Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: Wudy on August 15, 2009, 02:41:24 PM
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Hey all!
Here's my first post but I've done soo much reading through here that I feel like a regular already!
I shall have a lot more questions later on I'm sure, but all I want to know at the moment is;
If the bike has a fully charged (and new) battery, but a faulty RR (reg/rect) unit, is it possible for the bike to still start?
I'm thinking it will but I'm hoping that the answers "no" so I can buy a new one and get riding again. If the answer's yes then I'll go ahead and spend a good while typing up what I've tried thus far (problem being no spark anywhere) to find a solution to my woes (5 months now :banghead: )
Thanks in advance :thumb:
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Hey, Wudy... just wanted to say :welcome: to the site. I'm sure our 250/400 guru's will be along shortly. :trustme:
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Cheers :thumb:
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Will the bike start with a good battery and a bum RR? Yes
Is it a good idea to ride it this way? No, because it will probably cook the battery and the voltage spikes can cook the Ignitor unit.
No spark: could be ignition pickup coil (LH case cover), bad signals to coils, bad coils, bad ignitor. Use the manual and a multimeter to eliminate each one.
-Randy
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Thanks for the reply Randy.
Ok, so the answer is "yes" so i'll go through what I've done...
First of all, the story of how it died... (a bit long, but at least all the info's there)
I think it started quite randomly one morning before leaving for work. I just went to start it as normal but it WOULD NOT start at all. Eventually I ran out of battery power so had a go at bumping it, still nothing (and to make me feel even happier, she fell off the side stand to put some scratches on the engine case and bar-end, what a great day!).
So I call the RAC to see what they can do, he connects his battery booster and she fires up straight away: Note: his battery booster was for cars, this must've had a lot more power than even a healthy battery as it turned the engine over faster than it used to normally. When he disconnected the booster the bike faded and died out. After re-connecting and starting again a couple of times she would manage to keep going by herself. So I left her idling and got suited up again and went for a ride, she was fine but could only just about start again afterwards IIRC (I may be wrong, and she might not have started).
There is a chance this started after using my dad's bike charger (optimate 3 IIRC), after trying to charge the battery (as I do occasionally) my battery wouldn't hold the charge for any amount of time. I can't remember if this happened before or after the situation described above.
At this point I should've stopped riding it, I know. But as she's my daily I carried on using it; bought a new charger and charged her up overnight (while waiting for the new battery).
She would start in the morning and be fine riding to work (and enough charge to start fine straight after turning off). But while she sat through the day the battery would discharge and it would only be able to manage about 5 turns of the engine before not having enough to move the engine over. So sometimes it would start other times it would need to be bumped; on a couple of occasions it was very hard to bump start and I almost gave up one time, one last try and it started.
After about a week or so, I was coming out of work early (on a nice warm/hot day, looking forward to a nice ride home), so she started ok. Came out of the underground car park, then waited at some lights. As I pulled away, changed up into second to continue accelerating and at about mid revs the bike just died as if the kill switch has been flicked (it hadn't), lights and ignition were still on though. Nothing would get her going again though.
Called the RAC, but they didn't really know what to do. Confirmed there wasn't a spark though, and towed me home. Note, from here on, the rev counter hasn't moved IIRC. Which is what makes me think CDI.
She hasn't run again since then, that was back in March.
What I've done:
I've checked everything using my service manual. Though I couldn't get a reading on one of the coils, although I was sure this wasn't the culprit (no sparks at all) I bought a second hand pair, tested and used one of them.
Next thing I tried was a new signal generator (shouldn't have bothered as it was more expensive than expected). Still no joy.
After more swearing etc I came to the conclusion that it was the CDI. Bought a new (second hand one, numbers on the front are the same except the small 4 letter/digit code. Mines a '93 Jap import and this is from a '92 of unknown country) and still nothing. Thought I'd check the RR unit using the info in my service manual and my results seemed to show it was faulty but wasn't sure, hence the question above.
By the way, also has a new battery now that's kept trickle charged most of the time, occasionally turn it off to give the battery a break.
I'm sorry if I made something sound confusing there, will clarify anything for you. Just wanted to get everything I've done written down (first time I've gone through it all).
Hopefully someone can get my bike going again!
Thanks again.
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Here's something: make sure that none of the switches that will kill the engine are bad ie:
-handlebar
-clutch
-kickstand
And go from there. It sounds like you've covered your bases well, I'd imagine it's something simple.
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Thanks, well after 5 months I've done everything I can think of, would've thought I'd fixed it by now :banghead:
I'd like to think it was one of those, but with the side-stand and kill switches it stops the engine turning over all together. So that rules them out?
And as far as I'm aware there isn't a clutch switch/sensor, can someone confirm?
My next thing to check is the wiring (for any damaged wires), although I don't hold much hope for that given the way that it died. I'm assuming the ones to check would be everything leading to and from the CDI really?
More ideas please :sad: (still hoping it's something simple!)
And thank you!
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Quoting myself:
So I call the RAC to see what they can do, he connects his battery booster and she fires up straight away: Note: his battery booster was for cars, this must've had a lot more power than even a healthy battery as it turned the engine over faster than it used to normally.
Would it damage the bike if I connected it to a car battery to jump start it? See if I can do the same as the RAC man did with his more powerful battery.
Cheers.
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As long as the car is not running.
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Cheers, I'll give that a go. Failing that, could also ask if the RAC man can come again lol.
Will post the results and go from there :thumb:
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Ok, I haven't tried jump starting it yet as my car is up the road and my dad won't let me use his.
So tonight I figured I'd to some more testing (including re-testing things, but this time noting the results)
Here are my findings so far:
Ignition coils (ohms)
Primary coil: left;3.5 right;3.5
Secondary coil: left;11-19k right;9-19k (14-15k mostly) (spare; 12-19k, using same caps as left). I couldn't get a constant reading on these, while moving the probe around it would flash up a reading now and then.
Coil signal wires (white and black/yellow) are connected between coil and CDI plug (small ~.4ohm resistance)
Orange/white wire connected between left and right coils (.3ohm)
Signal generator; 98.5 ohms (flickers a voltage when (attempting) starting)
Black/blue wire is connected to CDI plug (small .4ohm resistance)
Brown wire is connected to CDI plug (snall .5ohm resistance)
I also followed the info by 'todius' given here (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=2305.msg15465#msg15465) and it seems my RR unit is ok.
I'm not sure if my readings are just incorrect, but it seems a bit of a coincidence that all three coils (two on the bike and one spare one) have the wrong readings on the secondary coils. They're all between 10-19k ohms when they should be 30-50k according to my service manual.
Still not getting 12v to the coils;
There should be 12v going to the primary coils with the ignition on right?
P.S. If anyone sees this from around the Bristol area, I'd really appreciate borrowing your coils! lol
Cheers guys.
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Hi Wudy,
This is a long shot but worth a look.
You got a VV B4 and theyve got a big relay that aint on any other B4's its under one of the side panels, dont remember which as i put mine under the rear seat. But it gets loads of weather and the spade terminals can corrode where they come out of the box and the bike will give your symptoms or the box could be bad. Its the one thats square and about 2"x2" in size being much bigger than the flasher relay or stand relay. I will test mine and post you some info so you can compare.
Chris.
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Hey, thanks for the post Chris.
That would be great. I'll go have a poke around and see what I can find.
Will take some photos and/or readings on whatever I find :thumb:
Cheers
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I don't understand....
That relay seems to have power coming into it from the Regulator/Rectifier which then makes a circuit to some lump of metal on the top of the engine head (has NGK punched into it so I'm assuming it has a link to the VVC, changing the ignition timing as the valve timing changes?).
If i remembered that right anyway. Will take some more photos tomorrow.
I'll get that new relay anyway, but I'm assuming it was the one pictured below?
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u173/Woodinator89/Bandit400/Misc/Photo0129.jpg)
Cheers.
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At the risk of stating the obvious, remember the basics. Sectionalize, localize, isolate...needs air, fuel, compression, spark.
Sounds like not getting spark. So...
Battery good?
Alternator good?
R/R good?
Coils good?
Plugs good?
Fuses good?
My Bandit 1200 does have a clutch switch. Can't start without the clutch pulled IN.
Also, cannot put the sidestand DOWN while in any gear but neutral. (For triggering the pesky magnetic vehicle sensors).
And, FWIW, my 1981 Honda Hawk could be jump started with NO battery, 1986 FJ1200 needed a charged battery or it would NOT start (the alternator needed battery current for the magnetic field of the alternator to generate the spark for ignition, at least to start it!)
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Thanks for the help, but have a read of my post further up (the big one, post #4 (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=12119.msg96726#msg96726), sorry it's so big but it helped to get it clear in my head too) to see my progress. Also checked all the fuses night before last to double check it wasn't them (previously just looked at them, removed them one by one this time to ensure their circuit was being stopped), they're all good.
I've checked all of those and they're all good which is why I'm resting my hopes on this relay. It doesn't appear on the non VC bikes so it's not in any of my wiring diagrams/service manuals (anyone have a service manual for the VVC bike??). And it's definitely wired into the ignition circuit.
I have also since confirmed that it doesn't have a clutch switch, came across a discussion about it on this forum when looking through old posts. The Bandit 400 only came with the clutch switch in the US.
Just about to buy/order this relay if it's not too expensive, or if it's more than i'm expecting I'll do some more testing and wait for Chris' readings. Chris; could you also unplug that relay and see if it starts without it?
Cheers guys.
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Update:
Whoops! I bought it! £68.62, wasn't planning on buying it if it was more than £20 or £30. Oh well, let's hope that's the problem then!
It's called a "Relay Assy Timer" with part no. 32960-33D00
Some other markings on there after cleaning off the dirt (just for reference): G8D-212S 'OMRON' 0423D2
Does anyone know what this actually does? As said before I assume it's something to do with the ignition timing, but how and why? And there's no information online about it, I know the VC is rare but this is just silly lol.
EDIT: Just searched this forum (couldn't do that while I was typing my post) with the part number and there was ONE result (plus my post). It seems it solved his non-sparking problem too. I so hope it works!
Thanks to everyone who helped .I found the problem it was Relay 32960-33D00 Up AND RUNNING :thanks:
Origninal (short) thread here (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=5595)
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Hope it fixes it as i did'nt think you would buy one until i'd had time to post up some readings taken from my bikes relay. As you now got two you can compare yourself. It runs the VV and is part of the tps, cam sensor and oil pressure curcuit, relying on certain readings befor it will trip the oil servo at the top of the cylinder head. Ive had one go bad before and it gives the symtoms you are experiencing. I put mine under the rear seat and have had no problems since.
Chris.
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I haven't got it yet, it would appear I forgot to say it'll be 2 weeks :sad: (could've sworn I said it in the above post, never mind). On back order from Japan.
I wasn't planning on getting it if it was more than £30 or £40, but I figured that if it's not that then I might as well sell the bike, there is actually nothing else it can be lol.
Chris, if you've already done your testing could you still post them up so I can check?
I just found out last night that it has a TPS, I'm assuming the non-VV bikes don't have that?
Cheers :thumb: (still got fingers crossed though!)
P.S. How have you mounted it under the seat? I'll be able to come up with something but just interested to your solution, ta!
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Hi Wudy hopefully this will solve all your problems. If it doesn't i will be back in bristol mid september and could help you out if you still have problems.
Mike
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Hey Mike, I will be updating on here with the results when it arrives so we shall see!
Cheers for the offer :beers:
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Little up date: The relay is now in the store i ordered it at. But i'm working all day, so i've sent my brother to get it sometime today (he's self employed so a lot easier!). Will update tonight on whether it works or not. Oh, and typically british it's started raining, so long for a nice warm ride!
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Hi Wody,
Not been able to post as carnt find my camera (thihk the 12year old may know) and mates got my digy tester. Ive used an old analog one thats crap and i get permenant 12v at the red and 12v at the red/white when the ignitions on, this should feed the orange when everthing is a ok and i think the blk/white is return via the cam sensors. The tester shows low ohm readings between r/w, bl/w and orange and open circuit at the red. Im thinking the red powers the relay and the red/w supplys the orange when the ignition is on and the cam sensors are set correct. If i remove the relay the motor will turn over and 12v at the coils but the motor will not run. Hope its this as if not you are right back at the start again.
Chris.
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She lives!
I had her in the garage, (in a semi-dismantled state, with wires not routed right after testing etc).
I did a couple of tests to make sure that the relay was at fault, and it was (there's a noticable click when the ignition is turned on, but not with the old one).
After working the fuel through she started to bumble into life (rather smokely, I assume this is because it's been sitting for a few months). Once it was idleing ok (still with some choke) I turned her off. Put the spare CDI in (one I bought that turned out not to be the problem) to check that it did actually work, and it still started so turned it off and connected my old CDI back up.
Then I put it all back as it should be, bolted everything back together, and rolled her out of the garage.
Tried to start her again and she WOULD NOT! Grrr!
So after trying for a while, I decided to take the tank back off, and a sparky out. Oh look, I don't have a spark again!
Switched the CDI's (spare on now in the bike) and she sparked again.
Put it all back together, again, and she started again.
Went for a lil ride and all was good. Was going gentle on her but she still goes well!
It would appear that my CDI had just died then? But it was definitely the relay at fault.
Chris: You posted that as I was typing mine. But thanks for those anyway :thanks:
Cheers for all your help guys! :thumb:
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:bigok:You carnt tell me nowt about the VV that i dont know as ive had one for 12/13 years now and ive had every problem under the sun and then some. Still love the bike tho. I wrap some bubble rap around the relay and then just put it behind the cdi and it keeps all the crap off it. Glad its fixed the bike and you can go out and scare some 600's. :congrats:
Chris.
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Haha I hope you stay around on the forums for however long I have my bike! Can't find anything about the VVC system online (in terms of fault finding etc).
Will sent you a PM sometime as I have a few questions (nothing urgent).
Yea that'll have to wait a bit though, still have to do my oil & filter change and I need to get used to her again.
Been riding my brothers Bandit 600 ('02) now and then, and the B4 feels so twitchy handling wise, and the brakes are so much better.
Needs a wash as well lol, 5 months sat in the garage has left a little layer of dust over everything. Will get some more photos when/if the sun comes out again.
Andy.
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Woop! Passed her MOT with no problems today.
Forks are a bit stiff though, had a chat to the guy there today (he replaced a fork stanchion and seal a little while before she died). He's going to try a 5w oil, he put 10w in there before which is what he thought was correct from the info he had. Also going to replace the other fork seal replaced at the same time as that's not sealing all that well.
What's the correct oil? Any other reasons for it being stiff? He said they went together fine and operate smoothly.
Cheers.