Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: banditcilik on March 18, 2005, 10:57:51 PM
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Hi, I really need help with my bike. I posted my Q on the old website about engine reluctant to start. After visit several service station finally there's one mechanic who clearly point the culprit. For cold start the spark doesn't show until some ten or more engine cranking. But he can not confirm whether it is a igniter problem or pick up coil problem since he doesn't have other unit to swap them and experimenting. Strangely when the engine already hot, this problem also happens. I really really hate to replace the black box since it costs me a fortune. Does anybody know or experienced this kind of problem??
Thanks
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There are ways to test just about every component of the electrical system with a multimeter, except for the igniter (although if everything else works fine, it's pretty much a process of elimination thing). I don't have my manual available at the moment, maybe someone else can look up the procedure for checking the pickup and coils? I can't recall if there is one for checking the regulator or not.
If the igniter -is- bad, and you are handy with a soldering gun, you may be able to repair it yourself. Several people on the board have done so. Check http://forums.banditalley.net/viewtopic.php?t=431 for more information!
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Gosh, Maniac just when I read through the link given by you then I remember one stupidity I've done. I jump started this bike after a major paintwork! Do you think replacing the capacitor will fix my bike or better to check the pick up first?
Thanks.
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I'd check the pick up first, just because it's easy to do and requires no major disassembly (unless it tests bad, then you have to pull the side cover).
What kind of condition are the High-Voltage leads on the ignition coils? I've heard of a few people pulling the caps and trimming the leads a bit before reinstalling the caps do to cracks and such in the wires. That could cause an intermittent spark problem, but I'm not sure if you'd get the consistant problem you are reporting.
The CDI work is a major undertaking, seperating the casing frightens me a little since if you screw it up you can make the problem worse. I'd tackle that only after checking the rest of the electrical system for faults. Don't forget to check your kill switch contacts as well, mine were dirty and causing wierd missfire/no-start problems for a while.
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That sux dude. I had the same problem with mine. The only difference is that after a while the byke did not want to start anymore. I changed the capacitors on the Ignitor then it worked perfectly for a couple weeks and shoooo the same problem again. I took it to a friend of mine who tested it and found out that that the regulators inside the box were defective i had to orderd them and replace them. Worked fine, i have sparks on all the cylinders. Anyway, now i m having other problems does not idle... :duh:
Good look.....
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Now this scares me a li'l bit badidou. After reading the link maniac gave me I thought fixing the black box is a simple matter of capacitor replacement. Do you mean there's a regulator module inside the CDI? How do I check the problem inside CDI?
Thanks
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No worries man.
Check out this website:
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/2/2sd798.htm
It's what we replacedd on the CDI box, and it worked.
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You replaced a transitor not the capacitors. They rarely fail. I'd go back in and change the right parts this time
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Actually i replaced both. The capacitors first it worked ok for couple weeks then the same problem. :soapbox: Then i changed the transistors and it worked.
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OKAY let me jump into this cdi shit. I just bought a used gsxr 400 cdi for my bike and no go junk. So isa got to be fixxn it .But i found something new out. but first let me ask a question from you all . On your wirring harness the 2 plugs that go to the CDI box. the big one has 4 wires and the little one has, how many?????????????????
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Actually i replaced both. The capacitors first it worked ok for couple weeks then the same problem. :soapbox: Then i changed the transistors and it worked.
I don't know where those transistors are in the circuit, but transistors don't likely fail unless they either overheat or are hit with a power surge. I'd have your voltage regulator checked out ASAP, it's possible that it's not doing it's job, which lead to the failure of those transistors.
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I have to agree with Maniac, there's a reason the transistors failed. Like he said maybe a power surge or the bike may have had the wrong ignition coils put on it. There is the slight possability that the capacitors caused the transistor to fail but I would look else where to the sure .
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I have a faulty spare bandit 400 which I tried to repair by replacing the capacitors and it didn;t work. I have check with a local bikeshop and they told me they have successfully repair the bandit400 successfully by replacing the transistor.
I like to know is this the correct spec for the transistor posted on the website for replacing the old one on my CDI board? because I couldn't find any reading on the old transistor.
2SD 798
NPN - DARLINGTON / 600V / 6A / 30W/B>1K5
TO220 = 2SD1071
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Actually THE REFERENCE NUMBER FOR THE ONE I REPLACED is: 2SD1071 HOWEVER THE 2SD 798 LOOKS LIKE IT'S COMPATIBLE. i WOULD DOUBLE CHECK WITH A VENDOR BEFORE TO INSTALL IT.
I BOUGHT THEM FROM "Tinkertronics, 512-926-4420, 1133 Airport Blvd, Austin, TX, 78702". You can call them
I was really impressed to be able to order them through the regular chanel without having to spend hours online and try to figure out which one is which. As it happened to me when i had to replace the capacitors it was just pain in the ass to get the heat-treated one. [/img]
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How the hell do i add a picture to my message?/?????? :duh: [/img]
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It has to be hosted somewhere like bikepics.com or imageshack.com. Once it is hosted, right-click the pic, select properties and copy the url (ending in an image extention like .jpg...). Paste the url into your message with the image tags before and after it and it will show-up in your post.
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(http://predator.bikepics.com/icon/suzuki-bandit400-93-bikepics-315675.jpg)
thanks pitter, hope it worked.
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:oops: too small
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:oops: too small
You took the properties of the thumbnail rather than the actual pic. This better?
(http://predator.bikepics.com/pics/suzuki-bandit400-93-bikepics-315675.jpg)
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Awesome, it looks a lot better :congrats:
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I have an additional transistor on my CDI board which is different from the picture posted.
T5, T4(same as picture) and T1(additional transistor) describe on my board.
My CDI part number is 32900-10D60
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The boards in the picture actually do have T1. It is the rectangular green component just above the circle around the four capacitors. How does your board look different? My part number is 32900-10D00 and it looks like the bottom board in the picture.
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(http://www.picturesky.com/albums/userpics/11010/normal_CDI%20001.jpg)
This is the picture of my CDI, I have desolder 5 capacitors including the one beside the Kokusan chip, I have not taken a new pic with new capacitors yet.[/i]
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part numbers for usable gsxr CDI's 32900-32C00 and 32900-32C10
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Hi,
I guess I'm trying to localized problem with my bike by eliminating each possibility before I tear off the CDI box. Following some of the posting that bad regulator could damage the CDI, I felt I need to test the regulator first. Bandit manual says that reading on 5000 rpm should be between 13-15V. Mine is steadily at 13,75V.
My bike usually start with 10 to 15 cranks or so but then I found a strange thing. This morning I set the ignition key to 'on' and crank it once and I thought I leave it on for a while to charge the suspected 'bad capacitor' inside the CDI. After 15 minutes I came back and push the start button, voila! It went live instantly. Is this really an indicator of a bad capacitor or it is just incident (cause I only try once)?
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I'd suspect this is more luck than anything. Capacitors charge quickly... in microseconds. They have to to fire the spark plugs at the kind of RPM these engines turn.
Keep in mind 10,000 RPM is 167 revolutions per SECOND. :shock:
That means the ignition box has to fire 334 times a second.
(At 10K RPM)
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Maybe it is the fact for good capacitor Red, but if the same thing also happens with bad capacitor then why do we have to replace them? I'm not expert in this so I don't know the real facts. I guess the caps just don't hold or charge as good as the new one.
This is quoted from post by badidou or datsunk (I forget) :
Oh man my bandit's CDI just broke down the other day... Used my friend's CDI and test on my bike... No problem... When i use back my old CDI, have to start a few times... So went to change the capacitors... Bought it at $0.80(singapore) for 4 capacitors... Went to find a person to solder for me and he charge me $10 but i gave him $20 cos he says hard to solder... Then after fixing it still have difficulty starting... but after starting and took it for a spin now it's running good... Maybe have to charge up the capacitor... Hope the CDI dun go hay-wire again....
Well. should give another try I guess.
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Caps charge fast, thats true...
Damaged caps 'leak' voltage and don't charge (I don't think 'charge' is the right term, but it's close enough) as much. If the damage is really bad, they won't charge at all. Voltage leaks on a system such as this are bad, since I suspect the Caps are part of the timing circuit, if they start to come out of spec then the timing circuit won't function correctly, and that will cause the system to not send a 'fire' signal.
I suspect that the transistors a few people replaced are PNP Power Transistors, which are designed for use in Amplifiers and Switching Circuits. Seeing that, since I plan on replacing the caps in mine I may as well nail those Transistors too.
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So Maniac,
do you suggest to replace the twin transistor also? Anybody know how to test this semiconductor if they are still in the spec tolerance?
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The Caps are there to protect the transistors. The transistors are the switches that turn the coils on and off to fire the plugs. When the transistor open the primary curcuit to fire the coil not only is a high voltage of up to 40000 volts produced in the secondary windings of the coil but a voltage is also produced in the primary windings as well. Up to 500 volts, and it heads back to the transistor. The transistors don't like 500 volts going though them so the Caps are there to absorb the shock.
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The Caps are there to protect the transistors. The transistors are the switches that turn the coils on and off to fire the plugs. When the transistor open the primary curcuit to fire the coil not only is a high voltage of up to 40000 volts produced in the secondary windings of the coil but a voltage is also produced in the primary windings as well. Up to 500 volts, and it heads back to the transistor. The transistors don't like 500 volts going though them so the Caps are there to absorb the shock.
That being said... yeah, I'd probally consider replacing the transistors.
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Guys...guys...help!
Continuing the checking procedure of my sparkless problem I checked the coils. Readings are still within specs : primary is 3 Ohm and secondary is 30 some (manual specs for primary is 2.8 - 3 Ohm and 30K - 50K Ohm for secondary). So I guess my coils is still healhy.
This is it, I follow some of you guys, tearing the black box. Inside it looks similar to picture posted by bandit but different from Pitter's. It has two diodes near the capacitors (Pitter's CDI has what looks like two resistors).
Here's the link at bikepics, hope they'll let it be for a while :
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/323082/
Now, the problem is the gummy thing on the circuit board keeps the board stick with upper half of the box. I don't want to forcefully detaching the board. I'm afraid it may break. Do you guys know some kind of solvent to ease removal of this gum? I can't read what type of the transistors, the gum is all over it.
Any advise will be appreciated, thanks.
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Guys...guys...help!
Continuing the checking procedure of my sparkless problem I checked the coils. Readings are still within specs : primary is 3 Ohm and secondary is 30 some (manual specs for primary is 2.8 - 3 Ohm and 30K - 50K Ohm for secondary). So I guess my coils is still healhy.
This is it, I follow some of you guys, tearing the black box. Inside it looks similar to picture posted by bandit but different from Pitter's. It has two diodes near the capacitors (Pitter's CDI has what looks like two resistors).
Here's the link at bikepics, hope they'll let it be for a while :
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/323082/
Now, the problem is the gummy thing on the circuit board keeps the board stick with upper half of the box. I don't want to forcefully detaching the board. I'm afraid it may break. Do you guys know some kind of solvent to ease removal of this gum? I can't read what type of the transistors, the gum is all over it.
Any advise will be appreciated, thanks.
Your CDI looks exactly like mine, the capacitors orientation. Probably your bandit is exported from Singapore to Indonesia because the used bandit400 is not fetching $$ here.
Mine CDI board sticks to the casing by glue as well, I use a glue remover, basically acetone to apply on the glue to soften it and scrape off with a flat blade screwdriver, becareful not to damage the electronics. After you removed most of the glue you should be able to remove the board by pulling it out, not upwards or downwards because the board is sitting inside a groove.
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You're right Bandit. It is from S'pore. Now for the twin transistor does it mean 2SD798 can be replaced by 2SD1071? Are these only transistors to replace? What about the third?
And which capacitors should I replace?
Appreciate.
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BTW, is it OK to soak the whole circuit board to solvent like acetone?
Thanks
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I would replace the capacitors first. If it still does not work replace the transistors.
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BTW, is it OK to soak the whole circuit board to solvent like acetone?
Thanks
I think better not soak it in acetone. Check the previous post to see which capacitors to change.
I emailed kokusan Denki for the rating of the transistor, not sure if they will reply me.
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Does it looks like 2SD798 or 1071? I don't see those letters on my transistors.
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/324733/
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Does it looks like 2SD798 or 1071? I don't see those letters on my transistors.
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/324733/
The right transistor on your pic looks burnt. 2SD798 is a replacement for 1071 (maybe its obsolete) .
2SD 798 spec as per follow
NPN - DARLINGTON / 600V / 6A / 30W/B>1K5
http://www.donberg.ie/descript/2/2sd1071.htm
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http://users.rcn.com/kochc/moto/spark/ig_repair.html
Another website for ignitor repair (Honda), additional tips to check.
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The circuit board was successfully off it's case and I did some cleaning with acetone. This morning I decided to plug it back, just want to make sure I didn't damage anything in the cleaning process.
First try, and the engine instantly ran. But strange thing, it climbed for higher RPM hardly and abruptly.
I will try to replace the caps anyway and see what will hapen.
Bandit, do you know what type for the one cap next to the kokusan denki chip? I melt its wrapping on the cleaning process.
Appreciate.
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The circuit board was successfully off it's case and I did some cleaning with acetone. This morning I decided to plug it back, just want to make sure I didn't damage anything in the cleaning process.
First try, and the engine instantly ran. But strange thing, it climbed for higher RPM hardly and abruptly.
I will try to replace the caps anyway and see what will hapen.
Bandit, do you know what type for the one cap next to the kokusan denki chip? I melt its wrapping on the cleaning process.
Appreciate.
If your bike can be fire up in one click dun think its the CDI problem, more like you have a leak somewhere which cause the bike to run lean. Please check did you install the carb properly or are you missing or have worn o-rings in your carb,
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The fuel supply was checked so many times and the problem stays. Carbs vacuum were calibrated, jets setting were adjusted, carbs were cleaned several time. The last time I brought her to Suzuki and the mechanic confirm that it has ignition problem. It is just impossible to try swapping the unit with other bikes since no other B4 being serviced and they got no stock for new blackbox.
Anyway it's already torn off.
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The fuel supply was checked so many times and the problem stays. Carbs vacuum were calibrated, jets setting were adjusted, carbs were cleaned several time. The last time I brought her to Suzuki and the mechanic confirm that it has ignition problem. It is just impossible to try swapping the unit with other bikes since no other B4 being serviced and they got no stock for new blackbox.
Anyway it's already torn off.
The bandit airbox is a bitch to installed, I have the tacho surging problem last time and it was due to one of the airbox rubber boot not matching up with the carbs correctly causing air leak.
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The bandit airbox is a bitch to installed, I have the tacho surging problem last time and it was due to one of the airbox rubber boot not matching up with the carbs correctly causing air leak.
FWIW - I've had mine off more times that I can count. It's SOOOO much easier if you take the top off and the filter out and reach your hand in each intake to push the boots on.
In addition to vacuum leaks, RPM surging can be caused by out-of-synch carbs.
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I really doubt that my problem is caused by fuel/air problem. Just before I do anything to the CDI I started the bike and it was OK, except for time consuming cranks it took to start.
Now I already got two capacitors replaced but the engine is still difficult to reach higher RPM. It starts instantly though.
I checked the sparks and wow it is clearly stronger than it was before.
I'm not yet installing new transistors since I just found out that it is quite expensive.
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Is your byke working only with 2 cyl?
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I have check with a local electronic shop, the transistor on the CDI board is D1976 made by Hitachi and the direct replacement for D1976 is BU806. :beers:
This was check on their catalogue book, so its not hoax, however I am skeptical he told me BU806 is better than D1976. :blahblah:
Things I have change on my spare CDI board are
Capacitors
47uF35v (85deg c) - 2pcs
10uF40v (105 deg c) - 2pcs
10uF25v (85deg c) - 1pc near the kokusan
Transistor
BU806 - 2pcs
However when I installed this faulty spare CDI on the bike, it wont fire. :stop: while the one on my bike fires up in 1 click. :banana:
There is 1 more transistor on the board, I can't see what is the part number, I will check with the electronic shop once I got it out. :boohoo:
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Rob, sorry that I used to many space in this thread.
Thanks to all of you that contribute so many useful information to my problem. This morning I went to my office riding my B4. It went smooth as before. Apparently the answer to my last problem posted is that I should reattach gas supply aka gas tank. Shortly after I did that the abruption has gone. Bike start with only one push and I never has to replace the transistor (thanks again to you Bandit, I would like to keep your info. maybe for a future 'upgrading trial' I will replace those TR).
This board is so helpful, in fact I never get any help from internet that is so comprehensive as this board.
If you guys happen to visit my neighbourhood just contact in case I can help.
You guys rock!!