Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: gsxr400 racer on August 23, 2006, 06:45:59 PM
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Please post info if you own a VV motor so everyone that doesnt have a VV can learn alittle more about them. and the people that have them can talk to other VV owners about there problems! :beers:
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I'd be especially interested to know anything about anyone fitting the big bore kit in the red-top motor.
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Chris H in the UK has a VV motor with the 442 kit not mine but TTS performace kit there pistons are heavier than mine! mine weigh a gram heavier than stock. http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/tts.shtml :stickpoke:
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having not riden a normal bandit I cant compare the two but I can describe mine.
Somewhere between 7and 8K the valves change them selves over and the bike seems to take on a second wind, sounds much more meaty as well once the change has been made, If youre hovering in the change region they change almost instantly like switching on and off, tugging at your wrists when it switches.
The surge isnt too sharp, I am always aware when its likely to happen when cornering and it isnt too much of an issue if I let it switch when lent over.
The only other thing to note is that the difference is much less noticable with the ti system on; I swapped for the stock system for my MOT i dont think mine is really road legal. With the stock system the throttle response was much slower, with a noticeable decrease in acceleration and more noticable cam changes.
well thats my take on the valves, would be great to hear from someone who has ridden both.
Matt
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Thanks matt , was waiting on you! havent heard from you in a while Its hard to answer questions on something that only a few have!
thought this section might help people out!
cheers
Jay
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ive been pretty busy recently, got a summer job which im putting a lot of effort in to so im not on the net as much as I am when at uni!
Im also commuting on the bandit so its getting lots more use than normal, which cant be a bad thing
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glad to hear fromn you, that BET TI pipe you got was it for a regular bandit or specifically for the VV?
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I own a VV bandit and I also havent ridden a non-VV bandit so cant comment on the differences.
The VV bandit goes really well for a 400, I used to own a zx6r and while the bandit would have no chance of keeping up over 80mph, up to 70mph it feels just as quick off the lights as my ninja was. I agree about the big change that you feel when the VV kicks in, theres decent pull up to 6000rpm, then from 6-8000rpm you feel a noticeable dip which can catch you out if you arent ready for it. Then once you reach 8000rpm it suddenly kicks in, the motor really growls and it just absolutely takes off
:grin: .
I went to have a new set of tyres fitted today and the mechanic there was actually trying to fix a knackered VV bandit. The guy had bought it on ebay and was tearing his hair out beacuse it was so complicated to work on! He called it an ' over-engineered piece of crap', bit harsh maybe!
Mine has run beautifully ever since I bought it though, and I think for a 13 year old bike its superb. I'm kind of dreading the big service as I reckon most garages wont have a clue how to adjust the valves and will refuse to do it, but I might be wrong!
Overall though, very good bike. The VV kick at 8000rpm means you can pootle to work keeping it under 6000rpm and you have good midrange for when you are being lazy, then when you want to play you can rev it past 8k and have some fun :wink:
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Anyone have a pic of a VV camshaft :stickpoke:
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Hi guys, Ive got the bandit 400 vv and have also had a '91 slingshot bandit 400.
I thought the older model seemed quicker, but i like the power delivery on the v-tec engine.
Also, I agree that the bandit 400 will beat most things from the lights. I always race larger bikes and always win up to about 60-70ish, as guys on bigger bikes dont like to do full rev and drop clutch in first gear as they might flip the bike. Not much chance of that on the b4, but it does give me that extra edge. Also its wicked through the corners.
I love the styling of the v-tec, in comparison to my mates suzuki '00 gsf-600 and the old style bandit, it really does show what a budget/bargin bin bike the 600 is. My '96 b4 v, has better brakes (4 pot vs 2), clip ons, aluminium swing arm, fuel guage, larger under-seat storage, aluminium front and rear sets.......the list goes on!!
I wouldnt buy a bandit 600 over my 400 any day. especially with my gsx-r 400 SP braced swingarm comming. LOL
Cheers
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Hi, can any of the other b4 vv owners maybe tell me what the standard main jet size is and what size main jets you are running in your bikes. I am having a bit of a problem with my bike and the only manual I can find for the vv model is for the 97 vv, according to this the main jet size is 90, I'm just wondering if this is the same on all vv bandits.
Thanks
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Hi, I'm having some serious problems with my vv bandit. When In high gears I`m going past 8k rpm on full throttle my bikes loses power and does not want to go any faster. In the lower gears I can also feel a slight hesitation when running full throttle at 8k rpm but once past about 10k rpm it pulls like a train again. I was wondering if any of the other vv model owners have had the same/similar problem. This also gets worse as the bike gets hotter so I am thinking maybe the oil becomes too thin when it gets hot and because of that the oil does not have enough pressure to activate the vv system. At first I thought I was running rich but I changed my jets from 100 to 90 and I still have the same problem. I would really appreciate it if someone could help me with this, it`s driving me crazy. Could any other vv model owners please tell me what kind/specification oil they are running. Does too much/too little oil maybe also cause this kind of problem? I am currently running putoline 10w-40 semi-synthetic oil. I am really hoping that maybe my problem is somehow connected to this. Otherwise I don't know what I'm gonna do!!!
Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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maybe valve adjustment or throttle postition sensor/ cam sensor?
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I also thought about that, but wouldn`t the valve adjustment cause it to get worse as the revs goes higher instead of getting better again after 10k rpm?
Also I cant' find a throttle position sensor, or reference to this in any manuals, but it does have a cam sensor, but this looks fine to me as it is only a simple switch. And again if this was not working as it should I would tend to think that it would be getting even worse at higher revs instead of getting better again after 10k rpm?
Is it possible that this could possibly be caused by faulty plug leads/plugs or incorrect plug gaps? The main thing that bothers me about this is the fact that it gets better again as the revs get higher, and also the fact that it performs better when not fully warmed up yet. According to me all things would cause it to run even worse if the revs goes higher, instead of better as I am experiencing in the lower rev ranges?
This is just my opinion, let me know what you think.
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i would check the valve adjustment still
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So I checked my oil again to day to see if this could be the problem. I saw that there was a bit too much and drained some of it. To my srprise the oil was very thin, much thinner than I expected and smelled like petrol. Is this normal? I don't think so. What is the main cause of fuel in the engine mixing with oil? Maybe if I can figure this out, correct it and put in some new oil my problems will go away. I really hope this is my problem.
Can anyone please give me suggestions as to what might be causing the petrol in my oil?
Thanks
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leaking fuel tap, carb o-rings or worn valves
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So I checked my oil again to day to see if this could be the problem. I saw that there was a bit too much and drained some of it. To my srprise the oil was very thin, much thinner than I expected and smelled like petrol. Is this normal? I don't think so. What is the main cause of fuel in the engine mixing with oil? Maybe if I can figure this out, correct it and put in some new oil my problems will go away. I really hope this is my problem.
Can anyone please give me suggestions as to what might be causing the petrol in my oil?
Thanks
Can't give you any more pointers than GK75 has done already, but you want to keep a careful eye on it. I blew the engine on my old Honda 250 because the fuel tap was knackered and petrol got into the oil and thinned it down.
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:motorsmile:
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brilliant bike, wonderful
Jap import, 1998 400cc V-Tec
working on some carbing problems,
i'm after what's gonna give me best results, say i want to get the bandit running with as fluent a exhaust system as possible (what's gonna be best wanting to be able to use weekdays as well as weekend rides), mod the gear switch to derestrict or PREFERABLY get derestriction box, (what would i gain from polishing the ports), the valves are meant to be set at 0.10 -0.20 mm my question should it be in the middle of these two measurements or should it be closer to 0.10 or 0.20?
the carbs, what's gonna be best jet kit wanting to be able to use weekdays as well as weekend rides, what's best way to ensure i have carb fueling best as possible ?
where do i get best air filter to suit rest of bike setup (can only find 91-95 K&N)
modifying airbox
Running standard as of now but looking toward the future :grin:
and any other ways you think i can impove the bandit
not on road so not in hurry
try to sort handling and tyres etc etc later on
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Factory pro
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Hay guys the VV's are a mine field!!! the early ones got same carbs as the jap spec non VV 102.5 mains but have a throttle sensor on the right side (red,green,black wires) later ones 90 mains. the Valve mech operates between 8000 n 10000rpm this varies between bikes,mine about 10000, you should clearly hear the actuator work. The top end cam has the same profile as the nonV and its the low cam that fills the bottom end out making the VV quick off the mark, you cannot tune the cam profile as they are tied into each other and the ignitor unit switchin between the two,where as you can tune the nonV much easier,you can slot the cam sprokets tho and play about that way.Ive got an early M model, this has VValves on the inlet and exhaust cams, other models only have a variable inlet cam. If you are going to do valve adjustment be very carful as you have to adjust the valves for low side clearance, high side clearence and sub rocker arm adjustment(this is the clearance between high and low followers) and these adjustments must be within 0.05mm of each other!!!!!!!!! i think there is 24 adjustments for each cam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The standard exhaust is restrictive, bad welds at the top(inside) and there is a steel inner pipe within the 2inch collector, this tyers and suspension are the best way to make em quicker. mine made 58bhp with a race can on but with the big bore, head flow and full system makes 65 true bhp but runs on superunleaded,story is if you working on your own bike you need to get as much info on that model and most jap imports VV's did'nt get serviced by the importer cuz they did'nt know how!!!
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I want to see the dyno chart
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Will do Jay, i got print outs frm the dyno shop, will lend scanner frm bro then put it on for you m8, you will also be able to see how the low cam fills out the bottom end.
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yours is not restricted goes by the 112
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Soz m8 not sure what ya mean please expand.
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your bike is derestricted right?
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yer Jay its full power, originally just the resistor across the gear wire/sidestand wire carnt remember which! but now got a Daytona electronic thingy fro Japan that connects into the Variable valve system, it deresricts the motor and also alters the timing of the ignition and the time at which the VV switches, its pritty cool as the box fits on your top yoke and can be switched on and off. Does anyone know if you can get the 33mm carbs to fit the VV?
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what resistor did you use?
A
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Sounds like the box i sold mike...
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lol i don't know what that box is meant to do but it certainly isn't for derestricting the cdi ive got even though it does plug inusing the normal connectors. doesnt seem to effect the top gear restriction or the rev limiter.
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LOL, i think Jay sold you an empty box! run a google search for cdi progressor, they made them for loads of 400/250s, M-parts and POSH also made them for home market racers, mine works ok. The resistor was 1.5K ohms i think? its light blue with brown/green/black/brown color rating, you could check the net for colors to be 100%, think it connects to the green/yellow wire under the seat but bike is in 1000 peices at mo so cannot check! i think it kids the cdi into thinkin its always in a low gear, im sure 4th and above restrict the motor.
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sounds right. thanks.
A
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Hi guys,
I got now a Bandit 400 V too!
Probably it is the only one in germany :congrats:
Its year is 95. Here´s a picture for you:
klick to enlarge
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9408/img0312k.th.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0312k.jpg)
Poorly I got a problem, I have the manual for the 97s engine that has just the IN-cam
variable.
Mine is a 95 and the IN-cam and the EX-cam are variable.
I need the valve clearances for the older VC engine to check my valve clearances,
cause I´m not sure if they are the same with the newer models on the IN-cam-side.
And I also need the clearances for the EX-cam-side, too.
Please help, I just sold everything I had to buy that little girl :thumb:
and when I looked under her headcover I got really sick, but no other
one will touch it :trustme:
greets from germany
Jens
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Ask away Jens,
Ive rebuilt 2 VV's and can do them in my sleep. You got the first gen VV and the inlet gap is 0.10/0.20mm and ex is 0.20/0.25mm. You have to set the low cam/center cam to within spec using the large main shim, the cam needs to be set in the low position (all the way counterclock wise). Then set the cam to the high position (all the way clock wise)and set the two outer high cams with the small top hat shims, these are not obviouse and a pain to do they are also only available from japan and must be within 0.05mm of each other. Then after both cams are set you must set the cam back to the low setting and set the gap between low and high using the old style nut and pin, again to within 0.05mm, this is the gap you measure for the high setting BUT with the cam in the LOW setting, you need a VERY small 8mm tool for this, i got a small 8mm bit that fits in hex screwdriver and then groung it down till it fitted in . All gaps MUST be the same, so say a loose 0.15mm inlet 'set COLD' and a loose 0.20mm exhaust. The VV is a great idea but such a pain to do that they never took off due to service bills being 10 times that of normal valves. Also you need to take the radiator off, the thermostate housing, the coils and the cover gasket is not the same as the non VV. Hope this has not put you off as once youve done one its not too bad and the VV is a cracking motorcycle.
Chris.
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Hi Chris,
thanks for the clearances.
The normal B4 I know pretty well, my brother has one, my girlfriend has one, I´m builiding
one for myself with a RGV250 USD, B12 swingarm, 5,5 rearwheel and Ducati Monster seat.
We do all the things by ourselves.
Also I already looked under the head cover of my new toy, but I got there a few problems,
because I just had the clearances for the 97VV and I don´t have the special tool to
turn the cams in low and high position.
But maybe I can modify something myself to use it for.
Now that I´ve got the clearances I can start to check the engine exactly.
It´s really important to handle it well, cause I won´t get any party for this
engine in germany.
May you show me some photos of your rebuild bikes?
best regards jens
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(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/ChrisHank/P1010561.jpg)
Hi Jens,
No air box or headlight on in the picture. The bike is finished now but no picture at the moment. Regarding the tool for the cam position i just made one as the Suzi one is £90. Its 9mm cross the flats but a spanner is not so good. Use the screw that holds the throttle outer cable in the right hand switch housing and put it through the HT coil spacer and you got a tool. Forgot to say that the exhaust is reverse of the inlet regarding clockwise now becomes anticlockwise because when the inlet turns clockwise or to the high setting the exhaust is going in the other direction and get your head around this as you can set everything and anything with the cam in the wrong position giving incorrect results. I just write all the shim sizes down first and then swop them around so you only need to buy a few new shims and the low side shims are standard ones used by loads of manufacturers so take one in your local and see if they will swop for different size needed.
Chris.
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Nice One :congrats: :clap: :thumb:
what size is the rear wheel? stock front end?
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Started with GSXR400 gk73a sp 1989 complete rear end and front wheel, goes straight in-linkages, shock, everything, 160/60-17 and front 120/60-17 still using B4 discs. It makes a massive difference to the B4. Then went thundercat6 forks with spacers and one off 298mm discs as picture, altho ive just fitted B12 310mm's with caliper spacers as they fit the B4/GSXR wheel. The rear is the way to go, super simple and really suits the B4 but you got to get the 1989 rear as the 88 has 18" wheel and poor rubber. You can also use Mk1 SV650 wheels in 4.5" and 3.5", same discs/fittings.
Chris.
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(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/ChrisHank/P1010561.jpg)
Wow that is sexy! How can I do that to my worn out Bandit? I have a VV too but I want to clean it up nice. I'm here in BC, Canada and there aren't many bikes like it and I have decided to keep it now instead of sell it. I will be taking it to a mechanic for most of mechanical stuff if I need as I'm not mechanically incline but any ideas and help you could give would be most appreciated.
Cheers!!
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hey,
how much could cost vv engine? is it fit into gk75a year1995 frame?
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oo, just spotted the MJ youv'e listed above .
I have a VV 400VR .
I have been having running problems , intermitent running on 1 , and some times 3.
i remember the first time i tooke the carbs off ,it had 105's in 2 of the carbs ( cant remember which )
and 102.5's in the other 2.
As the manuals i had said 102.5's i swopped out he 2 105's for 102.5's .
Now i see ur listing them as suposed to be in there ?? .
I have been testing by spraying water on the pipes as they bend down from the barrels .
last time i took the carbs off and refitted, i had ( lets call it 'fizzal' ) on all 4 pipes on first start.
I got the bike to be back gate and while opening it, the bike stalled ( put the stand down while holding clutch in still in gear ).
got the bike out the front and restarted but now i not got fizzal on pipe 1. its hot, but not enough to make the water fizzal.
I go to me mums anyway.
when i get back i fizzal test again, and now its not fizzaling on 1 & 3 ??.
Next day its back to just 1, not fizzalin .
Do i need to put the 105's back in ?
I have a Fuel end can im planing on putting on, ( DB thing removed ) so will need to up the MJ a little, 2.5 - 5 ?
will they have to be odd sizes too ?
Jay
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My B4VC ran 102.5 on all mains, never had 105's in and with 102.5's it always ran a little rich. If you are not getting clean running on some of the cylinders and have good sparks it will be pilot jets, had my bike do the same last week and the No.1 pilot jet had a microscopic piece of dirt in it.
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OK, just about to go out and take the carbs off yet again .
One thing about these Pilot Jets / Screws .
Do they have an effect on the bike above idling ?
After looking it up in the manual, and not sure im understanding it all properly
The Slow System lists all the pilot stuff as if its for tick over / idle .
& the Main System lists the Main , Air & Needle Jets are for when u rev the bike.
Im just curious ,as the #1 down pipe dont get 'fizzal' hot on idle or revving.
jay.
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Its not so simple because the pilot system flows all the time so has an effect on the main jet, plus the B4 pilot jet gets its fuel supply from from the main jet/emulsion tube system and not direct from the main float bowl, this means if any part is not spotless you can get bad running. The Suzi 400's are well known for their carbs being very easily upset and ive had the very problem youve got only a couple of weeks ago due to a piece of dirt in the pilot jet.
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Cool ,Cheers.
I never went out the other day after all.
( put the bike in the garden & took the tank off , 3 saturdays ago now )
Thats as far as i got , and i just keep looking at it, then walking away.
Sick of keep taking carbs off ever so offen.
Finaly went out to it yesterday , (Sunday) .
Set up me little test petrol tank ( got it hanging up on a pole above the clocks ).
Started the bike up, with no air box on ( just to see if i could see in the carbs , ) see if i could see anything going on.
Couldn't really see anything , so did the fizzal test on the down pipes.
No fizzal on #1 & #3
Ripped the carbs off, #1 had some wierd gel / goo in the float bowl .
Took out the float part , MJ , little black plug and the jet thing under it ( about 1cm long , pointy at 1 end ) , is this the pilot jet ? .
Took the top cap off , diaphragm & spring, piston valve with the needle in it .
Tried to take the emu.. white bit out by putting the MJ in a bit and taping it .
The Emu thing stayed put but the needle jet did pop out a little bit into the main middle chamber.
It doesn't want to come all the way out, and i dont want to pull on it too hard incase something brakes.
Proceeded to blast every thing with carb cleaner.
All nooks and crannys , holes and gaps.
Put it all back together.
Then the same for the other 3.
Carb #3 was same as #1
Carbs #2 & #4 were clean , and no little goo blobs.
Put the carbs back on and connect up me test tank.
I now got Fizzal on #1 ,2 & 4 , but not on #3 pipe.
I let it idle , and rev'd a little . #3 pipe gets hot, but dont fizzal on testing.
SO take the carbs off again ( dont disconnect all the cables and wires this time ) ,just flip them over.
Double check #3 again , pilot and main , float hight , every thing seams clear and correct.
Put them back on , but still no fizzal on #3.
Give up and cover it back up again.
* just a side note .
I find spraying a fine jet of water on the down pipes for the fizzal test, the quickest and easyest way to see if its working.
If it dont fizzal, theres something wrong .....
Cheers for reading .
Jay