Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: stormi on August 20, 2005, 01:42:52 AM
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Well,.. Today Dita left me stranded in St Albert (10 mins from home). :crybaby: I was sitting at a light and she just died. I shrugged and hit the start button, and nothing. no click, no "Rrr rrrr", nothing. Of course I was in the middle lane headed north, and of course she has no hazard lights. This is a little hairy in heavy traffic. I got her to the side of the road and tried again. "Rrrr... click" Called home for help. While I was waiting, I tried tapping her stator, tapping the CDI, checked the yellow wires to the battery that were a problem before, checked the fuses, swore at her, pleaded with her,... nothing. I tried push starting her, and got her started,... but about 90 secs later she died. Then I push started her again, and she ran for maybe 15 secs and died. After that, I couldn't even push start her.
Once we got her home, we boosted her with my Ranger, (yes, the ranger was off) and she started right up. She ran for about 2 mins, then died,.. and no power in the battery to start her again. Hooked her up to the truck again,.. and she started up,.. then died about a minute later.
Of note would be that her battery is about 2 months old.
This is the first problem I've had with her in those 2 months.
I also rode her on Monday when it was drizzling and cold all day. Not a fun ride, and she didn't see any maintenance til Wednesday after that. :duh:
The BF washed her off on Wednesday, but says he didn't spend any amount of time near the CDI, RR or stator.
Also interesting is that I'd been riding her around the city from about 3pm on, doing errands, and not one of the times that i stopped and restarted her, did she indicate any sort of problem to lead me to believe that this would happen. This happened around 7pm,.. I'd think if it was related to the wash, that it would have been a problem at the beginning, not that late in a ride?
We're going to go through that flowchart again tomorrow once her battery is charged up, but does anyone have any ideas what happened? Or where to start looking if the flowchart fails? And in a pinch, where to get a RR or stator fast so I can continue to ride her?
Thanks
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where to get a RR or stator fast so I can continue to ride her?
And hopefully reasonably inexpensively, since i"ve already -totally- blown the budget on her this year.
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PM GSXR400 Racer I think he has everything you need.
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I might have to. So far what it's looking like is that we had a bad connection on the negative terminal of the battery, and a suspect RR. I'm going to take it to AB cycle and see if they will test it for me.
According to the flowchart that I posted a while back, if you measure the diode whatchamacallit between the three yellow wires and the black and red cables,.. you should get readings of 1.5V or better. I get over that for 2 out of three wires,.. assuming the reading is in volts ( I get readings of 1750 etc,.. so I suspect that it's in mV) so if that's true, then the 3rd reading of 006,.. indicates that the RR is bad. :( I want a second opinion before I replace it though.
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Well if you had a bad ground that is the # 1 killer of R&R as you call them.
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Upon locating my multimeter instruction manual, yes,.. her RR is bad. I stopped at the Motorcycle salvage here in town, they don't have anything. He also told me that the reason that there aren't many bandits around is because they're pieces of sh!t... I know that's not true, and won't be going back.
Suzuki Part - $295,.. in Vancouver, so likely a week to get it.
BMV F650 RR - $209 Calgary, likely a couple of days to get,
Honda CB400 RR - $160 in stock at the dealer.
I know,.. wtf right?
Based on a little research, we should be able to use any 5 wire RR as long as it will fit, or you are willing to possibly have to re-locate it.
From : http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRectifierFAQ.htm
Re: Electrex
"The man who answered the phone ... ANY regulator rectifier that has three yellow wires, one positive and one ground would work just fine, like for any Kawasaki or GS (assume he means Su..zuki) or really anything, as long as it isn't like a hundred cc's which in that case it wouldn't handle the power."
And further down the same page:
"FYI: We confirmed we can use a regulator from a Honda CB400 -- it is exactly the same shape, with mounting holes in exactly the same places, and 6 wires. Price for BMW part here is probably around $125, the Honda part is US$55. The only diff is the color of wiring - 4 wires are the same: 3 yellow, 1 red-white; for use on BMW, need to swap positions of the brown (earth) and green wires - Honda uses green for earth."
I saw the Honda one today, it's got 5 wires, 3 yellow, one red and one green. It's dimensions are slighly bigger than the OEM, but I'm not adverse to re-locating it for a savings of $135 and the ability to ride on Monday instead of waiting. I might take her in there on the back of the truck on Monday and test fit it right there just to make sure. (There is a possibility that it will fit in place.
If you're stuck on the Suzuki replacement:
LT250, RGV250,DRZ400,GS400E, GSxR400 (including the import version),LT400, Rf400,GS500E,GSF250,DR250,DR350,DR650, and DR800 all use the same RR. Possibly the LS 650 Savage as well. ( since it's listed as the same part # by SX electronics as the bandit 400, along with the BMW F650 )
Anyone see any reason I shouldn't do this?
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Well if you had a bad ground that is the # 1 killer of R&R as you call them.
It sure did kill my R&R! I was planning on enjoying myself this weekend. I don't know how bad the connection was. I had 0.22V where I was supposed to have 0.2V or less. Nevertheless, when cleaned up, it read 0.19V.
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For the most part, all 5 wire reg/rectifiers are pretty much the same. Two things you have to watch out for are the polarity on the DC side (the two wires) and if the unit is capable of dissipating enough heat. If the polarity of the DC side is wrong, you'll have to swap the wires. You can run the bike for a short while with the DC side disconnected and measure the voltage to determine which side is the + output. This wire, obviously, needs to be fed to the + terminal. Heat dissipation is the next question. You'll need to find a reg/rect from a bike that has a charging system that outputs an equal or greater amount of power than that of the Bandit 400. Problem is, I couldn't ever find a spec on what the B4's charging system is rated at. (I assume it's less than most other bikes simply because it's smaller than most other bikes, but this may not be true). If you get a unit from a bike that has a weaker charging system, you'll quickly toast that unit.
I replaced R/R with a unit I bought off eBay that came from an '04 GS500f. The wiring connections and mounting holes are exactly the same so no modifications were required. Since I was never able to find the power output specs on the B4, I just guessed that the GS500 unit would be similar in power... so far (2months) I haven't had any problems.
When you replace your R/R, I suggest applying some thermal grease (the kind used on computer processors .. Arctic Silver is one of the best) on the parts that come in contact with the frame/mounts and around the bolt holes. This will help transfer heat away from the unit which will help the reliability issue. HEAT is the#1 killer of Reg/Rect's.
A note... running more accessories (ie - high beams, running lights, electrc vests, etc) will actually take the load off the reg/rectifier unit (prolonging its life) without affecting the load on the charging system one bit. (The charging system always runs "full blast". The reg/rect unit bleeds off the extra power that is not used as heat ... which is what kills it).
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For the most part, all 5 wire reg/rectifiers are pretty much the same. Two things you have to watch out for are the polarity on the DC side (the two wires) and if the unit is capable of dissipating enough heat. If the polarity of the DC side is wrong, you'll have to swap the wires. You can run the bike for a short while with the DC side disconnected and measure the voltage to determine which side is the + output. This wire, obviously, needs to be fed to the + terminal.
Well the good part is, through reading and even confirming it with the Honda dealer, I know which is which on both the OEM and the Honda one. So this seems like a viable option.
Heat dissipation is the next question. You'll need to find a reg/rect from a bike that has a charging system that outputs an equal or greater amount of power than that of the Bandit 400. Problem is, I couldn't ever find a spec on what the B4's charging system is rated at. (I assume it's less than most other bikes simply because it's smaller than most other bikes, but this may not be true). If you get a unit from a bike that has a weaker charging system, you'll quickly toast that unit.
The great thing about this other RR is that the surface area of it is bigger,.. that says to me better heat dissipation right off the bat,.. and it's ever so slightly taller, so that says to me that it will sit into the air a little more.
I would think that it would be lower too because it doesn't have a lot of accessories. I simply added up the stuff in the servicing information on page 8-33 of the manual and got 132.7,.. then I would think whatever your CDI is going to use, let's say 60watts ( wild stab in the dark) then I would times that all by 1.33 to give me a max of 75% power usage at peak power. I would think we'd be fine with any RR that's for a bike that's 260W or bigger. Of course it if takes 120W for the CDI,etc... then we're looking at 340W... I guess the question comes down to what is the Ignition system needing to run?
I replaced R/R with a unit I bought off eBay that came from an '04 GS500f. The wiring connections and mounting holes are exactly the same so no modifications were required. Since I was never able to find the power output specs on the B4, I just guessed that the GS500 unit would be similar in power... so far (2months) I haven't had any problems.
And you shouldn't, based on the list I posted up top,.. they use the same RR.
I think I might pick up another one from Ebay or elsewhere for a spare later on. Right now, I just don't want to wait. It just rained for a week solid, then the first day I could have ridden her, she did this. We have way too short a riding season in the place as it is, I'm not willing to let her sit in the shed for a week or two while I wait for parts.
When you replace your R/R, I suggest applying some thermal grease (the kind used on computer processors .. Arctic Silver is one of the best) on the parts that come in contact with the frame/mounts and around the bolt holes. This will help transfer heat away from the unit which will help the reliability issue. HEAT is the#1 killer of Reg/Rect's.
That's an excellent idea! Thanks! I just happen to have a tube of the stuff here.
A note... running more accessories (ie - high beams, running lights, electrc vests, etc) will actually take the load off the reg/rectifier unit (prolonging its life) without affecting the load on the charging system one bit. (The charging system always runs "full blast". The reg/rect unit bleeds off the extra power that is not used as heat ... which is what kills it).
Well,.. perhaps I'll get those heated grips after all. As for the high beams,.. I think I'll pass on that,.. I don't need any more reasons for anyone to try to run me off the road. And electric clothing sort of bothers me on a fundamental level,.. I don't know how comfortable I'd be "plugged in" to my bike.
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WOW going though this tread I have never seen electrical theory mascaraed like this. As the manual states the 3 yellow wires must have at least 70 volts AC @ 5000 RPM. If you don't has the proper voltage then the R&R can't do it's job. If you read the manual carefully it states that the reading of 3.5 K ohms is only with a Suzuki tester and other my give you a different reading so be warned. I all has to do with the internal resistance of the multimeter. Cheaper ones are in the 1 mega ohm range which is too low to test electronics, Bare minimum is 10 mega ohm with the standard being 20 mega ohm internal impedance for electronic work. :beers:
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WOW going though this tread I have never seen electrical theory mascaraed like this. As the manual states the 3 yellow wires must have at least 70 volts AC @ 5000 RPM. If you don't has the proper voltage then the R&R can't do it's job. If you read the manual carefully it states that the reading of 3.5 K ohms is only with a Suzuki tester and other my give you a different reading so be warned. I all has to do with the internal resistance of the multimeter. Cheaper ones are in the 1 mega ohm range which is too low to test electronics, Bare minimum is 10 mega ohm with the standard being 20 mega ohm internal impedance for electronic work. :beers:
Which part is massacared? AC theory, especially in inverters (DC to AC) is that you never want to use the "full" capability of the device, generally 75% is accepted ( I have a friend that does a lot of electronics work and these are the numbers he gave me) so that you don't burn out the device. The max rating is for peak and temporary usage only. It sort of stands to reason does it not that DC electronics should be subject to the same basic laws, no?
If I've totally massacared this, why don't you tell the class then what the output wattage of the B4 is? I read the manual carefully, as has todius I would think. Neither of us could find the answer, so I made a few assumptions, and labelled them as such. 70Volts AC from the stator means nothing in watts til you know how many amps this is coupled with. 1, 5, 10, 25A? I didn't imply that proper voltage was not required.
Also, the test that Electrex has on their site is more comprehensive and doesn't require special equipment than the one in the suzuki manual. (Yes, I've stepped through both, with the exception of the part requiring the special suzuki tool.) I know of at least 4 occasions where it's worked, two of them on my bike.
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Ah that is one thing I forgot, the voltage of the output of the stator on the bike IS another consideration. If the donor bike's stator output voltage is much lower, the stator off the Bandit 400 will fry the regulator from the donor bike as it probably won't have parts rated for the higher voltage.
If you read the manual carefully it states that the reading of 3.5 K ohms is only with a Suzuki tester and other my give you a different reading so be warned.
I don't see anywhere in this thread regarding a measurement of Resistance. All the readings I've seen were voltage measurements? (I don't see a 1Mg vs 20Mg-Ohm multimeter making much difference when reading voltage measurements on the RR)
Putting a 1Meg-Ohm meter in parallel with a 3.5K Ohm load will only cause the reading of a 3.5k-Ohm load to drop to (Derived from Ohm's law, the resistance of two loads in parallel is (1/R1 + 1/R2)^-1) .... = (1/1000000+1/3500)^-1 = 3487.79-Ohm In percent error, this is (3487.79-3500)/3500*100% = -0.34886% Less than half a percent error using a cheap 1MEG-Ohm meter doesn't seem too bad to me... heck the A/D converter in the unit probably accounts for as much error as that.
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Ah that is one thing I forgot, the voltage of the output of the stator on the bike IS another consideration. If the donor bike's stator output voltage is much lower, the stator off the Bandit 400 will fry the regulator from the donor bike as it probably won't have parts rated for the higher voltage.
Point taken,.. I will verify this on the Honda one in case it is cheaper. Also an interesting note,.. I looked at the online price of a '04 GS500F RR,.. $80USD,.. the RR for the bandit on the same page? $165. I'm going to call the Suzuki dealer tomorrow and see what I can get the same one you have for. (I'm also thinking that it's more likely in stock for an '04)
I don't see anywhere in this thread regarding a measurement of Resistance. All the readings I've seen were voltage measurements? (I don't see a 1Mg vs 20Mg-Ohm multimeter making much difference when reading voltage measurements on the RR)
The thread I started a few days back does involve an Ohm test. http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=2174
It links to this Flowchart:
http:// https://www.electrosport.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf
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I don't see anywhere in this thread regarding a measurement of Resistance. All the readings I've seen were voltage measurements?
Sorry, I didn't post those results, because she passed those ones. :) The ohms test is right after the diode test ( where the readings are in mV) in the flowchart.
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Sorry, I didn't post those results, because she passed those ones. :) The ohms test is right after the diode test ( where the readings are in mV) in the flowchart.
Don't see any resistance readings after the diode checks ("D" doesn't apply to the B4). I do see resistance readings before the diode check of the stator coil windings. They are in the neighborhood of 0.5 to 2-ohms meaning the error created by a cheap meter would be next to nothin'.
I don't really see anything in this flowchart that looks off ('cept maybe the diode checks from the AC side to the DC side... if all RR's are made the same (which they probably are) this would be valid, but I could see situations where there could be differences.
In general, though, I think its a really good troubleshooting guide.
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Don't see any resistance readings after the diode checks ("D" doesn't apply to the B4). I do see resistance readings before the diode check of the stator coil windings. They are in the neighborhood of 0.5 to 2-ohms meaning the error created by a cheap meter would be next to nothin'.
Duh! Sorry,.. yeah,.. those were for the stator. for some reason I thought I'd done the same for the RR, but looking back at the test, it was the stator.
I don't really see anything in this flowchart that looks off ('cept maybe the diode checks from the AC side to the DC side... if all RR's are made the same (which they probably are) this would be valid, but I could see situations where there could be differences.
In general, though, I think its a really good troubleshooting guide.
And the one that I think you're referring to comes up as a "1" therefore the same as OL on this meter I believe. Which I think it would on some RRs and then others would read something over (or under 1.00V) Is it possible that those particular RRs where that test would be invalid have already been ruled out halfway down the first page?
I think if Electrex didn't want $165 their RR (plus shipping time),.. I might buy from them since they've been so darn much help. :) Unfortunately, when it comes to downtime, I've not got that much patience.
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Max output is 362.5 watts using a voltage of 14.5 :idea:
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Max output is 362.5 watts using a voltage of 14.5 :idea:
Thanks! Where did you find that info?
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To get an idea of what they're (you're) testing in Step C, I drew up a few quick schematics. I left out the shunting circuitry to simplify it (plus I'm not sure of the method that our reg/rect uses), but the rectifier portion should be very similar to this.
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/o/totes7/RR/rect_circ.jpg)
The "little triangles" represent diodes. You can think of diodes as an electrical equivalent to a check valve. It allows current to flow in one direction but not the other. It takes a certain amount of "pressure" (voltage) to open the check valve. This "pressure" is typically 0.5 to 0.7V, but it depends on the diode. The side with the line on the symbol is the "blocking side of the diode".
In the first test, they want to see if the check valve (diode) is properly preventing flow (current) from traveling backwards through the valve. They decided to check the positive terminal of the rectifier first. Current flows from the Red Lead to the Black Lead on the multimeter assuming the leads are hooked up correctly. In this scenario, the diode should block this current flow and cause a high or OL reading on the meter.
If you follow the current path in the picture below (current must flow through the lines and complete a circuit), you can see how the first test is testing the diode in reverse (preventing current flow). The fuzzy grey arrow represents the direction of current flow (or "attempted" current flow).
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/o/totes7/RR/rect_rev_diodechk.jpg)
This is repeated for all three legs (yellow wires)... here is the next leg:
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/o/totes7/RR/rect_rev_diodechk2.jpg)
The same thing is done for the third leg though I won't post it out of redundancy.
The next check is to determine whether the check valve is "opening" properly. Current should flow from the Red lead, through the diode and into the black lead. A properly functioning diode should require about 0.5 to 0.7V to open the pathway.
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/o/totes7/RR/rect_fwd_diodechk.jpg)
Again, this is repeated for the other two yellow wires.
If everything checked out on the diodes leading to the positive terminal on the DC side, Electrex next has you check the Negative terminal on the DC side. Notice on the negative side, the diodes are facing the opposite direction in relation to the path of flow.
Putting the red lead on the negative terminal (black/wht wire) will test if the diode is "opening" properly, while putting the read lead on one of the yellow wires will test if the diode is "blocking" properly.
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/t/o/totes7/RR/rect_fwd_neg_diodechk.jpg)
Sorry about all this technical boring stuff, but I hope it helps someone understand at least a portion of their charging system better.
I'm going to bed now before I injure my brain... :clubme:
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In this scenario, the diode should block this current flow and cause a high or OL reading on the meter.
Well,.. it looks like the old RR was in worse shape than I thought. It read 1750 ish when the new one reads 1 (or OL) here. IN theory then, you should have two that will read OL and two with readings in the .5V range? If I read that right. Both on opposite tests, ie the negative test using red wire on negative wire will read approx. the same as the positive test using the red wires on the yellow wires?
I found that terribly helpful, thank you! :grin: And really easy to understand, possibly partly due to the fact that I went through the test 3 times today, and plan to do it once more today. ( starting to think I might be a little OCD! :shock: )
Once to test the new RR, then once when the install was finished ( went with the CB400 one, it was available today, whereas the one for the GS500F was backordered indefinitely, and of course the B4 one is $300 plus a week away), then once more after the test ride to make sure everything was in spec. Now that she's been ridden 35kms including highway and "prolonged" high rpm, I want to test it again.
Really, chances are that I will do it a few more times over the course of the next week.
And for good measure, I picked up voltmeter to install on her somewhere, so I have a way to monitor this instead of "surprise! The battery's dead, and you're in rush hour traffic and in the middle lane with no hazard lights!"
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Hey everybody,
I just wanted to let everyone know that the Honda RR is holding up just great. It's 6 weeks into it, and it''s showing no signs of trouble.
I might have shortened it's life a little today ( sure shortened mine) though when I just about lit Dita on fire!
I thought I'd be smart and hook a multimeter to her that I could carry on a tank bag and monitor her voltage. Well, long story short it's not a nice thing to watch smoke pouring out of the bike. Luckily the BF ripped the multimeter off the bike and stopped it from going any further. The wire was burnt all the way up to about 1/2" from the negative battery post. There doesn't seem to be any damage to the bike at all, but I think I'll stay away from wiring for a little bit.
If anyone knows of a good voltmeter and a place to mount it on the bike though, I'm open to suggestions...
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:shock: yikes!
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:shock: yikes!
That's pretty close to what I yelled :wink: I suspect that I might have accidentally plugged the lead into the 10A unfused slot instead of the regular slot for testing,... so she just totally overloaded the meter, even though it was off.
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Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, everyone.
I just wanted to say that after more than 2 years and about 10K kms, the Honda RR is still perfectly fine. This replacement was a complete success.
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Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, everyone.
I just wanted to say that after more than 2 years and about 10K kms, the Honda RR is still perfectly fine. This replacement was a complete success.
That's cuz it's a Honda! :lol:
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That's cuz it's a Honda! :lol:
That sorta talk is like to get you lynched on a zuk site,... luckily, I happen to know the site owner has a bit of a soft spot for the Hondas. :wink:
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That sorta talk is like to get you lynched on a zuk site,... luckily, I happen to know the site owner has a bit of a soft spot for the Hondas. :wink:
I knew that too so I knew I could get away with it!
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Hopefully, it's not a genuine Honda RR with all the troubles I read of their stock RR's going belly-up and the most inopportune moments.
I guess I can't slam Hondas too much though - now that I own one... and a Chinese copy of one. :wink:
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Hopefully, it's not a genuine Honda RR with all the troubles I read of their stock RR's going belly-up and the most inopportune moments.
I guess I can't slam Hondas too much though - now that I own one... and a Chinese copy of one. :wink:
I think all of the companies have had trouble with RRs. I learned what I did about the inter-changability on a BMW site (F650 IIRC)
Of course I can see why some of them go toes up when they're about 2" x 1", un-finned and located under the seat on some models ( notably the CBRs - no wonder my ass got so overly warm, between the heat soak from the engine to the frame and the RR right underneath the left cheek....)
I much prefer the setup on the 919. It's under the tail, but away from spray, and you can clearly see the fins by poking a head under the tail. That said, when the time comes to replace it, I don't look forward to dismantling the tail section to get it out. That's one place for sure that the Bandit excels. It's easy to get at and test, and change if need be.