Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: benallenuk on October 30, 2006, 12:05:58 PM
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Hi guys, I'm having some problems with the battery on my bike.
For the past few months, the bike has seemed more and more sluggish when starting. Over the last week or so i have had to take the Fuse out of the headlight so not to put such a power drain on the battery, it would just about turn the engine over.
I finally decided to get a new battery on friday, charged it then replaced with the one on the bike. Ive just ridden 40 or so miles today, i stopped then reatarted the bike and it seemed that there was the slugguist starter motor sound, but before the long trip it was fine, started quick and easy.
Another thing ive noticed is that the Voltage measured over the battery at 1500rpm is around 14.1volts but around 12.8volts at 3-6000rpm. The headlights also dimms when revving the bike in neutral.
Whats up? Is the stator knackard or is the regulator shot?? Has an old battery (5 or so years) killed the regulator?
Cheers
Ben
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Whats up? Is the stator knackard or is the regulator shot?? Has an old battery (5 or so years) killed the regulator?
Run through this test : http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html
It will help you find out where the problem is. Make sure that the battery is fully charged first, and having a second set of hands really helps here. You -can- do it alone, it's just easier with a helper.
Oh, and if you do figure out that it's the regulator, post here before you buy a new one. There are tons of ways to save $$$ on the regulator.
Pitter? Can we sticky the electrosport link somewhere? Since the B4 has a common regulator issue, this is valuable info everyone should have.
That link saved me hundreds of dollars the first time I used it. The shop I called wanted to change my stator without testing anything. I had a loose connection. Then when my regulator did fail, I knew it was the regulator, and replaced only that.
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Hi guys, I'm having some problems with the battery on my bike.
For the past few months, the bike has seemed more and more sluggish when starting. Over the last week or so i have had to take the Fuse out of the headlight so not to put such a power drain on the battery, it would just about turn the engine over.
I finally decided to get a new battery on friday, charged it then replaced with the one on the bike. Ive just ridden 40 or so miles today, i stopped then reatarted the bike and it seemed that there was the slugguist starter motor sound, but before the long trip it was fine, started quick and easy.
Another thing ive noticed is that the Voltage measured over the battery at 1500rpm is around 14.1volts but around 12.8volts at 3-6000rpm. The headlights also dimms when revving the bike in neutral.
Whats up? Is the stator knackard or is the regulator shot?? Has an old battery (5 or so years) killed the regulator?
Cheers
Ben
I have the exact same problem as you! I already went somewhat through the Electro sport manual thing.
On Mine I measured the AC Voltage from the "alternator" and it was 71 volts through all 3 yellow wires.
The alternator works fine. I think the Regulator is old and not doing its job properly anymore.
Anyone know where I can get a reg/rec for cheap?
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I have the exact same problem as you! I already went somewhat through the Electro sport manual thing.
On Mine I measured the AC Voltage from the "alternator" and it was 71 volts through all 3 yellow wires.
The alternator works fine. I think the Regulator is old and not doing its job properly anymore.
Anyone know where I can get a reg/rec for cheap?
waddya mean you somewhat went through it? Did you do the test for the regulator portion? You can test that without the bike on as I recall. (so the stator will not affect the reading) The stator putting out more than 50 volts at 5000rpm is a GOOD thing.
If you want to change one connector, you can buy a regulator rectifier for a CB400 from a Honda dealer (often in stock) for about half of list for the Bandit 400 R/R. That means the price of used from a wrecker for a new one. This is what I'm using on my B4 right now. It's been going strong now for nearly 2 years. Any 5 wire R/R will work, as long as it comes from a bike with similar stator output. The only caveat is if the R/R is significantly larger (larger is better than smaller, more surface area to disipate heat) then you may have to find another place to mount it. The CB400 r that I got fit the space the old one was removed from with the exception that I was only able to put one screw in. I safety wired the other screw hole, so it's not going anywhere.
I would really make sure that's the problem, and not a loose connection before you spend $100+ on a part you may not need.
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By somewhat I mean I followed it to the point which I couldnt figure out how to do. I completed the other sections but the part with the DIODE test puzzled me. The Test for the Stator and Rotor were fine.
Although I did notice that the Black/White and Red wire Coupling was extremely filled with grease, dirty black grease. I cleaned it out as much as I could.
When I said 71 Volts through all three i meant that its a good thing because the service manual says it should be 70Volts or higher.
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So wait, You can do the PART "C" without the bike being on?
I never did Part C
But the other ones turned out good so I thought the Problem must be the RR
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So wait, You can do the PART "C" without the bike being on?
I never did Part C
But the other ones turned out good so I thought the Problem must be the RR
Sure you can. The first sentence in Part C is "Disconnect the RR from the bike", you wouldn't disconnect part of the charging system while it was running, would you? That could be illuminating. :stickpoke:
What part C will show you is if the RR is at fault. If it is NOT at fault, and the stator, and connections have checked out, the very bottom of the test says: "As this was the last test, the only thing that can be at fault is the battery itself. replace it with a known good fully charged battery and return to start."
I wouldn't go replacing parts til you go ALL the way through that test. Otherwise you might find yourself getting bit in the @ss. If it turns out to be the RR, then you know you guessed well, AND don't have to worry about not being able to take an electrical part back. If it turns out to be the battery, then you're not stuck with a part you can't return.
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Sounds like the Regulator to me too, I had a similar problem last year and a new Regulator has fixed it.
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By somewhat I mean I followed it to the point which I couldnt figure out how to do. I completed the other sections but the part with the DIODE test puzzled me. The Test for the Stator and Rotor were fine.
Although I did notice that the Black/White and Red wire Coupling was extremely filled with grease, dirty black grease. I cleaned it out as much as I could.
Do you have a diode setting on your multimeter? Some don't. What was it that puzzled you?
The coupling should have some di-electric grease in it. clean it out, but make sure you replace some. The grease displaces water, protecting the electrical connection.
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My Multimeter does have a Diode setting but when I tried to do the test, the Digital Meter would show nothing at all. I dont know for sure But I think I left the engine running, Could this have something to do with it?
Anyway, Im gonna do Diode test again soon.
Hey benallenuk, sorry for hijacking your thread but it seems like we both have the same problem and possibly the same solution, although I recommend you do the tests too.
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My Multimeter does have a Diode setting but when I tried to do the test, the Digital Meter would show nothing at all. I dont know for sure But I think I left the engine running, Could this have something to do with it?
Anyway, Im gonna do Diode test again soon.
Hey benallenuk, sorry for hijacking your thread but it seems like we both have the same problem and possibly the same solution, although I recommend you do the tests too.
I would think it might have something to do with it. The diode should stop power from being able to flow backwards. If the bike was running, there's a chance that it will skew the results.
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I just did the Diode test again.
No Matter which Combination I used for Part C, the Meter stayed at "1"
For the first Combination, the Fault Finder guide says that if its 1.00volt then the RR is at fault, could this be true for my case?
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I just did the Diode test again.
No Matter which Combination I used for Part C, the Meter stayed at "1"
For the first Combination, the Fault Finder guide says that if its 1.00volt then the RR is at fault, could this be true for my case?
Ok,.. for two of the four tests, the meter should read 1. "OL" would be the same as "1" on most meters.
Try continuing on with the test.
That confused the hell out of me the first time too.
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I completed all four of them and got a "1" or "OL" for each and every one of them, Now im confused even more
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I completed all four of them and got a "1" or "OL" for each and every one of them, Now im confused even more
If that's true, and you reversed the leads like it said to in the test, then I'd say that the RR is pooched.
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http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfault.htm
Suzuki makes a great motorcycle but they have crap-tacular electronics. I'll be testing my bike tomorrow with this test as I had to bump-start it today after it had: started and ran (10 miles or so) and then was shut off and battery was flat trying to kick it back over.
Ironically, it started up fine the rest of the day (how does this happen?)
-Randy
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Ironically, it started up fine the rest of the day (how does this happen?)
-Randy
Check to see if your battery connections are loose! If one of the connectors are loose sometimes it'll start fine, other times it won't, depending on how attached the connector is to the battery.
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ok, done the rests and here are my results
Voltage over battery at 2500rpm = 13.2volts
voltage over battery at 5000rpm = 12.84volts
Voltage straight from stator at 5000rpm > 80v on all 3 wires
also did a ac generator continuity check, all fine.
When checking the regulator/rectifier resistances I couldnt get a reading from my multimeter. set on ohms on auto range. nothing.
I was hoping for 3.5Kohms between yellow 1-3 and red, and 3.5Kohms between b/w and yellow 1-3
whats up? Do the results above sugguest anything?
cheers
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When checking the regulator/rectifier resistances I couldnt get a reading from my multimeter. set on ohms on auto range. nothing.
I was hoping for 3.5Kohms between yellow 1-3 and red, and 3.5Kohms between b/w and yellow 1-3
whats up? Do the results above sugguest anything?
cheers
What is the "auto range"??
Ok,.. this is the test in the service manual? The results suggest that you don't have "the Suzuki" tester. If you don't, you will not get the results you're looking for. I've tried it. It even notes this on page 6-4 of the tests you were doing.
Seriously, go to the link that I posted, print out that test and run through it. Charge your battery up first though with a battery charger. It doesn't look 100% charged to me right now.
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I did part "C" again.
For the first test I got a "1" nothing else just "1" on the left side of the screen
for the second test I got around 560-590 for the 3 yellows <-(There was no decimal point or anything... just 560 on the right side of the screen. It says in the sheet it should be 0.50 and it says it should be 0.50 on my multimeter instruction book too! but I got 560 - five hundred sixty)
for the third test I got "1" again, just a "1" on the left side of the screen.
For the fourth test i got same results as the second one
When I switched the multimeter to Diode Test, it says "1" on the left side of screen way before I touch anything with the leads. Then when I did the "first" one and the "third" one, The number just stayed at "1", didnt flicker, move or anything.
help me
does this mean my rec/reg is fcuked?
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I did part "C" again.
For the first test I got a "1" nothing else just "1" on the left side of the screen
for the second test I got around 560-590 for the 3 yellows <-(There was no decimal point or anything... just 560 on the right side of the screen. It says in the sheet it should be 0.50 and it says it should be 0.50 on my multimeter instruction book too! but I got 560 - five hundred sixty)
for the third test I got "1" again, just a "1" on the left side of the screen.
For the fourth test i got same results as the second one
When I switched the multimeter to Diode Test, it says "1" on the left side of screen way before I touch anything with the leads. Then when I did the "first" one and the "third" one, The number just stayed at "1", didnt flicker, move or anything.
help me
does this mean my rec/reg is fcuked?
looks to me like your RR is fine. The way that test is, you shoulld get 2 sets of readings. one set is"1" or "OL" and one set is .5V (or, 500ish mV.) This is exactly what you got.
FYI, my meter reads exactly the same as yours does.
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Hmmm... What could possibly be the problem then?
I was kinda hoping it was the RR so I would have an easy fix. Looks like thats not the case.
Do you have any suggestions?
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Hmmm... What could possibly be the problem then?
I was kinda hoping it was the RR so I would have an easy fix. Looks like thats not the case.
Do you have any suggestions?
Have you gone all the way through that test? It should point out the problem. If all the tests have passed then read the box at the very bottom of page 3.
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I took the Battery to a Shop and they said it was perfectly fine.
Im gonna do the Whole test again tomorrow and report back to you.
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Oh I forgot to ask one thing:
How do I perform a continuitiy test?
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no answer?
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a continuitiy test bascially tests if a connection is present. Ie is a connected to b.
If you put ur meter onto the symbol for a diode, a black triangle with a verticle line on the end, touch the probes together you will get a zero.
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Hey Benallenuk, have you found out what your problem is yet?
And other people. When I check the AC Voltage on Idle it says 30Volts for each wire. And when around 5000rpm it says 71 Volts. I was wondering. Is 30Volts for Idle too low is it fine?
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AC voltage?
Try checking DC going across the battery at idle and 5000 rpm and report back.
Try reading through this thread. It got me though my charging problems and will give you an idea of what DC voltage the regulator should be pumping to the battery.
http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=5831&highlight=regulator
:monkeymoon:
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when the bike is completely warmed up. My battery is at around 14-14.1 volts at idle. Then the higher I rev the bike, the lower the volts get. When I reach 5000 the volts are around 12
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Sounds like you've got a problem. It should be higher then 12v at 5000 rpm.
It could be your regulator or generator.
Seeing that your generator is pumping out 71v AC (manual says 70V is good) then it's most likely a failed regulator. I don't think anyone on here has had a failed generator, but lots of RRs have gone bad. Fairly easy to replace. The early 90's gs500 regulator is the same and should be easy to find.
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Sounds like you've got a problem. It should be higher then 12v at 5000 rpm.
It could be your regulator or generator.
Seeing that your generator is pumping out 71v AC (manual says 70V is good) then it's most likely a failed regulator. I don't think anyone on here has had a failed generator, but lots of RRs have gone bad. Fairly easy to replace. The early 90's gs500 regulator is the same and should be easy to find.
Geez I wish I would have written some of this stuff down when I was doing the tests regularly.
The RR for a GS500 hasn't changed as I recall. That means that you should be able to get an RR from any year of GS500. Compare them when you see the new one, they're identical. I was looking for one from a 2004 when I needed one.
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I found this question and answer from the www.thegsresources.com
My bike seems to charge OK on idle and slightly up, but when the revs rise up to, say, 4000 RPM, the voltage on the battery poles starts to drop down. What's wrong here?
It seems at this point as if your stator doesn't have a complete shortage, but the insulation has deteriorated enough to cause a leak under load, as is the case when the revs rise, since the stator would then generate more power.
If the rectifier/regulator is still okay at this point, you will probably want to replace your stator right away, since when the stator blows, it'll probably fry the diodes in the rectifier. But on the other hand, this might, on a GS, well be caused by the phenomenon as described in the theory story, so this might be a very bad omen. Check your commonsense (and your bank account).
The problem sounds similar but my stator is putting out enuff voltage so I have no Idea whats going on. I tested the Reg/Rec and it tested fine according to that one electrosport charging guide.
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Ironically, it started up fine the rest of the day (how does this happen?)
Bad connection. I said it before, I'll say it again - Run through the electrosport test, it also pinpoints bad connections.
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I took the Battery to a Shop and they said it was perfectly fine.
Im gonna do the Whole test again tomorrow and report back to you.
Did they just check the voltage on the battery, or did they load test it. 2 different things. How old is the battery?
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when the bike is completely warmed up. My battery is at around 14-14.1 volts at idle. Then the higher I rev the bike, the lower the volts get. When I reach 5000 the volts are around 12
That doesn't seem right. According to the test it should get higher ( to a point) as the engine revs. That almost says to me that there's a draw somewhere. What is it at 2500rpm?
Seems to me that if the test is saying that the charging system is OK, you have the bike bleeding off power somewhere else, or have a bad battery ( see my previous comment about testing the battery.) Do you have a friend with a known good battery that you can do the test with?
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Im not sure how they tested the battery, I just gave it to the guy, he took it to his shop, couple minutes later, he came back and said "the battery is perfectly fine-just needs a charge"
I also dont know how old the battery is because I just bought this motorcycle so it could be anywhere from 15 years old to brand new. Although, I got all the major receipts from the previous owners and none of them indicated a new battery. So I dont know.
The voltage at 2500 rpm is about 13.7.
Unfortunately, none of my friends have motorcycles and so none have battery's.
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Im not sure how they tested the battery, I just gave it to the guy, he took it to his shop, couple minutes later, he came back and said "the battery is perfectly fine-just needs a charge"
The voltage at 2500 rpm is about 13.7.
Did you charge it up before running the tests? The results will be weird unless the battery is fully charged to begin with. The battery being low will skew the results as it "pulls" power to charge.
So the voltage is a little high at 2500rpm,... hmmm....
Have you checked all of your connections, and made sure they all have dielectric grease in them?
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i have stators 4 sale lol
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Did you charge it up before running the tests? The results will be weird unless the battery is fully charged to begin with. The battery being low will skew the results as it "pulls" power to charge.
So the voltage is a little high at 2500rpm,... hmmm....
Have you checked all of your connections, and made sure they all have dielectric grease in them?
I fully charged it before I did the tests.
The 3 yellow wire connecter didnt have any di-electric grease but the black/white, red connecter did.
I have some more interesting info.
Today, I tried starting it at around 12pm, it seemed like the battery was gonna die, the cranks got slower and slower It was like turn...........turn...............turn...............
turn
so I held the throttle a bit and it got a lil faster, this time it was like
turn..........turn...........turn..........turn
I still held the throttle and eventually it was like:
turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn
but still didnt start so i gave up and push started it. Fired right up. went around the block, left it to idle for 1 min on my driveway and then turned it off.
Brought it back in my garage and then decided to try to start it with electric start again. so I turn the key, press the button and right away it starts. At this time im amazed so i turn it off and do it again. It starts again!! so I go for a ride again :) then I park it in the garage and leave it there for until 5PM, at 5PM I start it again and it starts with no fuss :)
so I went to this one store to get something, I park it in the parking lot, i take about five minutes, i come back to go back home and i press the electric start; It starts fast but not as fast as it did the first 3 times.
And just incase for those of you wondering<- I did use the choke the first time, but it still didnt work
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The 3 yellow wire connecter didnt have any di-electric grease but the black/white, red connecter did.
A little grease might not hurt there either
I have some more interesting info.
Today, I tried starting it at around 12pm, it seemed like the battery was gonna die, the cranks got slower and slower It was like turn...........turn...............turn...............
turn
so I held the throttle a bit and it got a lil faster, this time it was like
turn..........turn...........turn..........turn
I still held the throttle and eventually it was like:
turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn..turn
This is screaming out starter to me. Is there a test in the service manual for this? That's a classic symptom on a car when the starter is failing. It draws huge current, and it sounds like it won't start. Often if you hold it longer it will speed up and start. With a bike, the CCA of a battery is usually small enough, it may kill the battery first instead. It's usually especially bad on the first start of the day, cos it's been sitting for hours and hours.
but still didnt start so i gave up and push started it. Fired right up. went around the block, left it to idle for 1 min on my driveway and then turned it off.
Just think of all the muscles you're building by having to push start?:stickpoke: That was my first year with the B4 too. I can't remember what the end cause was though. I think it was battery.
so I went to this one store to get something, I park it in the parking lot, i take about five minutes, i come back to go back home and i press the electric start; It starts fast but not as fast as it did the first 3 times.
Not as much time for the battery to "recover"...
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I forgot to mention:
The Starter started turning faster when I opened the throttle a bit, when it was closed it was dieing down
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but even if it was the starter, that cant explain why the battery voltage drops as the revs get higher
I noticed another thing also.
When I rev the bike up to 5000rpm the voltage is around 12 but when i immediately let go of the throttle, the voltage on the battery jumps back to 14.XX
When I rev up to 10K, and let go, the voltage jumps to a number higher than when i let go at 5000rpm
although it never goes past 15volts
just some more info so we can figure out the problem :beers:
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The Starter started turning faster when I opened the throttle a bit, when it was closed it was dieing down
Was the starter turning faster, or the engine firing more??
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Starter turning faster.
If the engine fired, wouldnt that mean that the engine would start?
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but even if it was the starter, that cant explain why the battery voltage drops as the revs get higher
No it doesn't. I still think this is battery related.
When I rev up to 10K, and let go, the voltage jumps to a number higher than when i let go at 5000rpm
although it never goes past 15volts
Maybe it's just pissed at you for free revving it that hard? I'm not sure how much science there is in that, since we don't have any expected behaviour for that sort of action.
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Starter turning faster.
If the engine fired, wouldnt that mean that the engine would start?
Nope. It means that it's close, but not necessarily that it will start. As spark and gas are delivered to the combustion chamber, there is an explosion, but if there aren't enough in a small enough time frame to get the engine moving, it's just a lot of fanfare for an almost start.
I am sure that when I had the same problem that I replaced the battery and everything was fine.
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is there anyway to find out what year the battery was made just by the words on the battery?
These batteries are a pretty big expense. How much did u buy yours for?
When the engine turns and theres a spark, there is usually a "popping" sound coming from the exhaust, isnt there?
When I was holding the starter, there was no popping sound at all, just the faint sound coming from the exhaust pipe and the sound of the starter whining
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is there anyway to find out what year the battery was made just by the words on the battery?
These batteries are a pretty big expense. How much did u buy yours for?
Not that I know of. My battery is a "cheapie" made by ( or for) Parts Canada (same as part unlimited) If you're in the US, I'd assume that you should be able to get the same battery. I paid something like $53Cdn for mine.
When the engine turns and theres a spark, there is usually a "popping" sound coming from the exhaust, isnt there?
When I was holding the starter, there was no popping sound at all, just the faint sound coming from the exhaust pipe and the sound of the starter whining
There can be noise, but it's a pretty small one with a 400cc engine. I'd liken it to running your thumb over a comb, but a little lower pitched.
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im in canada too :motorsmile:
In ontario,
where can i get this battery? for $53 seems like a good way of atleast trying
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Some of their dealers are in my city, :beers:
What is the name of this battery exactly?
I plan on doing a little shopping tommorow :banana:
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Okay you say your bro checked the bat. and it was good so lets say you take the starter out of the bike and test that ! How you say get some good old jumper cables and open your car hood with the car off connect the cables to the car and the positive to were the starter wire hooked up, now hook the ground to were the bolts that held the sarter to the motor were (1 of the to bolt holes I dont care) OOPS i forgot to say hold on tight if ti flew out of your hands its good if it made some nasty ass sound and barely turned over id say you found your problem! If im right this was a good show anyway!
cheers
Jay
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im in canada too :motorsmile:
In ontario,
where can i get this battery? for $53 seems like a good way of atleast trying
Any of the dealers should have a parts canada catalog. They should be able to source the number for you. Alternatively, if you have more patience than I do, you can look through here: http://www.partscanada.ca/catalogue/2006/mc/en/index.html
The battery actually says Parts Unlimited on it, so it should be in that catalog. You could try this number:165394 apparently list is: $37.95
The battery # that is on the battery is YTX9-BS (I think, double check this of course before you buy it.)
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Okay you say your bro checked the bat. and it was good so lets say you take the starter out of the bike and test that ! How you say get some good old jumper cables and open your car hood with the car off connect the cables to the car and the positive to were the starter wire hooked up, now hook the ground to were the bolts that held the sarter to the motor were (1 of the to bolt holes I dont care) OOPS i forgot to say hold on tight if ti flew out of your hands its good if it made some nasty ass sound and barely turned over id say you found your problem! If im right this was a good show anyway!
cheers
Jay
:shock:
:duh:
The Starter works, and it defenately turns when battery is fully charged by battery charger
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if ti flew out of your hands its good if it made some nasty ass sound and barely turned over id say you found your problem! If im right this was a good show anyway!
I think if it flies out of your hands, it might be prudent to test it again after you retrieve it from the bush, or the side of your car too. :shock: :stickpoke:
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$37 for the YUASA battery...interesting, i guess im gonna buy one tomorrow
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$37 for the YUASA battery...interesting, i guess im gonna buy one tomorrow
I suspect that that's for the Parts Unlimited one, I think the $90 is for the yuasa one, but let us know. :wink:
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I suspect that that's for the Parts Unlimited one, I think the $90 is for the yuasa one, but let us know. :wink:
$90 sounds about right. I bought 2 or 3 yuasa batteries when my regulator went bad. And they turned into $90 toxic paper weights!
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I went to the store a couple days ago, the YUASA Batt was $80 and apparently they didnt have any Parts Unlimited Batt's because "they dont believe in selling crappy chinese parts to customers"
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yuasa makes the battery for parts unlimited with there name on them!
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Interesting....
One question: is there a point to even testing the bike with a new battery since riding season is over? or should I wait till spring?
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Definitely worth trying a new battery as that will allow you the winter months to find out for sure what the issue is!
The bike doesn't need to be moving to find out if it fails to charge the battery etc.
Wouldn't you sooner sort it now, so that when the next season arrives you can jump on the machine and go for a spin! I certainly would :lol:
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Dear All,
I think your discussions are very interesting... even confusing... because I have been unable to open the Electrosport pdf document on fault-finding. My computer is giving me a "viewer cannot decrypt this document".
A request: could any of us send me another more friendly form of this flowchart so that I, too, could enjoy the benefits of this discussion? Or let me know how to help my viewer decrypt the document.
Best regards,
Patrick.
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Just download the new acrobat reader and you'll be fine. mine did the same when i tryed to view it.
Cheers