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Author Topic: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...  (Read 60742 times)

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #240 on: April 19, 2016, 10:08:38 PM »
Quote
That doens't mean you can't get more power/torque. Stock, the 400 isn't tuned for max performance.
Just going from 100 to 110 main jet increases power considerably (with aftermarket muffler). My top speed went from 185 to 215km/h on the speedo.

Your B4 and my B4 are about as different as the B4 model gets. 

Unless I'm remembering wrong yours is a 59 horsepower version and a European version.  Mine is the '93 model which is a 53 horsepower version, and a USA version (although thankfully it's not one of the even more de-tuned California versions).

The way your bike is set up: Mikuni BST33SS carbs, 47/14 final drive with a 1.150 (23/20) 6th gear ratio, and the more aggressive (GSX-R400) camshaft profile with more lift 7.6mm intake and 7.0mm exhaust, results in much better performance at the top-end.

My B4 has less top-end performance available: BST32SS carbs, 46/14 final drive with a 1.136 (25/22) 6th gear ratio, and a less aggressive camshaft profile with less lift 6.2mm intake and 6.2mm exhaust, results in good low-end-to-midrange torque but doesn't deliver at the high-RPM end like your bike does.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 10:28:07 PM by greg737 »

Offline Squishy

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #241 on: April 20, 2016, 05:48:41 AM »
Quote
That doens't mean you can't get more power/torque. Stock, the 400 isn't tuned for max performance.
Just going from 100 to 110 main jet increases power considerably (with aftermarket muffler). My top speed went from 185 to 215km/h on the speedo.

Your B4 and my B4 are about as different as the B4 model gets. 

Unless I'm remembering wrong yours is a 59 horsepower version and a European version.  Mine is the '93 model which is a 53 horsepower version, and a USA version (although thankfully it's not one of the even more de-tuned California versions).

The way your bike is set up: Mikuni BST33SS carbs, 47/14 final drive with a 1.150 (23/20) 6th gear ratio, and the more aggressive (GSX-R400) camshaft profile with more lift 7.6mm intake and 7.0mm exhaust, results in much better performance at the top-end.

My B4 has less top-end performance available: BST32SS carbs, 46/14 final drive with a 1.136 (25/22) 6th gear ratio, and a less aggressive camshaft profile with less lift 6.2mm intake and 6.2mm exhaust, results in good low-end-to-midrange torque but doesn't deliver at the high-RPM end like your bike does.
Sure, but mine doesn't only win in top-end power.
With the needles also in +1 rich position, 110 main jet and open exhaust the mid-range is much stronger as well. In this configuration I can lift the front wheel by rapidly opening the throttle in 1st gear.
On stock this wasn't even close to possible. Not to mention the huge flat spot in full stock config.

I don't ride in this config because it's a bit nervous but more importantly too lazy to change it whenever I go on a long trip to the mountains.
Anyway my point is there is definitely an increase to be found just by different fueling compared to stock, especially now that you can so easily change it and see the results compared to carbs.
In my experience the engine likes to be a lot richer than factory.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 06:00:38 AM by Squishy »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #242 on: April 23, 2016, 08:04:26 PM »
Back in the garage today.  Was planning to ride the B4 and maybe make a video of that, but it decided to rain here in Spokane so all I did was a cold start up test...

http://vid679.photobucket.com/albums/vv158/EWflyer/GSF400%20video%20library/GSF400%20cold%20start-April23-16_zpsvxkg9ea0.mp4

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #243 on: May 06, 2016, 11:06:09 PM »
I used fuel injectors from a Kawasaki ZX-6R in my GSF400 project.  They are the secondary injectors which are airbox-mounted on the ZX-6R (like a lot of modern supersport bikes the ZX-6R uses 8 fuel injectors total).

Playing around with the cheap Chinese USB microscope.  Here's what the fuel injector tips look like at magnification up to about 125X:







As mentioned, these injectors are from a Kawasaki ZX-6R.  They are the secondary injectors that are mounted in the airbox with an injector pointed directly into the mouth of each individual throttlebody velocity stack.

Also, the set of injectors in these photos are my "backup" set of ZX-6R injectors.  When I was gathering parts for this project I found that the Ebay bike-breakers were practically giving these ZX-6R secondary injector arrays away so I bought a second set just in case I ever needed to replace one or all of my original set.  I haven't had this set professionally cleaned so they're a bit on the dirty side and as a result not particularly photogenic.

Offline ventYl

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #244 on: May 07, 2016, 02:04:32 PM »
What was the reason for using these? I assume that volumetric throughtput of main injectors is simply too large for engine of small displacement.
Bandit 400 1991 - stock except of swap from GK75B to GK75A

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #245 on: May 07, 2016, 04:17:45 PM »
What was the reason for using these? I assume that volumetric throughtput of main injectors is simply too large for engine of small displacement.

Your guess is correct, these ZX-6R secondary injectors have the exact volumetric profile that a high-revving 100cc cylinder needs.

You have to find a Goldilocks solution with injectors: not too big, not too small.  Too big and the injection Pulse Width at idle becomes impossible to tune properly, and too small means you run out of delivery capacity before the engine reaches its redline speed.

When I first decided to try them I had no idea if they were a match for the GSF400, but they seemed like they might be a good bet and, as mentioned, they were for sale on Ebay at dirt cheap prices so it was worth taking the chance.

The gamble turned out good, these ZX-6R secondary injectors tested at 160cc per minute under 43.5 psi (held open, full flow).  In actual use most fuel injectors cannot be constantly held open, in fact they are intended to have a maximum "duty cycle" (which is the ratio of "on" vs. "off") of about 80% to 85%.  So by doing the math to account for that: 160cc per minute constant-flow test result reduced by 20% to approximate the normal maximum 80% duty cycle I got a 128cc per minute "real world" number which was perfect for the GSF400.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 04:35:30 PM by greg737 »

Offline greg737

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #246 on: October 19, 2016, 08:25:45 PM »
Got out for a ride on the GSF400 today, first ride for about 3 months or more.  I've just been too busy getting my life settled here in Denver, CO (I moved here from Spokane in late May).

The GSF400 fuel injection project bike was waiting patiently for me to get back to it.  All I had to do was remember to charge the battery last night and it started up today on the first press of the starter.

I've been so busy with work, children and other hobbies the months of not riding just flew by.  Part of it is that there's not a lot of good riding close by where I live now in Denver, in Spokane I had great twisty, satisfying country roads right from the edge of my neighborhood.  I'll have to get over being spoiled like that.

Hopefully there will still be some riding weather for a bit here in Denver.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 08:29:57 PM by greg737 »

Offline nsc

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2017, 02:47:48 PM »
Hi Greg!
You really inspired me so I'm putting together my own microsquirt build for a B4V. Right now I'm in the process of gathering material and parts and i was wondering if you could post the map sensor array schematic.
Although i will try to document the whole process it will probably not at the detail of your write-up.
Thanks for making it easy!

Offline tubular

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #248 on: April 20, 2017, 12:53:18 PM »
Judging from your avatar, I'd say you reside in Greece.

If you are located in Athens and want to see my build or discuss, drop a line.

tubular

Offline nsc

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #249 on: April 20, 2017, 02:04:31 PM »
Hi Themis (right?) Yes I'm from Greece. We spoke actually on your topic ages ago.
Although I'm living in Scotland now and this is where I'm building my B4  :roll:

Actually your build convinced me to use an in tank pump but I dont want to hijack Greg's topic so I'll send you a pm later when I finish work

 :beers:

Offline tubular

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Re: Greg's Bandit 400 Fuel Injection Project...
« Reply #250 on: April 21, 2017, 04:15:42 PM »
Yeap! It's me. Good to hear from you again Nikos(?) . Those messages from 2011 are still in my inbox. So, let's not spoil Greg's post further. Send me a PM whenever you feel like. I'm always around.

 :beers:

 

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