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Author Topic: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...  (Read 58275 times)

Offline crashed9xs

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2013, 02:09:43 PM »
Which EFI system will you be using? I am very interested in your project. It sounds like it will fix two issues these bikes have. Ignition system and carburetors...

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2013, 03:41:08 PM »
The ECU I'll be using is the Microsquirt by Bowling & Grippo.  About 5 years ago I did a similar fuel injection conversion on a 2005 Kawasaki EX250, which turned out great and has provided many miles of riding enjoyment over the last 4 years, so I've got a lot of prior experience (and mistakes) to build on with this project.

The big parts of my system will be: Microsquirt ECU, Honda TRX420/TRX500 fuel pump, Honda Grom fuel injectors (94 cc/min at 50 psi), Suzuki GSX-R600 (shorty) Coil-on-Plug sticks with a Yamaha YZF-R1 plugwire harness, DIYAutotune Quadspark four-channel ignition module, Innovate Motorsports LC-2 Wideband O2 sensor controller w/Bosch 5-wire sensor and standalone A/F ratio gauge.

Of course there are a bunch of other little details (FI and ignition systems "black magic" stuff) and a supporting cast of bits-and-pieces to deal with in this project, so that just amounts to a "broad brushstrokes" outline of it.

I'm on a bit of a work break from the project this month, lots of family time with relatives for Thanksgiving, but I plan on having this thing up and running by late spring/early summer.

Offline phoenix

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2013, 06:46:51 PM »
Very cool project.  I've had MS on both of my Sciroccos for about 5 years now.  Can Microsquirt use a bluetooth adapter for programming via smartphone?  Do you have a stock ignition map or are you going to figure a new one by trial and error.

I like where you're going with the solo cowl.  When I made mine, I used cardboard to match the shape of the tail and covered it with packing tape as a mold that would release the carbon fiber without issue.  I tried using floral foam but found it messy and difficult to match the contours of the under tray. 

Offline andrewsw

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2013, 11:23:53 PM »
that seat cowl looks nice. It's on my project list someday. Also, I like the alternative paint job. Not colors I'd personally pick, but I applaud your departure from the more common color schemes.

A

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2013, 12:13:36 AM »
Quote
I've had MS on both of my Sciroccos for about 5 years now.

That's funny to hear that you're a Scirocco guy.  I'm one also.  I had two, a Mars Red 1981 "S" model and an Alpine White 1980 "S" model.  Loved both of them, classic 1970s "automotive origami" from the pen of Giorgetto Giugiaro himself.

Judging by the patches on the wall behind your Bandit I'd guess you were military.  I'm retired Air Force.


Quote
Can Microsquirt use a bluetooth adapter for programming via smartphone?

I don't know much about that.  On my Kawasaki EX250 project I always used a USB-adapted serial port cable and a crappy old Netbook computer.  Maybe I should try something a bit more up to date for the Bandit project.

Quote
Do you have a stock ignition map or are you going to figure a new one by trial and error.

I don't have a stock ignition map so I'll be figuring out that part as I go along unless I find somebody with a similar bike to copy from.  On the fueling side of the house I believe that the MS2/Extra AFR and VE tables from my Kawasaki EX250 project will serve as a very good starting point for the Bandit.  My EX250 project was "fuel-only" so it doesn't have an ignition map to donate to the Bandit project.


I see your Bandit still has its center stand.  My bike's stand is long gone, one of the bike's prior owners took it off.  I'm guessing he ditched it because of clearance issues with the Yoshimura pipe.  That's okay with me because the only logical place I can weld the O2 sensor bung onto the exhaust pipe will place the O2 sensor body right in the space that the center stand pivots used to occupy.  When I get the bike completely disassembled for painting I'm going to have to grind off the center stand pivot points.

I'm going to produce two solo cowl plugs from two different types of styrofoam (one is green floral foam, the other is pink insulation foam), then I'll fiberglass both of them at the same time.  My prior experience with producing fiberglass parts tells me that no matter how hard I try to make them both come out perfect I will instead end up with one that I love and one that I hate, so I'm just going to go ahead and make two.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 12:16:47 AM by greg737 »

Offline phoenix

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2013, 10:39:13 AM »


That's funny to hear that you're a Scirocco guy.  I'm one also.  I had two, a Mars Red 1981 "S" model and an Alpine White 1980 "S" model.  Loved both of them, classic 1970s "automotive origami" from the pen of Giorgetto Giugiaro himself.

I had a 1978 till about a month ago.  After 19 years as a DD, I finally had to let it go.  My wife still has her 1986, but it's just not the same.  I will say that the difference between generations is phenominal from a comfort and driving perspective. 

Quote
Judging by the patches on the wall behind your Bandit I'd guess you were military.  I'm retired Air Force

12 Years active AF so far.  An upcoming assignment is one of the big reasons for selling the 1978 Scirocco.  Too many toys/vehicles to move.

Quote
I don't know much about that.  On my Kawasaki EX250 project I always used a USB-adapted serial port cable and a crappy old Netbook computer.  Maybe I should try something a bit more up to date for the Bandit project.

I've got a netbook dedicated to the exact same thing.  Tunerstudio works great.  I've finally started using a smart phone for tuning though.  It's much nicer for on the fly tweaks.

Quote
I don't have a stock ignition map so I'll be figuring out that part as I go along unless I find somebody with a similar bike to copy from.  On the fueling side of the house I believe that the MS2/Extra AFR and VE tables from my Kawasaki EX250 project will serve as a very good starting point for the Bandit.  My EX250 project was "fuel-only" so it doesn't have an ignition map to donate to the Bandit project.

You've probably already seen this, but the builder may have a "starter" map.  I'm not sure if he's running fuel only or fuel and spark.
http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=23094&p=144968&hilit=gsf400#p144968

Quote
I see your Bandit still has its center stand.  My bike's stand is long gone, one of the bike's prior owners took it off.  I'm guessing he ditched it because of clearance issues with the Yoshimura pipe.  That's okay with me because the only logical place I can weld the O2 sensor bung onto the exhaust pipe will place the O2 sensor body right in the space that the center stand pivots used to occupy.  When I get the bike completely disassembled for painting I'm going to have to grind off the center stand pivot points.

Sounds like an excellent idea.  I've kept my center stand as I've still got the factory Japan market stainless steel exhaust with a CBR slip on.

Quote
I'm going to produce two solo cowl plugs from two different types of styrofoam (one is green floral foam, the other is pink insulation foam), then I'll fiberglass both of them at the same time.  My prior experience with producing fiberglass parts tells me that no matter how hard I try to make them both come out perfect I will instead end up with one that I love and one that I hate, so I'm just going to go ahead and make two.

I'm currently restoring a 1968-72 Zink formula vee and it seems like the fiberglass bodywork never quite ends up just how I want it.  Fortunatly it's a long term project and I've got friends that restore old boats so the advise is always free.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 10:40:58 AM by phoenix »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2013, 04:04:10 PM »
It sure has been quiet around here lately.  I'm sure the holidays are always pretty slow.

But now it's time to get back to work...

Here's an overview of what I'm doing to my 1993 Bandit:

« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 06:02:57 PM by greg737 »

Offline El Gringo

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 12:07:41 PM »
Looks cracking Greg, are you going to incorporate the lighting circuit in with the EFI system or keep it separate?

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2013, 09:08:49 AM »
On my first fuel injection conversion project (a Kawasaki EX250) I kept as much of the bike's original wiring harness as I could.  But there's a lot of wiring that has to be added for the fuel injection system.  On the EX250 the added wiring just about doubled the size of the harness.  I think that on this Bandit 400 project I might be a little more inclined to morph the two together (the bike's original harness and the fuel injection wiring) wherever it makes the most sense to do it that way.

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2014, 06:17:11 PM »
I've been busy with work and family for the last couple of months now I'm finally finding time to proceed with my Bandit project.

It's not really a fuel injection related item but I wanted to upgrade the Bandit's cooling system. 

If you look at Suzuki's current motorcycles (any from the last 10 years, really) you'll see that they plumb in a small radiator bypass coolant line that runs from the thermostat housing to the return line into the bike's water pump.  As an example you can easily see this line on the SV 650 where it connects into the water pump housing (it faces inward, toward the engine, but you can look downward on the water pump housing and see it).

The Bandit 400's stock cooling system configuration has no direct bypass line.  Instead, every bit of coolant that circulates has to go through the radiator before it gets back to the engine.  The Bandit's stock thermostat has five small holes in it to allow a little bit of constant flow to occur (actually, four of the holes are dedicated to flow while the fifth hole is at the very top of the thermostat to bleed out air bubbles when the system is serviced).

My modified Bandit system will not have any of these flow holes in the thermostat, only a single little hole at the top for bleeding bubbles out of the system.  To provide a constant flow of coolant my modified system will have a bypass line from the thermostat housing to the radiator return line.

For the more visual among us, here are the pictures...

Those of you who have looked at the Bandit 400's thermostat housing in the past may have noticed that it has an unused port on the bottom.  This port was used on the GSX-R400 where it holds a small temperature sensor.  Because this casting was produced for both the GSX-R and the Bandit, every Bandit has this extra port.


During production the housings that were designated for installation on Bandit 400s didn't have this extra port drilled through into the housing.  For my modification I drilled it through and tapped 1/8 NPT threads into it.


Here's a picture of the bits-n-pieces.  The blue fitting is a Koso 22mm thermostat adaptor.  I re-tapped the threads in the Koso adaptor to accept a 1/8 NPT 90 degree fitting with a 3/8 inch hose barb on it.  The brass colored item is a standard General Motors water temperature sensor and the wiring pigtail that goes with it.  This sensor has 3/8 NPT threading so I got an adaptor that has the same threading as the Bandit's thermostat which are 16mm/1.5 pitch.  The 90 degree fitting at the bottom is the other end of the bypass line.  The General Motors temperature sensor will take the place of the Bandit's radiator fan switch.  It will be wired into the Microsquirt ECU (the Microsquirt will control the Bandit's radiator fan).


... Another view with everything lightly assembled


Here's the Bandit 400's stock radiator coolant return hose with the Koso adaptor sitting in the approximate position it will eventually be installed in.


... and another.


Here's a picture of the thermostats.  On the left is the new one, it is a 195 degree Stant brand thermostat and on the right is the Bandit 400's original thermostat (which opens at 175 degrees).  You can see three of the five constant-flow holes in the original thermostat.  Before I install the replacement Stant thermostat I'll drill a little bubble bleed hole at the top of the thermostat's flange, like the Bandit's original has.


... another view.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 07:00:50 PM by greg737 »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2014, 06:56:40 PM »
I've also been looking into the bike's carbs. 

In the near future I will be doing some machining of the carbs to prepare them for the addition of an injector array (holders, injectors and fuel rail).  I'm using the secondary injector array from a Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R, the ones that are mounted on the bike's airbox (most of the newer Japanese 4 cylinder supersport bikes have 8 injectors now, 2 per cylinder).  This secondary injector array had the perfect spacing to match up with the Bandit's carbs and the injectors are also the ideal flow rate for the Bandit's 100cc cylinders.

I'm keeping the Bandits carbs because, 1. they fit the bike (Duh!)  2. they have CV slides.

So as I disassembled my project bike's carbs I was happy to find that they are in excellent shape, very clean and undamaged.  Except for the CV slide springs.  I only rode my project bike three times before I took it off the road to begin work on it.  During those rides I noticed that the CV slides were obviously slamming open as soon as the engine developed even the slightest vacuum.  I suspected that one of the prior owners had done some sort of "boy racer" modification to them.

When I took the carbs apart I found that somebody had clipped the springs to shorten them.  I went on the web and found a few pictures of the Bandit's CV springs and counted the windings.  A stock Bandit CV slide spring has 38 or 39 turns in its winding.  The clipped springs in my carbs only have 34 turns.  No wonder the CV slides slam open so quickly when I twist the throttle.

Here's a picture of my CV slide springs.  If you look closely you can see that the top of each spring has been clipped and doesn't have the usual tighter looping of the metal at that end.


Here's a picture of my carbs and the Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R secondary injector array.


... and another of the injector array.  The injectors in it flow 160cc/min at 43psi.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 08:50:00 PM by greg737 »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 01:16:10 PM »
In late October of last year I sent the fuel tank out to be reconditioned.  It came back to me in mid December and it certainly looks like they did a very thorough job on it.   

One of the protective measures of the Fuel Tank Renu process is an extra-thick coating on the outside bottom of the tank.  I can tell that they really did put a lot of rust-proofing on the tank's bottom because it's the end of January now and the tank's bottom surface has only just now stopped feeling tacky and smelling up the garage. 

I guess it's a good thing that I wasn't ready to use the fuel tank right away.  Right now I'm not expecting to have the bike painted (including the fuel tank) until sometime in late February or early March.  I'm almost ready to send the frame and suspension swing-arm out to be powdercoated in early February.

First, here's what the tank looked like when it arrived in the mail from Ebay.  It was in pretty fair condition, with only light rust inside and on the outside bottom.  In this "before" picture you're seeing its best side.


Here's a couple of pictures of the fuel tank as it came back to me from the Moyer Fuel Tank Renu people.


I wouldn't know how to take a picture of the fuel tank's inside surface, but it now has a very dark, brownish-red colored coating on its interior.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 01:46:13 PM by greg737 »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2014, 01:43:43 PM »
I'm going to upgrade the Bandit's ignition system components. 

I'm replacing the bike's two standard coils, coil wires and plug wires with '05 Honda CBR-600RR Coil-on-Plug units.  These Coil-on-Plug sticks are known in the do-it-yourself fuel injection world as "shorty" coils because they are the absolute shortest ones available.  The Bandit needs these really short coils because the plug wells in its engine's head are rather shallow.  Even these "shorty" coils stick up well above the engine's cam cover.

The Microsquirt ECU will be taking over the ignition control duty from the Bandit's original CDI box (which will be removed from my project bike).  Due to heat and electrical noise/interference issues the Microsquirt ECU doesn't have high-voltage ignitors built into it, instead it only sends out 5 volt "logic level" signals to a separate ignition module.  The stand-alone ignition module that I've chosen is the Quadspark module produced by DIYautotune in Georgia.

Here's a couple pictures of the bits-n-pieces for the bike's ignition system.  '05 Honda CBR-600RR "shorty" Coil-on-Plug sticks, connector plugs cut from an '09-'11 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R wiring harness and the Quadspark ignition module.



Offline El Gringo

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 03:12:49 PM »
 :thanks: Thanks for posting this up Greg, i find this really really interesting.

You really are going all out on this!

Can't wait to see how it all runs  :motorsmile:

Offline tubular

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2014, 04:41:17 PM »
Great job Greg! What kind of spray pattern does the ZX-6R injectors have? Their flow should be fine. I've been using injectors from the CBR600RR which have about the same flow IIRC with no problem. What I'm planing to do next is to hack the reservoir and fit an intank pump from a K8 GSRX600. I think my current simple inline fuel pump setup may not be adequate on some occassions. Also I can put back on the airbox after pump and pressure regulator are gone.

Waiting to see your ignition setup.  :popcorn2: I did not dare to mess with it. Think I'll just copy you, with your kind permission of course!

 :congrats:

 

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