Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: Nige on April 11, 2005, 12:19:37 PM
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Hi there, just went and purchased a '94 bandit 400, one of (very few i gather) the UK models. I'm fairly new to the general biking world, although my knowledge of electronics is pretty sound my mechanical know-how is boardering on Zilch to be brutally honest. Bought the bike hoping to learn alot about how to fix and maintain e.t.c. but it's proved to be a bit of a steep learning curve, here's why:
Well bought the bike from a private sale, guy seemed fairly nice and worked in a garage (good sign i thought). Checked the bike out, seemed pretty good, idled a but lumpy but after 30 mins it ran smoothly, had an MOT done 2 weeks before, £700, bargain!
Rode the bike for a week with no problems, cept for having to start it with the choke every time, was an absolute joy flicking it round the country roads. Heaven.
*problem 1, AAAARGH*
Heading down the A47 to the grand city of Norwich when the bike starts to lose power, bit scary with cars and lorries swerving round you at 80mph, coast to a Lay By (thank god it was there) and start to worry as it starts to chuck it down. Everything to my untrained eye looked ok, half a tank of fuel, no fuel line problems, but the bloody thing wouldnt turn over and start. Fret for about 20 mins, then all of a sudden it starts first time perfectly. Well i didnt wanna complain so I headed off home, a bit wary. Got home fine, except that it seemed to lag a bit on acceleration, taking up to 2 seconds to kick in.
Racking my brain, i presumed that maybe there was water in the fuel tank as this would explain why it started perfectly after standing a bit, just to be safe i took it down my local garage to get it checked out. The mechanic said it was a carb problem and tried to drain the carbs. Turns out that it had never been touched, ever, despite the lovely guy i bought the bike from saying they had been stripped and cleaned :sad: my bad i guess. Mechanic managed to completely wreck all the screw heads and didnt manage to get one off, god knows why he didnt use an impact screwdriver :duh: never mind. There was alot of silt in the liquid that came out, i figured rust from the petrol tank getting in to the engine...something that shouldnt be happening since the guy assured me he had changed the petrol tank and had a receipt for it :stop: what's going on!!!
*problem 2, more AAARGH*
Well it was ok-ish after that, bit reluctant to start and wouldnt idle properly, had to keep revving it to keep the engine going. Park up outside work, when i come back out after 5 minutes some *?$!* had knocked my bike over and just left it there. God hates me. Pick the bike up (damn it's top heavy) and decided to leave it there overnight just in case anything was inside the cylinders, figured some kinda damage would occur if i tried to start it up. Came back in the morning, tried to start the bike up and nothing, just a Clicking noise from the battery area. AHA i think, a problem i could fix. Got the bike home and took a look at the wiring, fixed a few bad connections, a number of lights appeared which i didnt know were there, but other than that, everything looks fine from the starter motor to the spark plugs, all good...except, I did notice a bit of dampness in the spark plug chamber bit..worried me a bit so I decided to get professional help.
2 days later..
Bugger me...blown head gasket, apparently its been like that for a while, quoted me £350 to fix it. They showed me the liquid in the spark plug chamber and said that was deffinate proof, which i though was a bit dodgy.
Argh why me, would the bike really have passed an MOT with all these problems? It seems to me I've been properly duped, which i'm not willing to let happen again. I'm worried the garage might try one on me as i'm fairly young (20) and have admited to them with having NO mechanical know how. I've talked to a few people and they think £350 is a bit steep.
Do you guys think £350 is ok, any tips??? Does this seem like a good diagnostic?? Any help at all would be appreciated guys :lol:
Thanks for reading
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Well, my mechanical knowledge is mostly based on the past year and a half working on my Bandit so take this FWIW but, it seems reasonable to me that if your bike spent the night on it's side, gas could get in some pretty wierd places - particularly if all of your seals and orings aren't perfect. Before I spent that kind of money, I think I'd pop the tank, pull the plugs and let the thing air out for a day or so. If you're outside, I'd even hit the starter a few times. If there's gas in the cylinders, it'll shoot out (litterally!). Once everything is nice and dry, put it all back together and see if it will start.
Good luck and :welcome:
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I'm not familiar with the oiling system on the B4 (don't have my manual here), but I know that in the automotive world, a blown head gasket usually results in coolant in the oil. I would look at the filler window and see if the oil looks unusual. Remove the cap and see if it smells like oil usually smells or if it smells a little sweet like coolant. Pop off your coolant cap (under the tank) and see if the coolant is normal color (or colour) to see if it is the normal green or if it's brownish (or the level is way down). I know the times my bike has found itself on its side (fortunately not recently), it was very, very difficult to start since all the fuel dumped out of the bowls and filling the bowls back up requires a lot of cranking. If anything, I would get a second opinion from another mechanic. If things ever don't seem right, get a second opinion. Don't tell them what the other guys said (puts an idea in their head), just tell them the situation. Best of luck!! Welcome to the world of B4s and more specifically our board, we love our bikes and hope that once all this clears up, you'll love yours.
John
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Hey, thanks for the speedy replies guys :thanks: Yeah for the past 3 years after passing my test I've really been looking to get a bandit, my uncle in Hong Kong has a B1200 and it's a beautiful thing. This is my first (wobbly) step into the Bandit world but it'll be worth it in the end i'm sure of it. Thanks for the great welcome, you guys have pride of place on my favourites list and I shall be definately spreading the word :beers:
Luckily when the bike got knocked over, it was only for a maximum of 5 minutes as I only popped in and back out. I've left the bike out with the plugs out for 4 days now, it's got a little better but not much, i can still see dampness at the bottom. As for the coolent, I checked and it seems to be clear on top and browny at the bottem. I'm guessing thats a killer sign :sad:
I'll get that second opinion and we'll see, I might ask if I could do odd-jobs around the garage while they fix my bike and watch and learn, crazy idea but it would be a great learning experience.
Nigel
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There is no way that a blown head gasket will leak around the spark plugs!
Time to find another mechanic
Water sometimes collects there if you wash the bike alot or ride in the rain if the seals on the plug wires are old and hard.
This normally causes the wire to short out and cause the cylinder to misfire.
I would change your plug wires and make sure they seal around the cylinder head
This should fix most of your problems, the carb screws are very hard to get out even with the right tools, I replaced mine with allen head machine screws. the thread is 5.5x1.0 mm
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...but if you have a blown head gasket, can't coolant slip between the head and cylinder casting and into the cylinder? That's where things get really bad for the engine if it's blown too bad because water/coolant poors in and the cylinder tries to compress it (but coolant doesn't ignite and there shouldn't be that much in there).
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I suspect that the spark plug chamber is the hole in the cylinder head that the plug sits down in not the combustion chamber.
Your are right about if it was a head gasket failure antifeeze will get into the combustion chamber, but combustion gases also get into the cooling system and overpressurize it blowing out all the antifreeze causing the engine to overheat. He never said he had that problem
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It's only in the far left hand side spark plug chamber that there's dampness, i tried to see what it was and i think it's just oil now, nothing like water or coolant. However I did check in the coolant and there did seem to be a kinda browny deposit at the bottem??? It seemed pretty full to me. Sigh, it just keeps getting more and more confusing.
One other quick thing, when the garage delivered my bike back to me, it came in bits :sad: with tonnes of things disconnected and in different bags e.t.c... I've put most of it back together now, which i'm proud of :lol: but I swear that the spark plug leads were not arranged the way they are now when before the garage had it. I'm guessing that it matters which one goes where (sorry this is probably a really stupid question), is there any kind of reference that can tell me how they are arranged??
Thanks alot!!
Nigel
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1st - I recommend you get your hands on a manual. You can download one from Echo - see stickied thread in this forum.
2nd - it's not a dumb question. It's been asked here several times. Left coil - 1 & 4 (outside cylinders), right 2 & 3. It doesn't matter which left one goes to 1 or 4...
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phuck things are getting technical around here! :stickpoke:
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Ok guys, I hate to sound like a broken record, but is it possible that Nige could be another victim of a failing petcock (like we discussed in other threads)? The engine dying, running poor but better at full throttle and the wet plug in #1 (far left cylinder) all sound like the conditions I experienced before mine finally crapped out.
John
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its possible for gas to go down the vent line if the diaphragm goes bad on the pet-cock. :stickpoke:
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Even if the fuel petcock is faulty, the valve is always open letting fuel into the float bowls, but there is still the float which will regulate the fuel into the float bowl.
The float will rise when the bowl is full and the needle will then shut off fuel into the bowl just like how the toilet flushing system works.
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its possible for gas to go down the vent line if the diaphragm goes bad on the pet-cock. :stickpoke:
It sure is, that's what happened to my bike.
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Even if the fuel petcock is faulty, the valve is always open letting fuel into the float bowls, but there is still the float which will regulate the fuel into the float bowl.
The float will rise when the bowl is full and the needle will then shut off fuel into the bowl just like how the toilet flushing system works.
The valve is not always open on our bikes, that's why we don't have an "off" switch on our petcocks. Fuel only flows to the bowls when there is vacuum (engine running). That's why there is a vent tube running from the pipe intake between the carb and cylinder on #1 up to the petcock. The diaphragm that opens with vacuum sometimes tears with age so that the engine vacuum sucks fuel through that tear and straight into that intake. Eventually all carbs stop getting fuel when the tear gets bad enough and fuel dumps straight down the vacuum tube and into the #1 cylinder. So the tearing is a steady progression and carbs slowly lose fuel. That's why you get the poor idle, surges and eventual completely dead and non-starting engine.
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its possible for gas to go down the vent line if the diaphragm goes bad on the pet-cock. :stickpoke:
It sure is, that's what happened to my bike.
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Even if the fuel petcock is faulty, the valve is always open letting fuel into the float bowls, but there is still the float which will regulate the fuel into the float bowl.
The float will rise when the bowl is full and the needle will then shut off fuel into the bowl just like how the toilet flushing system works.
The valve is not always open on our bikes, that's why we don't have an "off" switch on our petcocks. Fuel only flows to the bowls when there is vacuum (engine running). That's why there is a vent tube running from the pipe intake between the carb and cylinder on #1 up to the petcock. The diaphragm that opens with vacuum sometimes tears with age so that the engine vacuum sucks fuel through that tear and straight into that intake. Eventually all carbs stop getting fuel when the tear gets bad enough and fuel dumps straight down the vacuum tube and into the #1 cylinder. So the tearing is a steady progression and carbs slowly lose fuel. That's why you get the poor idle, surges and eventual completely dead and non-starting engine.
Thanks for clarifying, I tot the vent tube you guys are toking abt is refering to the carb vent tube(corrugated hose above the air box). I understand the part where our petcock is vacuum operated because normally when I syn my carb I connect a longer hose to the vacuum hose and fuel hose to supply fuel from the petrol tank to the carbs.
I'm sure the damage on the diaphragm inside the petcock is clearly visible when it gets deteriorated to the stage when the vacuum is sucking all the fuel to cyl 1, by dismantling the fuel petcock. I have open and inspect my ex gsxr750 petcock before, and I think suzuki does not sell any repair kit for the petcock.
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Hey guys, this is better than a mechanic any day :lol: Thanks for all the feedback and putting up with me. One thing, the bike only stopped running after it got knocked over, could this be a clue to anything or maybe just a coincidence??
So next step for me is to check if the fuel petcock is broken, I'm guessing this is a simple procedure, any tips?? Gonna go and look at previous posts to see if I can pick up any info.
The manual is great, thanks echomadman. Now to find someone with a decent internet connection to nab it for me :duh:
God damn 56k dialup modems!
Nigel
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When the bike wouldn't start, was the starter still cranking? When these bikes fall over, often the fuel dumps out of the carb bowls. Because fuel only flows with vacuum, it takes a lot of cranking of the starter to fill the bowls enough for the bike to start. Mine often drained the battery completely before it would start. In my case I would then jump the battery with a car to get it started. LET ME STATE, MANY WOULD TELL YOU THIS PRACTICE OF JUMP STARTING WITH A CAR IS ILL ADVISED AS IT COULD POSSIBLY DAMAGE THE CDI. That said, it has never damaged mine. If you do opt to jump with a car, DON'T HAVE THE CAR RUNNING! I really don't understand why Suzuki didn't put a priming circuit on our b4 petcocks. Anyhow, just be aware that after a tip over or running out of fuel, you will need to do A LOT of cranking before it will fire up again. Best of luck to you Nige.
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Thanks :grin: gonna need it.
Just a note, when I tried to start it up after it being tipped, all I got was a single 'click' noise from the battery area. I checked all the electrics (wahey, something I DO know about) and everything was fine, this is the reason I opted to take it to the garage to let them at it, and then it came back with the £350-450 Broken head gasket note on it.
:stickpoke: Prodding you guys for everything you know!!
I wonder why there are so few (if any other than me) UK b400 riders who use this board, time to spread the word my side of the atlantic I think :motorsmile:
Nigel
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Hey guys, this is better than a mechanic any day :lol: Thanks for all the feedback and putting up with me. One thing, the bike only stopped running after it got knocked over, could this be a clue to anything or maybe just a coincidence??
So next step for me is to check if the fuel petcock is broken, I'm guessing this is a simple procedure, any tips?? Gonna go and look at previous posts to see if I can pick up any info.
The manual is great, thanks echomadman. Now to find someone with a decent internet connection to nab it for me :duh:
God damn 56k dialup modems!
Nigel
If the bike only stop running after falling over I believe its not due to the petcock. To check if there is fuel in the float bowl, use a phillip screw driver to loosen the float bowl drain screw you should able to see fuel dripping out, if not than its time to fill those up.
To fill the empty carb w/o cranking until the batt voltage low, here is what I normally do after I clean my carb. I pump fuel out of the petrol tank into a bottle. Then fill the float bowl by pouring the fuel from the bottle, using a small funnel slip on the fuel hose. It also helps if you can off the headlight when cranking because the headlight draws the most current. Hence I have connected a on/off switch to the headlight.
You should also check to see if the spark plugs are wet, as the cylinder could be flooded with fuel from the carb when the bike topple. Remove the plugs and dry them, leave them outside for 30mins to allow fuel to evaporate from the cylinder before reinstalling the plugs.
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Thanks :grin: gonna need it.
Just a note, when I tried to start it up after it being tipped, all I got was a single 'click' noise from the battery area. I checked all the electrics (wahey, something I DO know about) and everything was fine, this is the reason I opted to take it to the garage to let them at it, and then it came back with the £350-450 Broken head gasket note on it.
:stickpoke: Prodding you guys for everything you know!!
I wonder why there are so few (if any other than me) UK b400 riders who use this board, time to spread the word my side of the atlantic I think :motorsmile:
Nigel
You only heard click sound when pressing the start button??? sounds to me your starter motor is not turning it could be the fall have damge the starter motor carbon brush.
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A click? I think it might came from the starter solenoid located somewhere near the battery. And if it is not cranking I guess Bandit is correct. But spend some time checking the connection of the starter system. I think it is better than to tear the starter motor and just to find that some wires is disconnected.
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However I did check in the coolant and there did seem to be a kinda browny deposit at the bottem??? It seemed pretty full to me. Sigh, it just keeps getting more and more confusing.
Rust or other 'dirt'. Drain cooling system and flush/refill. This is a common issue, especially if maintaince on the cooling system hasn't been performed as per instructed by the manual. If it was oil, or even fuel, there would be the rainbow-effect on the surface, since oil/fuel is lighter than water/antifreeze (both have the same specific gravity, hence why they mix). I'd do this soon, if the gunk in the bottom gets bad enough it could cause damage to the water pump, or clog up one of the water pathways in the motor. Being an aluminium block/head, that would be bad if you overheated (could lead to a warped head).
It does sound to me like your petcock is probally leaking, very similiar symptoms to what my '93 did! The bike always seemed to be flooded in the morning, even before I would try and crank it, with moisture that smelled like gas in the cylinders (turns out it was, go figure!).
By the way... welcome aboard!
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Oh, and as to the 'click'...
My bike was doing that too. Guess what? It was the bloody petcock. The motor hydrolocked, after removing the plugs it would crank (fountains of gas shot from the holes!). She fired immediatly after, one new petcock and an oil change later she ran great...
Until I moved and lost the keys. :duh:
I'm not saying the petcock -is- the issue, I'm just saying that it could very well be. The vacuum petcocks these bikes have are just plain old prone to having their diaphrams rot out.
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To check if the petcock diaphragm is really cracked and fuel leak into cyl #1 before paying $$ for a new petcock
1. Remove the fuel tank and support it firmly somewhere such that is higher than the bike.
2.Connect a clear hose to the 'vac' side on the petcock and connect the other end to cyl #1 vac hose
3. Connect a clear hose to the 'fuel' side on the petcock and leave the free end connected to a empty bottle and start the bike. (the reason is to clear the airlock to let the fuel flow, the bottle is to catch the fuel.)
4. When fuel start to flow connect the free end of the clear hose to the carb fuel hose
Start the bike again and you should be able to see from the clear hose if fuel is flowing into the carb and see if fuel is sucking into cyl#1. The above mentioned method is how I use to supply fuel to the carb while syncronising it.
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Good ideas Maniac and Bandit. I was thinking the starting problem was hydrolock, too. When my petcock went, I didn't need to do anything fancy to figure it out. When I popped the tank, gas kept coming from the fuel-line port on the petcock. It was in Prime postition permenantly. Fuel coming through the vac line would do it too. Good luck!
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Just a note, when I tried to start it up after it being tipped, all I got was a single 'click' noise from the battery area. I checked all the electrics Nigel
Did you check the reg/rec and the battery when you checked the lectrics. My reg/rec bust and my battery acid dried up (you should confirm this is not the case visually too), and all i got when starting it was the click. Inspect it for visible damage from when the bike was knocked over too.
My petcock is bust too- i know because when I remove the tank there is freeflow (and heavy) of petrol out of the fuel line (whereas the petcock stopped the flow before). If I disconnect and block up the vacuum hose and the attachment bit on the petcock will my bike run ok? :?:
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My Canadian Bandit has a prime circuit on it
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My petcock is bust too- i know because when I remove the tank there is freeflow (and heavy) of petrol out of the fuel line (whereas the petcock stopped the flow before). If I disconnect and block up the vacuum hose and the attachment bit on the petcock will my bike run ok? :?:
Thats one option!
You can block both ends of the vacuum line with caps and install an inline fuel cutoff valve between the petcock and the carburators. Just remember to turn it off when you park, or else you may get fuel leakage past the floats.
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Hey, sorry I haven't replied but I've been away on work. Just come back and I have to say thanks for all the great help.
I've followed Maniacs advise and drained the coolant, you were right about it being rust, not oil like the mechanic had previously told me so thanks!
It seems too much of a coincidence that everything that I have said has happened to you, I'm going to check out the Petcock and see what I can do about it. After removing the plugs and letting everything evaporate the engine turns over fine with lots of liquid spurting out as you said :sad:
So I think a new petcock is in order. Just to be on the safe side I'm going to get it checked out first but I think you have really hit it on the head.
Thanks all of you guys, a real life saver, just saved me up to £450 on nothing!!! It's a shame people think they can rip you off like that now-a-days, they just see someone who is trying to get into the motorbike world and learn and take advantage. But that's life i guess :roll:
Great site, great people, thanks alot.
Nige (I'll update you guys on how it goes, I'm sure once I get the beast running again I'll be tinkering away, who knows in a years time maybe I'll be the one giving advice :grin: )
:thanks: