Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: Mick77 on June 27, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
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:duh: Well, the valve adjustment went well... except for a few minor details (like the leaky gasket) but I'll get to that. A lot easier than I expected. Moving on... Like an idiot, I neglected to do the minor tests before the major work, and after getting it all back together and still a cold #1 Cyl, I decided to do a spark test on that one. Whaddya know, no freakin spark. Here's the deal though. I swapped the coil packs from one side to the other to try and isolate a coil problem, and see if #4 went cold instead, but it stayed with #1, leading me to believe that the problem was in the valves (stuck, tight, loose, whatever). Is there something I'm missing?? Could the problem actually be in the CDI or somewhere that would be "forgetting" to tell the #1 cylinder to fire? I'm at wits' end here. Bout ready to sell the thing and buy a skateboard. About the leaky gasket.. I figured I'd at least see if it ran right before I bought a thirty dolllar gasket only to trash it taking it back off again and having to buy 2 just to do it all over again. Let me know what yous guys think of it. Can't wait to see what I have to replace next! Ok, I'm done now. Sorry for the :rant2:
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New spark plugs would be my first port of call.
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Vacuum line hooked up to the fuel tank?
The CDI either works or it doesn't. The fact the rest are firing says it working.
Did you take it for a drive? Does cylinder one fire above idle? If so you're looking at a carb problem. Search blocked pilot.
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Man - I've been there with the B4! You didn't swap the leads from one coil to the other when you swapped coils, did you (keeping the lead to #1 with #1)? The reason I ask is the leads SUCK and checking them would have been my first suggestion. I don't see how a valve problem would make that lead not spark.
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Whaddya know, no freakin spark
Hey Mick77
Are you sure it is no spark? or is it no fire?
I would check the following first:
1. Spark plug (likely just replace it, or swap it with a good cylinder)
2. Plug cap and wire. Look for cracks, trim the wire both ends (1/8") and reseat cap and coil
3. Pull the carb drain plug and make sure you have fuel flowing/look for crud.
Next step is likely pull and clean the carbs, then check compression in #1 cyl.
Keep us posted.
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Well, it was late last night and I didnt want to wake the neighbors (again), so it was only a quick test against the cyl. head repeated several times. I'll check a different plug tonight and see if that works, but I just replaced the plugs when I first found the cylinder wasnt firing properly. I tried trimming the wire back and putting the cap back on to no avail, and I have drained that bowl probably 4 times (these days it's like pouring liquid gold outta the carbs) On those coil packs for the B4, are the ends replaceable, or do I have to buy an entirely new coil?
Can you tell that I'm dragging my feet about tearing into the carbs?
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If cylinder 4 is working then cylinder 1 either has a dodgy spark plug or lead. Or carb problems. or valves but you sorted them. Take the plug outve cylinder 1 and put it in the cap and hold the plug to metal and then crank to see if you get a spark.
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I just went to the house for lunch and tried it again. Apparently, i have a spark now. I tried a different plug, but maybe i just missed it last night, cause both plugs are about the same condition. So I'm guessing the carbs will have to come off tonite and I'll look at #1 and run some guitar wire around the holes and such...argh. Unless anyone has any other suggestions, that is. I'll try it with the plug IN when i get home late tonight and see if it's still missing with the different plug.
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well... the good news is that the guy that was gonna sell me the bike just said "take it, it's yours for all your trouble" because he didnt know it needed so much work. He was only selling it to me for 400 bux, but hey, thats 400 bux i can do more work with now YAY! the bad news is that no matter what I've tried nothing makes the #1 cyl fire. Should I try the hotter plug? That , and replacing the cap are my two cheap options left. After that, its pull the head off and do a valve job, hopefully not having to buy any new parts... right... How hard is it to pull the head? Do I have to pull the whole engine? How hard a process is engine pulling? I'm not in over my head yet, but i'm chest deep in banditblues.
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If you have spark, the most likely reason that cyl isn't firing is a plugged up pilot jet. Pulling the carbs and tearing them down and cleaning them will unfortunately become second nature... it did for me, anyway...
If that doesn't work, I would certainly check compression before dropping the motor..
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Pull the carbs and clean them properly before you start digging around taking the engine out etc to do the head.
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Pull the carbs and clean them properly before you start digging around taking the engine out etc to do the head.
+1. That all my b4 needed doing after many hours messing about.
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Ok guys. I let it sit for a couple of days to let some of the madness wear off. I'm glad I didn't just start tearing things apart like I wanted to. I will take the carbs off tomorrow evening and have a look-see. I dont have to separate the 1 carb, right? I mean, on my old twin, I just left them together and took them apart that way, and since its just the one... I plan to consult my handy dandy manual, but I wanted to ask anyway.. Am I going to have to re-sync them once I'm done? My guess is no, as long as it fixes the problem, but if I knew all the right answers, I wouldn't be here asking dumb questions :grin: Once again, I appreciate all of your input. This is an invaluable source of information and help. :thanks: I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
by the way, taking the screw out of the fuel petcock DOES make it flow without a vacuum. Awesome tip, and makes it a heck of a lot easier to start after taking the tank off and draining the carbs. :thumb:
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Yeah you don't need to split the carbs about to clean them.
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Yeah... leave the bank all as one. I always left them connected to the throttle and choke and just rolled them over in basically the same spot (laying towels or something on the frame will keep it from looking like mine did). I didn't resynch after every cleaning. But if you didn't get 'em synched after the valve adjust, I would.
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Although i must admit i have split banks before and its not overly hard if your skilled with the wrenches.
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I searched through my manual for some tips on cleaning out the carb, and it's a little unclear. I plan to thoroughly clean everything that I can see, but which one is the pilot jet? Is it one that is visible with the float bowl off and the float removed? On the last one I did, i just used carb cleaner, compressed air, and guitar string... Think that'll do the trick, or is it much more involved than that?
Thanks for the "flip 'em over" tip. I really wasnt looking forward to disconnecting the throttle cables and all that. That choke cable ate my lunch getting the valve cover off.
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Make sure your remove all plastic/rubber parts before using carb cleaner. Then after that i would remove all the jets out of each carb and clean them with your guitar string. Then blast all through with carb cleaner then the compressed air.
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Cleaned the carb. Found the little jet under the rubber plug next to the main one was plugged solid. It was too small a hole for my string, so I used a lot of air and cleaner to get it open again. Now the bugger doesnt want to start at all. It does this every time I drain the carbs, so I'm gonna buy some ether tonite and light a fire under it. Maybe once I get it started the problem will just *poof* disappear ! I SURE hope that clogged jet was my problem.. I just realized that this thread has totally been off topic since the beginning. Sorry for that guys. :annoy: my fault
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That was surely a major part of the problem, if not the whole thing. As far as starting after carb work, it takes a while to fill the float bowls. If you take the extra screw out of the petcock, you can run the petcock to the 12 o'clock position and get "prime". Fuel will flow nicely. Be sure to move it back to "on" or else you'll just flood it out.
A
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That almost HAD to be the problem.. Like Andrew said, it takes quite a while to prime the carbs. I know you've removed the screw. Prime-em and ride!
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I absolutely can not believe this. Everything is back together, i couldnt start it last night cause I didnt want to wake the neighbors.... really good thing I didnt try. When I start it, it revs to like 10,000 :yikes: and stays there!!!! The only change is if I twist the throttle, then it kinda chokes it down some, but as soon as you let go of the throttle, To the moooooooon again. I mean, I cant even tell if it's running right or not because it sounds like it's gonna eat me! What did I do wrong?? Everythings back exactly like it was, and I even adjusted the idle down so far that the cable came out and I lost the spring. :duh: :rant2: :banghead: :annoy:... these dumb smileys just dont express my exasperation enough. I sincerely thought that I would be riding tomorrow... granted, I'd be bleeding oil all over town, but hey.. anyway... some one give me the magic answer and make this go away, LOL. help?
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If you messed with the throttle cable make sure the butterfly valve on the carb is completely shut. It's also possible you've installed the throttle cable incorrectly. If that's all good, then it sounds like raw fuel is spilling into the cylinders... i'd start by looking at the float o-rings and float needles.
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Guess what. The butterflies were a teeny bit open due to a slightly mis-adjusted throttle cable. BUT #1 is still cold. Here's a thought I had: could that one carb be out of adjustment? Could I maybe lean out the mixture on that one? The spark plug is wet with gas. Which way would I turn the adjustment screw, in or out, and should I try that with the bike running?
You guys might see a WHOLE lot of bandit 400 parts on ebay before too long if I can't make it work... but I love my little bandit.
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I think now we go back to the origin of this thread... do you have spark on that cylinder? The lead connections are REALLY fragile. I'm wondering if with all the screwing around under the tank, if you don't have spark to #1 due to a bad lead/boot connection.
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I pulled the plug, hooked it up to the boot, and placed it on the cylinder head while cranking, and there's a spark. Its not all blue, but blue with white... so there is spark, but maybe not enough? I did that test again last night, and same thing.
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I was digging around the board here, and saw that there is a tiny little o-ring that keeps the "hat looking thingy" on top of the needle inside the carb? When I took mine apart, that hat thingy practically leaped out of my hand, and I never saw an 0-ring... I kept feeling like something was missing, but could not for the life of me find anything or see anything missing... would that also cause serious problems? Man, I feel like such a hoser. :annoy:
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There's no o-ring on the little hat... I think you're thinking of the little bastard that sits under the big black cap. When you take the cap off, there's a small hole with a recessed area around it in the carb body facing up. There's a tiny little oring that lives there sealing that to the cap. You need it. It often sticks to the cap when you take it off and falls off at JUST the wrong time.
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Where you from mick?
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Pitter: You mean the little plug that covers the pilot jet?
Banditmax: I'm from Austin, Texas. Just out of curiosity, what made you ask? I've picked up some funny words talking to different people on message boards about this bike. (like bugger) its one of my favorites :thumb:
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oh, just read my last post.. "hoser" - Strange Brew.. its a classic, and warped me a little
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Sorry man... I didn't describe it well... When you pull the big, black plastic cover off the top of the carb (like trying to get at the needle and diaphram...), there's a hole facing you. THAT'S where the little "bugger" goes! If you go to bikebandit.com and pull up the carb schematic for the 93 B4, it's #29.
BTW - "Take Off" with Getty Lee.... Phenomenal song!
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Oh, yeah, that part. That all went back together ok. I think when I saw that other thread regarding the hat thingy being on the wrong side of the needle, and someone mentioning an 0-ring I just was grasping at any glimmer of hope for resolution I could find. I decided to screw the adjustment screw on that carb back to 2.5 turns out and see what happens. I mean, whats the worst that could happen.... it not run right? sheesh. I'll crank it in the morning and see what happens, then post after I cage my way to work. I also put a full charge on the battery today for grins. What I was thinking with the adjustment screw was this: I have some semblance of spark. I have gas on my sparkplug. So maybe it's just drowning?... I know, thats kinda dumb, but it's what I'm reduced to at this point. THat screw was like 4 turns out. I screwed it all the way in to check, then took it back out 2.5. who knows eh?
"Take off" that's another of my favorites, lol.
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Hello??? How'd you make out???? Hope your out riding!
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Sorry guys, busy weekend. Spent some time fiddling with the bike and getting it all back together and... It fired on all 4!! I was so happy, but couldnt run it without a new gasket on the valve cover. So I took it all back apart and re-aligned the gasket (it was off in one spot, causing it to leak terribly), put it all back together, and in my excitement, fouled the plugs on 2&3 by starting and killing !!!!!!!!!!! Cripes! I spent last night cleaning up 4 plugs and put them back in, but didnt start it at all. When I get home I'm going to start it and ride it and get it good and hot to see what happens. When I started it up the first time and it ran on all 4, it was really rough, so I'm thinking I need new plugs, carb synch, and possibly an adjustment for its rich condition. Some oil came off of it when I ran it down the road (on the second start after putting it together again, when I had 2 bad plugs) but I think that was just residual oil heating up and coming off of the motor where it had leaked.... we shall see. I'll post up again tonite when the verdict is in. :yikes:
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That gasket is a pain in the ass. Sounds like you're getting there... Cool! :bigok:
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Hopefully, this is going to put an end to this topic. I cranked it with the new plugs, and it ran, so I ran it. Had I gone any further, I would have run out of gas AGAIN :annoy: but I caught it in time. Funny how you forget the simple stuff. Gasket held, no leaky, all cylinders firey, just a little on the sluggish side in power, but I figure that has something to do with the mixture being off, and maybe needing to be synched up? Without having a meter to check the synchronization of the carbs, is there anything I can do to help it out? Also, how do I know for sure wether its too rich/ too lean? Gotta pull the plugs again and look at em? Arg, I'm ready for this to end.... I'm soooo close.
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the simplest carb synch tool is a piece of clear tubing with some oil in it. The oil should pull level in a loop dropping down from the carbs...
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fuel screw are for idle and just off idle just a fyi :stickpoke:
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I'm gonna start a new thread for my new issue. If it's not necessary, let me know, and I will just continue here. I think we're almost there.