Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: andrewsw on April 27, 2008, 05:51:08 PM
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Hey all, I desperately need a readable set of wiring diagrams for a US P model. Anyone got a decent scan?
The wiring diagrams in the readily available sources are either not-applicable, i.e. don't match a '93, or are illegible.
Here's why:
1. the 7th wire from the CDI -- green/yellow that supposedly runs to the gear position indicator is hanging loose on my bike with no matching part for it to plug into. I really want to know exactly how this all goes together so I can figure out what I should be doing with this wire...
2. My side stand switch is missing with no open connectors to which it would normally connect. I assume someone has modded those wires so that the thing will run, but it would be nice to se how it really goes.
3. other stuff?
thanks
A
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And hey, as an alternative, I could use a very clear description of the 7th cdi wire (yellow/green) and it's path, particularly how it connects to the gear indicator switch *and* what wires come out of that switch and where they go. photos would be awesome too....
I think I have the incorrect switch leaving my 7th wire hanging loose...
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Check out the second link in Jay's post here (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=8977.0). Pretty darn clear scans!
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Well, those scans are pretty good... they don't make my eyes bleed like some of the ones I have, so that's great, thanks! but...
no go. It doesn't show the limiter wire... only six wires coming out of the cdi...
any other help out there?
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Then clearly you don't need it! Just cut it off and it'll be just like the diagram. :stickpoke:
I had a scan that I think included the P but my hard drive crashed. :duh:
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If your running without it then it does matter as presumably it's limiting him to lower power in all the gears. that wire and only one wire comes out of the gear indicator swith and runs up through the frame to a connector in the back of the tank area. then from there it runs again to the cdi.
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Thanks PitterB4... :roll: heh. it actually runs just fine except performance goes to shit up above 80-90 mph in 5th and 6th, though why it doesn't in the lower gears is beyond me, because in theory the damn thing can't tell what gear I'm in.
I think BanditMax is right, potentially I'm limited all the time. It must not be enough to really show in the lower gears... gear ratio is disguising it and I don't have a known non-limited bandit to compare to.
The way mine is currently setup, there is a wire (one wire only) coming from the neutral/gear indicator switch located behind the sprocket cover, just forward of the gear-shift shaft. That wire runs up to the rear of the tank, sort of behind the reg/rect and from there heads off to the neutral/sidestand relays and ultimately to the neutral light on the dash.
It does *not* and cannot (wrong connector) hook to the extra wire coming off the cdi.
If I understand you correctly, the P's have a completely different setup? Some other set of circuits runs the neutral relays etc? What you describe, a single wire from the switch, runs up and connects with a bullet connector to the yellow/green wire that comes out of the wiring harness, along with a few others, just before the harness heads up over the air box, right? Maybe I'll take some pictures and throw them up here.
My switch, btw, has only two states. open circuit/max resistance in any gear and closed circuit/min resistance in neutral. It clearly is not the right switch to handle the P model cdi, so far as I can tell. The microfische only shows one version of the part (figure 19, item 38, part no. 37720-32c00) for all models, so that just makes me more confused.
From my reading of past threads, it appears that the proper switch should provide three states. About 1k ohm in lower gears, about 2k ohm in higher gears, and 0 ohm in neutral. So in theory I'm getting neutral indicated performance all the time, whatever that might be.
I'm going to have to break down and go ask the dealer if I can look at their wiring diagram... if they have one. And maybe a trip to radio shack and start sticking some resistors in there and see what happens.
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I have a B4 service manual, I can check tonight to see if a separate wiring diagram is include for this "P" model you mention. I wouldn't be able to scan it 'till tomorrow, as my home scanner is kaput and I work in NYC (where I have access to a scanner). Mine is also a '93 model, although I don't think the manual is year-specific.
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Hey thanks VidRazor, that's great :thanks:. If you look at those wiring diagrams, the igniter is the part of interest. *All* the diagrams I've seen show only 6 wires out of the it. Some diagrams show *space* for a seventh wire but no actual wire... :annoy:
And if not, if you think you've got a pretty stock wiring harness, any insight you could give from your setup would be great.
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I think i have mucked up there actually it may well have 2 wires from the switch.
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It's tricky... the oil pressure wire runs from the filter cover back under the left side and then runs with the gear switch one together back up under the tank. Also my gear switch wire is running in a housing and it's entirely possible that there are two wires in there... one of them cut. I'll have to pull it to see for sure.
And I just learned from jay that there is a diode in the switch which means my multi-testing may have had the wrong polarity to properly test that switch... back to it I go here... raining anyway...
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I have a B4 service manual, I can check tonight to see if a separate wiring diagram is include for this "P" model you mention. I wouldn't be able to scan it 'till tomorrow, as my home scanner is kaput and I work in NYC (where I have access to a scanner). Mine is also a '93 model, although I don't think the manual is year-specific.
There are P-specific amendments to the manual including a wiring diagram if you have a '93 manual ("P" is the designation for the US, non-CA, '93 bike).
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Restriction is only on jap bikes i think
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OK, I scanned the info, where do you want me to send this? It's just under 12 megs. :wink:
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I just PM'ed my email address to you...
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That link didn't go through, let me know where else I can send that to you.
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I resent the PM with more addresses.
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I'm surprised you couldn't find the info you were looking for. I don't quite understand what's so unusual about your bike.
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Nothing unusual about it at all. Ive never found one for my 93 p model either. I think the only way one might ever be found is searching for a japanese manual.
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I think I'll make a trip to the stealer and see if they have one. Fat chance.
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What is the "P" model anyway? Can it be rewired to be more conventional? Perhaps that would solve the problem, not exactly as you expected, but solve it nonetheless.
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P is the year designation
gsf400M == 1991 (never should have sold my '91 :( )
gsf400N == 1992
gsf400P == 1993
The CDI (and other bits) are different for 1993. Valve train changed a bit, other tuning bits changed as well. And it seems they put in a speed limiter (controlled by the 7th wire on the CDI). I suppose it would be possible to rewire it for an unlimited cdi, but then you might run into differences in ignition timing and such between the models. I don't know, frankly. Jay seems to have the most knowledge on this particular aspect.
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Yeah, the P had a few differences. I don't think I remember them all anymore. CDI, gearing, wheel color, plugs... I think valve clearances... There are 93 shop manuals around with all the P specs. I had one but gave it to the guy that bought the bike.
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Hi andy, are you sure your bike is a US model? and not a jap! are ths US bikes restricted? sounds like yours is, all models only got 6 wires from the cdi, the sidestand wires are green and black/white tracer coming out of the loom with the main battry wires also with the gear wire, the green yellow one that we spoke about the resistor pluggin into, on the wiring diagram ive got for the P model there seems to be no diffrences, the only diffrences are valve clearences,valve stem dia,cam height,spark plugs and some carb specs.
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Yeah i think it is jap imports that have the 7th wire only.
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Had another look and think the US/canadian models have a clutch switch, must be under the lever, that other models do not, this seems one way to check. I think Bandimax is correct or someone fitted jap parts at sometime!!
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I won't deny that it's possible. What I haven't checked is whether there's any voltage running through that wire. Maybe it's just plugging into a dead terminal on the cdi?
Definitely some weird stuff has been done to it electrically. I have no sidestand switch, someone doctored the wiring to make it work without it. I know, it's dangerous... but I'm used to it. A few of the parts have been drilled for safety wire too, so it's kinda hard to say what else has been done.
Are there other clues that would point to whether it's a jap import or not? If someone put a jap cdi in it, then they must have put a jap wiring loom in as well, 'cause that wire is running through the loom.
Anyway, it's a mystery.
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umm 33mm carbs are a big clue.
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US bike should only have one blue wire for the neutral sensor, the jap one will have two, these being green/yel and blue, the blue one is usually got a cloth style covering. most obvious would have been kmph speedo, twin discs, stainless exhaust and really tidy chrome bullet indicators, but these are only diffrences to uk bike and i not know how yours stacks up! but some things may help you.
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Why not take a close-up shot of the wires coming out, maybe somebody can ID it.
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I'll post some pictures soon.
So, yeah, duh, it's not a jap bike. And (still haven't actually pulled the neutral switch to check it out) it has only the one wire, blue, cloth covered, coming from the switch... maybe someone cut it, but if so, it was right up at the switch. Meanwhile, the green/yellow wire from the cdi just sits there.
I'm still not convinced that it's limited, BTW, though it really seems to run out of steam at 100mph. As far as the rest of it goes, it's not a jap bike: single disk, mph gauges etc.
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You defo got a US bike then, but you feel that it maybe restricted and no US/Canadian models have a green/yel wire at the cdi,so draw from that what you may! the only way to tell if you got a jap cdi is to put a resistor between the green/y wire and ground, this was the quick fix for jap bikes.
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All this has made me curious. Here's the CDI from my bike:
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/vidrazor/cdi.jpg)
Mine is also a '93. Are all 93 models a "P" model? Being as I've never had any ignition problems with my bike, I assume this is the correct box. If anyone knows otherwise, I'd like to know, because I think the previous owner may have been using this on a track and I always wondered if he hacked it up. Thanks.
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Thats right for a p model.
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And i think that one is restricted :yikes:
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How involved is it to un-restrict restricted B4s? Is it merely a process of disconnecting something, or do you have to swap out CDIs and/or do other mods?
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Depends how energetic your feeling. You could just buy an m-max box.
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Therefore...
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Or you could change the neutral switch as per http://www.400greybike.cc/newforum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=166
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Does it have to read 1k ohm for it to work properly? What if 5th and sixth read nothing? If so, it seems to me to be a lot easier to mill the contacts so you never make any contact at all. Anyone ever try that?
What is the m-max box?
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No it has to have a resistance to work properly. The m-max box i assume tricks the cdi into thinking its always got 1ohm resistance through there although ive never actually tried to find out what it does fully. But what i can tell you is it does not connect the gear switch to the cdi.
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Who makes the m-max box?
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m-max, but the only supplier of them that i knew of seems to have gone bankrupt.
sales@apexleisure.co.uk is there email address if you wanted to try to get hold of them.
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Only havin a VV model that has diffrent wiring i probably kno less than Bmax,but the standard fix for all grey suzuki 400's was to put a 1.5k resistor between the green with yellow tracer wire, so the wire came out of the cdi then thrugh the resitor then the wire was taken to ground,maybe it worked or was a blag by the importers to sell bikes im not sure,the US P model bike shud only have 6 wires acording to the suzuki manual. wot is intresting tho is that some US models have a diffrent ignition timing than all the rest,i think for emisions?, so maybe changin the cdi for a diffrent one could give better power for the track, but this is merely a suggestion? anyone kno?
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I think that 1kohm resistor is what the m-max is doing to be honest. But i don't have an m-max or similar anywhere close to me at the moment, but when i do eventually get home (read in july) i will get out the multimeter and let you know what it's doing.
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Hi Bmax, i think you right! i think the boxs are for show n they just set the resistace so the cdi thinks it is in a low gear, but do you know anything about the diffrent timing on certain US models? its like 7 degrees instead of 15 which sounds way wrong to me, my bros lambretta runs more!!
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I think thats calafornia only models if you read closely. And yeah it's only to do with emissions and will be controlled via a different wheel on the crank i think.
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Dont kno how the timing curve comperes at the top end,but if it stays so close to T.D.C then these will be flat!!
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Im not sure really. But then again i don't know anyone with the calafornian model to know how slow they are. But to be honest i think they must be slower.
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Must be to give the harleys a chance lol!!
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(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/ChrisHank/resistor.jpg)
Hi Viz, this is the wire on my bike, the top end bolts to your frame then the end with the resistor 1.5k ohm is crimped into the loose splade connector, then this via another connector is fastened to the green/yell wire that comes out of your main loom near the battry. the gear selector sensor gives diffrent resistances in low and high gears and im sure this mod just tricks the cdi into thinking the bike is in a low gear, mayb Jay has a info from racing the gsxr?
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Nope derestricted mine the hard way went to a earlier harness that runs the 2 wire cdi
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So you're saying that if I just cut this cable here:
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/vidrazor/connect.jpg)
...and attach a 1.5k resistor to it coming from the ground I bypass the restricter? Sounds too easy to be true. You have this on your bike and it works? If so, I wonder if it would be this easy on my American model.
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No need to cut it there when theres a connector a bit further down your loom around the battery area where you can unplug it. And im not sure on 1.5k ohm or 1k ohm what i would do is put your bike in second gear and measure the resistance between that wire and earthed.
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Bmax is right just plug in the loom by the battry. the res on mine is 1.5?but yes if you check 2nd gear resistnce this is it, it changes from 4th upwards!ive got a feeling it goes to 1k from 4th onwards but its so long since i did my bike (8 years) i carnt remember.it was a well known fix back when grey 400s first came into the uk.
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Shame i didnt know about the fix when i bought my m-max.
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Does the 1k resistor need to have a certain wattage? Most resistors are 1/4-watt, is that good 'nuff? Also, what kind of connector do you need and where can you get 'em? Thanks.
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Im not sure on that but looking at the resistors in the senseor id say just a normal one will be fine.
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Ye Vid 1/4watt is fine with a 1% tolerance, you simply crimp the resistor into the connector that matches your loom then crimp the other end of the resistor to a peice of wire with a straight connector, then fasten the wire to the frame ,its that simple. I will check the resistance on my gear sensor thursday as i now ,finaly ,have the engine back in the frame,yeeehhaaa!!!