Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: 400banditman on October 22, 2011, 11:07:55 PM
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Hello everybody...
Just got back from an awesome trip to biketoberfest Daytona :beers:
Today I rode from NC back to PA...About 400mi.
40 miles to my destination, at 120mph (cause i was close, and ached like hell) my bike suddenly lost power...then I reved it again a little (felt like no gas) so I turned on the reserve. No difference. Then I happen look down at my shadow to the left for whatever reason, and see a cloud of exhaust...which would be odd at 70+ mph...so I quickly exit.
Bike sounds like crap, and dies as soon as its stopped. Look down an theres no oil in the window. As smoke or steam comes out from underneath the oil cap, I pour in another quart. Try to fire it up. It fires up, but sounds horrible so I shut er down quick. Get triple A on the phone. Bikes back in PA.
Now, once cold, It wont turn over at all. Sounds like the starter is trying, but just not turning...
Blown motor?
Piston rings?
Gasket somewhere?
Gonna pull the plugs tommarrow morning and see what I see...Will follow up then. Thanks ahead for any ideas and comments...except about riding fast, LOL
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Sounds like something has let go in a big way. No longer turning over? Can you turn the engine by hand?
I would hazard a guess that maybe an oil ring has failed or a seal somewhere - pumped the oil out and it has run real low gotten hot and the pistons are starting to pick up. - or - running that hard you have run so lean that you have burnt a hole in the top of a piston? Sounds nasty whatever it is.
Pull the plugs, try to turn it over by hand - go from there.
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Thanks octane...
But how exactly do I 'hand crank' the engine? Leave it in gear and turn the rear wheel?
Are there any resources detailing piston removal/installation? If one needs replaced, may as well do them all while im there...or try to find a used engine to put in...but that aint cheap :(
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Here are some pics of the carbs and air box...any thoughts?
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The big puddles of oil in 1 & 4 are troubling to say the least. My 400 redlines at ~105 MPH with stock gearing which is what the manual says it should. You say you were going 120 MPH? At what RPM?
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All stock gearing, verified. At 120 I'm around 12k rpm. But I don't know if It's been jetted, or anything like that.
What's your take on that oil? Blown piston rings? Or something more serious?
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What's your take on that oil? Blown piston rings? Or something more serious?
Likely something pretty serious. We can only speculate about what went wrong, but worst case is that a valve went through a piston...it's not likely to be a gasket.
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That would be a lot of trouble....though I'm leaning toward blown rings..I will find all this out in the comming days of further disassembly.
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For what it's worth, jetting is not going to affect your limited top speed.
You said the starter motor wants to turn the motor over, but it's not? Is the engine turning over at all? Or is it just not firing? If it's not turning over at all, chances are good your motor is seized somehow or another.
As far as the oil in your airbox and carbs... No bueno... Seems to me your crankcase vent got filled with oil, filled your airbox, went through the carbs, and screwed up your engine. If you got enough oil in there at one time to screw up the engine, you need a new engine as chances are good your pistons, conrods, head studs, and possibly crank/bearings are done for as well.
Oh and as for turning over the engine by hand. On the right side there's a little plug in the side case that looks like it's for a huge flat head screwdriver. Take out that plug (using the biggest flathead you can find, the proper tool is best but most don't have it). Should be a 14mm bolt in there that you should be able to turn over using a socket and ratchet.
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Great...lol well time to tear it all down an find out
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updated original post. Sorry to hear that happened though man. Hope it's not what I think it is and it's a whole lot simpler!
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I'd start by clearing the cylinders of oil.
Chances are you're hydrolocked with oil. Remove the sparkplugs and turn the motor over. It's best not to use the starter motor for this or you'll end up with oil on the ceiling. Shift into 6th and push the bike around. If the motor isn't seized then I'd drain he carbs and put everything back together and see if it'll start.
Then you can start to diagnose what's wrong. Its probably cheaper to find another motor and swap then trying to rebuild a mashed motor. But only time will tell...
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Hey great idea! So if after I drain it begins to turn an crank normal, it may be an indication of....?
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Its an indication that your motors not seized... Lol that's about it. Then you can do a compression test.
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What would the compression test be for? If I have to replace two sets of rings may as well do all...found some on ebay used...working out a deal now hopefully. Either way work begins tomorrow. Check back for updates
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Yes... but I'd want to make sure I have bad compression before opening the motor.
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You'll also want to check to see you didn't bend a rod or put a hole in a piston. That high RPM with a non-compressible liquid suddenly stopping the motor is NOT good for it.
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Aight, got the plugs out an the value cover off...engine does turn over, an shot oil onto the ceiling lol...only thing that's weird so far is number 4 spark plug was all chewed up electrode side...gonna keep stripping...stand by
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If the main bearing on that rod went out the piston may have hit the plug. Not good.
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pictures:
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more
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Ouch...
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Ah shoot, just put some Marvel Magic Mystery Oil in there and you'll be fine!
Yeesh that's bad. Sorry to see your engine is toast bud. Time for a new motor or a motor swap. Personally I vote trying to shoehorn in a 600!
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I would love to fit the 600 in, but I just don't plan to keep her that long...an I talked to a parts breaker in Florida. He said it looked to him as if my number 4 cylinder carb was way rich...cause its the only one that's burned through like that. An there's little play between the piston arm an crank, so hopefully that's not damaged.
No matter happened, I plan to install replacement pistons, rings, cylinder sleeve an ...basically the whole top end. Maybe gsxr cams?
It's all gotta wait tho
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What..no way a 600 would fit?
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Umm bud, you need a new parts guy. Rich doesn't cause detonation like that, it'd be too lean. The coloring comes from the oil it ingested. And I'm guessing since it was (obviously at 100+ MPH) running fine, then suddenly it went kaboom, it was the oil it ingested that caused that damage.
As far as there being play between the connecting rod and the crank. There ought to be some, but not enough to feel it once the conrod big end bolts are tightened down.
When you have damage that severe it usually ends up screwing up the bearings between the conrod big end and the crank. Fixing that involves machining and more money than the bike is worth (by a pretty decent margin).
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Yeah I still gotta pull off the oil pan an check for metal
oh an rich, lean, whatever, the point was that mis-...calculated carb settings or whatever did it. Not riding at high speed. although that prolly excelerated things LOL
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Wow! I was close. If it were me, and I wanted to keep it, I'd source a replacement 2nd hand engine less all the bits that hang off it.
Take the buggered bits to the scrap metal guys and cash it in. Alot of work and $ goes into rebuilding an engine. If you can get a replacement that can be compression tested all the better. :thumb:
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Yikes.
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Keep an eye on ebay. I picked up an entire 400 engine including most of the ancillary parts (starter, clutch, stator, etc) for $300 + $75 shipping. I took it apart and found one cylinder had bad rings, otherwise it was all ok. I coated all the parts in oil and packed them away in freezer bags in storage, long term project.
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So an update.
After looking on Ebay for parts in October, I located a seller who had the goods in Clearwater FL. Come to find out he is native to my area here in PA, and willing to delist the items and deliver the parts over Christmas break for cash. So I waited.
He arrived Christmas eve around noon.
The first thing he noticed was heat distortion on the conn rod bore and the piston pin of the burned out piston. He explained how the parts should slide easily though each other, but did not. So we got a dremel tool and some polishing compound and smoothed out the bore of the rod. Then we installed basically new pistons with rings, seals and matching pins along with the newer cylinder sleeve. Went together flawlessly and felt great. Then he took a look at my cylinder head and the valve surfaces. That metal deposit you saw on the face? All gone. He went over it with a fine grinder and removed it all...with no surface distortion or high spots.
At that point we bolted everything down. He took the carb body back with him to inspect and clean in the meantime. I expect him back soon to help with a valve clearence adjustment and to re-install everything. This guy was outstanding.
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(ran out of space!)
So if anyone is lucky enough to live in florida, and has a bike issue they needed fixed, hit this guy up. His name is Ethan, and his Ebay handle is patra729. Highly reccomended. He actaully owned a couple bandits and his father I believe still rides one.
Anyway, attached are some current pics.
I will keep everybody posted. We plan to have it running before new years!
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So last night he came over again and finished up. We adjusted the valves (which were all too tight) and reassembled everything.
At first it didnt want to start. After some starting fluid and a few hiccups, it fired up!
We then ran it awhile, to seat the piston rings and burn off extra oil. And there was alot to burn; when the piston went, it shot oil all through the internal components, including the exhaust.
Now is time to make sure nothing was left out and all fasteners are tightened. Soon hopefully, I'll get it to a shop to preform a carb sync and balance.
Anyway, time for some :beers: tonight!
Thanks everyone! Happy new years!!
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Nice job! Yeah tights valves will make it screwy.