Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: tomacGTi on August 16, 2005, 07:07:34 PM
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This one is long-winded, so grab a chair.
So after riding with Rob and the gang on Sunday, I pretty much confirmed that the rear shock that I had procured on FleaBay (GSXR 1100) was verklempt. It defineately was not doing it's job and is a bummer because as all things used, there is no warrranty and it's as is.
How is it verklempt? No dampening whatsoever. No matter where the dials were turned, it basically kicked back with only the weight of the bike acting as control. It certianly explained why it felt like it was going to buck me off on faster undulations and why it was so uncomposed diving into certain corners. After rebuilding the suspension fork on my mountain bike, I decided to try something: see how much pressure was in the remote chamber of the rear shock: zero. After finding out how much it was to rebuild the shock and just how much time it would take to get the thing serviced; let alone just nitrogen charged, it would cost the same to roll the dice and find another e-bay shock. I decided to experiment a bit with the one I had considering the other options available. On top of that, I'll be hitting the road for a month so I had more than enough time with the other options available to me if this little experiment didn't pan out.
After finding out what was the cause, I grabbed a fork pump that I use to inflate the suspension on my mt bike and started pumping. Lo and behold, at 250psi, things started to work again. I also checked things at 100, 150, 200 and as high as 275 PSI but things were most stable and functional at 250. I decided to do some research as to the pressures used in these chambers and it basically went from 150-300 psi, pretty much what I had figured out already. So now, where to find nitrogen to do it right?
Once again, after some interweb searching, whipped cream dispensers use canisters of nitrogen to turn heavy cream into whipped cream. After searching out a local kitchen shop, it was off to purchase some. Be forwarned that they will expect you to use these to get high with, they were referred to as "whippets" back in the day and apparantly still now. So now I have my canisters of nitrogen, now I need a dispenser: Co2 inflator, once again for my bicycle. After doing some slight modifying to the holder (the nitrogen cartidge is smaller than a 12g Co2 cartridge) I decided to give it a shot.
I emptied the air that was in the reservoir (it also confirmed it was holding pressure) I connected the inflator and pulled the trigger. I wasn't expecting one to do it, but it did with room to spare. I put my shock pump back onto the fitting and it was way beyond the 300psi line. I bled it down to 250 and checked the clickers. After going to either extreme (to make sure the oil was where it needed to be) and setting the clickers at full soft, I started to dial things in: it started to have compression and rebound dampening again. After correcting for sag and matching it up the best I could to the fork (which has Progressive springs and 15wt oil, I must have looked like I was dry-humping a mule bouncing up and down on the thing) it starts to rain.
So at the very least, I got the baseline settings in for the rear shock, and things seem to be working once again. Hopefully the weather will clear enough to see if this little experiment will hold.
So for the cheapskates like me:
-EBeg shock: $100 (with shipping, yes I know, there was a run on these at the time)
-Nitrogen cartidges: $7.50 for 10. If you use all 10, you're doing something really wrong.
-Inflator: $20 (plus the .18$ in change I used to shim up the catridge, literally.)
I'd say the $130 or so is still cheaper than a $400+ one. The aggrevation however...This is also in comparison to the $25 labour charge a shop was going to charge me, 3 days turnaround and an additional charge for Nitrogen to charge the shock with.
-Randy
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Great write-up, Randy. Very cool. Keep us posted on how it rides and stays charged.
For those of you that don't follow all the forums on the board (shame on you!), Randy and I rode with some other guys from the board on Sunday. Click here (http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=2202) for details/pics. He's got a pretty cool B4 with a Buell flyscreen, Renthal-style bars....
You must have been hating life on Sunday. Some of those roads had to be a little scary. Hell, I caught some air twice while you were with us, I think (and once again after :lol: ).
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I wouldve recharged it for free bro all you had to do was ship it to ohio ! and pay for shipping back !
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Rob: sadly, I think I got used to it as scary as that may have been. I hope this rain will hold off tomorrow so I can give it a shot on some familliar roads. I was so pissed that I may have gotten taken on my purchase so I thought I'd at least try to make it better. I didn't have anything to lose is the way I looked at it.
Racer: if only I knew man! At least you know now that whippets are useful for:
-Concert goers/high school kids getting high
-Making whipped cream the old-school way
-Charging your 10 year old rear shock
I'm just hoping I guessed the pressure right, if not, I guess I'll be doing seals in the near future!
-Randy
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And bad headacs! LOL :stickpoke:
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Alright, so I had the chance to ride the bike today and boy what a difference!
All the places it would get upset mid corner are taken in stride and all of the undulations that would feel as though you're about to be bucked off are gone.
All of the settings are correct (I matched it to the fork) and I'm just hoping that I didn't over pressurize the shock.
But, all is never perfect (at least in my world anyway) and today the bike was dropped for the first time in my possesion: after someone rear-ended me. Thank goodness I was at a complete stop and slowly rolling forward at a traffic light when the driver's foot "slipped" off of the brakes.
I'd estimate I got "bumped" by him at about 5-10mph. I have all of his information and my back is a bit sore (but liveable) but now I have to figure out how much damage was done to the bike. The bar end mirror is definately scraped and slightly bent, the LH peg feels a bit off and the case was scraped. Now the question is: how to follow this all up when I have to be on the road for the next month?
What a PIA.
-Randy
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Wow, that sucks Randy. Glad you're realatively OK.
Make sure you check the peg bracket. They are fragile and pretty darn expensive.
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live by the creed that has served the American public so well
SUE SUE SUE LMAO
sorry to here about the accident hope your back is OK
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Thanks for the hint Rob.
I have a peg on the "list of things wrong" but didn't think to include the peg bracket. So far, the tally is a tick under $300 but the bracket will certainly creep things up a bit.
Physically I'm fine and I'm so against the suing game but if this guy doesn't at least offer to fix the damage that he caused, I'll have to go that route.
What a PIA...
At least the rear shock is better.
-Randy
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Great info on re-surrecting the shock! :motorsmile:
I hope you had an accident report written up on the mishap?
Sorry, I don't have much faith in the good intentions of people, once they're out of your sight.
I've had too many instances where a perfectly reasonable person promised to pay for some damage....maybe made a few payments toward the amount, and never was seen again.
Winning a suit in small claims court doesn't guaranty much. It sucks up more of your time, cost more $$, and there's no means to force them to actually pay.
FWIW, I had a minor accident on my B12 when it was fairly new.
A day after I bolted on a new slip on, and case guards, a girl ran a red light, and I dropped the bike while avoiding her blasting by at 40 mph.
Luckily, she stopped, and came back. ( I was prepared to upright the bike, and chase her butt down...) A cop arrived, and gave her a ticket....and wrote a report.
I prepared a list of everything that even had a minor scratch on it, and accepted a check from her insurance company in that amount.
(Slipon, OEM mirrors, bar end, new case guards...etc.)
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Pete,
PA is a no-fault state. Pretty much, unless it can't get out of it's own way after an accident or someone is taken away in an ambulance, you're fighting it out with the insurance company.
I have all of the person's information as far as insurance, home address, DL number. Of course I forgot to get the plate number (doh) but I know the year, make, model and color of the car as well as where he lives.
He's getting one chance before I crucify him in the eyes of his insurance company. I've gotten stuck with stuff like this before with people and just as long as you have everything info-wise, you should be good (in theory anway). How good could it possibly look to RUN INTO the back of a stationary motorcycle?
I'm just happy I walked away and was able to pick the bike up and ride off on it. Thing could be much, much worse.
-Randy
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thats nitrous oxide (NOS/ N2O) in those canisters as far as i know, not straight nitrogen, but if it works it works,
:congrats:
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Randy, I'm not trying to beat this to death, and maybe the cops in PA won't respond to a minor accident....but...if they do show up, maybe they'll actually verify who this turkey is, the drivers license, insurance and tag are valid....etc.
I've been in minor accidents all over the US, and have always called the police.
Wait...that doesn't sound 'good'.... :shock:
I've driven tractor trailers way over 2 million miles, and have had a lot of idiots run into ME! Even when there's no damage to my truck....I've gotten an accident report written by the police...or attempted to.
(One exception was in VA, where somebody ran into my truck parked on private property. They wouldnt' write a report.)
I was a victimof a hit and run a long time ago, where I had the tag number, description of the car.....and there was matching damage on the car....but the guy had witnesses that 'he was home' at that time......and never left. Yeah...right. :annoy:
Anyway, the important thing is you're OK. :motorsmile:
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Randy, did you have to modify the shock or bike to fit the GSXR 1100 shock?
Also what is the spring rate like? Ok for a 100kg (220lb) rider?
After reading a bunch of threads on here about rear shocks, I got myself a GSXR 1100 shock today from the wreckers. I'm not sure what year it is, but it's got the remote reservoir and looks like it's about 6mm longer than the standard b4 shock.
I tried putting it straight on the bike, but I'll need to grind part of the top bracket or top of the shock and also part of the bottom of the shock or the bottom cushion lever in order to get the holes to line up.
I just thought I'd check before modifying it since it wasn't cheap and if I start grinding it I won't be able to return it if it doesn't work.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8693.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8696.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8698.jpg)
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Hey Eric,
Judging from the pictures, it looks like you won't have much meat left on the top of the GSXR shock if you grind it to fit. I don't think I would be comfortable myself taking that much off, but it's your call of course.
It sounds like you have the option of returning the shock and getting something else, and that's what I would suggest. I have a shock from a 93 GSXR 750. It has remote reservoir like yours, but it is exactly the same length as the stock Bandit, and it slots right in, no grinding required.
Regards,
Steve
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You can see in these pics how much grinding would be necessary:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8699e.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8701e.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8703e.jpg
I think it would be ok, but I'd rather not have to do it.
I'll try phoning the one other local wrecker and then maybe try out of town.
I'm somewhat torn between trying to get one locally and support the local wreckers or sourcing one from ebay which might actually turn out cheaper than locally - this shock cost me US$222 (NZ$350) which was similar to what other local wreckers were asking (like NZ$300 for a '98 GSF1200 shock).
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Well, I decided to try and return the shock and look for a gsxr 750 one. Luckily the wrecker gave me a full refund.
After phoning most of the wreckers in the country, I found 1 gsxr 750 shock down in Mt Maunganui for NZ$250. There's also a few shocks on ebay that I've got my eyes on.
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Eric,
Sorry for the delayed reply, I haven't been near a reliable internet connection in a couple of days.
I had to grind down a similar amount to the mounting tab on my GSXR rear shock. Everything has been fine for several thousand miles. It seems like more than you think but really all you do is grind it at an angle and it's not much at all. Search the b12 forums or even Google, there was an article/pic post about it.
As far as the spring rate is concerned, I'm probably 165-175 with gear. I have the preload down about halfway and still have about 25-30mm of sag on the bike. I think you may be on the upper end of the spring, but only trying it will help.
-Randy
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turned out the wrecker was wrong about having a 750 shock, so I ended up buying the gsxr1100 shock again that I originally bought then returned!
I've done the grinding/filing to get it to fit, it looks like it'll be ok hopefully.
Had to take some meat off the top of the shock and also a little bit off the bottom bracket and smooth out the lower linkage a bit.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8779e.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8780e.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/IMG_8781e.jpg
I just have to regrease the link bearings a bit then find a slightly longer bolt for the bottom end of the shock, and I can fit it and see how it goes!
I also picked up some 2005 kawasaki z750s fork springs, they're constant rate 1.08kg/mm springs, same diameter as the B4 springs (35.4mm) so will fit right in. I'll just have to see if they're too stiff or not.
It's a pity the weather forecast for this weekend here is really bad or I'd do a lot of test riding to make sure they're all ok for the trackday I'm going to next weekend.
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The grinding you did pretty much looks like mine. I've been running that shock trouble-free (for the most part) for the past couple of thousand miles or so.
IIRC, I used the stock hardware to re-install the shock. I didn't have to hunt down a new bolt. Also, when you install the new springs, you should also look into changing the fork oil so that the dampening will match the new spring rate. With 10wt oil, I can see that thing coming back like a pogo stick.
Good luck
-Randy
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Well, I finished installing the shock and have been riding around on it a couple of weeks now.
The height at the rear has raised 20mm (unladen).
The new shock has allowed me to set the laden sag to a reasonable level of 31mm compared to the 60mm with the stock shock with preload fully cranked up. I could reduce the laden sag even more with the new shock, but I think 31mm is supposed to be about right.
I've got the compression and rebound damping at their middle settings.
Anyway, it seems to be a significant improvement over the original, I haven't had any spine-compressing jolts when going over bumps and haven't scraped the exhaust or centrestand in corners which happened all too easily with the stock shock.
I tried the Z750S fork springs briefly, but I think they are in fact too stiff. The stock ones aren't way too bad, at least they don't bottom out with the preload correctly set.
I'm not a racer and don't know how to fine tune suspension. That's something I've still got to learn. But it's good enough for me as it is :)
Here's a few pics of the shock installation.
http://s38.photobucket.com/albums/e118/edorp/bandit%20shock/
Oh yeah, I also discovered the tool kit under the pillion seat. It was a surprise, I didn't know b4's came with one. Looks like it's never been opened.
On another note, I took the bandit to a trackday last weekend and managed to low side, I guess due to trying to lean the bike over further mid corner to tighten my line and the new, commuting rear tyre disagreed with me. The bike is pretty much ok, the brake lever broke, but I had a spare. The front indicator stalks broke and the right handlebar bent (the turn was left hand and the bike flipped onto its right side when it met the dirt). It's got a few new scratches on the crankcase and tank, but overall I think it did pretty well! I was able to change the brake lever, tape up the lights (and my riding gear) and keep on riding. I just have to find a new set of handlebars now when I've got the time.
Next trackday I think I'll try and get leathers rather than cordura riding gear and stickier tyres rather than commuting ones... ;) But that's going to have to wait till I've finished uni at the end of the year.
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ouch! You're taking it pretty well! If i lost control on the riding situation i would hate myself for at least some weeks!
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ouch! You're taking it pretty well! If i lost control on the riding situation i would hate myself for at least some weeks!
The way I see it is if it's on a track, it's all part of learning.
On the road it's a different story since there's a much higher chance of hurting yourself or someone else on the road.
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i guess yes, but OTOH to see your bike with boken bits on it, you know you just replaced.. gives me a sting :sad: