Tracking the Bandit

[96gti8v]

Bought a 400 for my girl to ride with me, now she doesnt want to ride, so im keeping the bandit this time around and going to turn it into a track bike (Id rather not take my sv1000 to the track). The bandit will be enough power to have fun with at the track, and its so darn light and flickable it will be perfect. Ive heard there are things one must do first to make the bandit a trackable bike (raising rear suspension?).

Heres what I would like to do, and would appreciate any links or insight or direction on where to go:
1) Front suspension- Im thinking gsxr front end so its fully adjustable, plus bigger brakes and wheel
2) Rear suspension- gsxr shock swap, zx10 swap?
3) Larger rear wheel and tire (if possible, if not it doesnt matter, but im thinking between 160 and 180 rear)
4) Rearsets- My feet are low, need them higher to drag knee
5) Any thing else that im forgetting

I appreciate any and all help, the bike will be getting stripped down and built over the course of the winter, and hopefully ill be ripping around Pocono Raceway next spring.

[tomacGTi]

Since it's a boring, cold, rainy day here and I'm off, I'll give you my .02$. Rob will probably chime in as well since he's from the area (SEPA) as well. Do some searching for what you're interested in as the board is rich in info. Here's some to get you feet wet:

-If you have the money/time for a front end swap, go for it. If not emulators are the way to go. That and the right weight springs and oil.

-The stock front brake will work fine. Just use better pads and a braided line. I upgraded to a 4 pot GSXR caliper up front using an SV adapter with the OEM master and was fine all day long at Lightning in July. If you do the USD, then you're getting better brakes anyway.

-I recommend raising the rear a slight bit with shorter bones as well as the later GSXR rear shocks. The stock pegs will drag unless otherwise and a USD setup I think is shorter so you'll end up putting the bike further on it's nose and bringing the pegs even closer.

I modified an offset set of pegs made for GSXRs and SV's from Yoyodyne so I'm a little bit higher/further back and I can still drag a toe in deeper cambered corners. Fixed pegs are quite nice though but I'm scared shitless to contact hard parts now (lever the back tire up).

Rearsets you can get from Raask or Coerce. I would work on technique and body position before blaming the stock footpegs. Plenty of us who have done trackdays on the B4 were fine with just aftermarket footpegs and have the scuffed pucks to prove it.

-You will be spending a ton of money on tires. Thankfully the little bike isn't so bad on them. I just found out you can get BT003's in the stock sizes, which are all the grip you will need. The 016's are good for mixed street/track but the edges will overheat and get squirmy at the track.

The stock sizes are fine. They're what give the bike it's agility so don't try to lever something bigger onto the stock rims. As long as folks keep making 110s and 150s, that's what I'll use anyway

-Get some sliders and find some way to protect the cases. If you go down, your day will be over. I can assure you no one in the paddock will have B4 spares.

-Closing speeds on the straights on a "proper" track will be your downfall. I thought it was bad at Pocono but 1k bikes coming down from 160 into the same corner were a bit daunting at NJMP.

There is only so much you can wring the little bike's neck and after some carb/intake/exhaust work I'm managing to hit closer to 120-125 indicated now versus the steaming 110-115 from July. Even then, you're at a modern bike's mercy so be wary of your 6 and keep the cornerspeed up.

-You will put up a good fight in the corners if you did your homework on suspension and brakes. I know I was giving just about everyone fits because the cornerspeeds you can achieve with the little bike are retarded. Only the guys running dedicated track bikes with slicks were going around.

Do some research and take a riding school if you can. It will help the learning curve tenfold. I'll tell you this, the track is very, very addicting. I just wished I had more money to do it as well as time.



Pocono last year



Lightning this year

[96gti8v]

Beautiful thanks for the info. Im going to keep researching mnore into it since im new to the bandits (ive been rocking some type of sv since i started riding). Good to know about the front brakes, that was one of my biggest concerns. Im going to keep the running gear stock, since a 150 tire is cheaper than a 160 or 180 anyway, plus i love the feel of how nimble the bike is compared to my bulky 1k.

Does anyone make a crash cage for the 400? Or are there any DIY's out there from someone who did? Im good with welding, so it should be no problem. I hear you about the case covers, i had to replace the left side after the PO downed it and shattered the hell out of it. PITA if you ask me.

I already have a k4 gsxr 1k shock sitting at home. I was going to throw it on my sv650, but upgraded to an sv1k so i never ended up using it. Would this fit in the 400 even if it required a bit of modding? Plus, where can I get some shorter doggys that would suffice for lifting the rear?

[Red01]

Plus, where can I get some shorter doggys that would suffice for lifting the rear?

Most just make them since they are simple pieces easily fabbed from some flat stock if you have a drill and a saw... if you want them to look prettier, fancier metal working tools can be employed, but if you're after function more than form, the basics will get the job done. 

Pretty sure the formula for tail height change is similar to the other Bandits and that's 10mm change in distance between the holes will be about 1" of tail altitude adjustment.  Closer raises, further apart lowers.

[PitterB4]

Pocono East was made for the little bandit.  With riders of similar skill on bigger bikes, you'll get smoked on the back straight (superspeedway section) and frustrate the hell out of them everywhere else.  And if you can master the entrance to the back straight, it's not that bad...  I would actually have fun blowing by people at the beginning of the straight and then trying to make it stick..  A modern 1k or 750 is still gonna win that battle. 

Brakes - like Randy said, good pads and a braided line are fine.

Suspension - with my 2G B12 shock, I never scraped anything.  There are tons of posts here about possible shock swaps.  If you have the stocker, you'd be better off getting a newer, more sophisticated unit that also raised the rear than just slapping shorter bones on the worn out stocker. 

[Chris H]

About an inch rise at the rear is good and remember some of the shocks gave this from a straight swop. If you can ever get a gsxr400 gk73A swingarm (take a look at Grayolas B4) they shorten the rear about an inch and have a very possitive affect on the B4, ive got a braced SP one on my B4 and with the rear raised you can get away with murder in the corners and USA B4's have riser bars so going to the jap style clipons will also help and will push your knee out also.

[tomacGTi]

Don't worry about the bones. I lifted the rear of the bike to compensate for the slower turn-in of the Bridgestones versus Michelin PP's. You'll figure this out when you dial in your suspension.

The K4 shock will be too long. IIRC your target length should be in the 320mm range and I think the k4 is in the 329mm range, stock is 305. I know the rear end of my bike is up between 1.5 and 2".

I can't remember the year but it was a newer GSXR rear that replaced my gsxr1100 shock and it had a level reservoir, not the one kicked up. You will still have to relocate the overflow to run it.

I have a spare top triple with the bolt on factory clips but the problem is you have to drop the forks at least an inch to get enough overlap (US bike). You Brits got lucky with the longer legs and dual discs....

[PitterB4]

For clips, you can go aftermarket like Woodcraft or Pro Tek and just go under the top trip.  I rode like that most of the time I had the B4.  I also had Suburban Machinery bars made for the SV for a while -emulate the position of over-the-trip clips.  IIRC, I actually sold those to Randy.   

[Garyola]

Bought a 400 for my girl to ride with me, now she doesnt want to ride, so im keeping the bandit this time around and going to turn it into a track bike (Id rather not take my sv1000 to the track). The bandit will be enough power to have fun with at the track, and its so darn light and flickable it will be perfect. Ive heard there are things one must do first to make the bandit a trackable bike (raising rear suspension?).

Heres what I would like to do, and would appreciate any links or insight or direction on where to go:
1) Front suspension- Im thinking gsxr front end so its fully adjustable, plus bigger brakes and wheel
2) Rear suspension- gsxr shock swap, zx10 swap?
3) Larger rear wheel and tire (if possible, if not it doesnt matter, but im thinking between 160 and 180 rear)
4) Rearsets- My feet are low, need them higher to drag knee
5) Any thing else that im forgetting

I appreciate any and all help, the bike will be getting stripped down and built over the course of the winter, and hopefully ill be ripping around Pocono Raceway next spring.

I used the 89 GSXR750 front end. It fits right in and it will give you dual disks and a fully adjustable fork and a 120 tire.

Like Chris has suggested, get the GSXR400 swing arm. You can make others fit but why? The GSXR swingarm fits right up and it's lighter and take and inch off the wheel base. Get a good shock that you can adjust the ride height. You don't really need to come up that much at the shock to make a huge difference. 3/8th of and inch at the shock will give you a good height if your suspension is setup properly.

To put a bigger rear wheel on works, but . . . I don't think trying to get a 180 on is practical. I put an SV rim on and it works well but you have to make new spacers and mill some off the cush drive to centre the wheel. Then you can run 155 or 165 slicks or 160 DOT racer tires. You will never take those tire to their limit on a B4 and so you can push them all you want.

Have fun

G

[gixxerjasen]

Just curious for those giving the newer bikes fits....first of all, that's gotta be fun!

But I wonder, what is the actual advantage that the B4 has over the newer bikes?  Dry weight seems to be about the same as a modern 600 but with less power.  Having ridden a Suzuki TLR, a GSX-R600 and a DRZSM at the track, I can say that lighter is definitely better, but if you try to run the same weight with less power and older suspension, you will get eaten up by a rider of the same skill.  I haven't had the B4 on the track, but I'd be interested to know from those that have and can compare as to where the advantage of tracking the B4 would be.

Either that....or did all those other riders just suck?     Actually, I found I could best a lot of folks at the track by simply working on braking.  Most folks can wring the throttle and get semi-good at cornering, but suck on the brakes.  I bested a lot of 1K's by getting good corner exit speed, being able to keep them in sight and then outbraking them because they are scared to pull on the lever.   

[Garyola]

Just curious for those giving the newer bikes fits....first of all, that's gotta be fun!

But I wonder, what is the actual advantage that the B4 has over the newer bikes?  Dry weight seems to be about the same as a modern 600 but with less power.  Having ridden a Suzuki TLR, a GSX-R600 and a DRZSM at the track, I can say that lighter is definitely better, but if you try to run the same weight with less power and older suspension, you will get eaten up by a rider of the same skill.  I haven't had the B4 on the track, but I'd be interested to know from those that have and can compare as to where the advantage of tracking the B4 would be.

Either that....or did all those other riders just suck?     Actually, I found I could best a lot of folks at the track by simply working on braking.  Most folks can wring the throttle and get semi-good at cornering, but suck on the brakes.  I bested a lot of 1K's by getting good corner exit speed, being able to keep them in sight and then outbraking them because they are scared to pull on the lever.   

The B4 on the track against a newer 600 with riders of equal skill will get eaten alive. Unless the 600 is a cruiser. The B4 is just too slow all around compared to a newer 600. A b4 kitted out on a good day makes 60 - 65 hp. A 600 out off the showroom floor makes over a 110 hp and can put the kind of power down that the B4 can only dream of.

If a B4 is getting around a 600 . . . yes the 600 rider is either heading into the pits, out of gas or the rider sucks.

G

[PitterB4]

Just curious for those giving the newer bikes fits....first of all, that's gotta be fun!

But I wonder, what is the actual advantage that the B4 has over the newer bikes?  Dry weight seems to be about the same as a modern 600 but with less power.  Having ridden a Suzuki TLR, a GSX-R600 and a DRZSM at the track, I can say that lighter is definitely better, but if you try to run the same weight with less power and older suspension, you will get eaten up by a rider of the same skill.  I haven't had the B4 on the track, but I'd be interested to know from those that have and can compare as to where the advantage of tracking the B4 would be.

Either that....or did all those other riders just suck?     Actually, I found I could best a lot of folks at the track by simply working on braking.  Most folks can wring the throttle and get semi-good at cornering, but suck on the brakes.  I bested a lot of 1K's by getting good corner exit speed, being able to keep them in sight and then outbraking them because they are scared to pull on the lever.   

The B4 on the track against a newer 600 with riders of equal skill will get eaten alive. Unless the 600 is a cruiser. The B4 is just too slow all around compared to a newer 600. A b4 kitted out on a good day makes 60 - 65 hp. A 600 out off the showroom floor makes over a 110 hp and can put the kind of power down that the B4 can only dream of.

If a B4 is getting around a 600 . . . yes the 600 rider is either heading into the pits, out of gas or the rider sucks.

G

Yeah, my post about "beginner" track day guys 3 years ago on a TIGHT track.  I can't really speak too much to the other riders' skill but when I was on Pocono East in the NESBA Beginner (diverse mix of bikes - mostly stock, late model 600 sportbikes) class in 06 against the rest of the group, I was more than competitive on the B4.  That same year on bigger tracks like Beaverun and especially Summit Main, I was obviously struggling in the straights and "bigger" sections.  I was also on a pretty heavily modded B4....  YMMV

[tomacGTi]

My experiences have been with Absolute in the I group which is comparable to the middle range of the B group for Nesba. I wouldn't dare bring it into I with Nesba.

Everything that Gary and Rob said is correct: an equally well-ridden 600 or even an SV will beat up and have their way with the little bike 90% of the time. A well-modified (suspension/brakes/properly tuned) 400 will put up a fight, but sections where you can use the HP, there is no contest. Weight isn't as much of a factor anymore as the Bandit's 412lb wet weight is now as much as most 600s or even the new CBR 1k.

My last trackday was a big eye-opener. It was at Lightning at NJMP and had fast, sweeping turns and a 150+ straight for the bigger bikes. I was able to keep up in the corners but once you could open it up, I just got out of the way. I broke the cardinal rule at the end of the straight and looked over my shoulder so that I wouldn't superchop someone closing from a much higher speed (more for personal preservation than anything else).

My first trackday at Pocono was a slight bit different: much tighter where supermotos ruled the roost and the high-speed section of the tri-oval was the only place where you went above 50. You could better set up people for a pass here as HP only came into play in one section of the track.

Regardless of all of this, enjoy your track day and work on learning what the bike can and cannot do. You will look at riding on the street in an entirely different light. I sure do wish there were lower HP track days but as long as there are 600s, that'll never happen.

[PitterB4]

Yeah - my comments of it being competitive were track-specific.  Pocono East - lots of fun and very competitive when I was there as a mid to upper NESBA B rider (Note: that was over 3 years ago and later model bikes have obviously gotten better).  Summit Main - I struggled (still fun, tho!).  On Summit Jefferson, I imagine it would be awesome.  I knew a guy that rode there as a NESBA I control rider.  Loved it!

[albertinhouston]

   If I read correctly the gsxr 400 swinger will shorten the wheel base. If thats all you hoping to accomplish put a gs 500 swinger on it. a heck of allot cheaper and PLENTY of then around. it's a bolt in swap.  you can still run the bandit rim.
    any gxsr 88-95 will bolt right in. I have 95 6 pot on mine. I've a 92 750 ( If I remember the 92 has a problem with the bump stops on the lower tripple tree. I has to mod them. but easy to do). just took off a 91 1100. The 1100 are taller. MIGHT be something to think about if you are worried about dragging things. but it seems to be bulkier than the other gsxr stuff.  also consider you are adding plenty of weight to the bike. I have wanted to take a disc and caliper off to see how it feels that way. I'm sure its still better than the stock brakes.   

Lets not get ahead of him..... get track time before you start worring about beating bigger bikes.