which resulted in a pulse profile that the Microsquirt loves.
If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?
Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting :thumb:
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Over the last few days I'd been having a bit of trouble getting the Microsquirt ECU to "play nice" with the Suzuki OEM trigger wheel + pulse generator, all of my test results and data-logs looked horrible. But tonight I had a sudden brain-storm and figured out what the Microsquirt wanted. I made a small change to the teeth of the trigger wheel. I took a dremel and cut the width of the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm which resulted in a pulse profile that the Microsquirt loves.
If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?
Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting :thumb:
and also didn't that just messed up the balancing that you did previously?
I am astounded from your work
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and also didn't that just messed up the balancing that you did previously?
I am astounded from your work
:beers:
Good question.
I took that effect into consideration.
When I cut the 5 trigger wheel teeth down from 13mm to 6mm I didn't have to worry about the dynamic balance effect that 4 of the teeth would have because they sit opposite each other on the wheel, so their change cancels each other out.
I only had to worry about the effect of the weight removed from the one tooth that sits opposite of the "missing tooth".
When I cut off the excess 7mm of material from that tooth (the one that sits opposite from the "missing tooth") I used the removed piece as a template for the removal of the same amount of material from the opposite side of the wheel. It was "eyeball" work but I think I got it right and the result should be that my trigger wheel is still well balanced.
Aside from the question of dynamic balance, there is a larger, overarching issue that should be considered. The Bandits trigger wheel is mounted to a heavy disk of metal and together they serve as flywheel mass, which carries and preserves the engine's rotational energy. When you lighten an an engine's flywheel it makes the engine easier to clutch-stall because it has less intertia.
Hopefully I haven't taken too much weight out of the assembly. I think it's only about 35 to 40 grams lighter.
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If I understood well, you had to cut the 5 remaining teeth from their original width to something narrower. Is that correct?
Thanks for sharing your experiment anyway. This is so interesting
Sometimes I don't know how much technical information I should put into my posts, but if you're interested in hearing about it here's more...
Let me know when I reach the "Too Much Information" zone (obviously I find all of this extremely interesting or I wouldn't be doing it as a hobby).
The Bandit's original equipment ignition system is a product of Japan's Denso Corporation (and its subsidiaries and suppliers). Denso's approach to ignition control during the '80s and '90s was a pretty unique and rapidly evolving one. The Bandit 400's system represents a sort of "half way" point in the automotive/motorcycle transition from the old-world of Mechanical Points and Condensers to the current world of fully digitized, ECU controlled ignition and fuel injection.
So when viewed from the perspective of today's world the Bandit's early '90s Denso ignition control system seems a bit strange or maybe just quaint. The part of this "strangeness" that was affecting me a couple days ago was the width of the teeth on the Denso trigger wheel.
Modern ignition control systems use one of three methods to sense a trigger wheel:
1. a VR sensor (VR stands for "Variable Reluctance"). A VR sensor is a simple "piece of metal passing by a magnet" type of sensor. A VR sensor is unpowered, it generates current for its signal simply by the metal trigger wheel teeth passing by the permanent magnet contained within the sensor.
2. a Hall Effect sensor, which is basically a more modern version of the VR sensor. It is a powered sensor and it has a built in circuit to interpret the magnetic effect of trigger wheel teeth passing by it, then its circuitry sends a simple "square-wave" signal (0 volts to 5 volts) off to the ECU,
3. an Optical sensor, which is exactly what it sounds like.
The Bandit 400's Denso system uses a VR sensor, which is what the overwhelming majority of today's systems use, but the circuitry in its CDI box was apparently designed to interpret the passing of the trigger wheel teeth in a very different way than what has become the norm (in current times, i.e. the year 2000 and onward).
Here's a breakdown of what happens between the trigger wheel teeth and the VR sensor:
As a tooth on the trigger wheel approaches the VR sensor it induces a positive (+) signal that becomes stronger until it peaks just as the leading edge of the tooth reaches the sensor, then the signal begins to descend until the tooth is centered across the sensor. It is exactly at this point, when the trigger wheel tooth is exactly centered with the sensor, that the signal "crosses zero" and enters the negative (-) range. As the tooth continues past the VR sensor the signal tails off to almost nothing until the next tooth arrives at the sensor. It is this "crossing zero" effect that the Microsquirt uses to count the tooth.
For those of you who appreciate the math behind things, here's a breakdown of the actual timing involved in my Bandit's trigger wheel:
The Bandit 400 can rev to 13,500 RPM. There are 60,000 milliseconds in a minute. So 60,000 divided by 13,500 equals 4.45 milliseconds for each 360 degrees of engine rotation. There are 6 teeth on my Bandit's trigger wheel (5 real teeth and 1 that's missing but the Microsquirt knows about) at redline engine speed (13,500 RPMs) there's a tooth passing by the VR sensor every .74 millisecond. Or instead of .74 milliseconds, since there's 1000 microseconds in a millisecond you can say a tooth passes by the sensor every 740 microseconds. Or you could go the other direction in magnitude and say that there's a tooth passing the sensor every .00074 seconds.
The thing that really amazes me is even at that speed my Microsquirt ECU isn't working hard. At those same RPMs it could easily handle a trigger wheel with a lot more teeth (I'm impressed, but I'm a complete nerd that way).
But, back to my problem with the Bandit's trigger wheel...
Today it's apparently "industry standard" to have trigger wheel teeth that are approximately the same width as the permanent magnet in the VR sensor. This matching of tooth-to-sensor sizes makes for a very clean and definite "tooth passing by" signal and this is the sort of signal that modern ECUs are designed to receive and interpret and, most importantly, this is what my Microsquirt's circuitry is expecting to see.
It appears that the Bandit's "state of the 1990s" Denso CDI box circuitry depends on other portions or events in the VR sensor's electrical output for information, or maybe it is simply immune to the possible side-effects of a really wide tooth.
During cranking (under the electrical starter-motor motivation) an engine doesn't maintain a constant speed. Instead, the compression stroke of individual cylinders causes it to go through a "slow-down-speed-up" cycle.
My Microsquirt was having trouble correctly interpreting the trigger wheel teeth during cranking, which is a complete show-stopper. The Microsquirt was double and triple counting the teeth that were passing by the VR sensor during the moments when the compression slowdown-speedup was happening. And with the Bandit's inline 4-cylinder engine a piston reaches TDC on a compression stroke every 180 degrees of engine rotation.
If the Microsquirt cannot properly interpret the trigger wheel teeth it won't be able to "achieve sync" which means it can't match the trigger wheel pattern it is sensing to the trigger wheel pattern definition that I've programmed into it. When this fails to happen the Microsquirt will not command the ignition coils to fire or the injectors to squirt fuel. The engine will not start.
Here's the part that I feel dumb about: The MegaManual, the main document which outlines the "how to" of do-it-yourself fuel injection, says that the trigger wheel teeth should be approximately the same width as the VR sensor. I don't know why I ignored this directive, it was right there in black and white. I'd read the MegaManual several times over so this information was in my head (somewhere) the whole time I was building my Bandit.
But for some unknown reason I ignored the information until I reached an impasse. Then a couple of days ago, when I was talking to my brother on the phone about the issue, I suddenly realized what I needed to do.
I went back down to the garage, took the left-side cover off of the Bandit and cut the teeth down from 13mm to 6mm without taking the trigger wheel off of the engine. I carefully covered everything with plastic wrap and aluminum foil so the grinding/cutting debris wouldn't get into the engine and oil. Then I put the cover back on and when I tried the starter the engine fired right up.
For the "visual learners" I'll put up a couple pictures of the trigger wheel, both before the tooth modification and after.
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Awesome write up
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For the "visual learners" I'll put up a couple pictures of the trigger wheel, both before the tooth modification and after.
This is exactly what I was going to ask you :grin:
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A few days ago, before my first successful start-up, I rolled the Bandit out into the sunlight for an attempt at some video of the project. I wasn't going for anything artistic or exciting (unless you're a Do-It-Yourself fuel injection nerd).
This bit of video focuses on the engine's left-side cover (It's from before the recent tooth modification from 13mm wide to 6mm).
Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
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A few days ago, before my first successful start-up, I rolled the Bandit out into the sunlight for an attempt video. I wasn't going for anything artistic or exciting (unless you're a Do-It-Yourself fuel injection nerd).
This bit of video focuses on the engine's left-side cover (It's from before the recent tooth modification from 13mm wide to 6mm).
http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%202_zps4ghxwm5v.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
Can't you just rotate the crank manually without oil?
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Can't you just rotate the crank manually without oil?
What would rotating the crank manually accomplish? Beyond simply verifying the mechanical alignment?
I'm already using the OEM trigger wheel, I already know that it is aligned properly on the crankshaft. It has a Woodruff keyway on the crankshaft and trigger wheel to insure alignment.
And, yes, I did rotate the engine by hand to insure that the #1 piston was at top-dead-center when the timing marks aligned.
But that's just the first step in "timing" an engine from the beginning. All that turning an engine by hand can tell you is that the mechanical items are properly aligned. Now you have to move on to the interface between these mechanical components and the bike's electrical system, which is my Microsquirt ECU.
After you've installed the trigger wheel properly so that the timing arrows physically line up (the arrow on the trigger wheel tooth and the arrow that is cast into the crankcase), you have to program the Microsquirt ECU with the pattern of the trigger wheel (which is "6 minus 1" on my project Bandit).
Now here's the tricky part: You also have to program in your estimate of the angular difference between when the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes the VR sensor and the moment of top-dead-center for cylinder #1.
Once that is programmed into the Microsquirt you connect up a timing strobe light to the #1 cylinder sparkplug HT lead and begin cranking the engine. You watch the trigger wheel and see where the timing strobe "freezes" the wheel on each rotation. If you don't get a perfect alignment between the timing marks at the strobe flash you have to go back into the Microsquirt and program in a revised estimate of the angular difference between when the first tooth after the missing tooth gap passes the VR sensor and the moment of top-dead-center for cylinder #1.
Repeat the process until you get it spot-on.
Example from my work: My original estimate was that the angle was 300 degrees. But this turned out to be wrong. After a bit of trial and error I discovered the correct angle was 270 degrees. Now my engine is perfectly timed (basic timing) and ready to tune.
The reason my original estimate was off by 30 degrees is that it was just an "educated guess" made by eye-balling the approximate location of the VR sensor mounting in the engine cover and the crankcase casting timing mark. I really didn't expect to get it perfect on the first try.
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So I guess the ignition coil doesn't fire when you turn it over manually with ignition on?
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So I guess the ignition coil doesn't fire when you turn it over manually with ignition on?
No.
Even with the original equipment Denso Corp. ignition control there has to be electrical power and trigger wheel pattern recognition before the CDI will fire a coil.
The Microsquirt operates similarly. When you switch the key to on and press the starter button the Microsquirt allows the engine to rotate through three (3) full 360 degree rotations before it will fire a coil. During those three "dead" rotations the Microsquirt is comparing the VR sensor input pattern from the trigger wheel with the trigger wheel definition that I entered into its firmware.
If, after these three rotations, the received patterns match the pattern definition in the Microsquirt's memory it will begin firing coils and commanding the injectors to fuel the engine.
Only then can you use the timing strobe light to verify that the commanded top-dead-center cylinder #1 angle is correct.
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Ah, I didn't know that.
I thought that (well at least for the old Denso ignitor) it would just fire whenever it got a signal from the wheel. Didn't think it had pattern recognition, being 20 years old and all.
You mentioned it for the Microsquirt though, so ye makes sense.
Anyway keep up the video's! :)
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Awesome stuff greg, keep going.
About the signal duration and frequency, what chip runs the MicroSquirt? I was playing with the idea of doing some monitoring of the b4 engine with an Atmel based microcontroller (the teensy, if you care) and back of the envelope calcs suggested it was well within the chip's onboard ADC capabilities, but I've since lost those calcs (as things on the backs envelopes tend to go).
It seemed to me at the time that it would be fairly easy to produce power curves based on the first derivative of the engine RPM for doing some carb tuning without the need for a dyno. anywho... that project died the grisly death of not enough time...
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About the signal duration and frequency, what chip runs the MicroSquirt?
The Microsquirt's Serial Circuit is a MAX3221
The Microsquirt's Variable Reluctance (VR) interface circuit is a Maxim MAX992x integrated circuit.
I don't know much about this level of the system, down at the individual circuits. I just know that it gets the job done.
It seemed to me at the time that it would be fairly easy to produce power curves based on the first derivative of the engine RPM for doing some carb tuning without the need for a dyno. anywho... that project died the grisly death of not enough time...
The piece of equipment that I would recommend to anyone who wants to do some serious carb tuning would be the Innovate Motorsports LC-2 wideband oxygen sensor controller. Of course this would require the installation of an exhaust bung and a Bosch 5-wire wideband oxygen sensor. Back in this thread I've got some pictures of my exhaust header with the bung and sensor installed.
Here's a few seconds of video that shows the completed installation of the bung and sensor. You'll notice that the Bosch oxygen sensor protrudes into the space that is normally occupied by the Bandit's center-stand pivot points. I had to remove the center-stand and grind the pivot points off of the frame to accommodate the sensor installation.
Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%205_zpsbb9lrzt1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%205_zpsbb9lrzt1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
I also had to remove the center stand from my first fuel injection conversion project bike (the Kawasaki EX250) so it wasn't a tough decision to do the same thing to the Bandit. I've never missed having the center stand on the Kawasaki at all. I have a Pit Bull stand for when I'm working on the bike in the garage.
There's nothing like getting instant feedback on the engine's air/fuel ratios. The LC-2 can also perform datalogging when connected to a laptop computer so you could work on the power curves from a different angle.
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Here's a few more video clips of the project bike:
This first clip is a quick tour of the area in the middle of the Bandit's frame. I've relocated the battery to the tail of the bike and now this area contains the Rectifier/Regulator, Fuel Pump, Fuel Filter, Starter Solenoid, Rear Brake Reservoir, Coolant Overflow Bottle and a lot of plumbing and wiring. I've crammed a lot into a small space.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%204_zpsi46cnrkn.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%204_zpsi46cnrkn.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1)
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This next clip is a view of the items that will be hidden beneath the Solo Cowl. This will include the Battery, Microsquirt ECU, Fuse Box, Main Power Relay, Fuel Pump Relay, Radiator Fan Control Relay and Wideband Oxygen Sensor Controller.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%203_zpssd2g0rsf.mp4.html?sort=3&o=2 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%203_zpssd2g0rsf.mp4.html?sort=3&o=2)
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And this last clip focuses on the Fuel Injection Throttle Bodies which used to be the Bandit's original set of Mikuni BST32 carbs.
I removed the float bowls and plugged up all the related passageways and plumbing. I also took out the choke mechanism. The only things that I kept operational are the throttle plates plus the constant velocity diaphragms and their slides.
The Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R secondary fuel injector array is mounted at the bottom where the float bowls used to be. The tips of the fuel injectors stick up into the throttle bodies at a 45 degree angle, just a few millimeters after the throttle plates. This arrangement should provide very good fuel atomization and mixing with the intake air.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%206_zpsvhqtlwir.mp4.html (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%206_zpsvhqtlwir.mp4.html)
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Keep it coming Greg! Great stuff. Now we need to hear it run ;-)
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Keep it coming Greg! Great stuff. Now we need to hear it run ;-)
Yes, please!!! Show us how smooth it can run :grin:
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Keep it coming Greg! Great stuff. Now we need to hear it run ;-)
Yes, please!!! Show us how smooth it can run :grin:
Between now and early December there's not going to be much garage-time for me. But in early December I have a whole week off, the 7th through the 13th, with nothing planned but relaxing and tinkering in the garage. I expect to get a lot done on the Bandit project during that time. If the weather cooperates I might even get it out on the road.
The Bandit's first start-up occurred last week after I made the trigger wheel tooth modification. It was after 9:00pm and since then I've had a couple of my neighbors comment that they noticed I finally got it started. I probably shouldn't have tried to start it that night but I was kind of excited to see if my modification had solved my problem.
When it started up it was running on fuel settings that were my "best guesses" at what the engine would need to idle. It turned out that these settings were a bit on the aggressive side and the Bandit was idling at about 2,200 to 2,400 RPM, which is pretty noisy. I made a couple of quick adjustments to the idle airflow and fueling which got it down below 2,000 RPM. After I took a couple of quick data-logs and made a couple of timing strobe light examinations of the trigger wheel I shut it down for the night.
I'm pleased with the results of this first (short) successful run. The engine got up to normal operating temperature and didn't leak any coolant, oil or fuel. Since then it's been sitting quietly in the garage, continuing not to leak. This makes me happy.
Looking forward to December...
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Don't you think putting the battery all the way in the back will hurt handling?
Then again it's a small battery...
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Don't you think putting the battery all the way in the back will hurt handling?
Then again it's a small battery...
Yeah, but the battery's location is just one (relatively minor) factor in the overall "handling" package.
Yes, the battery is now mounted slightly higher in the chassis. Is this offset by the change in rider-body-position provided by the slightly lower Suburban Machinery handlebars? I think maybe so.
And yes, the battery is now located aft of its original chassis mounting point, but it is still ahead of the rear wheel's axle which means the relocation's affect on the bike's longitudinal (polar) moment of inertia should be close to nil.
Here's a thought: In its original configuration the GSF400 probably has a pretty highly forward-biased distribution of mass due to the nature of its inline-4 engine plus the water cooling and the steel trellis frame. I had to remove the bike's center stand and center stand pivot attachment points due to where the wideband oxygen sensor needed to be mounted (on the last few inches of the header's exhaust collector). Because these items were at the back end of the package it just might be true that I needed to move some mass aft in the chassis to offset the change.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GoodtiresBobmused.jpg)
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Here's one more video from the various clips I shot a week ago.
This clip is really just the odd bits and leftovers from that day, the stuff that isn't important but possibly interesting to a few of you.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%207_zpsyd7kyzcn.mp4.html (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%207_zpsyd7kyzcn.mp4.html)
(Note: I'm still getting over the surprise that the Bandit doesn't have a headlight cutout relay.)
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(Note: I'm still getting over the surprise that the Bandit doesn't have a headlight cutout relay.)
Does that fact that you can completely turn off the light help with that matter? I would have believed the relay you are mentionning would be usefull only for more recent motorcycles with automatic light ignition.
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(Note: I'm still getting over the surprise that the Bandit doesn't have a headlight cutout relay.)
Does that fact that you can completely turn off the light help with that matter? I would have believed the relay you are mentionning would be usefull only for more recent motorcycles with automatic light ignition.
I have the U.S.A. version of the Bandit 400. It does not have the switch you're talking about.
The European versions of the Bandit 400 have a three-position switch on the right-handlebar that controls the lights (OFF, ON and Park, which is represented by a black dot).
Many years ago in the U.S.A. it was decided by our "nanny-state" government (the U.S. Department of Transportation, "DOT") that motorcycles should have headlights that remain "on" constantly while the vehicle is in operation.
That's why I'm astounded that Suzuki didn't include a headlight relay on the U.S.A. model.
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Back in the garage today, time to make some progress on the Bandit 400...
A video showing the Bandit hooked up to an auxiliary battery, a Carbtune synchronizer, a timing light and my computer. Getting set to fine-tune the engine's startup parameters.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%208_zpsw2gkl1mi.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%208_zpsw2gkl1mi.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
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And here's a very short video of a startup.
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%209_zps14wxyj38.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%209_zps14wxyj38.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
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so much good stuff...
Hey, you should keep track of that cut-up left side cover so that others can use it without having to cut another one up :)
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Hey, you should keep track of that cut-up left side cover so that others can use it without having to cut another one up :)
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I'll add it to my growing collection of Bandit parts. I've got a box of all the things I've removed, improved and/or modified. Several of the items I've removed have already been sent off to new homes, example: I mailed my Bandit's CDI off to forum-member t6nis in Estonia.
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0739_zps546f180b.jpg)
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And now, back to the task...
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Today I realized that I was setting the basic timing wrong! I'd misinterpreted the timing marks that Suzuki put on the crankcase. I was accidentally setting the basic ignition timing 15 degrees too advanced.
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Here's a picture of the Bandit 400 crankcase timing marks. You'll notice that there are 2 "T" marks cast into it and that these two marks are exactly 15 degrees apart (which is the amount of idle BTDC ignition advance commanded by the Bandit 400's CDI per the specification: 15 degrees BTDC at 1,500 RPM).
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0737_zpsc1a2f399.jpg)
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Bear in mind that the trigger wheel spins in a counter-clockwise direction. This means that the lower "T" mark (the one with the rectangle shape around it) has to be the base timing mark. It is the mark that the timing strobe light should flash when I've got ZERO ignition advance set into the Microsquirt ECU.
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Here's an even closer shot:
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0738_zps85bf43a4.jpg)
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So I was wrong when I originally determined that 270 degrees was my basic ignition timing angle. Now I know that 270 + 15 is my number. Setting the Microsquirt to a basic ignition angle of 285 degrees causes the timing strobe light to flash at the "T" mark in the rectangle. The "T" in the circle is for 15 degrees BTDC.
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You may have noticed that these pictures (above) are the first ones that show the trigger wheel after I modified it by cutting the tooth-width down from 13mm to 6mm.
Here's what the trigger wheel looked like before the cut-down...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0548_zpsdeaf9640.jpg)
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And here's what it looks like now...
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0736_zps51b220af.jpg)
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Job done!
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0740_zpse3bbf004.jpg)
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A short video covering the U.S.A Bandit 400's headlight wiring. I've added a headlight relay to prevent the headlight from coming on when the bike is "key-switched" to "on" and I've added a headlight modulator for safety.
Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2010_zpsejicrigy.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2010_zpsejicrigy.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
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Close-up picture of the U.S.A. Bandit 400's right hand handlebar controls:
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0742_zps060d6988.jpg)
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Close-up picture of the U.S.A. Bandit 400's right hand handlebar controls:
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(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0742_zps060d6988.jpg)
Got it even without the picture ;-)
Funny to notice the whole packaging is the same, only the switch is not present and there's a cover on it. I believe that symplifies the number of references for the manufacturer.
About the timing issue: where you able to adjust the microsquirt settings and get a smoother engine? Even if you did not have a chance to run it yet?
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Got it even without the picture ;-)
Funny to notice the whole packaging is the same, only the switch is not present and there's a cover on it. I believe that symplifies the number of references for the manufacturer.
I really wasn't trying to be pedantic (or to offend), just documenting the headlight issue now that I've modified the system to a configuration that's pleasing to me.
I agree with you that it appears Suzuki chose the absolute easiest solution to comply with the U.S. government headlight requirement. I guess the actual number of Bandit 400s bound for the U.S.A. was a very, very small percentage of Suzuki's overall worldwide output for the bike. This situation didn't warrant a real change to the bike's wiring harness (i.e. adding a headlight relay) which would have made production more expensive.
About the timing issue: where you able to adjust the microsquirt settings and get a smoother engine? Even if you did not have a chance to run it yet?
Yes. I haven't ridden the Bandit around yet but I've done a lot of idle-speed tuning and testing. Now the idle is normal/tunable/controllable.
My mistake with the basic timing setting, using the wrong crankcase timing mark as the basic timing had the effect of making the bike's idle ignition timing 15 degrees too advanced which combined with my use of 10 degrees of additional timing advance (a perfectly normal amount for a basic idle setting) caused the engine to idle too high, about 2,300 RPM.
Using the wrong timing mark gave me 15 degrees of timing advance, but because I was unaware of this situation I was adding another 10 degrees of timing advance as I attempted to tune the Bandit's idle setting. This was not a good situation: I was thinking I only had 10 degrees of timing advance BTDC (before top dead center) at idle but the real result was a total of 25 degrees of timing advance at idle, which made the bike's idle impossible to tune.
Until I figured out my mistake there was nothing I could do to reduce the idle speed below that level (2,300 RPM). At first I thought the Bandit's intake tract had an air leak somewhere that was allowing in too much air, which is a common cause of high idle speed accompanied by lean air/fuel ratio readings on the wideband oxygen sensor. This theory made sense to me (seemed reasonable) because these were the exact symptoms I was seeing.
In an attempt to diagnose which cylinder(s) were vacuum-leaking I hooked up my Carbtune synchronizer unit to the vacuum port on each Mikuni carb-throttlebody, expecting to see a wide disparity in vacuum between (one or two of) the Bandit's cylinders but instead they were all just about equal and pulling a decent amount of vacuum. So I knew the cause of my problem had to be something else.
I was sitting in my chair next to the motorcycle, feeling completely lost, when the realization hit me that the second "T" mark on the crankcase (the one with the rectangle around it) was about 15 degrees further around in the direction of engine rotation which meant that it was the correct mark to use for the bike's basic timing setting. This might seem obvious, as in "how could I have possibly missed the meaning/implication of the fact there are TWO timing marks on the bike's crankcase?", but I'm living proof that it's possible to make this error...
So I added in the 15 degrees to the Microsquirt ECU's basic ignition setting (changing it from 270 degrees to 285 degrees) and I started the bike up. The Bandit was already warmed up from my previous idle attempts so it settled into a stable idle pretty quickly, but this time it stabilized at 1,600 RPM with a very nice 13.5-to-1 air/fuel ratio showing on the wideband oxygen sensor gauge.
A quick test with the timing strobe light (temporarily removing the 10 degrees of idle timing advance so the Microsquirt ECU would only be using the basic timing number, 285 degrees) showed that I had the "rectangle T" perfectly timed.
Now I can move forward to riding/tuning.
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Got it even without the picture ;-)
Funny to notice the whole packaging is the same, only the switch is not present and there's a cover on it. I believe that symplifies the number of references for the manufacturer.
I really wasn't trying to be pedantic (or to offend), just documenting the headlight issue now that I've modified the system to a configuration that's pleasing to me.
You were not at all, "au contraire" ;-)
Picture is better than any explanation for me. Just funny to see how Suzuki handled that. And I was not expecting a motorcycle from the early 90's to get such a feature.
I hope you can ride it soon and enjoy it. Let us know ;-)
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It rained all day long yesterday but this morning (Wednesday) it stopped and the sky cleared.
I waited all day for the streets to dry. While waiting I got the last bits of idle-speed and cold start-up tuning completed, now the Bandit starts and idles beautifully. Then, as mid-afternoon arrived, I reassembled the bike to make it rideable for the first time since October of 2013.
I put the airbox, fuel tank and rider-seat back on the bike, added a couple of gallons to the fuel tank, corrected the tire pressures and put on a tail-bag to carry the laptop computer.
The computer would be hooked up to the Microsquirt during the ride, running a piece of tuning software called TunerStudio so I could data-log the ride for review afterwards.
Don't know how you guys react to this sort of moment but for me it's alway a very nervous time when I'm out on a first-time road test: Will it run great? Or will it burn to the ground two miles from home? Success or Failure?
I knew ahead of time that the main fueling table (the Volumetric Efficiency Table, a.k.a. "the V.E. table") was only a rough approximation of what I thought the bike would need so the first ride was bound to have some odd hesitations and jumpy, lumpy feeling throttle responses.
The first mile went okay, but with some weird fueling as expected so I pulled over and turned on the TunerStudio feature called "Tune Analyze Live" which automatically corrects fueling as you ride. This feature references (moment by moment, in real time) the Air/Fuel ratio table to learn what the correct ratio should be and compares that number with what the wideband oxygen sensor is currently reporting. If the two differ the program makes incremental corrections to eventually perfect the V.E. table.
And now, here's my screwup of the day:
When I rode out of my neighborhood and onto a nice straight road I began to slowly open the Bandit up, cautiously taking the RPMs higher. At 6,000 RPM the bike stumbled, as if the ignition had momentarily quit. The engine didn't fail, but it wouldn't rev past 6,000 RPM. It was a bit worrying so I cut this first test-ride short and took the Bandit back home.
When I got to the garage and looked at the TunerStudio data-log I discovered the rev-limiter parameter in the software was set to 6,000 RPM. I didn't set it there, this was a default-setting that I never got around to changing. So there was nothing wrong with the Bandit.
Now I'll have to wait out the next two days of rain for another chance at a test-ride. I plan to shoot a bit of video on that ride.
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:clap:
man, I'm so anxious for the next installment. Thanks for sharing all this.
A
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I thought I would try taking a screen-shot from the TunerStudio data-log that I captured during the Bandit's first test ride. I'm not sure how legible it will be...
This is a screen-shot of the real-time data traces. It captures the moment when I first ran into the 6,000 RPM rev limit that I'd failed to change (the TunerStudio software comes from the manufacturer with the REV LIMIT parameter set to 6,000 and you have to change it to match your engine, but I forgot to do that).
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You can see that the data-log is made up of three parallel boxes that move through time from left-to-right, each box has traces of three different engine parameters in different colors.
In the top box the WHITE line is RPMs and you can see that when the engine hits 6,000 everything goes haywire.
In the middle box the RED trace is AIR/FUEL RATIO (as sensed by the Bosch wideband oxygen sensor on the Bandit's exhaust header). When the engine hits the rev limit parameter of 6,000 the Microsquirt ECU shuts off fueling by reducing the commanded PULSE WIDTH (how long the injectors are held open) to nearly zero, which is shown in the middle box by the sudden decrease in the GREEN trace. As a result the RED trace (AIR/FUEL RATIO) jumps upward and for a moment the engine feels like it's going to quit.
As soon as this happened I got off the throttle, which is shown by the GREEN trace in the top box suddenly going downward (TPS = THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR).
So the RPMs drop below 6,000 the Microsquirt resumes commanding normal fueling and everything goes back to normal.
This is what it looks like when you bounce an engine off a rev limiter
(to be specific, this is what a simple, old-school-style fuel-limiting rev limiter looks like. Modern OEM ECUs are much more gentle and progressive when they invoke rev limits, usually using a combination of ignition retard and partial fuel cut).
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:clap:
Very interesting.
Keen to see the results and video with proper rev limiter
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:clap:
Very interesting.
Keen to see the results and video with proper rev limiter
Thanks. As soon as it stops raining and the streets dry I'll be back out for more test-rides.
Road testing is definitely the most enjoyable, exciting part of this project. There's nothing like twisting the throttle, is there? But today, which is very rainy, I'm stuck in the garage doing what amounts to tuning-drudgery, the boring stuff.
So, how about a series of short videos of a boring cold startup test? (I've got a lot of space on my Photobucket account so I'm not being shy about shooting and posting video. As I've mentioned before, I'm just the sort of techno-gearhead-nerd who finds all of this very interesting).
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2011_zps5qrankya.mp4.html?sort=3&o=2 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2011_zps5qrankya.mp4.html?sort=3&o=2)
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2012_zpshpivybwa.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2012_zpshpivybwa.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1)
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Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2013_zpsuk5relcj.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2013_zpsuk5relcj.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
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The more video's the better, in my opinion :thumb:
Just some things I noticed from video's: (you probably know this but still).
- 12.00V is pretty low for a battery.
- What makes you say it needs more air at start? The more choke I use at start, the higher the RPM gets to initially. It shoots right up to 2000rpm. Without choke, it starts like how it was on your video.
- Are you running without exhaust silencer? It sounds like at that at low rpm or like you have a leak on the exhaust.
- Why was it increasing RPM because the coolant was hot? Doesn't make sense to me.
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The more video's the better, in my opinion :thumb:
Thanks, I appreciate your vote in favor of more videos (and photos).
Just some things I noticed from video's: (you probably know this but still).
- 12.00V is pretty low for a battery.
Yes, you're right, the battery is probably nearing the end of its useful lifespan. The battery came with the bike when I bought it and like the rest of the bike the battery's history is unknown to me. I'm trying my best to preserve this battery well enough to get through the building and testing phase of the project, I don't know if you noticed but I've been using a large farm-tractor battery and jumper cables to supplement the Bandit's battery for stationary testing. Doing this has allowed me to do the type of testing that requires multiple extended cranking/starting-stopping of the Bandit's engine without flatting the Bandit's battery. When the work is all done and the project is 99% complete I'll treat the Bandit 400 to a nice new battery.
- What makes you say it needs more air at start? The more choke I use at start, the higher the RPM gets to initially. It shoots right up to 2000rpm. Without choke, it starts like how it was on your video.
It sounds like you might not be totally familiar with the layout of the Mikuni BST33 slingshot carburetor, especially its Choke circuit. The BST33 carb mixes BOTH air and fuel in its choke circuit. Let me walk you through the choke circuit of a stock, original Mikuni BST32 (which is exactly the same as the BST33 except for the size of its bore)...
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- Are you running without exhaust silencer? It sounds like at that at low rpm or like you have a leak on the exhaust.
My Bandit's exhaust system is an aftermarket Yoshimura "4 into 2 into 1" style header and the exhaust canister is also a Yoshimura. The canister is free-flowing, it doesn't have an add-on silencer. The Yoshimura header is of the type designed to maximize scavenging/flow at mid-range power/torque, in its first two "Y"s it combines cylinders #1 and #4 together and cylinders #2 and #3 together. Then it combines these two at its second "Y".
I had the header sand-blasted and ceramic coated so it looks nice but the canister is still in its original (to me) state which is very dented and scraped up. There are no leaks in the system. If the exhaust note sounds odd on the video I'd guess it's because the sound is bounding around in my small garage.
- Why was it increasing RPM because the coolant was hot? Doesn't make sense to me.
Okay, maybe my word choice on the video was a bit confusing. When I say, "because the coolant temperature is rising" on the video I'm really thinking, "because the temperature of the metal, plastic and rubber in the Bandit's intake tract is rising". (Obviously there are other parameters to consider; for example, the temperature of the oil affects how it flows. Cold oil is a drag on the system that has to be compensated for.)
Starting an engine from dead cold is a complex, dynamic situation.
When you start up from dead cold the metal and any other substances, like plastic or rubber used in the walls of the intake tract (carbs, connector boots and the cylinder head) are cold and the intake fuel vapor readily adheres to them. Because of this the cold startup cycle (from dead-cold to warmed up to normal operating temperature) is a highly dynamic, constantly changing set of parameters.
In modern fuel injection systems the engineers who design them actually take into account the amount of fuel that can/will adhere to the metal in the intake tract. They take everything into account: the temperature, the amount of metal, the metal's thermal characteristics, the amount of fuel being injected, the volume of air being moved. And they come up with a formula that contains variables that account for both "fuel that adheres to walls" and "fuel that is sucked from walls".
This necessitates a very carefully choreographed fueling scheme to achieve smooth RPM control during a fuel injected startup. When the enormous computational ability of a human brain is placed in charge of a Choke lever during cold startup this complexity is easily handled, almost as an afterthought. But when you're programming a computer to do it you have to be very elementary about it. Coolant temperature is the parameter we use to estimate the heat-state of the intake tract.
Obviously, as the temperature rises these two variables ("adheres to walls" and "sucked from walls") are in a constant state of change which means the air/fuel ratio is also going to constantly change. In the early part of the start, when things are at their coldest the "adheres to walls" factor is the biggest, but as the temperature of the intake tract rises toward normal operating temperature the "sucked from walls" factor becomes the biggest factor.
When normal sustained operating temperature is reached the two reach and maintain an almost balanced state, except during rapid throttle changes.
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Here is another vote for pictures/video/updates. Love it all.
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I had a pretty tough day in the garage.
Over the last 3 days I've begun taking the Bandit out for test rides. It wasn't going well at all. The engine wouldn't rev past 6,000 RPM.
After the first test ride I thought it was a mistake I'd made with setting the rev limiter in TunerStudio, but after I fixed the mistake the problem still remained.
At 6,000 RPM the Microsquirt ECU was losing "Sync". Losing Sync means the stream of inputs that the Microsquirt ECU was getting from the pulse generator (the output from the VR sensor and trigger wheel) were not matching with the ignition trigger definition parameters that I had entered. If the Microsquirt cannot continuously verify the engine's crankshaft position it "loses sync" and the engine feels like you're hitting a rev limiter.
Today I went to the MSExtra website forum and asked for help. I was pretty lost but there are some very knowledgable guys over there and they looked at my datalogs and gave me some very helpful thoughts and advice.
If you're interested in having a look at the neediness and insecurity that lurks behind my normal facade of intelligence and capability, here's a link to the forum thread that I started this morning: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=56874 (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=56874).
In just a page and a half of forum posting I went from hopelessly lost to problem solved!
Now the Bandit revs like it should. I hope to have a video of it soon.
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K, that's some pretty cool stuff. Nice work!
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Here's a very short video I'm calling "The Sound of Failure"...
Video:http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2014_zpsfmlvosyz.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2014_zpsfmlvosyz.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
This is a short bit of video from the second day of test riding. At this point the Bandit still wouldn't rev beyond about 6,000 RPM. I was pretty down about the situation at the time, but now that I've solved the problem I'm feeling much better about how bad the Bandit was running in this clip. And it was bad, the bike even quits completely at the end. I had to coast it into a U-Store-It parking lot.
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More video? Yes... more video.
Today's theme is "The sound of something approaching or at least moving toward success"
Just a couple of video clips from today's ride.
Now that the Microsquirt is getting perfect signals from the pulse generator (VR sensor and trigger wheel) the Bandit is running great.
Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2015_zpsrke4xtk6.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2015_zpsrke4xtk6.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1)
Video: http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2016_zpsq4uwzbsv.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0 (http://s679.photobucket.com/user/EWflyer/media/GSF400%20vid%2016_zpsq4uwzbsv.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0)
I'm riding the Bandit carefully because the fueling table is still rough and there are spots where it over-fuels and spots where it under-fuels. During this ride I had the laptop computer in the Bandit's tailbag. The laptop was running TunerStudio and I had the TuneAnalyze Live function turned on. The TuneAnalyze Live function actually tunes the fueling table while you ride the motorcycle.
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There was something else wrong with the pulse signal? (apart from it being too wide?)
Still sounds like you don't have an exhaust muffler :yikes:
Did you go full throttle in the 2nd video?
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Cracking Job Greg, really enjoying this :clap:
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There was something else wrong with the pulse signal? (apart from it being too wide?)
Yes, there was a second problem with the pulse signal. I had it wired up wrong. The Variable Reluctance (VR) sensor has two wires and I accidentally got them hooked up to the Microsquirt backwards. When a VR is wired backwards it's pretty hard to tell until you start revving the engine up. At idle or just above idle a backwards wired VR sensor looks almost normal.
So when I started going out on test rides I found that the Bandit couldn't rev past 6,000 RPM.
Fixing the problem was very easy, all I had to do was disconnect the plastic wiring connector plug on the VR line from the left engine cover and reverse the pins, then plug it back in.
Then I had to re-accomplish the basic timing setting with the timing strobe light. Just a 30 minute job all together. And as you can tell from the videos, the Bandit runs great now.
Still sounds like you don't have an exhaust muffler :yikes:
Yeah, it's pretty loud. The baffling material inside the Yoshimura exhaust canister is probably well past its useful lifespan.
Another reason the videos sound like they do is I'm using a plug-in microphone that is of a much higher quality than the basic microphone on the video camera. I've been positioning the microphone at the tail end of the Bandit, just behind the tailbag that holds the laptop computer.
Did you go full throttle in the 2nd video?
No, just to about 80-85% of throttle. The highest RPM on the most recent video is just over 11,000.
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Amazing videos :thumb:
Is it me or did you run the Bandit quite slow? Even when you accelerate hard, the motorcycle seems so slow on the video :-(
Maybe that is just an impression. ..
Anyway, sounds louder than my stock stainless steel exhaust, even if I understood the microphone is near the exhaust. Sounds also like the engine is running great.
Good job :congrats:
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Hello again Greg!
I would like to ask you just for reference and a more complete thread (although i don't know how much more complete it can be, you have nailed this from the beginning :thumb:)
what addition would you do to your setup in case of a V-engine powered Bandit?
:congrats: for the excellent build...
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Is it me or did you run the Bandit quite slow? Even when you accelerate hard, the motorcycle seems so slow on the video :-(
Maybe that is just an impression. ..
You're right, I was moving the throttle in a relatively slow, progressive manner rather than "snapping" it open. And I was doing the accelerations in the video in 2nd, 3rd and a bit of 4th gear. The highest speed I saw during the accelerations in the video was 70 MPH (112 KPH).
I'm riding the Bandit this way due to the current rough state of its Fueling Table. I built up the Fueling Table or VE (Volumetric Efficiency) table for the Bandit based on nothing more than "best guess" information. Because of this the table has "rough spots" (too lean or too rich) that need to be polished smooth and perfected before I can ride the Bandit with absolute freedom and confidence that it won't suddenly go super-lean or way over-rich.
It's going to take a good amount of riding the Bandit around with the laptop computer hooked up to the Microsquirt to correct the fueling table into perfect condition. The laptop computer will be in the Bandit's tailbag, connected to the Microsquirt. The laptop will be running the Tune Analyze Live function of the TunerStudio software so it can continuously examine and correct the fueling table based on moment-by-moment feedback from the exhaust O2 sensor.
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Greg,
why arent you thinking about a raspberry PI? its basically a little laptop. Put it inside an waterproof box, after a ride, just hook up a keyboard and a hdmi screen, everything works from a sd card and runs on linux. u can even add a wifi module, what gives u a opportunity to upload that info to your laptop without hooking it up.
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Greg,
why arent you thinking about a raspberry PI? its basically a little laptop. Put it inside an waterproof box, after a ride, just hook up a keyboard and a hdmi screen, everything works from a sd card and runs on linux. u can even add a wifi module, what gives u a opportunity to upload that info to your laptop without hooking it up.
Tônis,
You're way out beyond my level of computer awareness. I'm not even very interested in computer tech. I know just enough to get the job done. I think that the TunerStudio software only runs on a Windows operating system, so I'll just keep on using my old Lenovo laptop for tuning purposes.
Also, I put the carb needles (and the little clips) in the mail to you yesterday.
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Actually tunerstudio would run on linux. It was just an suggestion for making your life easier :)
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Amazing videos :thumb:
Is it me or did you run the Bandit quite slow? Even when you accelerate hard, the motorcycle seems so slow on the video :-(
Maybe that is just an impression. ..
Anyway, sounds louder than my stock stainless steel exhaust, even if I understood the microphone is near the exhaust. Sounds also like the engine is running great.
Good job :congrats:
That's what i thought.. that's why I asked whether he was going full throttle.
Curious to see a 100% throttle.. my 400 climbs through the revs way faster.
Greg,
why arent you thinking about a raspberry PI? its basically a little laptop. Put it inside an waterproof box, after a ride, just hook up a keyboard and a hdmi screen, everything works from a sd card and runs on linux. u can even add a wifi module, what gives u a opportunity to upload that info to your laptop without hooking it up.
Tônis,
You're way out beyond my level of computer awareness. I'm not even very interested in computer tech. I know just enough to get the job done. I think that the TunerStudio software only runs on a Windows operating system, so I'll just keep on using my old Lenovo laptop for tuning purposes.
Also, I put the carb needles (and the little clips) in the mail to you yesterday.
Trust me, when you can fiddle with microsquirt and timing like I've seen in this topic, setting up a raspberry pi would be a piece of cake (pun intented).
I would certainly consider it.
It might even be an idea to hook it up to your battery and permanently run the auto-mixture program.
Not sure if this is even necessary though....doesn't the microsquirt do this automatically based on the A/F sensor?
If so, what's the difference between the auto-program and the microsquirt using A/F information to adjust?
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Great work mate.
Is the bike finished and running yet.
If you want to convert the headlight to switch on and off I could send you a l/h switch unit over from the UK.
If you feel that the battery being in the rear is not helping handling there's always the option of converting to a light weight lithium type, they are less than half the weight of the standard battery and turn the engine better on start up.
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Finally back in the garage today!!!
Actually, I spent yesterday (Sunday) in the garage, working on the Bandit and today I road it around for an hour.
I haven't touched my Bandit project bike since December, except for hooking up the battery tender a couple of times. Why the long break? I chose to work a lot during the last 6 months and spending time in the garage, while very enjoyable, is a very low priority so it's one of the first things I'll quit doing when I need to make time for other activities.
After allowing the bike to sit for 6 months it started up on the first press of the starter button. This is one of the nicest things about a fuel injection system.
Yesterday I spent the afternoon disassembling and re-plumbing part of the fuel system. I just wasn't satisfied with my original solution for the portion of the fuel system that runs from the fuel tank to the fuel pump and then back to the fuel tank.
The new re-plumbed version is a much shorter, more protected and logical route, both for outbound and return fuel flow.
The new routing also allowed me to locate the feed-flow and return-flow fuel line quick-disconnects in hidden but accessible places. These quick-disconnects allow for very easy removal of the fuel tank without having any fuel spills or drips because they're spring-loaded to close off when disconnected.
Today (Monday) I road the Bandit for about an hour. The purpose of this ride was to allow the TunerStudio software run its Auto-tune function to fine-tune the fueling table (a 16X16 cell array that uses Intake Vacuum as the X axis and RPM as the Y axis). This software running on my laptop computer which is in a tail-bag on the Bandit. The laptop is connected to the Bandit's Microsquirt ECU by a USB cable.
I didn't get as much tuning done as I'd hoped to. I discovered that when I hit bigger bumps on the road the USB adaptor would jiggle in the laptop's USB port and this would cause the laptop to lose connection with the ECU.
This was totally my fault for being lazy. In the past I've always put a piece of tape around the USB adaptor, then secured it to the laptop. But I didn't do it today.
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There's a question (or opinion request) for the B4 forum members in this post:
But first, some setup of the situation...
I've been out riding again today on my fuel injection project Bandit 400. I'm logging some miles with the laptop hooked up to the ECU so the TunerStudio software can perform its Auto-tuning magic on the fueling Volumetric Efficiency table (after every 10 or 15 minutes of riding I pull over and tell the laptop to update the ECU, then back to riding).
I have to say I'm still very new to the Bandit 400 experience. I'm sure that almost every single one of you reading this thread-post has a bunch more B4 seat-time than I do.
So far I'm enjoying the nature/feel of the Bandit's performance envelope.
I'd never even ridden a B4 when I decided I wanted one. The decision to get a B4 was based on my experience with my Kawasaki EX250. I figured they would be similar rides: relatively low horsepower, high revs with lots of engagement and action without the warp-speed consequences of a 600cc or 1000cc bike. I like this type of riding and I what I was looking for was an Inline-4 engined version of the EX250.
After I searched for and purchased the bike I only road it 3 times before taking it into the garage for refurbishment and my fuel injection project.
So now I'm only just beginning to get the feel of riding the B4 and I'm discovering that the Bandit 400 is a bit more "Jekyll and Hyde" than my Kawasaki EX250. The B4's performance potential is even more rev-dependent than the EX250!
If you want real, hard acceleration from the B4 you have to take it above 8,000 and keep it there. 8,000 to 12,500 is were everything happens, anything below 8,000 is very mellow feeling.
Question/Opinion time: Is what I'm feeling a true representation of the B4?
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Hi greg. Mostly, what you described is true. The bike has two faces. One, acting between 3000 - 6000/8000 RPM (depends on jetting) behaves as polite, kind, calm commuter with slowly increasing power linearly increasing and being easy controllable by your right hand. After going over 8000 RPM the bikes can breathe in better (standard 16V engine nature) and large amount of horsepower suddenly appear kicking you much more even if you don't turn give it more gas. The power should be available well till 12000 RPM.
What I personally like is that the engine is able to work up from 3000 RPM when riding on level surface without weird noise or uneven engine operation. Going uphill requires only slightly more revs. Usually 4000 RPM is enough.
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I agree with the above.
However I do want to add this: the 400 really likes to run rich, especially mid-rpm.
On stock setup this was the characteristic:
Idle-4k RPM: very smooth, no bogging, pulls but nothing major.
4k-6k RPM: noticeable torque dip
6k-8k RPM: dip is gone torque is increasing
8k-12k RPM: it goes
12k-13.5k: torque is decreasing
So what I've found in owning it 5 years, trying out setups, I'm now running 110 main with stock setup. If I want max performance I put the needles +1 rich as well. I only have a slip-on exhaust:
Idle-4k RPM: very smooth, no bogging, pulls but nothing major
4k-10k RPM: now it starts increasing torque right from 4000rpm!! The 6k-8k part has basically expanded to 4k-10k, increasing linearly.
10k-13.5k: it goes. Noticeably more punch than stock 8k-12k pull. Top speed increased from 185km/h to 210km/h on the speedo.
At the moment I have the needles in the middle - for fuel consumption - because I'm using the bandit to go to work at the moment.
In this setup (mid needle, 110 main) it has better fuel consumption than my stock setup (100 main, needle+1 to remove 4k torque dip).
With 110 main the torque dip is almost gone, and still has the better top end, while getting 50 MPG (1/21).
Ok I wrote way too much. If I were you I would try experimenting with giving it more fuel in the mid and top end and see what happens.
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Greg have you measured (or estimated) your fuel consumption?
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Greg have you measured (or estimated) your fuel consumption?
First, a direct, short, to-the-point answer for you NSC: So far the overall fuel consumption (mileage, MPGs) of my Fuel Injection Project Bandit 400 seems to be about the same as a stock Bandit 400.
That's it, pretty much the same... (short answer).
But with me there's always a long version of the answer, so if you're willing to hang in there and read some more, here's what I think I'm achieving with the fuel injection conversion:
The basic truth about any normally-aspirated, internal combustion engine is that it's nothing more than an Air Pump. That's it, the bottom line is "how much air can this engine process?". The basic variables in the equation are, of course, displacement and RPMs.
These two items haven't changed a bit on my Fuel Injection Project Bandit 400. In this respect it is "Bone Stock".
The value (the improvement) provided by my fuel injection conversion is very specific to the things that Squishy was talking about in his most recent post above ^^^ this one.
With the fuel injection system I can very accurately tune the Air-to-Fuel ratio across the entire operating envelope of the engine. For example: the "likes to run rich" statement that Squishy makes is true for the Bandit 400 because it's true for every internal combustion engine. Although, what people really mean when they say "likes to run rich" is that the Air-to-Fuel ratio at which you get "best horsepower/torque" is on the "rich" side of the Stoichiometric ratio which is 14.7 to 1 Air-to-Fuel.
If you want to make the "best horsepower" or "best torque" in a gasoline engine you have to hit a very specific Air-to-Fuel ratio.
For "best horsepower" you want about a 12.5 to 1 Air-to-Fuel ratio.
For "best torque" you want about a 13.1 to 1 Air-to-Fuel ratio.
It's possible to achieve something close to these ratios with "seat of the pants" carb tuning, if you really know what you're doing but it's not easy or obvious. With my fuel injection system I can absolutely verify, by way of data-logging the feedback from my Bandit's wide band oxygen sensor during test rides, that I'm achieving the proper and correct Air-to-Fuel ratios.
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True. However there's always the choice between fuel consumption, emissions and power.
I'm not sure how your "auto-tune" is programmed, but perhaps it's a setting for "50-50" rather than full power...
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I'm not sure how your "auto-tune" is programmed, but perhaps it's a setting for "50-50" rather than full power...
What I was trying to say is that "average for a Bandit 400" fuel economy is exactly what I was expecting to get from my F.I. Bandit.
The carb Bandit 400 is tuned to make horsepower, with little concern for mileage. And that's exactly how I'm tuning my F.I. Bandit.
There are many small points within the Bandit's operating envelope where my F.I. system is an improvement over carbs. But they occur in the "marginal" areas of operation, the F.I. delivers many moments of small improvement at many data-point throughout the envelope.
I still have a good bit of work to do in the process of developing a fully polished engine tune for my F.I. Bandit.
But there's no mystery or unknowns or "black magic" in this process, every single parameter over then entire operating envelope of the Bandit's engine can be examined and fine-tuned with the TunerStudio software program I'm running on my laptop.
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Greg i am always willing to read (and i already have read) all the thread 3-4 times already trying to fit the puzzle pieces in my mind.
Sorry if my questions sound noobish :roll:
having said that:
You mentioned there are specific A/F ratios for different purposes(which i know from my limited and general mechanical knowledge)
is it possible to alter A/F ratios on-the-fly with microsquirt? Something like "presets"?
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You mentioned there are specific A/F ratios for different purposes(which i know from my limited and general mechanical knowledge)
is it possible to alter A/F ratios on-the-fly with microsquirt? Something like "presets"?
Yes, the do-it-yourself fuel injection hobby is all about the ability to hit specific A/F ratios.
The TunerStudio software I'm using allows me to use a 16X16 array for basic fueling. That's 256 data-points for Air/Fuel ratio. These 256 points are spread across the engine's operating envelope based on Engine Vacuum (the "Y" axis of the array) and RPM (the "X" axis of the array).
But that's just the beginning of the complexity of fueling the bike.
This basic array (called the "VE table", with "VE" meaning Volumetric Efficiency) is augmented and "trimmed" on-the-fly with addition or subtraction of fuel based on things like Coolant Temperature, Rate of Throttle Movement, Feedback from the Wide Band Oxygen Sensor, Barometric Pressure, Electrical System Voltage and more.
And on top of that I'm using the MicroSquirt's ability to implement full Ignition Control on the Bandit, by way of another array which is matched up with the VE table fueling array. This means my Bandit now has thoroughly modern "active" control of timing advance rather than a simple, static 2-dimensional timing curve (which by definition has to be a compromise)
(an aside: you may know that some of the more advanced carb bikes of the '80s and '90s had a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) factory installed. This TPS was the first step toward today's modern computerized ignition control because it fed into the bike's ignition control box to augment the simple, static 2-dimensional curve with throttle Rate-of-Change information)
The ignition timing of my Bandit is now properly/precisely paired to the Air/Fuel ratio the engine is currently experiencing. This is advantageous because lean Air/Fuel ratios burn more slowly (so you need more timing advance) and rich Air/Fuel ratios burn more quickly (so you need less timing advance). This is especially important in situations where the rider quickly "roll on" throttle, which immediately takes the engine to a rich mixture.
The overall aim of ignition timing is to properly time the "moment of maximum cylinder pressure" so that it occurs at the point in the engine cycle (cylinder movement just past top-dead-center) where it will deliver the maximum horsepower (while avoiding "knock").
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Interesting part for me is the fuel map dimensions. 16x16 seem to be enough for Bandit RPM and load range. I wonder if 16x16 map would be fine enough to drive programmable ignitor unit or some tweaks like logarithmic coordinates has to be used due to high variability of ignition timing in low RPM range.
Not for Bandit itself but maybe one day I'll hack programmable ignitor for my other vehicle and ignition timing map size is my only concern so far.
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Interesting part for me is the fuel map dimensions. 16x16 seem to be enough for Bandit RPM and load range.
Actually, the want/need for more resolution is addressed.
The software (TunerStudio) and firmware (MSExtra) package allows for a "Table Switching" feature to be implemented. This means if you want/need more resolution than what's offered by just a single 16X16 array you can choose to run 2 16X16 arrays. You simply enable Table Switching in the basic parameters and then expand your "Y" axis (Intake Vacuum) out over the two separate arrays.
Implementing Table Switching gives you a little less than double the "Y" axis resolution of a single 16X16 array.
You can do this for both fueling and ignition advance.
I've never used this on either of my F.I. motorcycle projects. I feel that they run well enough on one 16X16 table.
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Finally got back into the garage this week (my last post to this thread was way back in late June)
It was a long summer/fall that included a long vacation, life issues and work (lots of work). These things kept me out of the garage and I just couldn't find time for motorcycles.
This week's garage time wasn't devoted to the GSF400. Instead, the GSF400 had to sit and watch while I worked on the Kawasaki EX250 (my first fuel injection project bike). The EX250's odometer was telling me it was time for a valve adjustment and an oil change.
It felt good to work on a motorcycle again.
The EX250 is only a 2 cylinder motorcycle so there's just 8 valves to check and adjust. It turned out that all of the EX250's exhaust valves were on the tight side of the specified range and half of the intake valves were on the tight side.
Got the job done and everything buttoned back up, took it for a ride, success! The engine feels great, I think I got the adjustment just right.
Now that the EX250 is squared away I feel warmed up and ready to give the GSF400 the same treatment: It's valve adjustment time.
Doing a valve adjustment on the GSF400 is going to be interesting because this will be the first time I've opened up the engine internals.
My GSF's engine starts well and runs well which suggests it's a healthy unit but I don't know much about the bike's history. I know that it went through at least three owners before me. Of those prior owners the only one I've talked to was the last in line and he didn't have the bike in his possession for very long. So I really have no idea whether the periodic engine maintenance was performed properly and on schedule.
I'm hoping I don't find anything bad hiding under the valve cover.
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This is a great project!
The only issue you are going to have with the GSF's valve clearances is space, there isn't much of it. If all is currently sounding good I doubt you are going to find any surprises.
One thing you could do is measure the cam chain while you are busy, it may be worn.
Good luck :thumb:
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first time i was doing that job it took me nearly 6,5 hours since removing tank til putting it back. i am not newbie to valve clearances, several of my cars do have same principle of valve clearance setting. the strip job took me that long because of several parts being removed for the first time (either by me or at all).
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Valve clearance is pretty straight forward on the 400. The only thing I dislike is that you have to drain the coolant and remove the thermostat housing every time :banghead:
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I 100% agree with Squishy. Valve clearance on B400 is definitely no rocket science ;-)
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5.5 hours out of 6.5 hours took me to disassemble and then re-assemble my bandit without losing anything. i actually don't remember what was the step which took me the most time. maybe draining the bike without losing coolant as I didn't have spare.
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I agree, adjusting the valves on the GSF400 is easier than my EX250. Access to the valves is better, you can clearly see what you're doing. I really enjoyed the process of setting the Bandit's valves.
When I started work I accidentally had the Service Manual open to the 1991-1992 model valve clearance specification, because the '91-'92 specs are printed right in Chapter 2 "Periodic Maintenance and Tune-Up Procedures". After working on the first couple of valves I suddenly remembered that I should look in the back of the Service Manual, where the '93 "GSF400P" Service Manual Supplement is located, to find the '93 specification.
'91-'92 Spec: IN-.10mm-.15mm, EX-.15mm-.20mm
'93 Spec: IN-.13mm-.18mm, EX-.20mm-.25mm
(quite a difference. the '93 makes less horsepower, right? 54hp vs 59hp I think?)
The difficult part, as people have mentioned, is getting everything removed; fuel tank, coolant, radiator, cooling plumbing, thermostat housing, valve cover. My Bandit is worse to disassemble because there's a lot of extra wiring that passes over the top of the valve cover.
While I had the valve cover off I did a few other things:
1. inspected and measured the Cam Chain (across multiple pitches of 20). The service limit is 143mm for any 20 pitch length of it. I came up with right at 141mm on every measurement.
2. carried out the "Cylinder Head Nuts and Exhaust Pipe Bolts" loosening and re-torquing procedure (recommend every 6000Km in Chapter 2 of the Service Manual).
3. replaced all of the old gaskets (valve cover gasket, valve cover bolt gaskets, valve cover breather o-rings and gasket) with new ones.
4. Inspected the Spark Plugs, all four plugs looked great, nothing abnormal in color or wear, no electrode erosion.
I was happy to find that everything in the valve train looks great. Very little sign of wear, nothing abnormal. It seems that this engine has never been allowed to run low on oil.
I believe a large part of the credit for this healthy engine goes to the large oil capacity of the GSF400. 3.2 liters (total capacity) for a 400cc engine? That's a lot of oil for such a small motor. Also, I'm very impressed with the GSF400's oil system, which is very advanced for a 1990 Sport-level motorcycle engine.
Have you ever looked at the oil delivery schematic in the Service Manual? It's a thing of beauty!!
(There's even an oil jet squirting onto the underside of each piston... Wow, just wow.)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/7c4bd298-8c9a-46ab-81ce-a2c662dd0936_zpslosd572w.png)
I ended up spending the whole day in the garage, enjoying the work, appreciating the engineering/design of the engine. It was dark when I finally put the bike back together.
Rode it this morning, everything's perfect. Very Happy.
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Well done! Very satisfying when you do everything and and it works great.
Yes the 93 makes less power with different camshaft and valve clearance. But make sure you actually have a 93 model and not just a 92 model registered in 93. Mine says 92 but is actually a 91 model.
Btw you don't need to remove the radiator you can just remove the top bolt and let it hang. You then have enough room to remove the valve cover.
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But make sure you actually have a 93 model and not just a 92 model registered in 93. Mine says 92 but is actually a 91 model.
Yes, a while back I confirmed that the engine is definitely a 1993.
The things that confirm this are:
The VIN number on my Bandit's frame has a "P" in the 10th position, which is the Year Code position (the '91s have an "M" and the '92s have an "N").
Of course, that VIN information doesn't absolutely mean that my Bandit has the 1993 engine installed. As you pointed out, a 1993 GSF400 could possibly have a 1992 engine in it. Also, one of the 3 prior owners of my Bandit could have swapped engines for some reason.
So, I dug further and discovered that (according to Suzuki records) 1993 GSF400's with VIN numbers ending with the digits (starting from the 11th position) "2100001" and onward definitely have the 1993 engine installed. My VIN ends with "2100038" (which apparently makes it the 38th 1993 GSF400 built with a 1993 engine).
Digging further... I needed a way to confirm that the engine itself was a 1993. I eventually found that the 1993 engines had a different Trigger Wheel and a different CDI. While the 1993 CDI box looks externally identical to the '91 and '92 CDI boxes and it has the same two plugs, the 1993's internal CDI circuitry is different and the wiring into its wiring harness plugs (the "pin out") is slightly different.
My engine has the 1993 Trigger Wheel:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0231_zpsb2e82977.jpg)
For comparison, the 1991 and 1992 Trigger Wheel looked like this:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0230_zpsd9e179f3.jpg)
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Bandit cooling system is one step in long Suzuki air/oil-cooled engines (despite the fact that cylinder head and upper part of cylinders is cooled by water) evolution. Bottom of engine including pistons is cooled by squirting oil (and center is air-cooled - ribs are not for aestetics only). This is what SACS stands for in engine specs. Oil squirting the bottom of pistons was exactly the way how Suzuki was able to make (IIRC first ever) air-cooled motorcycle with more than 70HP (kW?) back in late 70's. Previous attempts were unreliable.
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Found some time to get back into the garage. November weather was very nice here in Spokane, WA. Warm enough to ride comfortably and very little rain (no snow at all).
One task I had planned was: Changing the contour/profile of the rear portion of the Bandit's seat.
From the beginning of this project I've planned to install a Solo Cowl in place of the bike's passenger seat. This is something that I have to do because I've relocated the bike's battery into the passenger seat area to make room for the FI system's Fuel Pump. The battery is now located in the space where the passenger seat used to be, plus a whole bunch of other Fuel Injection System electrical and control components are now there too.
When I started looking at the original B4 rider's seat profile I didn't like the way the rear end of it pitches upward. I wanted a rider seat that stays flat until it meets the Solo Cowl (like the seats on later Suzuki models like the GSX-R600). I plan for the front end of the Solo Cowl to have a small pad mounted to it (this will substitute for the rear end pitch-up of original rider's seat).
I purchased a "lightly used" GSX-R600 seat off of Ebay. These are plentiful and cheap on Ebay. By disassembling this I got the hard plastic seat-pan and the contoured foam seating material.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1081_zps7kzb6flq.jpg)
To get a nice, new-looking seating surface for this project I purchased a new GSX-R600 seat cover from Luimoto in Vancouver B.C.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1084_zpsha6uijmu.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1086_zps475sobjv.jpg)
I cut down the rear end of the original Bandit seat, then I cut off the front end of the GSX-R600 seat. I pop-riveted the two pieces together.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1083_zps570l5p2k.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1078_zps60zqvqaj.jpg)
Next I had to make a couple of cut-and-glue changes to the GSX-R600 seat foam to make it conform to the front end of the Bandit seat-pan. Then I covered the whole assembly with the new Luimoto GSX-R600 seat cover.
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1091_zpsnv8fn26g.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1090_zpshkvd1jdh.jpg)
So here's what the B4 looks like now:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1092_zpss4qek7sb.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1093_zpsmhwcvpvg.jpg)
(In these last two pictures it's important to know that the B4 is up on a rear-stand so it looks like the seat is sloped uncomfortably downward as it goes forward, which it does not do.)
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So what are you going to do about the hole/space behind the seat?
Btw that solo cowl is huge :yikes:
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But... now it's December and we've got snow and ice on the roads! Noooooooo!
The fun is over.
I guess be any more test-riding and tuning the B4 for a while.
Things were going really well with my Fuel Injection system tuning efforts. The most important item I was making progress on is the ignition timing table. When I first defined my project's ignition spark advance table I put in very conservative values. This was just a safety-oriented move, intended to keep the list of "things that could go wrong" as short as possible.
Once I got the fueling table smoothed and crafted to a point where it didn't have any sudden lean or over-rich problems it was time to start moving the spark advance up to where the engine would make its specified horsepower. The danger is moving the spark advance too far which could cause detonation/knock. This could ruin the engine.
There's no easy way to determine the exact degree of ignition spark advance to use. Instead it's all "rule of thumb", "rider's seat of the pants" and researching to find available ignition system specifications from other (similar) motorcycles. All this has lead me to set the maximum advance at 41 degrees BTDC.
The engine now feels very willing and the revs climb quickly during acceleration.
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Can't you install a knock-sensor? :trustme:
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So what are you going to do about the hole/space behind the seat?
Btw that solo cowl is huge :yikes:
To take up the space around the rear sides of the new seat profile I'm going to build an add-on to the rear of the seat itself. The add-on will be made from part of the original rear end of the B4 seat-pan that I cut off while making this new seat.
I'll cover it with foam and seat material to create an effective gap coverage.
Btw that solo cowl is huge :yikes:
Well then, you should know that the Solo Cowl you're seeing in these pictures isn't my creation. It is a Gimble product. And the Gimble Bandit 400 Solo Cowl was a direct copy of the discontinued OEM Suzuki Solo Cowl.
Or... if you're simply saying that your personal impression of the Solo Cowl installed on the B4 is that it makes the rear end of the bike look "big" or "heavy" that's fine with me.
I agree that it has that feel to it when viewed from the side. But I like it because I think it has a bit of the "GSX-R Slabby" look, a bit of that old-school Suzuki mojo.
Example:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Bandit400SeatCowlpic1_zpsbb610332.jpg)
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Way to stay with a difficult and technical build!
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As my B4 project bike has moved into its final stretch, with lots of riding to work its tune into shape, I've grown to hate the mirrors that one of the prior owners installed on it.
These mirrors are butt-ugly pieces of hideous black plastic, but that's not the worst part. These crappy mirrors have a very short reach to their stems which means I can hardly see anything behind me. All I can see is my own elbows. To see anything behind me I have to move my head while simultaneously pulling my elbow in as far as possible.
Here's what the mirrors looked like on my B4 when I brought it home:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF0034_zpsf6caad0f.jpg)
So I searched around on Ebay and found a nice set of OEM mirrors (from a 1992 GSF400):
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1112_zpseexyq3t0.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1110_zpstw7wjmwu.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/DSCF1117_zps51rsng7l.jpg)
Much better now, being able to easily see behind with just a glance.
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Spent some time in the garage today, filmed a Cold Start as a bit of documentation of the Fuel Injection project.
Cold day in Spokane, about 32 degrees and it snowed a bit last night.
(To those who are easily bored: consider yourself forewarned so you won't complain about wasting 11 minutes of your life watching a motorcycle warm up)
At this point in the project I've tuned the parameters in my B4's Microsquirt ECU to the point were it will start from cold with just a push of the starter button. The Microsquirt applies adjustments to fueling and ignition advance derived from several temperature-dependent tables: Priming Pulse, Cranking Pulse, After Start Enrichment, After Start Enrichment Taper, Warm-Up Enrichment, Cold Ignition Advance.
The Microsquirt will initially hold the idle RPMs at about 1,500 to 1,600 then as the coolant begins to warm up it lowers the idle to approximately 1,300 and keeps it there.
http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20cold%20start%20Dec%202015_zps4iadbuhv.mp4 (http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20cold%20start%20Dec%202015_zps4iadbuhv.mp4)
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Thanks a lot Greg for sharing your experience and your knowledge. This seems like a success to me too. And you bike is really nice. :thanks:
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the bike looks nice and the rebuild looks very profesionally done too. damn that bike has more gentle idle during warming up than mine when warmed up completely. i have to re-do carb balance :S
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Thanks for the complements on the bike's appearance. I appreciate it.
You know how it goes with this sort of thing, I know were all the flaws and little failures are so I always see them when I look at the bike. But it's okay because I'm much more into the technical side than the appearance side. I decided at the outset of this project to only do enough cosmetic work to achieve a "20-20" bike (it looks great from 20 feet away as it goes by at 20 MPH).
That's enough to make me happy.
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Back in the garage today, working on a few things and while I had the spark plugs out of the bike I decided to put them under my (nerdy, cheap Chinese techno-trash) USB microscope at about 50X magnification.
Cylinder #1
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_131437202_zpsrnqiu2fy.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_131706202_zpstono6icw.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_125515202_zpsp1e3kd3q.jpg)
Cylinder #2
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_133103202_zpskhaugxfp.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_132904202_zpsrikeufkw.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_125741202_zpsicvgdnaz.jpg)
Cylinder #3
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_130809202_zpsbzww6pby.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_132349202_zpsyrrdrvvv.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_125849202_zpsf86y2wl3.jpg)
Cylinder #4
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_133412202_zps8dg8avne.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_132125202_zpsbfe1qdjx.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Snapshot_20151219_133938202_zpselsztfex.jpg)
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how many miles do they have? the look pretty clean.
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They have between 500 and 600 miles on them. That's the total distance I've ridden the bike since getting it up and running as a fuel injected project.
Because I had them out of the bike for a compression test I figured why not take a close look and document their condition (for future reference).
I think the #1 cylinder plug is the dirtiest looking of the group, but I agree with you that they all look pretty good.
And I might as well admit that I also saw an opportunity to bring out my USB microscope (cheap, fun, nerdy Chinese techno-trash). The older I get the more I appreciate things that magnify objects.
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due to my experience with bandit fuel / ignition system I can say that bandit is able to clog sparkplugs with fuel and carbon even after 50 miles so your setup must be mostly stable. either they are not getting dirty at all or only to very minor degree and then cleaning themelves up after warming up to self-cleaning temp.
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Those are looking great!
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Nice video. The bike looks and sounds great Greg!
OMG! I kept waiting for you to go crack the throttle for a little fun and no dice! I'm so disappointed! :)
I love the project still, thanks for all the updates.
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for Springtime to arrive. Here in Spokane WA it's been an unseasonably warm and dry February. I guess it's due to this year's El Nino influenced weather pattern.
I've been doing research and gathering parts, generally getting ready to dive back into the garage for the final push toward a completed Fuel Injection project (and a completed GSF400 too). I'm really feeling the urge to spend an entire week in the garage getting things done.
I've been putting together a "To-Do" list and it includes:
- Re-flashing the FI system's Microsquirt ECU with the most up-to-date release of the MSExtra firmware that it runs. There have been a number of improvements made to the firmware during the course of my GSF400 project so it's definitely time to re-flash.
- Replacing the 23 year old coolant hoses with a set of new silicon hoses plus a full set of stainless steel clamps that are "silicon hose friendly" (i.e. not the cheap, narrow ones with the open holes)
- Doing the wiring necessary to re-activate the handlebar kill switch (which I ignored during the project's initial Fuel Injection system re-wiring). It's definitely time to put that little safety measure back in working order.
- Thinking seriously about replacing the very loud, old and dented Yoshimura exhaust can with a "long quiet" stainless steel exhaust can from a company called Area P. I have a full Area P stainless steel exhaust on my Kawasaki EX250, great quality and workmanship with an outstanding sound but not too loud.
- Fitting the Solo Cowl: which means figuring out exactly how it will attach, fine-tuning the fit and how it will be cushioned so it won't rattle or wear through the paint on the tail fairing. Once the fit and attachment method is finalized I'll have to paint the Solo Cowl to match the rest of the fairings.
- Fitting the bike's side cover fairings (the little ones that go from the back of the fuel tank to the rear fairing). These covers haven't been on the bike since I first took it apart in the Fall of 2013.
- I'm going to create a small "mud flap" to close the gap at the forward end of the rear wheel hugger. There's just too much water and debris getting thrown through this little gap (about an inch) by the rear tire, coming to rest on the forward part of the swingarm.
- Install a new front brake lever and reservoir. The bike came to me with one of the two screws on the reservoir lid stripped out. I tried to fix it by drilling and tapping a deeper set of threads into the reservoir and using a longer screw but it still "weeps" out a tiny bit of fluid whenever I ride the bike at highway speeds.
- I have a tip-over sensor that I need to install on the fuel pump electrical power circuit. Carbed bikes usually stall immediately if they tip over but fuel injected bikes may continue running, which can be dangerous.
And there's more to do... there's always more.
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The tip over sensor is a good idea, at what angle does it kick in?
You are right, there is always more!
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The weather is getting warmer here in Spokane and we're seeing more motorcycles out on the roads... when it's not raining, that is, which it's been doing quite a lot lately.
I finally got my GoPro camera replaced by the manufacturer. My original GoPro, purchased last summer, was one of a whole production run that came loaded with firmware that contained a fatal bug. The camera worked fine until the day I decided to use the built in BlueTooth pairing with my cellphone. After that the camera ceased to function.
So here's a very short, non-motorcycle-related video I shot and edited on the GoPro yesterday. At least it involves the garage and working on a vehicle.
Getting rid of the awful sounding horn on my daughter's Mazda 3, replacing it with something a little louder and more "european" sounding:
http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Louie%20gets%20a%20new%20horn_zpsqiadfnv0.mp4 (http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/Louie%20gets%20a%20new%20horn_zpsqiadfnv0.mp4)
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The GSF400 project bike as it stands right now. Video on Photobucket:
http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20video%20library/GSF400%20project%20tour%20-%20April%2016-16_zpsnyukevn5.mp4 (http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20video%20library/GSF400%20project%20tour%20-%20April%2016-16_zpsnyukevn5.mp4)
Now that I've been riding the GSF400 for a while I'm getting a feel for it and here's something I've realized about it: With just over 50 horsepower this bike falls right in between low horsepower "momentum bikes" like my Kawasaki EX250 and, at the other end of the spectrum, bikes with real horsepower that you can ride "point and shoot" style.
I haven't ridden it enough to feel really comfortable and natural on it like I do on my Kawasaki EX250, but that will come with time.
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Great work! I look forward to seeing more videos!
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Nice video! :clap:
Hows fuel economy?
Also would be interesting to know whether it gained any torque/power.
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Great work :thumb:
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Nice video! :clap:
Hows fuel economy?
Also would be interesting to know whether it gained any torque/power.
Probably no measurable change in either fuel economy or horsepower/torque (speaking in "absolute" terms, i.e. manufacturer claimed max hp, max torque).
I'm fueling the bike at about the same Air/Fuel ratios that a GSF400 with a set of very fresh, very clean and very well tuned Mikunis would get (carbs with no worn brass or questionable o-rings or air leaks, perfectly synched, etc., etc.).
I haven't changed the engine's displacement (no larger pistons), nor have I added any sort of forced induction (no turbocharger, no supercharger) and I haven't added nitrous oxide injection.
This means my fuel injected GSF400 engine has exactly the same volumetric specifications as a carbureted GSF400 engine.
So the "absolute" numbers that people love to quote are almost certainly unchanged (the quoted numbers are, of course, the "peak" horsepower and torque taken from the manufacturer's literature which are produced on a dynamometer with the bike in perfect mechanical condition, running perfect Air/Fuel ratios in optimal environmental conditions such as sea-level pressure on a 60 degree F day).
The benefits of fuel injection occur "in the margins" of the engine's operating envelope. With the added benefit of long term reliability and easy tuning.
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I saw the video and I like the idea of mounting injectors into carb bodies. Do you have some kind of idle auto-adjustment via servo OR cold idle is the same as warm and stabilized only by the means of ignition advance?
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Nice video! :clap:
Hows fuel economy?
Also would be interesting to know whether it gained any torque/power.
I haven't changed the engine's displacement (no larger pistons), nor have I added any sort of forced induction (no turbocharger, no supercharger) and I haven't added nitrous oxide injection.
This means my fuel injected GSF400 engine has exactly the same volumetric specifications as a carbureted GSF400 engine.
That doens't mean you can't get more power/torque. Stock, the 400 isn't tuned for max performance.
Just going from 100 to 110 main jet increases power considerably (with aftermarket muffler). My top speed went from 185 to 215km/h on the speedo.
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I saw the video and I like the idea of mounting injectors into carb bodies. Do you have some kind of idle auto-adjustment via servo OR cold idle is the same as warm and stabilized only by the means of ignition advance?
I found that the bike's start-up and idle was very easy to tune and control with a combination of fuel tables and ignition advance. There are 6 fueling tables/curves that all combine to deliver the exact amount needed: Priming Pulse, Cranking Pulse, After Start Enrichment, After Start Enrichment Taper-Off, Warm Up Enrichment, and the basic Volumetric Efficiency Fuel Table. Plus there are 3 ignition tables/curves that control the ignition advance during start-up and warm-up.
No matter how cold it gets this bike will fire up immediately and settle into a nice stable idle. And as the engine warms to normal operating temperature the ECU slowly removes the extra fueling and reduces the ignition advance. I've tuned it to hold the idle right around 1,300 RPM.
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That doens't mean you can't get more power/torque. Stock, the 400 isn't tuned for max performance.
Just going from 100 to 110 main jet increases power considerably (with aftermarket muffler). My top speed went from 185 to 215km/h on the speedo.
Your B4 and my B4 are about as different as the B4 model gets.
Unless I'm remembering wrong yours is a 59 horsepower version and a European version. Mine is the '93 model which is a 53 horsepower version, and a USA version (although thankfully it's not one of the even more de-tuned California versions).
The way your bike is set up: Mikuni BST33SS carbs, 47/14 final drive with a 1.150 (23/20) 6th gear ratio, and the more aggressive (GSX-R400) camshaft profile with more lift 7.6mm intake and 7.0mm exhaust, results in much better performance at the top-end.
My B4 has less top-end performance available: BST32SS carbs, 46/14 final drive with a 1.136 (25/22) 6th gear ratio, and a less aggressive camshaft profile with less lift 6.2mm intake and 6.2mm exhaust, results in good low-end-to-midrange torque but doesn't deliver at the high-RPM end like your bike does.
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That doens't mean you can't get more power/torque. Stock, the 400 isn't tuned for max performance.
Just going from 100 to 110 main jet increases power considerably (with aftermarket muffler). My top speed went from 185 to 215km/h on the speedo.
Your B4 and my B4 are about as different as the B4 model gets.
Unless I'm remembering wrong yours is a 59 horsepower version and a European version. Mine is the '93 model which is a 53 horsepower version, and a USA version (although thankfully it's not one of the even more de-tuned California versions).
The way your bike is set up: Mikuni BST33SS carbs, 47/14 final drive with a 1.150 (23/20) 6th gear ratio, and the more aggressive (GSX-R400) camshaft profile with more lift 7.6mm intake and 7.0mm exhaust, results in much better performance at the top-end.
My B4 has less top-end performance available: BST32SS carbs, 46/14 final drive with a 1.136 (25/22) 6th gear ratio, and a less aggressive camshaft profile with less lift 6.2mm intake and 6.2mm exhaust, results in good low-end-to-midrange torque but doesn't deliver at the high-RPM end like your bike does.
Sure, but mine doesn't only win in top-end power.
With the needles also in +1 rich position, 110 main jet and open exhaust the mid-range is much stronger as well. In this configuration I can lift the front wheel by rapidly opening the throttle in 1st gear.
On stock this wasn't even close to possible. Not to mention the huge flat spot in full stock config.
I don't ride in this config because it's a bit nervous but more importantly too lazy to change it whenever I go on a long trip to the mountains.
Anyway my point is there is definitely an increase to be found just by different fueling compared to stock, especially now that you can so easily change it and see the results compared to carbs.
In my experience the engine likes to be a lot richer than factory.
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Back in the garage today. Was planning to ride the B4 and maybe make a video of that, but it decided to rain here in Spokane so all I did was a cold start up test...
http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20video%20library/GSF400%20cold%20start-April23-16_zpsvxkg9ea0.mp4 (http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20video%20library/GSF400%20cold%20start-April23-16_zpsvxkg9ea0.mp4)
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I used fuel injectors from a Kawasaki ZX-6R in my GSF400 project. They are the secondary injectors which are airbox-mounted on the ZX-6R (like a lot of modern supersport bikes the ZX-6R uses 8 fuel injectors total).
Playing around with the cheap Chinese USB microscope. Here's what the fuel injector tips look like at magnification up to about 125X:
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ZX-6R20secondary20injector20pic201_zpsbbd7wgt1.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ZX-6R20sencondary20injector20pic202_zpslxju0ysh.jpg)
(http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/ZX-6R20secondary20injector20pic203_zps6stdkdfx.jpg)
As mentioned, these injectors are from a Kawasaki ZX-6R. They are the secondary injectors that are mounted in the airbox with an injector pointed directly into the mouth of each individual throttlebody velocity stack.
Also, the set of injectors in these photos are my "backup" set of ZX-6R injectors. When I was gathering parts for this project I found that the Ebay bike-breakers were practically giving these ZX-6R secondary injector arrays away so I bought a second set just in case I ever needed to replace one or all of my original set. I haven't had this set professionally cleaned so they're a bit on the dirty side and as a result not particularly photogenic.
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What was the reason for using these? I assume that volumetric throughtput of main injectors is simply too large for engine of small displacement.
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What was the reason for using these? I assume that volumetric throughtput of main injectors is simply too large for engine of small displacement.
Your guess is correct, these ZX-6R secondary injectors have the exact volumetric profile that a high-revving 100cc cylinder needs.
You have to find a Goldilocks solution with injectors: not too big, not too small. Too big and the injection Pulse Width at idle becomes impossible to tune properly, and too small means you run out of delivery capacity before the engine reaches its redline speed.
When I first decided to try them I had no idea if they were a match for the GSF400, but they seemed like they might be a good bet and, as mentioned, they were for sale on Ebay at dirt cheap prices so it was worth taking the chance.
The gamble turned out good, these ZX-6R secondary injectors tested at 160cc per minute under 43.5 psi (held open, full flow). In actual use most fuel injectors cannot be constantly held open, in fact they are intended to have a maximum "duty cycle" (which is the ratio of "on" vs. "off") of about 80% to 85%. So by doing the math to account for that: 160cc per minute constant-flow test result reduced by 20% to approximate the normal maximum 80% duty cycle I got a 128cc per minute "real world" number which was perfect for the GSF400.
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Got out for a ride on the GSF400 today, first ride for about 3 months or more. I've just been too busy getting my life settled here in Denver, CO (I moved here from Spokane in late May).
The GSF400 fuel injection project bike was waiting patiently for me to get back to it. All I had to do was remember to charge the battery last night and it started up today on the first press of the starter.
I've been so busy with work, children and other hobbies the months of not riding just flew by. Part of it is that there's not a lot of good riding close by where I live now in Denver, in Spokane I had great twisty, satisfying country roads right from the edge of my neighborhood. I'll have to get over being spoiled like that.
Hopefully there will still be some riding weather for a bit here in Denver.
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Hi Greg!
You really inspired me so I'm putting together my own microsquirt build for a B4V. Right now I'm in the process of gathering material and parts and i was wondering if you could post the map sensor array schematic.
Although i will try to document the whole process it will probably not at the detail of your write-up.
Thanks for making it easy!
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Judging from your avatar, I'd say you reside in Greece.
If you are located in Athens and want to see my build or discuss, drop a line.
tubular
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Hi Themis (right?) Yes I'm from Greece. We spoke actually on your topic ages ago.
Although I'm living in Scotland now and this is where I'm building my B4 :roll:
Actually your build convinced me to use an in tank pump but I dont want to hijack Greg's topic so I'll send you a pm later when I finish work
:beers:
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Yeap! It's me. Good to hear from you again Nikos(?) . Those messages from 2011 are still in my inbox. So, let's not spoil Greg's post further. Send me a PM whenever you feel like. I'm always around.
:beers:
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Hey Greg I hope you are good, any chance of setting up an online photo album of the build? All the pictures in the topic have expired sand all the visual reference is unfotunately gone!
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Hey Greg I hope you are good, any chance of setting up an online photo album of the build? All the pictures in the topic have expired sand all the visual reference is unfotunately gone!
Yeah, I'm still around, still have the FI GSF400, still riding it, the bike never fails to please me as it's such an different experience from my other motorcycles (the VFR800 and the EX250).
Recently my Photobucket account went down, not because I failed to pay for the account, I got billed in December 2019 and paid, have the credit card statement to prove it, so it's not because of money. Instead Photobucket is claiming that they had a "server problem" and my account was "one of the affected accounts" and they say it will be back up as soon as possible.
We'll see what happens. The GSF400 still runs great, but smokes a bit on start-up after sitting for a while (like a week or month). Long term I'm thinking about a refresh of the engine, things like pistons and the valves and maybe the valve guides.
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Good to hear that! Keep us postage with the engine progress if and when you decide to go on.
If photobucket doesn't work out keep in mind that there are other cloud services like google drive, onedrive, dropbox etc that they have free services.
Cheers!