Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Johnny from Chicago on July 15, 2011, 12:51:55 AM
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I followed the instructions to the letter and it idled OK but had a lean spot at 4k in driveway. So bad it would stall. After revving it for a few mins it picked up a miss at idle and stalled. Runs for crap now and I have no idea what I did wrong. I did not lose the tiny O rings. and the shims are all the same(went with 4 to start) went with 110 jets and 17.5 pilots with screws 3.75 out like he says to start. Now I can't ride in tomorrow, the day of the California Carmaggeddon!
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First thing I would try is tape over the 1.5" hole(You did cut the hole in the top of the airbox right?) or at least half of it to see if that helps. If the bike runs better then you are lean. I have a hole shot kit at 4 turns out and 5 shims(110 mains) and had to reduce the hole to 1 1/4" and it's still a bit lean up top, will be installing the 112.5's next week. I would also put 5 shims on there for sure. You are closer than I am to sea level so you will need to richen it up a bit. Try 4 turns out and 5 shims and see if that helps.
What do the plugs look like? You should have one full turn of light color on the base ring of the plug. Thats where the ground strap is welded to the plug. Also look at the porcelin. Right down inside of the plug where the porcelin meets the body you should have 2-3 mm up the porcelin of colour, if it is bone white you are lean. If the colour is black and goes up farther than a few mm's you are too rich. I'm guessing you are too lean.
Also make sure the float height is set to 13mm. This is EXTREMELY important! I had my jet kit installed by a shop(big mistake)and had all sorts of problems. After taking off the carbs to look myself the floats were all over hell's half acre. One was 11.5mm seeping fuel and another was 15mm starving that cylinder of fuel. After setting them to 13mm all was good.
Just because someone is an "expert" doesn't mean they will do a good job. My guess is he popped the jets in there and hoped for the best. To be sure he used the right jets, I would take off number 4 cylinders float bowl which can be done without pulling the carbs and either unscrew the jets or use a hand mirror to read what's been installed.
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I guess I wasnt clear. I'm the 20 year car mechanic. I've rebuilt so many carbs over the years I thought this would be no different. The bike was running with the stock jets and this pipe before I took it apart and I know that was too lean. So I dont think lean would cause the increased problem after jumping up 10 jet sizes. It dropped a cylinder at idle now like it's rich.
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Sounds like you did the kit install properly - although I think baseline is 5 shims.
Before you tear things fully apart to check float height (very good idea) I'd double check all hose routings and make sure you don't have a vacuum leak somewhere. Double check the nipple caps on carbs 1 thru 3 and also check the fuel hose routing.
I'm guessing your working on a Gen 2 Bandit 1200 - if not you might post up your bike specs. Good luck and let us know what you find.
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Its a 2005 sz. I am wondering now about the 25mm that you're supposed to trim off the springs. Was he talking about 25mm of a coil like when you lower suspension by cutting off 1/2 of a coil turn, or 25mm of total length. (I did total length). Also, the 3rd carb has a nipple on the float bowl and I cant find anything that goes to it. I think it was connected to something when I took it off but cant remember for sure. I think this thing is too rich and fouled a plug. I need to pull them this weekend. I got disgusted with it last night and closed the door and poured a drink. I went with 4 shims to keep it a little more economical at cruise. I didnt want to take it apart again if it was too rich.(not sure how much diff each shim makes) Thanks for the quick responses. I'll try some stuff then report back. If no luck, I'll be calling Dale on Monday.
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No you trim the 25mm off what was there already. I just measured 25mm from one end and snipped with some wirecutters. This is so that the slides are a little quicker opening up when the throttle is cracked open. However even with the stock springs in there you shouldn't have that much of a hole at higher rpm. Did you cut the 1.5" hole in the top of the airbox lid? Maybe covering up the hole when the bike is colder to see if it helps. WHen the bike is warm it will be super rich but when colder it will be closer to what it should be. If it runs better with the hole covered up then you are too lean. If it runs worse you are too rich. Actually 1 shim does make a quite a bit of difference at least on my bike. I've tried 4 shims too and I lost quite a bit of roll on power with that tiny half mm shim. But even without the shim it should still be ok. Try covering up the hole, or some of the hole with masking tape and see how she goes from there. I have a 2005 myself.
However, If you trimmed the springs to 25mm overall length that is your problem. THe slides will dump fuel quicker than the bike will handle it. Fortunately slide springs are cheap. Pull a plug to verify. Even at idle vaccuum you will have the slides lifting slightly dumping fuel in the carbs. I can't remember off hand but I think the the slide springs are around 100mm or so after trimming 25mm or about a 1/4 they should end up at 75mm. If you trimmed them down to 25mm overall(wow) that would be your problem. Do you have the cut bits(longer spring bits) kicking around? You could put the longer spring bits(75mm or whatever) in which should be the right length and see if that cures your problem. I think you may have used the cuttings(25mm) in the slides instead of the longer trimmed spring(75mm). If your plugs are black then you definitely will know. When you crack the throttle do you get alot of black smoke?
If not you can order new carb springs for about $15 I think it was when I lost one.
The nipples on the float bowls are drainage nipples they aren't supposed to be attached to anything. Don't sweat it.
If the super short cuttings are the problem and it works fine after putting in the longer springs, take the bike on whatever highway is left in California for a good long run to get rid of any coke deposits in the engine. Lots of high rpm should clean out most of the coking.
NOTE: My measurements of 100mm is just a guess but it should be close to what a non cut spring is(about 6 inches). It's just to demonstrate that you need to use the longer bit not the shorter bit in the slides. If I get time today I'll measure one of my slide springs overall length as I've already trimmed them.
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Spring cutting 101.....
... And the nipple caps refered to are vacuum inlets. Carb #4 will have a hose connected to it that goes to the pair valve and petcock vacuum connection.
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I think he said the float bowls txbandit. Let's ask. Do you mean the nipples at the bottom of the carb floatbowls with a screw above it? Or the nipples on top near the slide cap covers? If you loosen the screw on the bottom floatbowl nipples you should see some fuel dribble out. THe ones on the top are as txbandit says are vacuum lines for synching and #4 is for the PAIR/fuel petcock. I'm assuming since the bike is running it has been connected as the floats without getting any fuel would only run a minute or two before running out of gas. It seems your like 90% there it just something got screwy on the last little bit. I'd check those slide springs as that would do it.
My 112.5 mains came in so if I put them in this weekend I'll probably have to lower the needles at some point and I'll get you an exact length of what I have so you can compare. If you have the other bits of the spring that you cut they will be the right length so don't sweat it just put the longer lengths in and you should be good. I'm sorry I just don't have the instructions for the jet kit anymore so I can't say for sure without taking my carb caps off.
Worse case scenario, you could buy new slide springs and NOT cut them and pop them in there. Some guys on this board have done this with a holeshot kit on purpose to crispen up the throttle down low, though I think you lose a little mid-range.
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Yep, I definately cut off 25mm and installed the longer spring portion. I'm wondering if the slides are opening too much too soon and causing the dead spot. The nipple I was talking about is the one on carb 3 on the bowl. I thought it was just open and not connected to anything. It must be pig rich because it ran OK when it was stock and too lean. I'm gonna pull the plugs then recheck the tiny "o" rings and the diaphragms in the top. If I find nothing wrong I'll set it back to stock and see if it clears up. If so I'll know it's not my install work but the settings. Also, I went beyond the 2" hole. I saw on Dales site how he cut out the whole airbox lid except for the retaining portion, so I cut out the top half of the lid where you're supposed to make the 2" hole. I'll try taping that up as well.
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Thats probably the problem. It's supposed to be a 1.5" hole on a stage 1. THe picture on Dales site is a different kit in which he gives you a K&N and a modified airbox lid. Is this the kit you bought?(Different kit, I doubt it due to your main jet size) Or did you buy the one we all have which is the first model with the stock airfilter, 1.5" hole cut into the lid? What do the plugs look like? Are they dark and sooty? White and clean? Can the bike drive at all? Maybe taking it for a 20 min drive will at least mark the plugs up enough to read them.
If you cut the box as per the site picture on Dales site you will be super super lean, no wonder you would have a huge hole at 4k rpm. I'm surprised it would even rev up that high with the airbox that open with only 110 jets in there. Pull the spark plugs and see what they are like. I would guess that the airbox is so open there isn't enough fuel getting in there.
Here is a bad ascii diagram of what the airbox should look like with your kit.
---------------------- <----Top of airbox lid
I _ I
I / \ <---- I -------------1.5" hole cut in the top
I \ / I
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\ /
I _ I
I / \ <--- I ----------------- Factory snorkel left IN(do not remove)
I \ / I
-------------------
Anything larger is going to lean the hell out of the bike. The picture on Dales site is for a different kit altogether. I would guess with that kit the mains would probably be in the 117.5 or 120 range to function correctly. If you are going to pop the stock jets in and plug up all the holes that would be a good time to check the float height. Make sure it's 13mm. In fact before you pop the stockers in there check the float height. Maybe it was like mine which were way too low creating rich loadup at idle. Once set to 13mm all was good.
Remember I'm actually set richer than you and I'm still a little lean up top and I only have a 1 1/4" inch hole in addition to the factory snorkel. You have over double the size! I'm suprised the bike runs at all with that amount of air going in there.
If the airbox lid is totally screwed don't sweat it I think it's like $40 at www.bikebandit.com but remember to follow the instructions for the kit you have. If you want a tip what I did to reduce the hole on my bike is I got a 2" round rubber washer and just cut out 1 1/4" hole out of it and taped it on there so when I get the new mains I just rip it off to get the full 1.5" since it's only taped on.
I'll tell you what I'll install the 112.5's on my bike tomorrow and I'll do some measuring for you and post it here so you can compare. I wouldn't give up you are basically %90 done you just went a little jihad on the airbox cutting. Try if possible to tape the entire portion of the airbox top so it's closed EXCEPT a 1.5" hole(and the factory snorkle of course) and see how it goes before you do anything else. If you wanted to just tape everything for now except the factory snorkle and see how it runs. It will get rich after a few mins of warming up but if it immediately runs better then you know what the problem is. I would order a new airbox lid so you can cut the proper 1.5" hole in the top, if the old one can't be salvaged.
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K I'm in the middle of this job but here is the spring length after I trimmed it:
110mm or 4 1/4" at least around there I'm using a tape measure not calipers
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Holy F@ck! I popped in the 112.5's and I almost crapped my pants with the amount of power I got out of it! I think I may have to wear Depends(R) undergarments just to ride this thing now :grin: . 1st just short of 1/2 throttle is almost uncontrollable. 2nd at half throttle the front end gets very very light with it coming off the ground on any little bump. I'm scared to go past half throttle now, especially in the city. The roads are jammed pack on Saturday so there was no point going on a highway just to go 20 miles an hour so I drove around town on the roads I know would be at least clearer. I'll pull the plugs after the engine cools which will give me an idea of what it's doing at cruise/bombing around town but it feels awsome. I'm actually scared of this bike now, not that it was that slow to begin with. But now its almost ludicrously fast. I didn't change the turns out on the pilots still at 4 so I'm imagining cruise won't be burning up too much more than what it did before which I was getting crazy good gas mileage at least on the highway. I dropped the shims to 4 from 5 for now to test. I'll have to do some plug chops and see if it needs more or less needle but it seems pretty good. I ripped the tape off the hole so I have the 1.5" hole there now. Actually I think its a touch more as I had to cut it with a hacksaw and while pretty good I think it's a bit oblong. Also my pipe is a little more free flowing than the Holeshot pipe at 2" not 1.75" so I guess I just needed that little extra jet.
So here are my final settings for now Johnny I hope this helps:
Airbox lid with a 1.5"(ish) hole in the top plus the factory hole with snorkle in.
112.5 mains 4 shims(may change but very very close)
17.5 pilots 4 turns out from lightly seated
Slide springs cut to 110mm or 4 1/4" (was measured by a measuring tape not calipers)
For yourself I would try taping up the top until you only have a 1.5" hole and see how it goes. Let us know if you need any more help. I think you're like 90% there.
Here is a little tip if you need to change the jets without pulling the carbs entirely. If you can loosen the boots enough like your going to pull the carbs with the amount of slack with the cables you should be able to shift the carb left or right one carb width so you can take off the float bowls with everything attached. For example to change the right set of carbs, 3 and 4 I took off the TPS lead and the #4 petcock vaccuum tube and shifted the carb bank to the right enough so I could get an allen key under there and change the jets. Same thing on the left, just shift everything to the left and it will give you enough wiggle room to change the jets without pulling them entirely.
After taking the TPS switch off(throttle sensor on #4 carb) and the vacuum tube for the petcock you should be able to have enough slack with the throttle cables and enricher circuit cable still on there to wiggle them so you can get at the jets. You may have to move the handle bars slightly to give one cable or another a little extra slack but it saves a ton of work.
Also I took a look for you on the number 3 float bowl and yes there is a nipple there with a screw beside it. THat's a floatbowl drain nipple. I guess because it's an inner carb mikuni went the extra mile and put a nipple on there so you can attach some hose and drain the floatbowl out the side. Don't worry I don't have anything attached to it either.
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Got out there to mess with it a little today. I'm on kid duty so no test rides today. I taped up the airbox and started it and it ran OK. No more miss at idle and the dead spot at 4k is gone. Then I took the tape off while it was running and it didnt change a bit. So I gues the airbox was not the problem. I wonder if all the float bowls were not full yet or a float got stuck and caused it to flood and temporarily drop a cylinder. Anyway it runs much better now. I let it idle for 10 mins and then revved it up. No flat spot or drop out but it has a lot of popping in the midrange, and my muffler spring vibrates when I rev it. (thats a new occurrence). I'm going to try adding one more shim to the needle as it sounds like a lean pop not like a blubbery rich pop. Now you got me wanting to go 112's with that message but I havent even ridden it yet with the 110's. Thanks for all the quick responses. I'll have my bike running right this weekend I think.
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No no, ride it with what you have I'm just showing you what I ended up with as an example, every bike is different. THe popping at midrange will be reduced if the hole is taped up to only 1.5". Also your absolutely right an extra shim would help in that area as well. Good to hear all is well. Good luck and good riding!
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Got to work a little on it. Added 1 shim more, making it 5 shims. 3 3/4 turns at idle. 17.5 pilot jets and 110 mains. Half of airbox cut open. Almost no pops at 4-6k in driveway now. Drove it. Runs great down low to 4k. Feels lean from 4-6k then pulls like a raped ape from 7k up. I feel like taping up the airbox or just having 1.5" hole is leaving power on the table. I think I need to go to 6 shims or 112.5 jets or both. I'm going to try the shim first since it's easier to do on the bike. If that's good I'll try the jet too just for comparison. Never happy with "just enough".
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I hear you Johnny, it gets a little addictive. Let me know how it goes because I was thinking sort of along the same veins. If it runs this good with 1.5" hole in the airbox I wonder if opening it up slightly more may give it even more crazy power. I do have a K&N filter but it did make it quite lean when popped in with the 110 mains but maybe with larger who knows. Obviously Dale thought of it too as he has a kit along those similar lines whereby the airbox is totally opened up, although I have no idea what he would be using as mains for that setup. I was guessing 117.5 or 120's but I may be wrong. I guess there is only one way to find out.
Here is something interesting for you to look at if you like. It explains why opening up the airbox helps with the breathing of the bike. Since this bike had to pass emissions they totally hobbled it to squeak by the EPA. The airbox is actually designed for the 600 not the 1200 so this bike is defiantly jetted way too low for the size of the engine. According to fastlarry's site. It seems that with 2 2" holes you have enough to use all of the 4 36mm carbs worth of air. Here is the site they'll explain it better.
here is the main site:
http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/banditfaq.htm
Here is the airbox/hole explaination:
http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/2_inch_stats.htm
So theoretically with the kits we have with basically 2 1.5" holes which delivers a little more than half what the carbs can deliver to the engine. In fact a 3" snorkle was about what I had on my on my old '84 GS750EF and thats a 750, so you can imagine how crazy having only 1 1.5" snorkle on a 1200 is.
If this bike was put out in the 80's(it is a slightly detuned/bored 80's GSXR1100 engine) with less restrictive regulations, it probably would have come out with the moral equivalent of the Holeshot stage 1 kit stock. Since Suzuki wisely decided to put all the parts necessary to get some real power out of it. I'm sure the guys at Suzuki probably said to themselves "Ok we'll put all the stuff on there so the owners can fix it (wink wink) but we'll detune it so we can squeak it by the EPA people". So that way they have plausible deniability when people fix it themselves and it explains why it comes so lean from the factory. Mine was terrible until I jetted it.
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With the airbox lid totally opened up you would need 127.5's
I was more interested in getting rid of the cold bloodedness and obvious lean condition even when warmed up.
My journey went like this:
Stock muffler ugly, replace with Scorpion
Too lean added 2 radio shack shims.
mixture screws at 4 out.
Good result but still lean so what do I do
Add 2" hole to airbox with hiflo air filter
result bad
install 112.5 mains
not bad but too lean
plugged hole with plumbing hat.
too rich
increase hole size 1/4" at a time
at 1" still a little lean, determined that for me 3/4" was perfect.
may be that the hiflo flows better than stock so 3/4 hole vs. 1.5
no two will be exactly alike, rather that keep changing jets I adjusted intake hole size.
did not mess with the springs, float hight is very important (13mm)
runs great.
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I rode it at 5 shims and too lean from 4-6k then comes on hard at 7k. Upped it to 6 shims and it got better but not perfect still. I'm calling tech line today.
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I went similarly Dave. I put a K&N and plugged up the hole to 1" and it was pretty good but still too lean with 110 jets. Only when I stuck the stock filter(actually an OEM equivalent which I think flows slightly better) put the 112.5 jets in and put the hole back to 1.5" did I get really good power. I took a look at the plugs and they look awsome now, maybe a little white,(slightly lean mid range) but with a nicely coloured fuel ring(Jet's spot on or very close). I'm wondering if putting on that last shim may make things even better at the usual leaner mid range rpm level. Maybe I'll give it a go.
Hey Johnny glad to hear your getting pretty close, have you popped in the 112.5 jets in there to give them a shot? You're probably closer to sea level than I am so you may get better benefit out of a little more jet than I. If you look earlier in this post here I gave you a tip which makes it so you don't have to completely pull the carbs, it took me about an hour to do and most of that was getting the tank off, side covers, etc.
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Havent done the 112s yet but I called the tech line and he said "get a new cover, I will never get it perfect with the big hole I made." I'm going to tape it up and make the 1.5" hole then try the jets.
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Cool. I would maybe change your post From "20 year car mechanic screwed up the Holeshot install" I don't think you screwed up at all. If you look at the pictures on Dales site and the dinky instructions you get with the kit it's easy to get confused.
Maybe if you removed all the emulsion tubes to really get some fuel in there and hydrolocked the motor and bent a rod, well then maybe :grin:
Yeah I know they are telling you to get a new airbox cover but that will just make it pretty if you tape it up nicely with a 1.5" hole it will work just the same until you get a cover. In fact if you wanted to test maybe do what Dave did. Cut a 1" hole then open it up a 1/4" at a time and see how that goes with the standard settings(5 shims, 3 3/4 turns out). Thats a good way that Dave did it.
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Too late for this thread but there's a decent "How To" on jet kits in the download section - lots of good pictures and really fills in the gaps from Holeshot's instructions.
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I got out the cardboard and the duct tape and fixed the box.
Made a hole like I was supposed to. I'll ride it in to work tomorrow and I'll see if it's better before I buy a cover.
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With the airbox lid totally opened up you would need 127.5's
Was this posted somewhere? It might be an interesting experiment considering I have a K&N filter basically brand new and the cleaning kit for it just sitting in my garage. It's kind of a waste. If I could find out what the settings are I've already bought Dale's stage 1 and 5* advancer, so he's not losing any money. It seems his kit basically is the same as the stage 1 I bought except it comes with needles(adjustable? More aggressive taper?). I figure I could tape the K&N in place and get it right before cutting my airbox lid. Has anyone done this? Might be worth the 10 or 20 bucks to buy the jets and find out. Worse case senario I just go back to what I have now. It's too bad he didn't have it available when I bought my original kit I would have bought the new one instead as it's only .3 of a horsepower away from a full stage 2 with better weather protection.
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For fun I popped in the K&N filter in there put a an extra shim on there for 5 total and turned the screws out to 4.25 and reduced the hole to 1". Definately got a bit more power but I think its just a tad too lean up top. Maybe Ill order 115's for fun.
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That's pretty much what I did with the same results.
Reduce hole to 3/4" or increase mains to 115's
the hiflo is an K&N but not an oiled one.
I use the hiflo 138 oil filter which is a K&N without the nut.
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I just have the generic K&N hi flow with the oil, SU-6000??? or something? Whatever, you're right Dave it works super great but just at the top end do you get a bit lean but its still better than the 1.5" hole with stock filter. Revs up super fast now, definately more power. I just checked the plugs and it's very very close so I'm assuming if I did go to 115's I would probably have to drop a shim or two or maybe turn the mixture screws back to 4 or whatever. But wow what a difference now.
I may go with the bigger jets because I fabricated a nice mini-velocity stack with a Valve grommet for some truck from Canadian tire(it was only $10 for a pair). It actually is almost Identical to the factory intake snorkle and it actually looks to be part of the original airbox(just with a mini intake on top). I'll try and see if I can take a picture. I may pick another 2 pack of those grommets as I had to widen it to get to 1" (they taper to 1/2" hole) I'm sure I could just widen it to 3/4" if I didn't want to wait for jets, and it's easier to install. I just like the idea of not having to buy an air filter every year.
And yes the K&N or equivalent flows way more air than a paper filter. I've done some research and it's anywhere from 25% to double. However it doesn't trap as many particles. If you're worried about it though I guess you could change your oil in your bike more frequently but by the time any particles would be doing any real damage the bike would have fallen apart from age.
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So I took cardboard and duct tape to patch the box and cut the 1.5" hole like Dale said and it runs perfect now. (Hmmmm, when you follow the instructions it works right... aaah. Gonna try the 112.5s though because they got such good results from 123.
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Yep after fooling with the K&N I went back too. I'm at 5 shims, 112.5 mains and 4 turns on the 17.5's, 1.5" hole in the box. All is good.
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So I took cardboard and duct tape to patch the box and cut the 1.5" hole like Dale said and it runs perfect now. (Hmmmm, when you follow the instructions it works right... aaah. Gonna try the 112.5s though because they got such good results from 123.
Glad to hear you got good results.
I did my Holeshot Stage 1 per Dale's instructions and the results are excellent.
He really knows his stuff.
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I still need to work on the idle setting. It takes a few before it will idle on it's own. (on a 95 degree day). And if I put the choke on, it loads up. I'm at 3.75 turns out. Gonna try 4. Anyone have luck turning the screws with the carbs still on. Looks real tight.
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Yes just use a screwdriver bit and a cheap dental mirror from a drugstore.
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Cool, I'm on it by this weekend. Thanks.
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So my first tankfull went by this week. I used to get 39mpg. This tank was 47.39 mpg. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttttt?!?!?!?!?!?! I can pay for my gas money to work with recycling bottles and cans!
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Yeah I got a bit of a boost too in MPG with the 110 mains. The bike is breathing better so it doesn't have to work as hard. However with the 112.5's I think it went back down. Also I'm a little heavier on the throttle now!