Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 250 & 400 => Topic started by: gsxr400 racer on October 15, 2006, 07:43:49 PM
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(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9554/speedlimiterml6.jpg)
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you should read this explains what to look for and how to fix your restriction!
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 13:44:24
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Hi as some of you may know I have been building a GK73A back up to use as a track bike. I have now got it running pretty good. So loaded it up on me trailer and took it to the local air strip to give it a shack down. All well ok, but I am interested in if it is running as quick as it should be. As I have limited sports bike experience I have little to compare the performance to. I managed to get 13000rpm out of top gear, and pretty sure it is on standard gearing, does this sound ok. My road bike is a YZF600R thundercat and it is definatly slower than that.
The bike starts to pick up at about 8000rpm and kicks abit more at 10000rpm and pulls hard to 13500rpm then it starts to tail off a little though, it will rev on to 15000 though just a slight reduction in power. not sure where the limiter is in it.
Also what is the standard sprocket/ gear sizes, so I can check that it is standard.
Thanks
Gavin
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 17:11:58
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i have 15 47/48 i use ! you have the 17 " rear or the 18" rear tire/rim do you have 3 wires to the small plug on the cdi or 2
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
youroddsox
Familiar Member
403 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 17:23:56
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my gearing is similar to jays, just slightly shorter than stock for the track. Should be able to get a few more revs. In top condition mine was pulling well to 15.5/16 krpm but mine is a 76
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www.soxracing.s5.com Taking on the world with a GSX-R400 gk76a!!!
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 21:06:59
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Yes my GK73 has a 17" rear wheel, and it is not an SP model. I have just look at the sprockets and its 14/45 I think this is standard?? What gear ratio do you recommend for track use. What sort of speed was it doing at 13000rpm on standard gearing.
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 21:16:29
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do you have 3 wires to the small plug on the cdi or 2 this is what i want to know?
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 04/12/2006 : 21:35:07
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It has got 3 wires. Does that make me a winner? Only joking what does this mean.
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 00:43:39
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I have been doing some idle research on this most seem to think there bike runs fine but what you exclaimed is the same as me your bike is resricted as i beleive all the ones with the 3 wires are here is the story when i bought my bike i raced it once rod it on the street when i picked it up and man was i impressed it had a sorta hacked wiring harness on it and the guy said he maid his own to get ride of the restrictions grant you im in the US so im like ok well when i did all the work to the bike i was like this things looks to good to have the hacked up harness on it so i changed it well when i changed it i put a b4 harness on it from a newer model it started to my suprize 3 years of racing it later and my buddy telling me man your bike isnt as fast as it was well changing cams milling stuff and it seem to get to speed a bit faster but when it hit like 10000 rpm it seem to quit pulling as hard and just go flat it was hard to tell my self that my bike was restricted but with all the things that i through at my bike and money but comes to be it was i was betting my own self on the track racing a restricted bike with darrens (strips) help and a bunch of hours later of internet chatting i swapped the harness and whalaa! not restiction the harness with the 3 wires is vodoo! if a mmax cures it or a posh that is the way to go but for me i had no axcess to these things so i switched the harness. Man ill tell you what i could get off the bike and run beside it after it hit 10,000 was getting a great drive great coner speed and then boom peeps be passing me damn near pulled my hair out. but tiss all good now the b4 suffers from the same ordeal certain years.
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 08:39:43
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Thanks for the reply not quite sure what you mean by:
"if a mmax cures it or a posh that is the way to go"
How can I remove the restriction, I dont mind butchering the harness up if that is what is needed. As we are talking about speed, what is the light on the instrument panel that flashes on sometime, it says speed above it?
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 23:09:16
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gsxr400 racer you are correct my GK73a is restricted in both 5th and 6th. This may not be the case on all GK73a.I have looked at 3 neutral sensors that I have in my garage and they are all the restricted model. 1st to 4th resistance measures 1.5Kohm 5th is 9.12kohm and 6th is O ohm. neutral also measures 0 ohms.
Now the fix!! I carefully scrapped the sealant any from the circuit board on the sensor. Run cut the resistor closest to the green/yellow wire out. then created a link from the 4th pin to the 5th then to the 6th. This way all pins now have a resistance of 1.5 Kohms. Then back filled the sensor with resin to seal it up.
Have not road tested it yet but it has got to work as it does on the bench.
Gavin
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 23:17:44
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That sounds about right your a flippen genious!!! the mmax i think would plug in some were and be doing the same thing wish you would have taken pictures Heres a little not i fixed mine by changing the whole harness i had freshened up my motor before the 442 kit went in was supposed to race forgot i cut the wires at the neutral switch didnt have spark for like 2-3 months me and stripes figured it out! I have a video of me warming the bike up for the first time after i finally fixed the electrical problem
cheers and congrates.
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
youroddsox
Familiar Member
403 Posts
Posted - 05/12/2006 : 23:45:28
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Definitely the nice and tidy way of doing it. For some odd reason mine doesn't seem to be restricted even with the de-restrictor out. Probably down to the fact i have had to resoldermy cdi so many times!
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www.soxracing.s5.com Taking on the world with a GSX-R400 gk76a!!!
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 02:30:16
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Ok so you say well power runs on a dyno would be done in 4 th gear not restricted in forth gear gonna make the power that it would anyways when you notice it is 5 th when coming out of a corner good in 4th then shift to 5th just feels like you hit a wall same with 6th me i tried to over ride it and just balmed it on my riding ability its hard to notice if you ride it all the time. cause you get used to it! any time your cdi is hooked to your transmission that is bad news!
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 12:40:30
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Here is the picture of the modded neutral switch, the epoxy is clear I used so you can just see though it. Resistor 1 creates the 1.5 Kohm for gears 1st to 4th, leave this alone. Resistor 2 highlighted by the red line needs cutting out, I just used some snips. Then you need to create the link wires highlighted by the yellow lines. The one that goes from 4th to 5th needs a slight bend so it does not contact the small pin between them.
your switch should now give a reading of 1.5 Kohm on all pins other than the neutral pin. I then resolder the wires to make sure they had a good/ strong connection and then filled it with glue.
The CDI will now not be able to tell when you are in 5th and 6th. Now until I road test it I can not say if there is a limiter (some say there is some say there is not) or if this switch drives the "SPEED" light on the instrument panel. but either way the CDI will not be able to tell. I personnelly think it is a limiter, as I can not see how to pass Japanese regulations on the GK71, they had to fit limiter and of the GK76 they had to fit a limiter. But on the gk73 they were aloud to get away with a light on instrument panel. Who is going to take any notice of the light anyway. Do all other Japanese 400 have limiters.
img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p52a5b5f98545a5f7b596d2b7e1919e6b/ebbca8d0.jpg[/img
stripes1976
Senior Member
United Kingdom
2520 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 20:46:16
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there is another way without touching the neutral switch! But i haven't been about much to reply!
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www.gsxr400.com
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 22:03:10
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I knew there would be an easier way, are you going to let us in on the secret?? What is your opinion on the limiter of GK73A, myth or fiction. do all the GK73 have 3 wires on the small plug.
youroddsox
Familiar Member
403 Posts
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 23:48:25
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Jay, mine hits 16k in 5th and 6th without the de-restrictor so it definitely ain't got a restriction on it. Probably buggered that part of the chip!
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www.soxracing.s5.com Taking on the world with a GSX-R400 gk76a!!!
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 07/12/2006 : 02:33:44
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they do go that high but they seem to not build anymore power even shows on a dyno but i cant find my old charts
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
Gavhowe
New Member
28 Posts
Posted - 07/12/2006 : 12:24:20
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Have all GK73A got the 3 wires to the plug, as this would explain why some people dont think there is a limiter and others do.
youroddsox
Familiar Member
403 Posts
Posted - 07/12/2006 : 18:19:55
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I only rev it that high on one track and that is in 6th gear flat. Only usually developes decent power to about the redline. Do you reckon an ECU that only goes to 15k would be enough or with a better ignition map can higher power figures behond this be acheived?
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www.soxracing.s5.com Taking on the world with a GSX-R400 gk76a!!!
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 01:09:03
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quote:
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Originally posted by Gavhowe
Have all GK73A got the 3 wires to the plug, as this would explain why some people dont think there is a limiter and others do.
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Some earlyier bandits dont i think earlyier gk73 didnt later did and stripes would have to answer if the others were limited!
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
gsxr400 racer
Senior Member
USA
1218 Posts
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 01:10:07
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better ignition map can higher power figures behond this be acheived" this one works for me
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Supplier of the cheapest 442cc big bore piston kit for gsxr400 73,76, bandit 400, and other suzuki's.
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my B4 doesnt rev beyond 13k in any of the gears. it tops in 6th gear at 12k rev at a calibrated 172km/h (or about 200+km/h on the standard speedo-meter)
would this mean my B4 is restricted? its the USA-model of 1990
ps. my neutral light doesnt work anymore (since a few months) but the B4 still works flawless (it just wont start when in neutral and the side-stand is out)
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Strange.. what about revving it up in neutral, can you reach higher than 13k?
Did you check if you have the 3 pin connector on your CDI? there are 2 connectors on your CDI, look at the smallest one.
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i never tried revying up to 13k in neutral, but i doubt my B4 would go beyond it anyway
it only has 2 wires as you can see here
(http://show.imagehosting.us/show/1808661/0/nouser_1808/T0_-1_1808661.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.us/index.php?action=show&ident=1808661)
does this mean my B4 is restricted?
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Mine revs to 14500 in any gear except 6th, then hits the limiter. In 6th gear I've got it to about 14200 which is almost 215 km/h.
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maybe someone with the 2 wire version could test the resistance of there nuey=tral indicator and some more with three wires could too!
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Ok i up for that i have a 3 wire version what do have to do! i own a multi meter, so give us an idea on what to do and i'll post results
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it was a few post up so i copied it for you! :monkeymoon:
"Here is the picture of the modded neutral switch, the epoxy is clear I used so you can just see though it. Resistor 1 creates the 1.5 Kohm for gears 1st to 4th, leave this alone. Resistor 2 highlighted by the red line needs cutting out, I just used some snips. Then you need to create the link wires highlighted by the yellow lines. The one that goes from 4th to 5th needs a slight bend so it does not contact the small pin between them.
your switch should now give a reading of 1.5 Kohm on all pins other than the neutral pin. I then resolder the wires to make sure they had a good/ strong connection and then filled it with glue.
The CDI will now not be able to tell when you are in 5th and 6th. Now until I road test it I can not say if there is a limiter (some say there is some say there is not) or if this switch drives the "SPEED" light on the instrument panel. but either way the CDI will not be able to tell. I personnelly think it is a limiter, as I can not see how to pass Japanese regulations on the GK71, they had to fit limiter and of the GK76 they had to fit a limiter. But on the gk73 they were aloud to get away with a light on instrument panel. Who is going to take any notice of the light anyway. Do all other Japanese 400 have limiters.
img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid220/p52a5b5f98545a5f7b596d2b7e1919e6b/ebbca8d0.jpg[/img
"
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today i tested how high my B4 would rev....
and i found out it is idd able to rev to 15k, however the power doesnt gain anymore above 12,5k which is why i use to switch gears at that number. and i havent got above 13k in 2 years :motorsmile:
but in 5th and 6th it wouldn't go that far (also there were strong winds which didnt help)
so i guess it's restriced, like posted above.
and i also guess it doesnt gain more power above 12,5k because the carbs are a bit lean. and high rpm's like a rich mixture because that burns faster.
could someone explain in a easy to understand way how to de-restrict it?
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i don't think yours is restricted actually, i'm guessing you should sync the carbs firstly.. see if this helps a bit.
If it doesn't then it should be the carb mixture, much fussing about :sad:
the 2 wire version is supposed to be the unrestricted, i have this one and i can reach in higher rpm's but just like you say there ain't much power above 12k.
That said, of course in each higher gear you have less torque but a higher top speed, so it's kind of to be expected that you can't reach as high in rpm's as in the lower gears... unless you tweaked your bike like some here :wink:
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If you shift at 13500 you will always be at 10000 RPM or more in the next gear. When shifting from 5th gear to 6th gear you will be at 12500 :stickpoke:
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i don't think yours is restricted actually, i'm guessing you should sync the carbs firstly.. see if this helps a bit.
If it doesn't then it should be the carb mixture, much fussing about :sad:
it was synced about 2000 km's ago :wink: didnt make much difference then, because it was synched about 5000 km before that :banana:
and synching should only help at the lower rpm range.
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This isnt because of the carbs this is due to the extra wire conected to the cdi and the neutral switch changing the amps or ohms that run threw it! Any time your cdi is conected to your gear indicator this is a bad thing meaning that something about your bike may get better once the restriction is taken off! there is no reason thet the bike pulls hard all the way through the rev range up to 15 or 155 in 1st threw4th then 5th and 6th the bike falls on it face bettre yet find a buddy with a 2 wire one and ride that!
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i don't think yours is restricted actually, i'm guessing you should sync the carbs firstly.. see if this helps a bit.
If it doesn't then it should be the carb mixture, much fussing about :sad:
the 2 wire version is supposed to be the unrestricted, i have this one and i can reach in higher rpm's but just like you say there ain't much power above 12k.
That said, of course in each higher gear you have less torque but a higher top speed, so it's kind of to be expected that you can't reach as high in rpm's as in the lower gears... unless you tweaked your bike like some here :wink:
dude if you rode a 3 wire compared to yours you would be like what the hell just happen and start smaking the side of your bike like a horse saying come on geteup!
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huh! well maybe then i have a restricted too :?:
Sigh, perhaps i can check this out next week, this week i've got virtually no time to spare
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This isnt because of the carbs this is due to the extra wire conected to the cdi and the neutral switch changing the amps or ohms that run threw it!
the talk about the carbs was due to the fact that our bikes dont have more powergain beyond 13k.
which (as i presume) is (in my case) because the carbs are lean
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This isnt because of the carbs this is due to the extra wire conected to the cdi and the neutral switch changing the amps or ohms that run threw it!
the talk about the carbs was due to the fact that our bikes dont have more powergain beyond 13k.
which (as i presume) is (in my case) because the carbs are lean
what size mains are you running and what is the state of tune of your bike ( pipe jet kit hole in the air box ect...)
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mine should be bone stock, i only raised the clip one place.
Ehh, the muffer's as good as empty, there's a rattling sound :roll: i guess i burned most of it out, but i like the sound now. Kinda "raw" :grin:
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mine should be bone stock, i only raised the clip one place.
Ehh, the muffer's as good as empty, there's a rattling sound :roll: i guess i burned most of it out, but i like the sound now. Kinda "raw" :grin:
theres a post on here about were the 4 into one conects that vibrates and cracks in side there some one cut theres open and re welded the divider, then there is a older post from years ago about a racer not me who cut his open did dyno research and removed the fin said it was a resriction and showed a signifcant hp gain!! Happy searching.
Rob, Do you remember any of those it been quit a while lol!
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ehh, yeah ...i forgot to say, i disinctly get the feeling it's more powerful, but i don't have figures to show for it :sad:
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*edit* deleted reply to spam
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the talk about the carbs was due to the fact that our bikes dont have more powergain beyond 13k.
which (as i presume) is (in my case) because the carbs are lean
what size mains are you running and what is the state of tune of your bike ( pipe jet kit hole in the air box ect...)
my B4 is pretty standard exept it has different air filters (four of these (http://www.avdw32.dsl.pipex.com/images/air%20filter%20k&n.jpg) but not K&N)
last week i checked my spark plugs and they were way to white.
so i opened the carbs and removed the 110 jets and replaced them with 130 jets (because i still had those)
now it is to rich (i will buy some 120 jets after x-mas) but it has a bit more from 6k to 14k revs, atleast thats how it feels...
in 6th the max rev hasnt gone up
also i noticed my needles dont have different settings, so i cant raise them. but i saw there were alreaddy small plastic thingies beneath them to raise them about 2-3mm
i also couldnt find a carb code on it (10D1 or 102) which is also strange
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buy a jet kit!! www.factorypro.com
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i wont :stickpoke:
1st of all i dont have the money for it.
2nd if i did, i would prefer to spend it on other things.
3rd i like trying it myself (i study automotive engineering at school (hbo bachelor (http://www.htsautotechniek.nl/), final year), so i should know what im doing) :grin:
4rd it doesnt run bad, just not as good as some others
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Its the flow that the new needle has is why you want one
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dont you have some extra needles your not using?? :wink:
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what do you use pounds or euros? pounds is 1.9% right now so i could get you a new jet kit for half the price LOL :beers:
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Hi gues. I made a decition to rebuild my CDI(just changing capacitors really) and when was taking off the CDI noteced that i have only 2 wires on a small plug and my bike suposed to be 1994. A while ago i came to conclucion that its a 1992 model ( N ), but still not 100% sure.
Just thought i share it.
Getting my carbs rebuild ( Got the kit from Jay) and servicing it too.
Cheers
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just wondered if anyone messed with the neutral switch to try to derestrict there 3 wire b4 yet :?:
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http://www.suzukicycles.org/GSX-R-series/GSX-R400.shtml theres the proof of when the restriction came in. Going to investigate this on my bandit today.
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Today i have tried a different method. I cut the wire from the CDI to the neutral switch and soldered in a 1.6k resistor to see if that made it go any better but it didnt. I believe the lack of power is due to new cams fitted to the post 93 bikes.
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I have a '94 engine in my Bandit, used to have a '92 engine. Swapped the starter clutches so it would work with my '92 CDI. However I still have the slow cams in it and a very restricting end can on it. Still revs up to 14000 in 6th gear.
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My bike will still rev there it just takes a while.
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So your saying the neutral mod didnt work? Anyways i have a derestriction box for the 3 wire and just aquired one for a 89-91 bandit with the 2 wires they sell these things because there is a restriction and its electrical not cam related but beleive what you want till you ride a derestricted one you dont know and think things are fine. To each his own
cheers