Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: Garyola on April 15, 2007, 03:17:35 PM
-
Hi guys.
I just thought I'd start a thread for my foray into Jay's big bore kit. I'll keep updating my experiences with in this thread.
I was going to assemble the whole thing myself but decided to get my heads and valves done at the same time as I had the jugs bored. So I had the shop put the thing together for me for the extra few hundred. Safe than sorry.
So I've had the heads rebuilt and bead blasted, new valve sleeves, and the valves all re-cut. The cams are getting put in as I write this and I'm picking the engine up later today or 1st thing in the morning.
I'm having this work done by Pro6 Cycle in Toronto. Pro6 is one of the top race shops in Canada. They build motors for some of the best racers in Canada and I have been dealing with them since the early 90s. I trust them with my stuff.
Sandy is the main man and owner there and has raced 250gp in the US and Canada. He knows his stuff.
Sandy explained to me what this big bore will actually do to the power of the B4. He said my actual hp will go up only marginally but the rise in torque will be quite noticeable. He said as an example if the bike was say 50hp before the big bore that the hp should go up to about 52-54 but the extra torque I will gain, will give me that peak hp sooner and longer in the rev range. He said this translates into about a 10+/- hp gain throughout. :bigok: This is all good! I hope I explained this correctly. I'm just trying to remember what he said. But this all depends on where it was to begin with and I will try to get it on a dyno at some point. If I had 55hp to start, the bike will gain say about 10hp with the torque, that puts me in the 60-65 range. That is all I wanted. :bandit:
I'm putting the new engine in the bike this week and will be on the track breaking it in on April 22nd which is next Sunday.
I'll keep you all posted.
G
-
Wonderfull :congrats:
-
Way cool, Gary. Please do keep us posted. So, you never had it on the dyno to give you the "before" number?
-
This is a typical dyno chart of a 400 even though its a newer gsxr still has similar engine Gary is he degree-ing your cams?
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1639/dyno400ef7.jpg)
Here is one with 33mm flat slides like i have quite a big difference.
(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6176/gsxr400gk76awfcr33flatsmz2.jpg)
-
Good luck. Hopefully the weather will be nice by the 22nd.
-
I have not had it on the dyno. There was no point. I know the bike is slow and I was even slower. :grin: I've improved.
What does "degree the cams" mean?
G
-
read this or just google motorcycle cam degreeing
http://www.webcamshafts.com/
-
Here's another dyno chart. I got this one from 'Börger' on the German Bandit forum. This is a restricted 54 HP West-Germany model. It's restricted by rings that are moulded into the carburator covers, they prevent the throttle slide from opening the last 5 mm.
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6826/62737732lc2.th.jpg) (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=62737732lc2.jpg)
-
Well that seems to be the common number for alot of them 55hp
-
Well that seems to be the common number for alot of them 55hp
Not mine hehehe :stickpoke:
-
well its been years and i still havent seen a dyno chart from your bike :stickpoke:
-
seems like a pretty flat torque curve....and pretty good torque....not bad!
-
Cool can't wait to hear a first-person account of the difference the kit makes.
*hopefully it's not much, so I won't want to save to buy one, haha*
-
hope all is well Gary good luck tomorrow
cheers
jay
-
Way to pick 'em. It's supposed to be 20-21 degrees celsius (70 degrees fahrenheit) and sunny on sunday.
-
Hey Jay,
Do you have a W-30 option for your 442, like Oldsmobile did?
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d35/paulweit/Bandit%20Alley/442-W-30.jpg)
:bandit: :motorsmile: :bandit:
-
yes its called......
465
-
I figured if it was an increase, it'd be the 494.
The Olds 442 W-30 package gave you a motor with ram air, a hotter cam, HD valve springs, chrome valve covers and a modified advance curve... but no increase in cubes from the regular 442's V8 (except '72). '65-'69 were 400 cubes, the '70-'71 were 455 cubes and in '72 the 350 was std with the 455 as an option. '65-'66 models also got tri-power (instead of the std 4bbl) with a heat riser shut-off, but GM dictated in '67 only the Corvette could have multiple carbs, so '67 and later W-30's got the Quadrajet 4bbl. In '70 the 442's 400 motor was replaced with a 455 and the W-30 package included an aluminum intake manifold, cold air hood (earlier cold air induction had been thru the bumper) and different heads, in addition to the items earlier W-30's got over the std 442. '72 was the last year for the 'real' W-30.
As you can see, 442 didn't stand for displacement. It stood for 4-barrel, 4-speed, dual (2) exhaust in it's debut in '64 with the 330 V8 (no W-30 that year), and 400 cubic inches, 4-speed, 2 exhausts in '65-'69.
-
that's for the gear head explanation I'll use that in my next Tim the tool man Taylor trivia game. arghhhhhhhh! lol :motorsmile:
-
Ok.
Sunday was a wash. :sad:
I couldn't get the old starter clutch off the old motor because I didn't heave the correct tool. I tried to push start it but the B4 was having none of it.
Sunday morning I found someone that had the proper size puller and pulled the starter stuff off the old motor and put it in the new motor. The thing fired up on the 1st touch of the starter button. :clap: I put it through it's break in procedures in idle and I will have it on the track in the morning at a track day to break it in while moving.
It sounds pretty beefy! :grin:
I'll let you know how it all goes.
G
-
read this post and follow the link to the guys suggestions all makes sense and ive seen it both ways
http://forums.13x.com/showthread.php?t=139337
-
or just give the direct link to his site (http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm)
there also more interesting stuff to read on the rest of the site (http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm) if you have alot of spare time :lol:
offtopic: what do you guys think about the velocity porting?
-
I velocity ported my old cg125 seemed to work quite well till the chemical metal came unstuck and started rattling about.
-
It's partly true, but in that guide they state 'big is bad' which is not true. The problem is, when ports are made bigger, the radius of the port is often screwed up which restricts flow or generates turbulence etc.
-
Hi Folks
1st day at the track has ended for the 442.
I spent the morning on cruise breaking in the new motor. It immediately felt faster and had a ton more torque.
After the 3rd 15 minute session, I was starting to get the bike up to 10-11 thou. It started to bog down at that point. I had put in an air filter that was crap so I pulled it and just ran screen in the airbox. Then it really came alive. So I headed over to the suspension experts and they dialed the little bandit in real nice. :motorsmile:
So I jumped up into the fast group to see how the B4 would do. Well let me tell you. The little bugger is fast. It has noticeably more speed and torque throughout the midrange and once you hit 10 grand it starts to growl and pulls hard compared to what it was like before. It's still not a 600rr but I was only passed by a few guys on big bikes all afternoon. I even passed a few 600's on turn one, on the outside(but I love that corner and I have it nailed). I didn't feel slow out there at all. Now the track configuration we ran today( Nelson (http://shannonville.com/body/track_mapPop.php?track=nelson) at Shannonville) gives the advantage to smaller bikes. Seven turns and short straights so I could carry lots of speed.
After today's run at the track, I don't regret for a second putting in Jay's 442 big bore. :bigok: It makes the B4 bigger and beefier. I think with some carb work and getting rid of the air box it will even be quicker.
I will be racing it in two weeks and I'll let you know how it does in it's class. I can tell you I won't be blaming the bike for a poor performance.
G
-
Grand mate glad you had a great time.
cheers
jay
-
Excellent!
With carbs/airbox dialed in it should be perfect, can't wait to see the dyno numbers (if you run it on one).
Wish I had the money/time/skill.
-
How long till the 465 is gonna be produced?
-
when someone comes up with a $1000.00 they can have one with gaskets and sleeves and pistons
cheers
jay
-
I bet you just cant wait! :taz: :stickpoke: :motorsmile:
-
My first weekend of racing of the season was a good news bad news story. The weekend went well for the bike. Not so well for me. :shock: Friday practice went very well. Our class got lots of practice. The times are all posted after each practice and I was in the top few in my class. Saturday is morning practice and a heat race in the afternoon to grid everyone for the final on Sunday.
My practice times put me on the front row for the heat race. That was great. Then I was late for my heat race. I showed up and the field had already done their warm up lap. They wouldn't let me grid. I had to start from the pits and wait for everyone to pass me before I could enter the track. From front row to back of the field. :annoy: I did alright anyway. I got the Bandit up to 8th place in the 6 lap heat. For the final on Sunday I was on the 3rd row.
In the final, I got a really bad start and had a lot of guys pass me. I passed them all back on the 1st lap. By the second lap I passed a bike for 4th place and was on the hunt for the 3rd place guy I could see and maybe gain on. Then disaster struck. The track is all right handers except for 2 corners. The petcock is on the left side of the tank I didn't put enough gas in the tank to keep gas on the left side of the tank. :duh: I ran out of fuel at the midway point of the race. :bomb:
The weekend was not a total write off though. I took almost 4 seconds off my lap times and have a list of things the bike needs to make it a little better and a list of things to make me a little smarter.
I have no complaints about the way the bike is running. It's very strong and the bandit is a monster in the corners. I actually wore out a set of knee sliders on the weekend.
G
(http://www.mulcahey.com/race1.jpg)
-
love the carbon helmet
-
It was great reading you posts. What fairing do you have pictured on the bandit? Was it hard putting it on?
-
zx 6
-
Duane: Like Jay said it's a ZX6. The bike came with it in the spares bin. There was a cage made for it so it fits well enough. The cage is bolted to the bike and the fairing is put on the cage with plastic ties.
Jay: the helmet is nice and light. It feels like you don't have one on.
G
-
Pos No.
Name Best Tm In Lap Best Spd (Km/h) Diff Gap Laps
Additional
1 32 Simiana 1:01.795 5 104.863 5 -
2 617 Scott Mackenzie 1:02.005 4 104.508 0.210 0.210 6 -
3 840 Tim Voyer 1:02.419 4 103.815 0.624 0.414 6 -
4 93 Henderson 1:02.742 5 103.280 0.947 0.323 6 -
5 169 Watson 1:02.840 5 103.119 1.045 0.098 6 -
6 175 Luc LaCasse 1:02.952 4 102.936 1.157 0.112 6 -
7 210 Craig Underwood 1:03.251 5 102.449 1.456 0.299 6 -
8 491 Brett Bowman 1:03.663 5 101.786 1.868 0.412 6 -
9 164 Brian Peterson 1:04.436 6 100.565 2.641 0.773 6 -
10 299 Gary Mulcahey 1:04.738 4 100.096 2.943 0.302 6
-
I did a little better in the final. Got it up to 9th. The bike is a demon in the corners. I've shortened the dog bones by 3/8ths of an inch which raised the back almost two inches. It didn't hurt the handling but let me lean the little B4 over so I didn't scrape pegs and my toes.
On the straights, I was having serious problems. If the bike was running better there, I could have taken a few seconds a lap off my times. I suspected carbs and after the last practice I pulled the plugs. Number 4 was fouled bad, #3 not as bad, #2 was perfect and #1 was also a little rich. I've sent it over to get tuned up and if I have the time I will get this thing sorted on a dyno next week after this weekends racing.
G
Pos No.
Name Laps Total Tm Diff Best Tm In Lap Best Spd (Km/h)
Additional
1 617 Scott Mackenzie 12 12:35.182 1:01.441 10 105.467 -
2 169 Watson 12 12:43.974 8.792 1:02.701 7 103.348 -
3 840 Tim Voyer 12 12:46.659 11.477 1:02.304 10 104.006 -
4 28 Adam Bennett 12 12:51.916 16.734 1:01.083 11 106.085 -
5 210 Craig Underwood 12 12:55.960 20.778 1:03.439 11 102.145 -
6 164 Brian Peterson 12 13:01.111 25.929 1:04.112 3 101.073 -
7 8 Steve Bond 12 13:08.023 32.841 1:04.253 2 100.851 -
8 623 Kevin Kloet 12 13:10.099 34.917 1:04.614 8 100.288 -
9 299 Gary Mulcahey 12 13:19.110 43.928 1:04.464 11 100.521 -
-
got a leaking float? anyways good job!