Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: mpatrick on February 09, 2012, 09:59:43 AM
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First post here and of course its because I'm having problems.
I just got a 2000 1200s with about 17k on the clock, it had been sitting for about a year or so. I did all the usual stuff before riding it such as change the oil (valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil) and filter, flush the brakes and clutch fluid.
Getting it to run was a bit harder, I took the carbs off and cleaned all the passageways, jets etc, it runs but just not very well from 1000k-4000k, I assume this is a carb issue.
My real problem is that the clutch is slipping pretty bad. When I first start the bike and ride everything is fine, by the time I get out of my neighborhood the lever gets tighter and you can disengage the clutch with very, very little pull of the lever. Bleeding the clutch seems to help for a few pulls, then its back to being tight. I have cleaned the pushrod which was very dirty, that didn't seem to help. I'm just not sure how to clutch could being going out with so little miles. My uncles lasted 80k, and he rides hard. Any help would be great.
Thanks, Mike
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First off... :welcome: to the site.
I don't have anything specific to offer - sounds like somethings not retracting properly. Either that or you need to install a stronger clutch spring (Barnett).
17K is a young clutch unless it was abused by a previous owner somehow. Hopefully someone will be along shortly with better suggestions.
Keep us posted on your progress.
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Stronger springs would definitely help. Is the bike stock? 1000-4000 is mainly pilots, maybe try turning out the screws a 1/4 turn and seeing if that helps a bit you could also shim the needles a .5 mm shim that might get the mains on faster. You're at the end of the GEN1 before they beefed up the clutch. Installing stronger springs is recommended by most of the guys here but 17000 is pretty low maybe take a quick look at the clutch plates while you have the cover off.
However the clutch lever getting "hard" I'm not understanding do you mean that the clutch is hard to pull in? Maybe the clutch master cylinder is gummed up or rusty and the piston is not returning completely, that would cause the clutch to slip as it's already half disengaged. It would also make it easier to disengage from your symptoms that your discribing. I would start there. I'm assuming you flushed it when you bleed the brakes? Things get a little gummed up when they've been sitting for a year. You could also try a little seafoam in the fuel tank and a good high speed highway run might just clear out all the little passages in the carbs.
What I would do is totally flush out the master cylinder and clutch lines again and make sure the tiny hole which allows the piston to return to the open condition is not gummed up with dirt or rust flecks. If that hole is gummed it causes the piston to not return properly to the full open position and will basically be the same as if you pulled the clutch in slightly which would cause the clutch to slip. I saw this once on another bike. THe owner swore up and down that the clutch was phucked but what it was, was the clutch master cylinder was gummed and not returning properly. Yo could give it a shot. Letting a bike sit for long periods of time is the worse thing you can do to a bike. It could be rusted inside, return valve gummed or plugged up with rust flecks, etc. Take a piece of wire and clean out the return hole. That may fix your problem entirely as I doubt at 17000 miles the clutch is dead. However if it was semi-phucked and the previous owner was slipping the clutch all over the place he may have pre-maturely wore it down.
Since you said that after bleeding it works for a few pulls I would say that the piston is not returning properly and after pumping it a few times the pressure builds up enough it actually half dis-engages the clutch. Take a look at that master cylinder again.
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The lever does get harder to pull in, not by much but it is noticeable. The lever goes from having to pull in about halfway to shift to being able to shift by pulling almost nothing in, the longer I ride the worse it gets. Almost like the slave is not returning when letting go of the lever.
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This is probably from pressure building up and not being released. It's the same when you pump your brakes the pressure builds and builds and it gets harder and harder to put on the brakes. I would take a look or even take entirely apart and clean the master cylinder assembly and the piston. I bet you a dollar it's gummed up or full of rust flecks or dirt which is not allowing the pressure to be released entirely when the lever is released.
I would try this solution as it's the easiest and the consistent with your symptoms. Always try the simple/cheap fixes first. If you want to be lazy, you'll see the return valve at the bottom of the master cylinder just get a piece of wire and work it in and out of the hole(no pun intended) and clear the crap out of there.
The symptoms of your problems are common with a bike thats been left to rot. Don't sweat it. As for the carbs I would use some fresh gas with a little sea foam and do the "Italian tune up" a few times which should help clear the shit out of there. What you do is make sure the bike is warmed up. When stopped have access to the intake snorkle, rev the bike up to 5 or 6 thousand then let off the throttle and cover up the snorkle at the same time back down to idle. What this does is create a shitload of vacuum in the carbs sucking up any crud or clearing gummed up passageways in the carbs. Do it a few times with a bit of sea foam in the tank and I'll bet your pilots will clean themselves up in no time. Take it for a long highway jaunt will sure help it as well.
If the clutch plates are slightly warped or the clutch is engaging/disengaging weirdly it may drive wonky with the carbs totally fine as the bike would put power to the wheel unevenly. Fixing the clutch may make all the other symptoms be reduced or go away completely.
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That's what I was thinking my next step would be, I'll try it tonight and let y'all know how it goes.
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Ooops I forgot to say if your taking the master cylinder off make sure you cover your paint brake fluid will pit the paint very very easily. Maybe tape up some newspapers over all the painted surfaces when you take the master cylinder off.
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Maybe a dumb question when I look into the bottom of the master I see 2 holes, one i can see the plunger clearly the other is tiny and I cant see anything, I assume the tiny one is the return. Am I right?
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I'm not sure on your master cylinder as I have the next Generation of bike. However if you want drain a little of the brake fluid with a paper towel so that there is a thin layer maybe of a few millimeter of fluid and pump the clutch you see either a jet shoot up where the return hole is, or just a little fountain. It should be the tiny of the two holes,it may be too small to clean out without taking the cylinder off but you can give it a shot. Sometimes if you take some picture hanging wire and unwind a few of the windings it should be small enough to get in there. I know its tough it's a little tiny hole so it gets gummed up easily unfortunately.
Just remember cover that paint!
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Well Last night I cleaned the master and the slave, both of which were pretty filthy with the slave being the worse. There were chunks of dirt and grime in the slave. The lever does feel different, but I haven't had a chance to ride it yet (started raining). Cross your fingers that it worked. Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.
Also I tried the Italian tune up but I cant seem to get my hand close enough the cover the hole completely, any tricks.
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I own a Gen 1 bike. I have 75k miles on it.
Regarding the carbs. My bike was never very smooth at low rpms until it was rejetted. You didn't say if your carbs were stock but many bikes were rejetted. Bigger pilots helped helped smooth it out, but the Stage 1 with larger mains and 2nd airbox hole makes it run much better. Just don't expect to get good gas mileage, stock or modified.
Regarding the clutch. These bikes have weak clutches, mine started slipping (hi gear, hiway speeds) at about 24k miles. The real fix is adding one Barnett spring. This makes the clutch pull pretty robust. I tried a Barnett clutch pack that lasted for fewer miles than the stock one. I went back to a stock clutch & added one stiff springs & it's lasted for about 40k miles or more with no problems. I recently cleaned out the fluid, I think the rubber line is getting a little spongy and contaminated the fluid. I might go to stainless line soon- I've already done it to the brakes- makes a big difference.
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The carbs are stock as far as I know. They have been serviced before at a shop before I got the bike if that makes a difference. I can tell you that the previous owner rode the thing like a grandma, so I don't think that the bike was abused to make the clutch go out so soon.
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Doesn't really sound like the oil is causing the clutch to slip - seems more brake system related. I personally stay away from synthetic oils (not sure if either two you mentioned are synth or not) due to the high cost and Shell Rotella's 15w-40 performance over the last 100,000+ miles.
Hope the rain moves out soon and you report back that everything's stellar. :thumb:
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It may be fine once you the clutch starts to function ok. Like I said if it's been slipping and putting power to the rear wheel all wonky like who knows what it's like once everything is A ok. If you drill out the mixture screw plugs and turn them out a 1/4 turn that might cure some of the cold bloodedness and smooth things out a little. Also a carb sync will help you out as well. Here is a thread I started with a carb syncer I built for $5. It works great!!!
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.msg104034;topicseen#new
I know the 1st gen Bandit's clutch springs were a bit weak and I know the clutch spring trick is a good idea for that Gen of bike and cheap and easy mod. The only way that the oil would cause the clutch to slip is maybe if it was full synthetic which for wet clutches can cause them to slip. I only use semi-synthetic but haven't had a problem yet and I'm at 40000km. However I'm not doing drag race trap shoots, but I'm not exactly putting around either. As far as the "Italian tune up" goes as long as you cover most of it it will increase the vacuum alot, but the best way is a long highway run or running around with lots of throttle racing around a bit. I guess the owner before you was putting around too much and the pipes weren't getting cleaned out. Since the bike has low milage I'll bet you the clutch springs are probably fine for now but take LowRyder's advice and maybe pop in a stronger clutch spring later on in the year or next winter or something. If the clutch never engages completely because of a sticky clutch system then they may be tired from being slightly more compressed than normal.
If you have to take the carbs apart to clean them out you might as well do a stage 1 jetting and get an extra 10-15 horsepower out of the deal, you won't regret it. There are alot of guys here that can help you with your generation of bike in regards to jet selection. That $10 you spend on jets will be the best $10 you've ever spent.
It basically involves making a 2" hole in the airbox lid and upping the Mainjets and shimming the needles and adjusting the mixture screws. If you can take apart the brake assembly you can do a jet kit as it's actually EASIER than what you've already accomplished.
Here is a good site to give you more info:
http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/banditfaq.htm
Most of the stuff there is for your Gen of Bandit.
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I was gonna do a carb sync tonight. I borrowed one of those high dollar sync tools from a guy at work. The mixtures screw caps have already been drilled, would you suggest I re-seat the screws and start from scratch?
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It might be a good idea because who know where they are or even if they are all the same. Mine from the factory were all over the place. I set them all to my current 4 turns out and the bike ran alot more smoothly. I'm not sure what the standard turns out are but on Fast Larry's site it says 2 to 3 turns out stock so maybe 2.5 would be a good place to start then adjust up or down as necessary. For my Generation bike it's 3 turns out from lightly seated stock. Let me see if I can get a more solid answer for you. If you use a discombobulated flat head bit you can turn the mixture screws without pulling the carbs and a dental mirror to check position.
EDIT: Here is the shop manual for you bike from the downloads section:
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item47
K from the Clymer manual from the above link the standard turns out is 1 3/4 turns out form lightly seated so that would be a good start. Maybe 2 turns would be more like it as these bikes are jetted lean from the factory but the Gen 1 bike is not as bad as the Gen 2 bikes. Since the bike has low milage who knows when the carbs were actually synced so resetting the mixture screws and syncing the carbs is probably a good idea.
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Thanks for all the info. I tried to download the manual and I keep getting a corruption error. Do you know where else I can download the manual.
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I have the manual on my system, I will be glad to send it to you.
Let me know.
Mike
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Well a hour and half and few blistered knuckles later I got the carbs pretty well synced. They are all within a line or two of one another with gauge i'm using. I put the pilot screws out about 2-1/2 turns, they were all over the place from 2 - 3 1/2 turns. It does seem to be running smoother but I still have some hesitation at right about 3500 then it powers right up to redline. I assume when I eventually rejet that this will be fixed, correct? Still haven't rode it yet but the sounds its making do sound promising. Its supposed to be bright and sunny here tomorrow so we will see how it goes then.
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Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.
No, I would NOT be concerned that the oil change is part of your problem. I think you are on the right track with your hydraulic issues, especially the slave cylinder end. I would also take apart the release ramp mechanism and clean and relube it.
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yes, the rejet smoothed out flat spot 4k rpm.
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You can temporarily make it less noticeable with another 1/4 to half turn out, but down low may be a bit rich. If you just lightly blip the throttle and the revs when coming back down to idle go below idle then recover you're too rich on the pilots. If you blip the throttle and the idle hangs up higher than idle and floats back down you are too lean. Make sure your %100 warmed up before adjusting, at least a 20 min ride in winter.
If you would like you can get some shims at radio shack and put one on the needle this will lift it making it richer in that dead spot probably eliminating it. I'm assuming you have an American bike with non-adjustable needles.
Radio shack shims part #64-3022A
I would only put one shim under c-clip of the needle or the plastic "doughnut" to raise it a bit, If it's that horrid stock exhaust and mid-pipe. I'm not sure where you are but it is winter and colder temps require richer jetting. These bikes are super lean out of the factory to get by emissions. However on the bright side they are almost stupidly easy to tune. If you like take one of the outside carb float bowls off and read off the mainjet and pilot jet size for us so we know if it's stock or not. Stock exhaust on there?
When I first got my bike and before I piped and rejetted it I set all the screws(mine were all over the place too, out of the factory) to the stock 3 turns out on my Gen2 and it was smoother, but even with the stock exhaust it was kind of weak. Turning the screws out a 1/4 turn extra and adding 1 radio shack shim given to me by another forum member, really helped especially when cold, it improved warm up as well as cruise smoothness and throttle response. Try another 1/4 turn and see if it gets any smoother. 3500 is just right at the transition period from the pilots to more of the needle and mains. So either shimming which will give that lean area more fuel, or another 1/4 turn or so will do the same and smooth the cruise out. Your choice. Personally I would do both, add 1 shim and another 1/4 turn as these bikes are super lean, it may not totally fix it(really need a rejet and aftermarket mid-pipe and slip on) but it will drive %100 better.
If you're going to get an aftermarket slip on, make sure it comes with a mid-pipe as well. The stock mid-pipe is super restricted and just getting a slip on is not going to do it. It's literally a waste of jets unless the mid-pipe which is at least a good %60-70% of the restriction is replaced. They are cheap I got my Muzzy slip on and mid-pipe on Ebay for $150 shipped. It came with a centre stand stop and everything. But if you buy one that doesn't have a centre stand stop you can fabricate one out of heavy sheet metal for a few bucks.
Here is a place to get a slip on and mid-pipe cheap with free shipping in the States, however they do not offer a centre stand stop so you will have to buy a few dollars worth of sheet metal and fabricate a centre stand stop. I can describe mine which fits over the centre stand existing bolt, it's doesn't need to be super strong it's basically a piece of metal the centre stand can rest on. Or you can pay like $30 from Holeshot and get a fancy one. Bottom line if it doesn't have a mid-pipe DONT BOTHER WITH IT, get something else. People here have been stuck with super expensive end-cans that do almost nothing because they didn't check to see if the setup came with a mid-pipe. One guy we were helping is going to buy a whole Dan Moto system just to steal the mid-pipe which is a pricey fix, Considering his two brothers slip on is $300 and does almost nothing without a mid-pipe.
Cheap slip ons with mid-pipe systems:
http://www.dan-moto.com/DM_US/gsf-bandit-600-1200-n-s-wholesale-18_20_58.html
Just a word about the Dan moto exhausts they will sound awsome but may be a little loud for you, I've seen videos and the quietest one is the triangular because you can stuff more packing material in there. So if you want a stealthy but healthy sound go for that. If you want a full bore jihad-mobile go for the carbon fibre or the GP or whatever. Or go with a pricier setup but I'm just giving you the cheapest option. Also you can buy a jet kit for $150 or if you know what your doing we can give you the jet sizes and you can go and pay $10 for jets and use the Radio Shack shims, it's up to you. It invovles modding the airbox lid for better airflow and adjusting the needles/mixture screws it's pretty easy. I recommend you try the $10 option and let us help you tune it for free. You sound very competant and these bikes are so easy to tune is almost silly.
So for $130 For a dan moto special and $10 in jets, you get 10-15 horsepower extra + non wonky stock lean jetting. It's the best $150 you'll spend.
But maybe wait until all the little bugs are worked out first, you're making alot of good progress, best not to change too many things at once until all is good. Although on the other hand replacing the jets will guarantee that they aren't gummed up. Maybe get all the materials first, ie exhaust, jets, Radio shack shims etc. and fix the clutch cylinder. Once it has all that extra power you may want to buy one Barnett clutch spring and pop it in there to beef up the clutch.
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Do y'all think that changing brands of oil would make the clutch slip? Previous owner only ever used yamalube, I put in valvoline 10w40 motorcycle oil.
No, I would NOT be concerned that the oil change is part of your problem. I think you are on the right track with your hydraulic issues, especially the slave cylinder end. I would also take apart the release ramp mechanism and clean and relube it.
Where's the release ramp mechanism?
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So for $130 For a dan moto special and $10 in jets, you get 10-15 horsepower extra + non wonky stock lean jetting. It's the best $150 you'll spend.
But maybe wait until all the little bugs are worked out first, you're making alot of good progress, best not to change too many things at once until all is good. Although on the other hand replacing the jets will guarantee that they aren't gummed up. Maybe get all the materials first, ie exhaust, jets, Radio shack shims etc. and fix the clutch cylinder. Once it has all that extra power you may want to buy one Barnett clutch spring and pop it in there to beef up the clutch.
Yeah I am gonna try and get all the bugs worked out first, I haven't even really rode it yet more than 15 miles at a time anyway.
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OK good news, bad news.
Good news is that I don't think the clutch is slipping anymore. I tried everything I could to make it slip, and It didn't. I did the exact same things that I was doing before when it was slipping and no slip. It is a few degrees colder here than when I rode it last but I don't think that would make a difference that much. Also the lever feels much better. I had it up to about 105mph in 4th high rpms and it was rock solid as far as the clutch is concerned.
Bad news is that its still not running very well at idle to about 3500. And there's a miss on number 3, when I got the bike there was a miss on number 2 but that seems fine now. Its like it just moved cylinders. I don't know if my syncing screwed things up, I'm gonna try it again in a little while. The throttle is pretty slow to come back down now, when I rev the bike it takes it a while to settle back down to idle. These carbs are gonna drive me crazy.
I have changed the spark plugs if that helps rule some stuff out.
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Awsome job on the clutch!!!
Ok this may help you out a bit as I had a similar problem when my pilots were too lean as it's affecting idle to 3500 so thats all pilots.
Wait until the bike is totally cold(dead cold) and start it up normally run for maybe 10 sec on the choke then cut the choke completely. Use the throttle to keep the revs up around the 2000rpm mark or so and put your hands on the intake boots closest to the engine block, make sure you get the ones that you think are trouble carbs(3 in your case) Do you hear sort of a "sneeze" or backfire and feel the intake boots jump with the sneezes or misfires? Does a specific cylinder backfire more than the others? This sneeze is due to the pilots being lean, even when perfectly tuned there will be a little bit if cold but if it's "sneezing" badly I would turn the mixture screws out half a turn to 3 turns out in your case.
Another good way to test is drive around the bike normally until fully warmed up. Then just drive around in the problem area. Go from around idle accelerating very lightly up until 3500 then back down and back up again. After a few passes hit the kill switch at the top of the problem area and coast to a stop. What do the plugs look like? Are they overly white? Is one cylinder leaner than the others?
To be honest it sounds like you just need a half turn out on the mixture screws. With your symptoms with it hanging up at idle its either lean pilot screw settings, or you have a vacuum leak. Double check the intake boots and the airbox boots and make sure the clamps are tight. If you want to double check go buy some starter fluid and at idle spray around the intake boots. If the idle increases you have a vacuum leak in the boots. Is the airfilter stock or a K&N? If it's a K&N I guarantee you it will be lean as hell with stock jets in there.
If it's a K&N you might want to buy a stock filter for now, you'll get more power. Or just go get an aftermarket can and jet it as soon as you can. Turning the mixture screws out even with a K&N will at least help it.
The carb sync only affects the throttle butterfly valves not the mixtures, I'm sure you did a good job I wouldn't bother there. Try turning the mixture screws out, hell turn them to 3 and half turns. Whatever the bike needs is where it should be. Hell I'm at 4 with no problems. However if you go past 4.5 turns it's best if you go one size up pilot jet. However I doubt you'll go much past 3 turns as long as there is a stock filter and no air leaks. If there is a K&N filter in there you will need at least another half turn over that and a shim to make it sort of normal. Sometimes people read some crap advertisment out there or not understand that you can't just increase airflow and have instant power, you need to jet it correctly so the fuel/air mixture is correct. More air, more fuel, etc. If you listened to K&N's bullshit they would have you believe you just pop it on there for an instant 5 hp. Its crap! You will actually LOSE power because the already lean factory mixture will just get leaner. You must jet it up for the increased airflow. Check that filter, if it's the K&N panel filter it should be a reddish colour from the K&N oil they use and will have a company logo on it somewhere. Stock should be whitish with not an official marking or whatever, maybe just the suzuki "S". If you can take the document tray off you should be able to look inside the air intake and see if the filter is red or white. If it's white your good, if it's red take out the filter and have a look.
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I will try your suggestions, and report back.
EDIT: The bike is completely stock, no K&N or anything. The stock filter is a lil dirty but not that bad.
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Cool then your in business. Turn the mixture screws out another half a turn to 3 and try it out. When you blip it and the idle goes BELOW on it's way back then recovers you've gone too far. Don't sweat it your very very close. Just make sure that you ride around a good 20 minutes to test.
Double check the boots for tightness and if you like get some starter fluid to spray around the boots at idle. In fact turn the mixtures to 3 and go and drive to get the fluid is a perfect test to see if the extra boost on the pilots are helping you out. Also note if it gets better when hot than cold. If it's crap but gets slightly better when hot then you are definately lean on the pilot screws.
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HOLY SHIT!
I turned out the mixtures screws to about 3 1/4, went for a ride. I just did my normal commute to work to see how it felt compared to earlier in the week. It's 100% better, now I know why so many people like this bike. I didn't have to feather the throttle at lights like usual the idle is nice and smooth. When I got on it the power was there and no clutch slip, the bike is just so much nicer to ride now. I want to thank everyone for the help especially rider123. I am sure I'll still be asking questions in the future but for now I think we can call this case closed.
hmm...now I have to figure out how to get that front faring off....
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No problem. Trust me these bikes are addictive. I bought mine new 6 years ago and I think I'll keep the thing until it totally dies, even if I get different bikes. To get extra power is dirt cheap and addictive. The only thing that is a drawback is once it's piped and jetted you may need to buy more underwear!!! Here's a nice wish list in order of cheapness to more expensive:
Stock HP: 98-102 HP
Best Bang for your buck/easiest to live with:
Semi-decent slip on with mid-pipe: $130
Stage 1 jetting to go with it: $10 or $20 depending how many sets of jets you want to experiment with.
Radio shack or hobby store shims: $5
K&N filter to go with stage 1 jetting: $40
Horsepower increase: 15HP minimum 18MAX<--Gen 1 Bandits seem to have slightly more than GEN2 with a stage 1. Probably due to the RF900 Carbs.
Total cost around $200
Ease of install: Stupidly easy.
Characteristics: Retains most of the bottom end if not all, with a huge mid-range punch and a very frisky top end, most drivable and easy to live with for normal around town driving. Best fuel economy out of the basic mods. Can be installed even if piss drunk it's so easy.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: 3 out of 7 days of the week. It will wheelie with ease especially in the mid-range. Don't eat any Tacos 12 hours before riding or you'll have a burning ring of fire when you scare yourself shitless and no, I'm not talking about the piston rings.
Same setup with Stage 2 Jetting:
Semi-decent slip on with mid-pipe: $130
Stage 2 jetting to go with it: $20 to $30 as you will probably buy a few more sets of mainjets and probably need new pilots
Horsepower increase: 18-22 HP<--give you a few more ponies over stage 1
K&N pod filters: $150
Total Cost: $250-$300 bucks
Ease of install: Don't get drunk before installing. Sometimes stage 2 is a little trickier to get right, but it gets rid of the stock airbox. May be wonky in the rain as the pods will be exposed unlike the GEN 2 Bandits which cover them up with side covers. The actual install is easy but tuning may require more patience. Basic mod for any engine or full exhaust system upgrades.
Characteristics: slightly noticeable decrease in the bottom end but still very decent but Mid-range gets even more crazy and the top end is starting to get frightening. Stay away from Indian food.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: 4 out of 7 Days of the week. If you weren't scared before now, you will start to be.
Options recommend after Stage 2:
Stepped header to go with mid-pipe:
Cost: $820
HP increase: 3-5 HP extra over stage 2
Characteristics: Will slightly decrease the bottom end more but add a little more punch to the mid-range and move it up slightly up the RPM scale. Most of the gains are up top.
Depends(R)underwear change rating: 5 out of 7 days of the week.
GSXR CAMS:
Cost: $400 average, sometimes you can find them on Ebay or get new for $500
Intake cam: 5-7 HP retains most of the bottom end and mid-range
Exhaust Cam: another 5-7 Horsepower will move HP higher up the RPM scale.
Ease of install: You'll have to take the engine apart so get a sober friend to help you.
Characteristics: Bottom end is still there but noticeably weaker with both of the Cams in there. Mid-range is moved up the scale and silly, top end is dangerous to all but the most questionably sane person.
Total HP with all the mods in there: Maybe 135-145 HP.
Depends(R) underwear change rating: "ERROR! OFF SCALE, PLEASE INSTALL PLUG IN COLONOSCOPY BAG". Don't say I didn't warn you!
As far as taking the fairing off I think the Gen1 is ok to take off but you may have to buy a headlight assembly if you want to go naked. Gen2 you need a new instrument cluster as well. It can be done, but the general consensus is it's too much work for having no wind protection but hey go ahead it's your bike. But at 150 MPH or just normal long extended highway runs you may miss that fairing. I don't know for the GEN1 Bandit what you need jet wise as I have a GEN2 which uses different carbs but I'm sure someone here will help you out to get started.
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I've got an advancer on mine. $30 from Dale.
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Oh yeah forgot about that as it came with the Kit I bought from Dale. It really helps the throttle response and possible a HP or two in the Mid-range. Dales recomended settings were way off on my bike, so I fixed it myself but if you want super duper tech support his $150 kit is hard to beat but adds another $150 on to the stage 1 cost. Probably %90 of the time his recommended settings are spot on so basically plug and play and Dale's a good guy to work with.
I think LowRyter made a good suggestion about the one Barnett clutch spring. It's not super imperative right now, but it might be a good idea to source one out eventually.
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UPDATE:
Well after a few days of riding its starting to act up. I have some surging going on around 3k-5k. 1st and 2nd gear feel pretty terrible with easy throttle, real jerky like a hard miss, Its better with more throttle buts still feel a miss. I am at 3 1-2 turns out on the pilots. It smells real rich. Any advice?
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Back the pilots down to where you thought they were good at(3 1/4?). Could be crud in the floats getting swirled up and blocking the pilots. How does the inside of the tank look? Is there rust particles in there? It might be a good idea to take the outside carb float bowls off just to see if any shit is floating around in there. I'm assuming you're using fresh gas correct?
If the inside of the tank is a bit rusty, fine particles of rust will eventually work there way down and temporarily block the pilots. Hence the jerkyness. You may have to bite the bullet and pull the carbs and take a fine wire and clean all the jets. With it sitting that long there could be a varnish buildup in there or rust particles. If there is rust, maybe buy a fuel filter at least for a few months to catch all the shit that builds up when the bike is left for so long. If you wanted to you could drain the tank and remove the petcock and take a look at the filter to see if it's blocked with rust particles, that's a sure sign that some of the finer stuff will make it down to the carbs. You will see what looks like brown dirt in the carbs float bowls.
Even my bike which is fairly new and the inside looks immaculate still has a teeny amount of rust particle build up in the float bowls last time I took them off a month ago. The rust particles are finer than sand but if enough get swirled up when driving around the vacuum of the jets will suck them up and temporarily disrupt fuel flow enough to be felt. Pull the outside bowls and have a look, that way your not pulling the whole carb assembly. If you want to be lazy just drain the bowls with the drain screws which will clear the crap out of there. Open the drain screws really wide to create a large enough hole for the shit to flow out and maybe put it on prime for a few secs on each bowl. That will flush out alot of the crap.
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The tank is good. I have been through the carbs and cleaned everything, checked floats etc. I think I might be expecting too much, I have only put on about 100 miles total on the bike, maybe just riding it more and running a few tanks through will help cure some problems. I am gonna turn the screws in before I ride home and see what that does.
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Since it was running fine a couple of days ago I think it's just choking on the last bits of crap from being sitting for so long, it's the worst thing you can do to a bike. Could be some bits of rust broke off or varnish buildup in the jets. Putting in a little seafoam through a couple of tanks of gas might help alot. I don't think it's anything serious it's just clearing it's throat :grin: Put a tank or two of regular instead of mid-grade or premium through it. It doesn't have enough compression to really use premium and regular gas has a lot of throughput at the pumps so there is less shit floating around in it and will generally be fresher than the higher octane stuff. I have an advancer on mine and I only have to go to mid-grade but it will still run on regular when not hot out. The lower octane stuff is more volatile so it will burn a bit better when you are trying to run some gas and seafoam through the fuel system.
If you want to help clean the pilots out rev up high in second or third then let the engine slow the bike down by engine compression with a closed throttle, it will really suck on those pilots which may help clear them out a bit. This weekend if you have time go for a nice long highway ride. If the gas is questionable keep topping the tank up as you drive to get as much good gas in there as possible.
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I have the same bike and it sounds to me like you need to replace and bleed your clutch's master cylinders fluid and for the carbs check the emulsion tubes with a good magnifying glass (the tubes the needle jets slide in).My bike was doing the same thing and I replaced all the jets but still had the same problem till I replaced the tubes.You should sync your carbs and set the float heights also to get it running perfect.Use your search engine and you'll find everything about both on the net....
Good luck.....
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Welcome to the board locky! He already got the clutch working well which is a bonus and had the bike running well as well. It just started to act up again which tell's us it's just choking off the little bit's of crap or bad gas thats left over. Unless the bowls are full of crud it's nothing a couple of tanks full of fresh gas can't cure with a little seafoam to melt any varnishing on the jets. It a common problem when bikes are left to rot, but easily fixable. He only just got it so he hasn't done a long highway blast which is probably needed.
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UPDATE:
Well got to do some investigating today. I found that it is definitely #3 missing. After warmed up and idling I took the temps off the pipes and 1,2, and 4 are within a few degrees of one another, 3 is a couple hundred off. I pulled the #3 and #4 plugs to look and this is what I saw.
#3 on the left.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wnsddbVgGt8/Tz0KvGdAAsI/AAAAAAAABLQ/fmm1idLiJac/s640/IMG_0108%2520%2528Small%2529.jpg)
I switched the plugs when I put them back in, and I found that it makes no difference in temp, #3 is still low. One thing I did find out though is when I give it a little choke #3 starts to come up to temp, I'm not sure what that means. I'm sure I should pull the carbs again to give it another go at cleaning but I don't trust the o-rings and gasket to last for anymore investigative surgeries and the damn rebuild kits cost a fortune.
I also shot a terrible video so you can hear how its running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1CXFDNewd0&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1CXFDNewd0&feature=youtu.be)
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You pic didn't post showing off the plugs which would help.
I'm assuming you took the carbs apart and made sure the float height is all the same? If so you may have to take the carbs out and take a look at number 3 carb, it could be gummed up with rust flecks or varnish. Take the pilot and mainjet right out of there soak them in brake cleaner then take a small wire and work it through the hole in the jet. Make sure there is no crud under the needle valve stopping the fuel prematurely and starving that carb. That cylinder is obviously leaner than the others at idle and leaner than the rest. You can hear it slightly at idle and the other cylinders which are perfect can't totally mask the lazy cylinder. Also when you rev it and it hits that cylinder you can hear that it kind of skip a bit then accelerates. The other cylinders sound awsome. If you recheck the mixture screws on that cylinder I'm sure it will clear it up. Make %100 sure that it's set to what the other cylinders are. If you are %100 sure, turn the mixture screws a 1/4 turn at a time out until the cylinder has enough juice to be in line with the others. That cylinder is also causing the idle to hang up a bit when lightly revved.
Here's what to test before taking the carbs off:
(Can skip this step if you're sure of the float height)
If you want to see if that number 3's float height is jiving with the others you can do it without taking the carbs off. Get some clear plastic hose and attach it to the drain nipples on number 3 and number 4 on the right hand side of the bike. Curve the hoses to be above the float bowl and temporarily tape it to the right side of the carb bank. Open up the drain screws and the fuel should fill up the hose dictated by the float height. Take a look. Sometimes even when the float height is set to say 14.7mm or whatever for the gen1 there will be minute differences. If there are air bubbles just start the bike and they'll go away. Are the levels within a mm or so of each other?
Here a video where he loved it so much he made it permanant which I think is overkill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG1Qiki7hH8
Another test you can try is turn the mixture screw on that cylinder a full or half turn out temporarily then measure the temp of the pipe in case you miscounted the turns out or turned it the wrong way. I've done that before, So for example, you have it at 2 1/4 turns and not 3 1/4 turns so the cylinder is dragging and getting even leaner. Is it now falling in line with the other cylinders? You can compensate for a gummy pilot a bit by opening the screws on that specific cylinder. It's also not unheard of to have a cylinder needing an extra 1/4 turn or so more or less then the other cylinders. Since every carb has microscopic machining differences, amounts of wear on needle valves, etc some may need more or less. What does the plug look like? Try riding around in the "dead zone" and pull that plug with some gloves or wait until the bike is cool. If the base ring doesn't have at least one full turn of colour you're running lean on the pilot on that cylinder. Recount the turns on that mixture screw to be sure it's in line. Maybe you leaned it instead of riched it up when adjusting to 3 1/4 turns by accident? I've done that before too having a brain fart and turned it the wrong way. If you turned it the wrong way by accident that cylinder may be 3/4 of a turn IN from 2.5 which would make it 1 3/4! Instead of 3 1/4. Reset that mixture screw!
Here's a tip which helps so you don't have to pull the carbs to reset the inner carb mixture screws. Get a flathead bit that is a few inches long such as one for a multibit screwdriver. Turn the mixture screws in which if your on the right hand side of the bike for number 3 carb to the right or towards the engine block until it's LIGHTLY seated then take a cheap dollar store dental mirror or ransack your wife's purse for a hand mirror and with a magic marker mark where the mixture screw has stopped on the underside stalk ring. Use the hand mirror to make sure your marking it correctly. If you're off just wipe it off with your finger and try again.
Once it's pretty good insert the screwdriver bit like your going to unscrew the mixture screws and make a mark on the outside of the stalk and continue down onto the driver bit. Now when you turn the turns out as long as that line comes around and you can see it from the outside it will be one turn so you don't have to micromanage with a mirror to count. So now just unscrew and when the two lines on the outside of the mixture screw stalk and the driver bit line up it's one turn. So count out 3 turns, then get the mirror out and turn another 1/4 turn to be in line with the others. Retest the bike. Once it's pretty well spot on you can use the tiny 3/4 inch flathead bits instead of the big momma to fine tune.
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hmmm I see the picture. Well anyway heres the link.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wnsddbVgGt8/Tz0KvGdAAsI/AAAAAAAABLQ/fmm1idLiJac/s640/IMG_0108%2520%2528Small%2529.jpg (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wnsddbVgGt8/Tz0KvGdAAsI/AAAAAAAABLQ/fmm1idLiJac/s640/IMG_0108%2520%2528Small%2529.jpg)
I'm gonna try your suggestions tonight more than likely and then report back.
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Are you saying the super rich plug is the plug thats missing? If the number 3 is the sooty/rich one see reset the mixture screws to make sure you haven't gone OVERBOARD with the mixture screws and it's fouling the plug. Also make sure the lead is seated nicely. In fact if all the cylinders look like the rich plug I would turn the mixture screws in at least a 1/4 turn or more that sooty ring and sooty electrode tip are a sign of richness down low. If the all look like the lean one, it's ok, a little rich down low but good and lean at mid/cruise which is common for this bike. I think you may just have missed a turn or too on that cylinder, reset the mixture screws on that puppy and see what happens. It's super duper rich if we're talking about the same plug.
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Yup #3 is the rich one. But what doesn't make sense is when I give it choke it starts to fire, aren't you adding more fuel when the choke is on?
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Well if all the cylinders look like the leaner one then your fine overall, maybe a 1/4 turn too rich, but don't touch the other cylinders for now. Hows the spark on number 3 compared to the other cylinders? Weak? Take the plug out and attach it to the lead then make sure it's touching the engine block and have a look. Then try number 4 as a comparison. Maybe the spark is weak. You're sure that number 3 has the same amount of turns as the other cylinders correct?
Maybe for fun turn the mixture screws in a half turn on that cylinder to see if the plug cleans up. It might be fouling and producing lower power, hence lower temps. That plug is super rich so it may be killing the combustion. Try a mixture screw experimentation. You can always set it out to where the other ones are. See what happens after experimenting with the mixture screw as thats the easiest fix then we'll go from there.
Other causes for later if it can't be fixed by mixture screws:
Worn emulsion tube,
Needle not seating.
Needle holder has popped out and needle just floating around loose in there causing crazy richness(happened to me once).
Pilot or mainjet worked itself loose, emulsion tube loose or bad o-ring.
Crazy float height, etc, etc.
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I've triple checked the pilot screws, they should be all the same. I tried the spark thing last night, but i didn't do a comparison so I'll try that. It's got to be simple so I'm probably overthinking it, or I've just got terrible luck.
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You could pop the top off and make sure the needle hasn't popped out of its seat. Happened to me once. There should be a plug attached to a spring with pushes on the needle to make sure its seated if that plug pops out it all goes to hell.
I agree with you it's got to be something simple since the other cylinders are perfectly fine correct? Pop the top cover off there and inspect the diamphram and needle assembly just to rule it out. If you've ruled everything out you can without having to pull the carbs. When you pull them just post and I'll walk you through a few suggestions to try while the carbs are off. At least it's only one carb thats the problem. You could try that float height trick as well just to see that 3 and 4 are sort of jiving in regards to fuel level without pulling the carbs.
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Yeah all the other cylinders seem to be fine. I'm gonna pop the diaphragm off tonight and check the float levels etc. I wish I wasn't at work right now, I just want to tear into it and get this problem sorted.
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Don't sweat it it could be as simple as the needle popping off or the emulsion tube loose or the emulsion tube o-ring pooched or loose jets or something. It literally could be like a 10 second fix or it could not but it's easier to try the 10 second fixes first at least to rule them out.
Hell when my needle plug popped off it was on carb number 1. I didn't have to even take the tank off, I just used a tiny ratchet that accepted 3/4 inch screwdriver bits and unscrewed the cap and popped it back in. I guess I phucked up and didn't seat it properly when adjusting the needles. If you get everything all hunky dory I would consider turning in the mixture screws a 1/4 turn to 3 turns out looks a little rich at idle and down low if that leaner one is what all the others look like.
If you look at the base ring there is full turn of colour but has some black soot on top of the colour and the tips of the electrodes are sooty and black. A little too rich on the mixture screws. Electrode is nice and clean but a little white, probably a little lean at mid-range and wide open throttle, but that will be fixed with jetting. Can be helped alot with a radio shack shim under the needle to richen that area a bit.
Actually just a quick question. When you got the bike did you drill out the mixture screw plugs or were they pre-drilled? You said that the screws were all over the place from 2 to 3 1/2. Was the carb that was only turned to 2 turns out number 3? What I'm thinking is maybe the previous owner was trying to set the mixture screws and maybe screwed the mixture screw in too tight on that cylinder and crushed the pilot screw needle so it's pumping out more fuel per turn than normal. So the equivalent of 3 turns for the other carbs may only be 2 for that carb. Just thinking out loud. When my plugs looked like that is when I had the next larger pilot in there and it was horridly rich down low but not that bad.
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The mixtures screws where drilled out by a mechanic when the previous owner took it in for service. I'm not totally sure which one was at 2 turns.
I did get a chance to look at the carbs again last night. Nothing seemed wrong with the diaphragms, so I pulled the carbs, and opened them back up. There was some more crud floating around in there but not too much. I cleaned them out blew some cleaner through the passageways and blew them out with compressed air. Checked the float heights again, after reading the manual like 6 times, they were all way off. Reset them to the recommended settings, and while I was at it I shimmed the needles, replaced all the screws with allen head bolts.
There was one problem though when attempting to remove the pilot jets on a couple carbs I found that whomever was in there last really marred them up to the point where the screwdriver wouldn't grab. They are all flowing so its not that big of deal right now, its just when I go to rejet I think i'm in for a world of hurt.
Well put it all back together and fired her up, she coughed, spit and backfired for a few seconds then came to life. Here's the kicker #3 was firing just fine right in line with the other cylinders, but #2 was missing, I almost kicked the bike over. I left the garage with her idiling and went to smoke a cigarette, when I came back in there was #2 coming back up to temp slowly but surely. There still is a small hiccup at idle but nothing too major. The hesitation coming off of idle is almost non existent now. Haven't rode it yet ( rain for the next 2 days ) we'll see what happens when I do.
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Awsome at least your making progress. Let it sit there idling for at least ten minutes with a rev every once and a while to bring it right up the check the temps and plugs. THey may be a little rich looking as it's just sitting there idling but if they all look the same your good, then just maybe a mixture screw adjustment. THey looked a little rich down low. If everything was kinda off you may have to bite the bullet and do another carb sync but for now just make sure they are all in the same ballpark. Do you remember the pilot jet size? Float height is important if it's wonky it will create problems, now that it's fixed you are probably good to go with maybe a minor adjustment.
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Pilot is 37.5 and the mains are 102.5. Yeah I have to see if I can borrow the sync tool again.
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The number 2 cylinder may have just needed some time to get the fuel back in all the bowls. The real test is riding. As far as those pilots go, that is a bummer. If you're going to do a stage 1 you can probably get away with using the same pilots as stock I am but I'm on a Gen2 bike. If you have to take them out crazily say with some vice grips to unscrew them they will be wrecked. however pilots are only $5 each it's more of a matter of can you get them out then replacing them. Once you start riding around you may have to turn the mixture screws in but I think your good.
If you really had to get them out and you don't care if they die in the process you could get a dremel cutting wheel and cut a flathead groove into the brass but that would be like a total emergency situation.
If you want just do this for syncing:
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.0
It works great!!!
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Still no ride yet but I let warm up a good bit and shot this video so you can see the progress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVDRiZfE0yg&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVDRiZfE0yg&feature=youtu.be)
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Sounds alot smoother!!!!! Don't fret too much about the differences in temps as when you standing on that side of the bike the IR sensor will have a harder time picking up the far cylinder. What I do with mine is measure at the front to make sure that it's sort of the same distance but that only would be when fine tuning. Since the float heights were kind of wonky when you synced it will also be a little screwy(you're a little bouncy on the tach at idle) but it's easily fixed and will sync the temps even more(inside temps will be slightly higher). Well I do believe sir you have a fine running Bandit.
You said you shimmed the needles one shim. Did you use the radio shack ones? Because it's sounding alot healthier than mine did stock before I adjusted the mixture screws and popped a shim on it like you. Wait until you pipe and jet it, then the fun really starts!
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Yeah I used the radioshack shims.
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Good job. The radio shack shims are the equivalent of 2 holeshot shims. That will really help in the mid-range alot where the stock jetting is the weakest. You may have to turn the mixture screws in a tad with the shims on there, but it sounds pretty damn good if you ask me. It shows you how important float height is, alot of people skip that step. Including the factory!! Mine were all over the damn place, so no wonder my mixture screws were weird, they were probably trying to compensate for all kinds of weird shit. 1 of my cylinders was like 12mm and another was at 15mm!! A far cry from the stock 13mm.
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UPDATE:
Well I have been riding it everyday for 4 days now, It does seem a lot better once it warms up. The idle is still pretty bouncy but I haven't resync'd it yet. The last 2 days have been the best it got real smooth at cruising speeds all of the sudden. When idling #2 still seems pretty lean, much higher temps than the rest, I'm hoping a sync will help that. While cruising I do feel a surge in the 3-4k range but that just could be my hand on the throttle. The clutch isn't slipping at all anymore even at full bore redline in 1st and 2nd gear, It is on the other hand getting soft after a while of riding, I'm having to pump the lever at lights to get it in 1st. I don't see any obvious leaks, and I bleed it about 10 times now. I was going to take the sprocket cover off and check the slave again.
I really wish I knew someone with a bandit that I could ride to compare, I have my uncle ride it when I do something to it, but he hasn't had a bandit in 10 yrs, so his memory isn't as fresh.
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Top up the hydralic fluid if necessary. If the microscopic bubbles have worked their way out it may need a top up and pump with the top of the master cylinder off to release the air. Just pump it a bit slowly(cover the paint in case) with the top off to let any air out of the system and top it up. As far as the carbs go, you may find at cold winter temps that it's a little lean, but before going crazy on the mixture screws I would do a carb sync first to make sure that all the cylinders are pulling the same then maybe try a 1/4 turn out to richen it up a bit if it's lean at cruise and down low. But before touching anything, make sure your synced otherwise your just wasting your time.
Just do the $5 poor man's sync, it works great and is fast.
Does the first gen bandit have clutch and brake adjustable levers? YOu could just adjust the levers to give yourself a bit more on the clutch lever.
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Just the brake lever is adjustable. I bleed it again didn't see any air bubbles. I'll just how it goes tomorrow on the way to work.
The poor mans sync was a disaster the last time I tried on my old kz, granted It was a giant piece of shit. But that's what you get when you buy a bike $100. I am just gonna wait until my boss brings his carbtune in for me to borrow, he keeps forgetting but he's my boss so its hard to be pushy.
On a side note what tires should I get from shinko 005 or 009. Mileage isn't that big of a issue seeing how they are so cheap, but at the same time I have been riding really easy lately because I don't trust the bike yet. So the 009's sound good, more mileage but less grip, but i know me and I will begin to ride that thing its supposed to be ridden so 005's sound good. I'm really confused. I can get either or for within $20 of each other.
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What the hell they are so cheap get both. Buy the sport ones in the summer so you can really test them and buy the sport touring ones when you ride the crap out of the sport ones. See which ones suit your fancy. We don't get shinkos up here so we have to buy the expensive ones but my friend owns a bike shop so I get them a dealer cost. I usually throw him $50 so I can use his tyre puller and he gives me a hand getting them on there. The best way is have the sport tires just for summer then for the rest of the year have the sport touring, then by the time they wear out it will be next summer then you can go back to the soft sport compound again.
If you don't feel comfortable with doing the carb sync jihad style then don't do it. They both will get you were you need to go. There is no "right answer".
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You do have a point.
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Well the carbs are coming off for a third time. I have fuel bypassing the needle valve, and into the crankcase. I was gonna go ahead and re-jet this time. Is it bad to rejet without doing anything else? I will eventually get exhaust, etc. What I'm asking is can I run it re-jetted on stock stuff without doing harm . I just bought the jets not a kit. 127.5 main 35 pilot.
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Well if you want to re-jet it just make sure you're using an aftermarket can with mid-pipe. The Dan Moto "me luv you long time" specials are probably your most economical option. If you jet it with the stock pipe on there it will be horridly rich. THis is the standard stage 1 for the first gen Bandits, maybe someone that owns a first gen can pipe up to confirm but this will get you close:
Aftermarket can with mid-pipe
127.5 mains
2" hole in the airbox lid
K&N filter
1 or 2 radio shack shims
As far as the needle valves needing attention I believe they are about $10-$20 each or so at least on the GEN2, they should be something similar on your bike. Is it only one carb thats leaking?
You can order them from these guys:
www.bikebandit.com
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I think you can get by without the midpipe, you'll need the slip-on & 2in hole.
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I'm not sure if it's one or more leaking. When I was syncing the carbs I was using the tank as my auxiliary and had the petcock on pri and there was fuel pouring out of the overflow. After I was done I checked the oil and it had a strong gas smell, and it was over full. I flushed the oil and filter, the next day I rode it for a while and then checked the oil it didn't smell gas. I figured it was the plunger on the needle so I ordered some rebuild kits. I was gonna rejet while it was apart but I guess I will wait until I have some more cash for exhaust. I'm just getting tired of taking the carbs on and off so many times. I am getting pretty fast at now though.
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I would get the mid-pipe. Since that is like %60 of the restriction on the bike. If you don't and just get an end can it will like putting a trumpet on the end of a drinking straw. Sure it might be slightly better but you're not getting the full effect. Considering a Dan Moto exhaust comes with a mid-pipe and costs less than most end cans there is really no reason not to get one. Hell if you wanted to you could just buy a high quality can to go onto the Dan moto mid-pipe later like some other guy here did.
If you don't I guarentee you those jets will be too rich. You might want to get some 125's or 122.5's if you don't put the mid-pipe on there, and you'll lose 5-7 hp. Before you buy the needle valves make sure you need them. Putting the bike on prime is letting the fuel flow full blast, it may have just overwhelmed the carbs. I usually get a 2 litre coke bottle and put maybe a half litre of gas in it. Then I poke a hole in the top and tilt the bottle up every minute or so with a tube feeding into the fuel line. That way your not flooding the carbs when syncing.
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Well I already bought everything, its no big deal I'll need everything eventually. I want to agree with you, about the needle valves it just makes sense. I was looking at the dan moto stuff it's such a good price but it seems so loud. I wonder how much of a difference the db killer makes, I'm sure the triangular one is quieter but I don't like the way it looks. Anybody use the Delkevic exhaust, they seem like they would be quieter with the added length.
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The delkelvic exhausts might be quieter. I have a Muzzy that seems like it's a sport touring model it's so long it's not too loud at all. Especially since I re-packed it last year. I only PAID $150 for it plus shipping. Maybe you could find the same one or something similar. It's nothing special but it's plain looking and doesn't have fancy doo-dads all over it which is fine for me and it came with a centre stand stop piece.
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UPDATE:
I know everyone is on the edge of their seats for this. I have been riding the bike almost everyday for the past couple of weeks. It's running pretty good, the idle is still a little lumpy but it pulls and the flat spots are very minor now. My secondary clutch problem has been fixed, it was a leaky fitting at the slave. I am gonna pull the plugs tonight or tomorrow and see what they say as far as rich/lean. I will post pics for advice.
I have also done some cosmetic / comfort modifications to the bike as well. I've gone naked and changed the bars to renthal ultralows. The bars made a world of difference as far as handling goes I feel much more confident while riding now. The extra width of the bars really help me as well I felt too crowded with the stockers, I'm not the smallest guy around. Messed around with front and rear preload and found a combo that works for me. Going naked wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was gonna be, maybe just because every other bike I have owned has been naked, ( harley, 80's kz650) now I never really rode them as hard or far as I do with the bandit. But I feel ok without any wind protection even at 110mph.
I also bought an exhaust from delkevic that should arrive on mon or tues. I gonna give it a go with out jetting and see how it goes, I'm still waiting on my rebuild kits to arrive and I dont want to go into the carbs until I have those, I know some o-rings need to be replaced.
here is the exhaust I bought http://www.ebay.com/itm/290610217372?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3730wt_1397 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/290610217372?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649#ht_3730wt_1397)
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Thats an awsome looking pipe man! and comes with the mid-pipe you should be happy with it. You can carb sync it the poor mans way and that will fix up the idle/weird running for like $5 in clear tubing.
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I did the poor mans sync finally and the idle is still lumpy. Better than it was but not perfect, it's gonna being raining all weekend so I might try it again.
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yeah no worries, if you're going to take the carbs off anyway once the new seals are on there it may clean up and be easier to sync anyway, you might have some slight leakage of gas in a cylinder or two which makes syncing a little weird. I'm going to sync the rest of the carbs this weekend as I could only do 2 as I didn't have some bent needle nose for those stupid vacuum nipples.
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WARNING PICS HUGE!!
Pulled the plugs they look about right to me maybe a little rich. Changed the dirty air filter to see if that helps. I just got an oem style replacement, no k&n.
#1
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5500/1331491288081.jpg)
#2
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6251/1331491382468.jpg)
#3
(http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/1051/1331491418361.jpg)
#4
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2144/1331491429314.jpg)
What do you guys think?
As a plus you get a glimpse of some terrible tattoo.
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You're running a bit rich, best out of the set is number 2 and 4. See how there is a lighter bit to the base ring? Thats how they should look, it needs one full turn of colour like that. Since the electrodes are pretty clean I'd say your rich down low. Try a quarter turn in on the pilots and a good carb sync and see how it goes. The reason it's lumpy is number 1 is super rich down low(sooty base ring and electrode tip) and the rest are fairly even though 4 is a bit lazy. A carb sync will help if any of the other cylinders aren't pulling their weight. Turn the screws in 1/4 turn and sync that should lean it out enough to get rid of the soot and even the pulling of the cylinders. Number 1 is basically doing most of the work and dragging the other cylinders along for the ride. So you get an abnormally stong push from number 1 cylinder then a weak ass push from the other cylinders so I'm assuming your bike would be like lumpity-lumpity-lump like a Harley than a smooth inline four. Maybe double check the float height on number 1 cylinder. If its good and it's still rich you can lean it out a tad by either turning in the mixture screw on that cylinder in or raising the float height a mm or so so it's not overfuelling. But before any float adjustments, turn the mixture screws in a 1/4 turn and do a good sync. It will probably unitize the cylinders a bit better.
When you're doing a sync concentrate on pairs. Do 1 and 2, then 3 and 4, then adjust the centre adjuster to sync the pairs together. Also once you have a pair synced give it a good wack on the throttle and let the throttle snap back to idle a few times so that it seats the adjusters on the stops then check again. You don't want it wandering after you've put the bike back together.
What jets(pilot, main) are you running and how many turns out are you on the mixture screws? Shims?
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My jets are stock 102.5 main 37.5 pilot, 1 radio shack shim and 3 turns out. I do have stage 1 jets waiting in the wings right now, just waiting on the rebuild kits still.
I did another sync yesterday and I was only really able to put about a 32nd-64th of a turn on anything, they were all pretty good, throttle blips and all.
I should have my exhaust today, do you think i should still turn them in or just leave it as is right now.
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Woah!! 3 turns?! Thats way too rich, the 1st Gen is like 1 3/4(stock, haynes manual) to 2.5 max with a stock exhaust. Maybe turn them in a half a turn and see what happens. It's possible that the radio shack shims are of slightly different thickness and number 1 has the thickest one. I measured mine with a digital caliper when I used them many moons ago to get the most even out of the set. Might be worth having a look. However a good sync should compensate for it a bit. If you want, exchange the shim from the richest cylinder(number 1) with the leanest cylinder(number 4) and see if the richness moves with it. If not then it's sync. If you have the aftermarket exhaust coming today then don't change it as 3 turns should probably be close to where you need to be with an aftermarket exhaust, although that may even be a little rich. Change the shims for fun with the richest to leanest and maybe it will even the cylinders out a bit more, but to be honest it looks like all low down richness to me from the mixture screws set out way too far. To give you an idea, the shop manual says they should be out 1 3/4 stock. So running well they should be around 2 in reality. With an aftermarket exhaust you might need at least half a turn or so, so start out around 2.5 and work up from there if necessary. Once you get the aftermarket exhaust and exchange the shims then do another sync as the flow of the engine will change a bit with a real exhaust on there.
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I will turn them in I was just experimenting. I did measure the shims they were all pretty even. The plugs were in there with a stock exhaust the aftermarket should be on my doorstep when i get home.
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Awsome let us know how it goes. You're going to be lean up top but just ignore it for now until you get some jets in there. You may have to compensate a bit with the pilots. If the shims are even then don't bother exchanging them. Hell don't change anything, and just pop that awesome exhaust on there and see what happens. It should be close with 3 turns out. It possible that there is a leaky o-ring on number 1 cylinder and some extra fuel is leaking in there. Bikes usually sit on the side stand so number 1 gets more fuel pressure just sitting there which wears out the seals more.
It's one of the best looking mid-pipes and end can's I've seen. Makes me feel dirty with my Muzzy.... :grin:
Also are you doing the sync the poor mans way or the fancy sync tool way? Believe it or not the poor mans way works better as it's a tug of war between pairs of cylinders, so they are either in sync or they are not, there is no error from a dial or a slide, it's just physics.
Best poor mans way, sync 1 and 2
Sync 3 and 4
Attach number 2 cylinder and number 3 cylinder(root carb) and sync between the two, that syncs the pairs 1 and 2 with 3 and 4.
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I got over my fear and am doing it the poormans way. I dont try to get them even just not moving. Is that right?
I hoping to leave work early today so I can get home and pop that bad boy on. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Yeah they don't have to be even just not moving up one side or the other. When they are out of sync you see one side climb and the other fall. Adjust so that they stop and you're in sync. Of course if it makes you feel better once you get them to stop you could either shut the engine down and let gravity level them then start it up again, or artificially adjust it to where they are more level which is what I do sometimes when I get it close so I can micro adjust it. Use motor oil it has a high viscosity and is cheap, they won't also be bouncing around as much and if you are slow on the kill switch it won't kill the engine or get hydrolock like water would. Turn the idle up a few hundred rpm to say 1400 or 1500 when your close which will agrivate any mal-adjustment. You'll be suprised how well it runs afterwards. Once it's synced and your good, then you can micro-adjust the mixtures if need be and re-sync because any artificial leaness or richness from a cylinder doing more or less work than the others is taken out of the mix. Make sure the bike is nice and warm first and have fun!
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What I ended up making was almost exactly like yours, but with 2 restrictors inline which help tremendously with the bouncing. I got the restrictors at the autoparts store doorman branded.
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Yours is even more fancy than mine so did you bust the bank and get up to an unimaginable $8? Damn you rich folks!
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it was $8.50, and I put it on a credit card.
:grin:
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If you want to experiment with something lighter to increase the accuracy you could try some 2-stroke oil. Since you have the restrictors in there it might not be a bad idea. Especially for you high rollers out there I'm sure adding another $3 is nothing to you!
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Well it's on and pretty gnarly sounding. It's got some backfire on decel but I assume that will be taken care of with jetting.It seems to climb up to redline pretty quick almost scary quick, I can't imagine what it's gonna be like with the right jetting.
Here's a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tyBvEQ2Ebg&sns=em (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tyBvEQ2Ebg&sns=em)
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Yeah with the new pipe on there the jetting will be slightly off. You're going to be lean so it will pop a bit, especially when it's cold out or you still have that horrid PAIR shit on there. Check the plugs after you've done some driving the 3 turns out you have on there may be very very close for a mid-pipe and end can. I've noticed in the video seems to be running a bit smoother now that it's not breathing from a drinking straw sized pipe. You probably gained about 5 ponies just with the pipe,shim and mixture screw adjustment. With the new jets K&N panel filter and the airbox mod you'll add another 10-12. The gen1's seem to get another hp or two over the gen2's, probably due to the RF900 carbs with the proper sized pilots and the K&N panel filter. For me with a stage 1 I'll probably be, though I have one notch bigger mainjet around 113-115, you'll be getting 115-117 most likely with the stage 1 setup. You can't complain about up to 17% more horsepower for less than $200. Trust me you're going to notice it.
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I did notice a good improvement mid range with the mid pipe and end can on the ride into work this morning. The idle is staying pretty even now still not fuel injection smooth but I don't expect that. Noise wise its not that bad it has a nice throaty sound, I ride with ear plugs so cruising is not an issue. Now i wouldn't say it super neighbor friendly. My neighbors aren't a-holes though I mean down the street there's a guy with what has to be straight pipes on his v-max. It has the baffle in now, I might ride tomorrow with out to compare. Quality wise it looks good the welds are nice, everything went together reasonably easy, took about 15-20 mins. Outstanding packaging I was worried about that, the muffler came in it's own foam surround, the mid pipe was wrapped in the most bubble wrap I've ever seen. Overall I am impressed so far, we'll see how it is down the road.
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If you're not hammering the throttle and just cruising down the street it shouldn't be too much over stock. My muzzy which is a 17" can(a little quieter) is not much more than stock just cruising around only when I have like full throttle acceleration does it sound like a race pipe. Put it this way you're going to be quieter than any Harley out there so just don't hammer it when you're on little streets and you should be fine. You'll notice though if you go by cars with alarms, they'll chirp from the vibrations. :grin: If you take out the baffle with the stock jets it will run leaner and shittier. Maybe wait until it's jetted, or just do a sound test for the hell of it and pop it back in. When jetted you'll want it out for all the power you can muster from that puppy. Remember there is no such thing as "too much power"
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Its still the quietest bike I've ever owned, previous bikes were a shitty ass harley with screamin eagle pipes, and a kz650 with basically straight headers.
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See how you feel. If it's totally insane without the DB killer installed, just get another set of mainjets one size smaller in case 127.5's are too rich with the DB killer in there. So maybe get some 125's. For someone who can afford a mind blowing $8.50 on fancy pants carb sync tools I'm sure another $12 can be financed over the month. One bike I had I blew the baffle right out of it so that it was a straight pipe on a GS750EF. It sounded awesome, but also like the end of the world. It sounded like a 70's GP bike though. Had to rig up a donor baffle and weld it in there at my friends bike shop.
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Only if i can get 6 months no interest.
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Well if you get the loan from a Greek bank in 6 months they'll owe you! Let us know how it goes.
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Well if you get the loan from a Greek bank in 6 months they'll owe you!
NO, No, youv'e got it backwards...that's how they handle debt...loans will be all the interest, plus 155% debt added to the loan on every new bailout.
They will have to pay back the ECB Somehow! :motorsmile:
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I got a good tip for you on an update to the poor man's sync:
Ok after a great deal of pain and suffering I finally got the extender on carb number 2 finally. It's now super easy to sync the bike up and I want to share a little tip with you guys which really helps out the smoothness alot. Since this guage is so accurate you can also fine tune your mixture screws as well. As we all know there will be microscopic machining differences, slide spring tension blah blah blah. Needless to say every cylinder will be just slightly different than the next. What you should do before the sync is go for a low throttle cruise around town, no full throttle 1/4 mile burnouts, etc ,etc just a nice leisurely cruise under 1/8th throttle to make sure the plugs are being coloured mostly with the cruise or pilot mixtures. This way when you take a look at them, you'll notice that some of them might be a little richer or leaner than others. Make a note. For instance my number 2 cylinder is a little richer than all the others which are very close to one another.
When you're syncing the pairs and have them pull nicely together at idle put a little pressure on the throttle and bring up the rpm a few hundred rpm, say to 1500 or 1600 or so an look at which cylinder is pulling more now. So you look at the super expensive top of the line guage you made and realize. "Hey when I give it a little throttle, number 2 pulls more, then they are the same when I release the throttle WTF!!!!!!". The reason for this is as the rpms come up slightly the mixture will lean out a bit, the cylinder which is slightly richer won't lean out as much and have slightly more power than the one that is leaner. So you have 2 options:
1. You can richen up the leaner cylinder to match the richer one
2. Lean out the richer one to match the leaner one
What your trying to do is pick the best out of the pair. Since my number 2 cylinder had a bit of soot on the base ring and my number 1 cylinder plug looked perfect I leaned out the richer one so that when light(I'm talking just pressure)throttle was applied, they were now pulling up together in sync. Just be careful of the mixture screws, especially with the accuracy of the guage, doesn't need much turning at all I think I turned like less than 1/8th of a turn more like 1/12th or some other fraction I can't calculate. A good way to test if all the pistons are pulling the same is to move along in first gear just above idle at like 1500 or something insane. A slight downhill may help here, you can actually at this low speed feel the pistons power pulses. If there is a slight push every once and a while and it's not smooth than chances are the cylinders are pushing at different power rates, governed by the mixture screws at that level. In my case I had a cylinder rich, but if you had a cylinder that was lean it would still do it, though maybe not as noticeable(check the plugs). In this way you can get a hyper accurate sync probably way better than any bouncy ass dial. Remember this is only for the slow speed/less than 1/8th of a throttle sync, which is where you're going to feel smoothness or roughness. At higher rpm/throttle, it doesn't matter as much although I would wager that having all the cylinders mixtures super close together is going to make the bike at ALL rpms ranges smoother.
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Well damn. Got home last night pulled into the garage shut off the bike, smelled gas. I was thinking there is no way in hell this thing is running rich with the new exhaust. So I pulled the plugs they all show lean, # 1 was still kinda dark down low but not as bad earlier. So I look at the overflow tubes of the carbs they are a little wet at the tips. Started the bike and they just start dripping like crazy. I rechecked the float heights with a tube on the drain of the float bowls they are all the same. So my guess is the damn needle valve or seat has given up on one or more carbs. I'm still waiting on the damn rebuild kits its been almost 3 weeks already. I really hate driving my truck, I just want this damn bike to run without problems. Ok vent over.
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Any idea when those rebuild kits are coming? If you want you could raise the float height a mm or two to compensate. Not the greatest solution but it would drive down the road.
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Just got off the phone with the supplier and they said they were going out the door today, so we'll see. If they do go out today I will have them tomorrow, as its 1 day ground shipping from them to me. I am pretty pissed about the whole thing really, it should not take 3 weeks to receive something that is in stock. Whatever you do do not buy from powersportssuperstore.com, they may be cheap but really flaky.
If my truck didn't get 13mpg I'd be driving up there right now to pick up the damn kits.
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I hear you man, even jetted I'm still getting around 40mpg mixed driving or so if I'm light on the throttle. I topped up my tank yesterday from just hitting reserve for 16.60, the gigantic SUV next to me.....$118! I could probably drive a couple of months on that going just to work and back.
Ive had great results with www.bikebandit.com they ship to Canada and I've ordered a bunch of parts from them and never seen them take more than a week. Maybe next time give them a shot. I don't think your saving too much but it's a no bullshit transaction and parts exchange. I even got parts for my 84 GS750EF still in the original packaging!
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I ordered my tires and a few misc. stuff from bike bandit and they were great. Its just that all 4 carb kits came out to $55 with powersportsuperstore and more like $100 on bike bandit, or anywhere else.
Well I started it up last night ran it around the neighborhood and there was no fuel coming out of the overflows, so I rode it in to work this morning still no leak. Maybe it fixed itself?
Oh $17 to fill up the bike $95 to fill up the truck, its terrible.
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Was your tank filled up to the tits? Maybe your petcock diaphram spring is a little weak and is not holding back the niagra falls of fuel delivery and it's creating seeping on your carbs. If you also put it on the side stand, Number 1 and 2 carbs will get all the fuel in the floats and fuel line pooling there which may seep it a bit. Park the bike on the centre stand next time for fun and see if the seeping or weeping goes away. If you can save those rebuild kits for when you really need them it would be a bonus. It also could be condensation when the hot engine and warm carbs cool it will create condensation on the metalic parts.
As far as vehicles go my Bandit is the only thing I drive. In the winter I usually just take the streetcar or subway. It sucks balls but at least it will get you there. I'm pretty jihad-like when it comes to riding in the winter. Usually I ride right up untill the second or third snowfall and am usually one of the first in the spring to be out the door. If this global warming stuff is real, which I hope, then I'm going to see about welding 2 coal powered Humvees in the backyard on a treadmill running 24 hours a day so I can get to ride all year. I'm sold on global warming I want it, how can I do my part? They keep saying it's comming and comming but the more I actually do any research on it the more it looks like bullshit and a way to squeeze more tax money out of the gulable. It's like a modern day snake oil sales pitch. Also climategate I and II leaked emails didn't help, but I wasn't suprised after doing my own research.
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1/4 tank. Side stand/Center stand no difference. I'm not gonna worry about it until I pull the carbs to rejet, hopefully tomorrow.
Oh I rode it no baffle it was so damn loud. My uncle rode it and I could hear him like 2 blocks away. I think i'm gonna leave it with the baffle, I think it still sounds good and mean.
Do you think I really need a K&N or can I get away with the airbox mod for now. I sure it will run a bit rich, but that's better than lean right.
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Well the jet size is designed for a K&N and a open exhaust with no baffle. However it will still work as you can adjust it enough with the pilots and shims to make it drive for like %75 of what your doing normally. Only the top end will be rich, I wouldn't worry too much about it, just know you may be losing a few ponies upstairs due to the slightly richer mixture. You'll probably be a point or two above what would be perfect but you can just pop the K&N on there later. If you're worried, order a set of 122.5's and 125's and experiment with them. Driving around slightly rich upstairs isn't going to do any harm, in fact thanks for contributing to global warming! I'm glad you're doing your part, now could you kindly start some tire fires in your backyard? It's cold up here. :grin:
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What I'll do for you is load up the bed of my truck with tires set them on fire and drive around.
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Thats even better!! Thanks!! Not only are you driving the gas guzzler, but you're spreading the love around town! You philanthropist you! :stickpoke: I'll turn my mixture screws out a 1/4 turn in your honour!
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Well I got impatient and re jetted without the rebuild kits, 127.5 main, 35 pilots, 3 1/4 turns out. The bike seems to be great at >1/4 throttle, runs like a bat out of hell. Down low I still got some surge, and the decel pop is still there. I did add the extra hole to the airbox, I wonder if I went too far. I pulled the plugs when I got to work this morning, I have a sooty base ring but the metal tip is pretty light colored. Tips, please.
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A sooty base ring is a sign of a rich condition, but now we have to figure out where. I know for the gen1 the recomendation is to actually go down one on the pilot while having a rich mainjet to make up for it. What is the condition of the electrodes? are they super white, also look way way down at the base of the electrodes. How large is the hole? I believe on the gen1 it should be 2 inches instead of 1.5 on the gen2. With the new pipe is the baffle in or out? Can you post a pic of the plugs?
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The hole is 2 inchish. The drill slipped on me whilst doing it. I'll post pics when I get back from lunch, I just taped the hole up a little bit to see what would happen. Oh the baffle is in.
It just seems lean to me because of the surging at little throttle input, and the decel pop I don't care about the pop so much as the surging.
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Well it could be rich up top with the baffle in like that(sooty base ring), maybe for fun take it out and go on a highway ride and see how the plugs turn out.
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The lunch run was better with the hole taped up some felt a lot smoother.
heres some pics
(http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/2313/spark2v.jpg).
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2720/spark3b.jpg)
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/9961/spark1k.jpg)
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Definately way too rich. If you notice, you see that about halfway down the electrodes they are totally black halfway down to the bottom. THat indicates that over half throttle to full throttle is way too rich. Down low where the white part is showing it's actually not too bad. I believe the "surging" is probably caused by the mainjet, or too many shims dumping fuel abruptly when you start climbing in rpm levels. It's like you're going from nothing to like full throttle then closing the throttle and going back to nothing again. The transition is too crazy so it bucks like a horse. THere are only 3 there but I'm assuming the other plug is the same. For fun take out the baffle to see if the plugs clean up a bit. How many shims do you have on there? Do you have a K&N filter on there? You're supposed to, if you have a stock it will look like that, way too rich. Also the tips look a little sooty as well but the top end is so rich it may just be overflowing into the pilot circuit fueling area as mains will affect down low as well slightly. For now I wouldn't adjust the pilots just yet I would concentrate on the problem area with is the mainjet, needle position. If you have a stock filter, get a K&N quick and take the tape off!
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stockish filter. I have a k&n coming. I've got .04 worth of shims. Damn Im pretty terrible at reading plugs I thought that looked good.
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Ok for now temporarily take the tape off, take a shim off so there is only one, and maybe take the baffle out. That will at least get you closer and not such crazy transitions between fueling circuits. That will probably help alot with the crazy bucking, also the plugs will clean up a bit especially if you take the baffle out of the pipe. I know it might be annoying but it's only temporary, you'll also get way more power. You may have to turn the screws out a 1/4 a turn to make up for some lost needle but you have so much mainjet its kinda crazylike. When you get it close with the K&N, baffle in or out, mixture screws, all that stuff then you can fine tune for smoothness.
It's probably running better with the tape on because its now richening up the lower throttle inputs so now it's drowning down low so the transitions wouldn't be as abrupt and it retarding combustion so the power is down as well. Also you'll notice the mixtures are all different which doesn't help the bucking, but down worry about that for now, once you get close to where it should be carb syncing will unitize the cylinders and it'll purr like a kitten. You may want to turn the mixture screws out 1/4 a turn AFTER you take the tape off, reduce a shim, blah blah blah.
Another alternative which is the easiest is take the tape off and the baffle out(increasing airflow) and turn the mixture screws out a 1/4 turn or just leave them. 3 and a half is probably where you should end up once the airflow issue is dealt with so you can go there now if you like it will reduce the transition abruptness a bit.
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baffle out, no tape, 3 1/2 turns out. 15 miles or so on the freeway home. All the plugs are pretty much the same.
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5241/1332455790600.jpg)
(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2773/1332455810814.jpg)
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3723/1332455824746.jpg)
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Way better! Still rich but getting there for sure. Same number of shims? It think you said 2? Once the K&N comes in it may clean it up completely. If you look at the second plug you see that ring that goes around the base ring? Its a full turn of that light colour but kind of gets sooty once it goes around the towards the ground strap. You should be shooting for a full turn of the lighter colour on that base ring. If it doesn't go all the way around one full turn you are too lean. It seems that you are good, maybe a little light on the needle, but the rich mainjet is making it a bit hard to read. But 100% better just look at them compared to the first set. Did you notice any more get up and go? You'll notice that once the engine breathes a bit better the plugs are starting to come together and not look so far apart jetting wise as any bottlenecks are disappearing the engine can now breathe better.
Now if having the baffle out is too much of a bitch or obnoxious, you can pop it back in once the K&N comes but you're probably going to have to go one notch leaner on the mains to 125's or whatever but see what happens when the K&N comes, better to err richer than leaner. You can always compensate slightly by going a little leaner on the mixture screws, lose a shim, etc, etc so at least its good for like %90 of what you're going to be doing with the bike, it's up to you. Those K&N's really breathe well so it might be fine with the filter popped in there, only one way to find out. To be honest with the baffle out it only really starts getting loud over 1/4 throttle which on this bike is pretty damn fast acceleration. Any normal type driving it's not going to be that much louder. That's why I went with a 17" can so I wouldn't have to worry about jetting around baffles with the loss of power, etc. To keep the noise down.
Also if you like you can really repack that can which will really quiet it up. Mine was kind of light on the packing from the factory. It's basically fiberglass insulation so it's easy to get, just stuff the hell out of the end can like I did and it really helps a lot. Of course you can get the "official" repacking material but even thats cheap. All you do is drill the rivets out, take of the end cap, stuff the shit out of it, I stuffed so much after wrapping it around the insert I had to tap it in with a rubber mallet. Don't worry too much about over stuffing it slightly as the heat and the pressure of the exhaust will shrink it down. The first time I re-packed mine after a few years, the stuffing looked like a tattered rag and the pipe was basically just a hole it wasn't even suppressing any noise at all. The packing material lost so much even over those few years that the insert was vibrating in the pipe. Also the bike leaned out quite a bit with almost no back pressure.
The best one is probably number 3, you can see it's starting to lean up a bit and the sootyness is starting to break up. What your shooting for is the lightest part of the base ring all round. If possible use that shooting angle and try to shine a light down to the base of the electrode so I can see how dark it is down there.
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Only took a month but I got them.
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1956/1332522547940.jpg)
I know what I'm doing tonight.
Back to the questions at hand. The ride home last night and this morning felt pretty good, a noticeable increase in power. There was very little bucking once fully warmed up. I'm going to do the rebuilds tonight and ride it without changing anything else and check the plugs again. I know that some o-rings are bad which I assume is gonna make it run rich as well. I should also have the K&N by the middle of next week. I think we are close.
I feel like I should send you some money rider for all the help. :thanks:
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Just drink some beer for me! The reason it was bucking was that there was too abrupt a change between the circuits. It's like trying to drive around normally at closed throttle then full then closed then full, a little exagerated but you get the picture. When the K&N comes it will probably get even better, see how that smaller pilot jet works out for you. I'm not sure why they would want you to go to a smaller pilot which affects smoothness at cruise. If it's only at 3.5 turns you probably have to about 4 turns before thinking that you may need to pop the stocker back in there but if the jetting calls for it test it with the default settings until you get a feel for it. Once the K&N goes in there you may have to bite the bullet if you go past 4 turns but I'm sure it will be fine at 3.5. All the circuits overlap a little bit so even if you had normal pilots in there and some super huge honking mainjet it would still spill over down low. Same with the needle, If the needle is super high and rich, even at idle it's going to spill a bit over into the pilots circuits area a bit. What you're shooting for is a smooth transition between pilots, needles and top end. Now with fuel injection you just set a variable in a computer so it's more precise. With carbs, its all black magic!!! Good to hear its coming together for you. With the rebuild and K&N it will be even better. Are you starting to feel the love of the Bandit?? :grin:
What you were doing before is compensating for a rich mainjet by leaning out the pilots too much. I've done that myself for testing purposes. For example yesterday, after looking at my plugs I figured my mid-range looked a little rich. So instead of wasting time with pulling the carb caps for possibly no purpose, I turned my mixture screws in a 1/4 turn artificially. I was popping all over the place and down low was weak but my mid-range got stronger. So today I put my mixture screws back and this weekend I'll take one shim off. As when the overall mixture was leaner, mid-range was better but top end fell off a little as the overall mixture was leaner. So obviously I'm going to have to take a shim off to preserve the low end and the top end goodness. However that being said. If taking off the shim at mid-range makes it even just slightly too lean in that area I'll put it back on as I said before better slightly rich than lean. Of course I could always have it at 4 shims for the summer and 5 shims for the winter but I'm lazy so if 4 shims isn't perfect all the way around I'll stick to 5 and just be slightly rich.
Maybe after the rebuild do a poor mans sync because if one cylinder was a little leaky it's going to change the jetting a little, some very small adjustment on the throttle sync screws may be warrented. Maybe while the carbs are off even redo all the mixture screws as well to 3.5 just to make everything 100% and set the float heights so you can start with a fresh clean slate. If some of the carbs were a little leaky it wouldn't help the smoothness any either so afterwards it may be running alot smoother, especially after a sync.
And remember, the most important part of any job: beer.
What your shooting for in the plug colour on the base ring is see that lighter area on the base rings? It should be that colour all the way around the plug, if it doesn't go all the way around then its too lean. Now this only shows overall jetting there are other signs that are there but this is the most important to get you close. Just as a note I'd say the first plug of the lot is probably the slightly leaky one as the tip of the electrode is noticeably darker. Some extra fuel is getting in there at low rpm and throttle ranges which is making that cylinder slightly richer than the others which doesn't help the smoothness any. If you wanted to save a buck or two just rebuild that carb, but it's better to rebuild them all at the same time and readjust them all even for the sake of knowing when they were all done a few years down the road. Good luck!
To think this thread started out because you had a slipping clutch! LOL
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Well I must say 4 shims worked out quite well for me, definitely a boost. But if you notice pmackie I haven't changed the overall mixture of the bike I'm just changing the curve in which it's delivered. For example. I went with the 110's originally in my holeshot kit and the 17.5's and it drove like shit. Horribly rich down low and lean at the top. I know it works for like %90 of the people out there but for me it didn't. Ok so what I did is move the extra 2.5cc's of fueling up top where it belongs and instantly the bike drove better. However the original 5 shims(which is alot) was tailored towards the leaner mainjet. Once a larger mainjet is installed it's just too much needle, as the fuel curve is more situated at the top so too much fuel comes on too soon. So I went one down on the shims to reduce the amount of fueling at the mid-range and over 1/4 to under 3/4 throttle inputs so now not only do I have more power but the bike is driving a little smoother as well because the transitions between the fueling circuits isn't so abrupt. I may even go down one more shim to see if there is more improvement but if its good only when super hot, then I'll stick with the richer needle setting so I can set and forget. That way when winter rolls around I won't be adjusting needles to keep the power on. Here is a little chart of what I've done that may help you out on your bike:
Ok I first had:
110 mains
17.5 pilots
5 shims
total fueling 127.5cc's per min max
too rich down low, heavy needle to compensate for lean mainjet. Crap pickup especially when hot.
Now:
112.5 mains
15 pilots
4 shims
total fueling 127.5cc's per min max
Richness down low gone, nice and crisp throttle. Getting scared past half throttle.
As you can see the total amount of fuel is the same I'm just moving it to where it's needed.
So lets take a look at your bike. It's kind of hard because I'm not riding it but based on the plugs and what you've told me so far:
Your settings as I understand them:
Baffle now out(thank god)
127.5 mains
35 pilots
3.5 turns out
2" extra hole in airbox
stock filter
2 radio shack shims(4 holeshot equivalent)
My GUESS<<<<-----important
pilots good or maybe a touch lean, not enough airflow to justify mainjet size, because of larger than normal mainjet, too much needle for mainjet. Cause abruptness with fueling circuits. Possible o-ring induced leakage on number 1 cylinder due to sootier electrode tip.
Conclusion:
More airflow or leaner jetting needed. Richness is robbing power especially over 1/4 throttle. Lethargic mid-range and top end due to fueling coming on too much and too soon.
Solution A:
Increase airflow(K&Nfilter)
Repair fuel leak and re-adjust float heights and mixture screws.
Adjust needle for increased airflow, should be ok with current setting, re-evaluate after airflow issue dealt with.
pilots seem ok at current setting re-evaluate after too little airflow issue solved
Solution B:
Decrease mainjet size, one possibly 2 sizes
decrease needle setting, one shim should be ok, or adjust based on mainjet size
repair fuel leak and re-adjust float heights and mixture screws.
pilots seem ok at current setting re-evaluate after too rich mainjet issue solved
So as you can see there is more than one solution here since we've already determined that you're going with option A(the better solution). Just hang tight until that K&N comes in then you can adjust as necessary. If you want to test before hand or don't want to wait. Try taking 1 shim of the needle, that will at least help below 6000 rpm and under 1/2 throttle inputs. If you have any questions while you're rebuilding the carbs just post here I'm too burnt out from this hell week to go out and party. I'll just stay home and dick around a bit on the internet I have it so the thread alerts me when a response comes up so I'll probably get back to you shortly if you need any help.
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Damn I'm having a hell of time with the carbs. I put the kits in and did a test by filling the float bowls with gas and had a leak, so took them apart again fixed the leak checked the float heights again, what a pain in ass that is btw. Put the carbs on the bike gave it a good warm up it ran just ok. I then tried to sync them again they were off a hair, got everything pretty close. My idle is still a little jumpy 100-200rpm jump or so. While syncing I was getting a little fuel coming out of the overflow, so the damn needle valves still aren't working. I need to give it a good run to really see what's up with it, I am almost at the point of giving up though. It's just so frustrating the damn carbs are such a bitch to get out. I did pull the plugs and they are showing pretty rich right now but it was just sitting there idling with weird fuel flow, from the aux tank.
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Ok I know its frustrating, lets step a few steps back shall we? 1 step at a time. Ok so you got the rebuild kits and they are 100% for the RF900 carbs correct? It is possible they may have sent you the gen2 carb rebuild kit by accident. I'm not trying to be condescending in the least, I'm just trying to figure out what exactly is going on. Ok so you put in the rebuild kit no probs as you obviously know what you are doing, so let's trace back. When you were replacing the parts one by one did you notice any differences in the parts going in and parts going out? Was it a part for part exchange or did you change the entire set all at once? Do you still have the old parts to compare as a comparison to what you've just popped in there? Did some parts "just not feel right" when they were installed? Sometimes the smallest detail is the most telling. Also with an auxiliary fuel tank the fuel is just pouring in there with no regulation from the vacuum petcock so that may not be the best test. What float height are you working with? Any gasket kit will need a little "burn time" to get the appropriate gaskets swelled up to seal properly so let's take it one step at a time so we can sort it out. The reason you're getting a 100 rpm small jump is that there is a gasket or o-ring in one of the carbs not sealing properly and basically it's letting a droplet of fuel through which is then sucked into the cylinder and increases rpm that tiny amount. Now that the gaskets are new they will need a little time to set to seal properly, it may not be as bad as you think. When they are exposed to gasoline the o-rings and gasket will swell slightly, as a time factor it's anybody's guess but I don't see it going over a day or two before everything is settled. What do the plugs say? Since they are new gaskets and haven't been broken in, as well as the un-regulated dumping of fuel from the axillary tank, they are going to read rich. Is there one cylinder that is richer than the others?
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Well. The kits were definitely right, all the parts matched up. I did one carb at a time and everything went together just fine. I have put on about 40 miles or so since doing it and it seems ok i guess. The float height might be the culprit im thinking. I am using 14.7mm per fast larry's site. In the clymer manual I have it says from like 13.6-15.3, so the 14.7 must be what works for most people. I think i'll wait until I get the k&n before I pass anymore judgement. Ill get some pics of the spark plugs in a little while. Oh and to make matters worse I put new tires on yesterday so the bike feels a lot different now.
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1-4
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8499/1332775113871.jpg)
super rich
(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2636/1332775127354.jpg)
better
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/2351/1332775140452.jpg)
ehh
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1436/1332775154158.jpg)
decent
Ok I thought I would do a 1/4 turn in on 1, maybe an 1/8 on the others?
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Yeah you could try that, you might want to wait for the K&N, but the best way to do the mixture screws is let it idle for a min or two and then pull the plugs, then you know 100% you're just dealing with the pilot screws, they will show rich, but don't sweat it just make sure they are even.
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just got the tracking on the filter should have it thurs. I'm gonna do the screws just for the phuck of it, I like seeing what happens when you change things.
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Sure why not, you can always turn them back. They aren't looking that bad at all just need some more air, with the K&N in there that problem will be solved. If you get your plugs to number 4 without the black smudges you'll be good.
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put the k&n in and now I have a pretty bad stumble off idle, and when giving it a handful of throttle it bogs down pretty bad. It died on me twice when leaving lights this morning. Thats too lean right?
EDIT: Nevermind im and idiot I didnt get the airbox lid all the way fulsh when i put the filter on.
EDIT EDIT: I was wrong its still doing it with the airbox seated right. I had to cover the 2nd hole i made up to get it not to die on medium throttle input. what do yall think?
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Lets take a look at the plugs. Maybe turn them all out to 3.75 for now just to giver her a little more juice. Since you went DOWN on the pilots you pilots are actually leaner than stock. You may have to pop in the stockers again. I know it says in the kit to go down on the pilots, I'm not sure that would be a good idea until you try it. Another option is to stick the DB killer back on there which will increase the back pressure a bit and richen it up.
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extra 2 inch hole covered, snorkel out, db killer installed 3 1/2 turns out. 15 miles pretty aggressive highway riding (90mph+).
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1659/1333149321789.jpg)
#1
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/8136/1333149336357.jpg)
#2 not as light as it looks pretty tan
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2654/1333149352126.jpg)
#3
(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/9424/1333149372431.jpg)
#4
They all look pretty tan all the way to base of the ceramic.
It did run pretty good on this set up, wheelies pretty easy. Feels pretty smooth with most throttle postions, super light throttle is still a little jerky.
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Your plugs, while still being a little rich look alot better. If you this sort of combo would serve you better, it's best to jet around this combo. It looks like the mainjet is a little rich. Maybe a step down 1 would clean up the plugs and make the transitions between fueling circuits not so abrupt which will smooth everything out a bit. Number 1 is still a little rich, did you turn it a 1/4 turn in compared to the others, it would smooth the bike out alot that the reason it's a little jerky. Had the same problem with number 1 have it almost 1/4 turn in from the others and bike is smooth as silk and plugs look identical. How many shims? Looks a little rich in the mid-range, hard to tell light so bright going down one on the mainjet would help cure it though. Its up to you, looks a little rich to me but if it drives ok might be better to put up with the richness up top. I think to be honest if it was me I wouldn't have gone 1 down on the pilot since that's the most critical to cruise smoothness I guess you could pop in the stock to find out. If I was going to stick with this combo you have I'd probably go one or even two down on the mains and maybe pop the stock pilots in there. If you pop the stock pilots in there you may be able to open up the 2" hole and get some more ponies out of her with the same mainjet. Up to you but your within 1 or 2 sizes of being good. Very close now.
A good test if you so choose to do it would be this:
pop in stock pilot untape 2" hole, try and adjust for it. If still too much air, maybe keep DB installed
Keep stock pilot in there, cover hole go down 1 or 2(most likely on mains) or keep mains and try with DB killer OUT.
A good simulation is take out the DB killer with the hole taped up and turn the mixture screws to 3.75 or 4 if necessary to keep the fueling up. If still too rich maybe untape half the hole or all of it. At 4 turns out your in the same league as the stock pilots(37.5) at the stock setting(2.5 turns out). After 4.25 though the screws lose alot of accuracy. Another test is do the same thing but untape the hole and keep the DB killer in. Since you have a short pipe it's going to flow alot so even withthe DB killer in there you're still going to get lots of power. THe way I see it is that your mainjet is probably perfectly fine with the DB killer in and the hole untaped, however your pilots are weak(hence the off idle stumble). Try this before anything. Take the tape off, keep the DB killer in there and turn the mixture screws out to 4 turns which is a whole half turn from what you have now and see if that helps. If not you can go to 4.25, then it's up on the pilot. You will get more power out of the untaped hole then with it taped if the pilots can give enough fueling. Don't worry too much about smoothness yet we just want to see raw power. My guess is if you went back to the stock pilots at around 3-3.5, untaped the hole and kept the DB killer in you'd probably be spot on.(also the cheapest solution since you already have the stock pilots). You're doing awesome don't give up on us now! :grin:
Edit: Oh sorry, if you need to clean up the low end because of the leaner pilots, put the snorkle IN but untape the extra 2" hole, that way it's just a step of extra air, not two steps. Also the snorkle in will smooth air intake especially at low rpms. I know with GEN1's they recommend snorkle out but since you have low end leaness/smoothness issues sometimes just putting in the snorkle with smooth/slightly richen the bottom end out, especially since you have a really free flowing exhaust. But if you do pop the snorkle back in the tape should be OFF. Just this alone in conjuction with the 2" extra hole and a mixure screw adjustment may solve your down low leaness issues. Sorry my bad, I just picked up you had the snorkle out(duh on me).
Edit2: After taking another gander at your plugs, I believe I see some sootyness about halfway down the plugs to the bottom. It's kind of hard to see because I don't have the plugs in my hand. You did an excellent job of taking the pictures however there is nothing like having it in your hand for viewing. This re-inforces my belief that you are lean on the pilots but rich on the mainjet/needle. If you look at the top of the electrode you can see that it's very white(lean pilots) and about halfway down or just under you start seeing lots of colour(too much mainjet). So I think that what I was suggesting, take the tape off and richen up the pilots may help you out, especially in larger throttle openings. Maybe it might be worth it to give it a try.
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Well I did some testing on Saturday, I turned the pilots out to 4 and put the snorkle in, untaped hole, still pretty bad at low openings, and there's no whacking the throttle open it hangs at about 3k before it powers through. I taped up about half the hole and it was better, but not great. Taped up a little more, then it was fine at low throttle and powered through the rpm range. Took it on a good highway ride and after a while it started to feel "soggy", like when putting on the power there was a slight delay and it wasn't quick to speed up, and it smelled rich as well. I think my best bet at this point is too put the stock pilots back in, the bad part is that they got destroyed when i took them out, so I have to order more. Damn I don't know why my bike is the damn exception to the rule but its looking that way.
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Remember once you pop the stock pilots in the equivilent turns would 1.5 turns in compared with the leaner pilots to get the equivlient mixture. For example if you are at 4 turns out with the 35's that would be 2.5 turns out with the 37.5's, equivilent.
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do you think maybe im just lean in the mid range?, its fine until i get to about 3k or so. Ill try and do a video of what im talking about when i get home. I don't know im just thinking out loud really. I've got 2 shims right now for a total of .040. I just don't get why mine is so different than the majority.
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Here's a quick video it's the bogging down when opening the throttle quickly that I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHvkUema2I8&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHvkUema2I8&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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Definatley lean. You could try adding a shim which would add some juice when hitting the throttle. Good video really helps. Add another shim and see how it goes. The equivilent you are using is slightly less that what holeshot is using so adding a shim may fix it right up.
If you do add a shim you may ironically have to reduce the pilots screws a bit but I doubt it you're already leaner on the pilots than stock they should be fine at 3.5 or whatever you have them at.
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Well I may have found a combo that works. I taped the hole up and then drilled 10 3/8's holes, put the snorkel in, pilots at about 3 1/4 for the moment. Bike is running really well, pulls hard through the whole range, no hesitating or surging. Feels like a different bike. I'm gonna pull the plugs after my ride tomorrow, I kinda don't want to pull them just in case they don't look right.
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If that works for you keep it. Not every bike is the same. The jetting suggestions are only a guideline so you're not ordering 20 set of jets to find out yourself. If want to make the airbox less ghetto, just order a new lid and reproduce the holes like you have then it looks more professional. I'm not sure about the gen1 but a new lid for gen2 is only like $35 or so. It sounds like you're close, so maybe just adjust slightly around this combo of it works for you. The beauty about the little holes is if you're a little rich, try another hole, etc. The snorkel will help smooth the air especially down low. You want it slightly rich anyway so you're fine.
What I would do is butcher the airbox lid however you want to and have a spare, so after you've done experimenting you can say "OK I need x 3/8" holes in my airbox." Then on the new lid drill the number of holes necessary. Hey get creative, put them in a diamond formation or a square or parallelagram or make a happy face, go nuts! If you drill one too many holes is easy to tape up so you'll know exactly how many you need.
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still experimenting, been noticing some surging at tiny throttle openings like 1/8th opening. Turned the pilots out a touch we'll see how that goes. Added another hole, it was seeming like it's a little wet at full throttle. I still have a fair amount of burbling through the exhaust when I shut the throttle. This post is a little rambly but you get the idea right?
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Sorry about that last post I was completely drained from the day, I just felt like I should give an update.
I got some pictures for you Its just 1 and 4 as they are the easiest to get to(no one will notice that I'm not actually working).
The base rings seem to be cleaning up nicely, they were much worse a few days ago. Inside around the ceramic still seems pretty dark to me, I guess I might need another hole.
Well anyways here's some pics.
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3114/1334153152698.jpg)
#1
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9520/1334153170567.jpg)
#4 there is a flashlight shining on this one.
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They are looking alot better. More holes McDuff!! :grin: If you go one hole too many just tape it up, count em out get another lid and make it look pretty. I'd say you're pretty damn close. What are your settings at this point? I can tell your mixture screws are dead on. Need a little more air for the mains. Timing looks good as well.
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Well after a little poke from rider123, I'll give yall an update. I didn't want to bother everyone with my little tuning nightmare, its been one step forward two step back kinda of a deal.
As of today the bike is running pretty well, I have 16 3/8's holes in the airbox with the snorkel in. 127.5 mains and 35 pilots 4ish turns out. The bike pulls hard at 5k and above, the low end still feels pretty sluggish, like its rich but when when I turn the pilots in the lean surge becomes unbearable. It is totally rideable ( only put 15 miles on my truck in the past 3 weeks ), I can easily ride outside of the bad range, but I would really like to have everything perfect or as close as I can get. I did add a spacer at the top of the slide spring to make it a little stiffer and that helped smooth out the sudden lean spot when giving it a handful, its still not gone but its less noticeable. I have tried a more and less shims on the needles and nothing seems to make it any better, except 3 shims but then I get about 20mpg. I am only getting about 32mpg right now which is fine with me. After a week or so riding at the settings I have now I resync'd the carbs and they were way off again, smoothed out again after the sync.
Rideablity is my main goal of course but I do have the more power bug now, the bike just doesn't scare me nearly as much as it used to. Freeway riding is fine as long as your above 4k. Traffic is terrible, 1st and 2nd gear are super jerky, just cant find a happy spot in those gears. I am really tempted to get a wideband so I can really tell exactly what is going on during certain riding conditions. I don't think i'm going to get much better than it is right now with out buying a kit, so i get better needles, I have a feeling that's where most of my problem lies. I am gonna have to ride it as is for a while, I cant spend anymore money on it for a while. Sometimes I wish I could just ignore the problems like most people do. Overall though I am pretty thrilled with this bike, I don't want to sound like i'm bashing it, I still enjoy riding everyday that I can.
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Sounds like the the pilots are a little weak. If it's "jerky" at small throttle settings it's generally the pilots are a little weak. Do you still have the stock 37.5's kicking around? It might be worth to pop them in give them a shot it would definately smooth things out down low. The reason it smooths out alot when going with a crazy amount of shims(3!) is your dumping so much from the mains that it's compensating for the lean pilots so even if you had the leanest pilots in the universe it still would smooth things out.
The best thing you could try is pop the larger pilots in there, it will be 1 1/2 turns less than you have now to be at the same level. Maybe even reduce a shim on the needles and see how it goes. If you're pulling awsome past 5K your mainjets and probably your needles are fine. Once you pop in the larger pilots you may need to take a shim off but that's about it. Since it's a very easy job it might be worth a try.
So say you have you mixture screws right now at 4 turns out. If you pop in the 37.5's you should start around 2 1/2 turns out and work up from there. Go back down to 2 shims if you are on 3 and see how it goes. You may end up with only 1 shim on there with the richer pilots. If you have lean pilots but crazy rich needle settings then it will go from super lean to super rich and things get a little wonky. What you want to do is spread the fuel delivery a little more evenly between the pilots and mains. You may be pulling too much fuel with the shims at 2(hence it driving better with a spring shim) to compensate for the lean pilots. So if you up the pilots, you may not need to pull so much on the needle to get good power and can go to 1 shim without the spring shim in there.
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If I can get the other things done that I need to tomorrow I'm gonna throw in the larger pilots and see how it plays out. I did do a test the other day were I took the baffle out of the muffler to compare, I will say it does seem to run better without it, It could just be mental though.
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Well it should breath alot better without the baffle. In fact if you put the larger pilots in I would recommend tuning it with the baffle out for max power. You'll thank yourself later. Just looking at the plugs tells me your close but a bit light on the pilots(a bit too white close to the tips). Give them a try with the baffle out I'm sure it will be perfect.
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Well, after a good talk with rider on the phone I have made some progress. Put in the 37.5's and rode if for a couple of days, the midrange seemed a little mushy. So I pulled the spring spacers I made off, didn't really feel much a difference there, so I pulled one shim off and that seemed to help a lot. The transition from pilots to needles is a little lean now I feel. I was going to turn out the mixture screws another 1/4 turn to see if that clears that up.
I did re-sync the carbs after the pilots got changed, but my idle is still pretty messed up, not steady at all. I think that my carbs hate stock pilot jets, Its about the same as it was in the beginning, little dips sitting at lights. It is almost like I have a vacuum leak, but I cant find one.
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After you get it running well generally, what you can do is go for a longish ride then go park it at home on the centre stand, let it idle there for a min or so once warm, then take a look at the plugs, it could be that one of your cylinders needs a slight turn out or in on the mixture screws, ie my number 3 cylinder is slightly leaner than the rest so a quick 1/12th of a turn out brought it in line with the other cylinders.
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you think the 15 mile ride home from work is enough?
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Easily, depending on the temps a put around for 15 mins should be enough to warm it up enough to check. To be safe a half an hour is better.
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well I pulled the plugs and 2,3,and 4 all looked a touch lean, so i just barely turned them out. I also re-sync'd the carbs again. I took a good long while doing it this time, the idle is almost dead smooth, almost. I am fine with it now. There seems to be a slight lean spot in the transition to the needles but its not bad at all. I think I will just tape a hole up and that shoud fix it.
This topic has come full circle now though because I have clutch problems again, but its from the power now, I slipped the clutch a couple of times in 3rd when I hit redline. :grin:
I am gonna say that this case is closed....for now at least, I know I will be doing stage 2 sooner or later.
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sorry to interrupt,
rider I am having tuning issues also, was going to buy a gunson colourtune? any good?
Rob
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I've never used one because I'm a cheap bastard I just rode around at the throttle level I needed to test and look at the plugs. However I'm assuming a colourtune would make it easier then hell and probably a hell of a lot more accurate then the eyeball method. Buy one and tell us how it goes.
From what I gather you're supposed to make the idle mixture a nice bunsen burner blue. However making the idle mixture "perfect" may lean it out once going above idle.. Maybe make it "perfect" to test then turn out the screws an 1/8th and see if you get more power. Slightly rich may be better, just make them all the same. Also sync will affect it as well.
I recently unitized the mixtures on my bike after I got them at a excellent baseline.
For example:
number 1 cylinder: 3.5
number 2 cylinder: 3.75 on the nose
number 3 cylinder: a hair over 3.75 turns
number 4 cylinder: 3.75 on the nose.
As you can see they are slightly different but they are all within a 1/4 turn of each other. I'm getting a little perfectionist but with a colourtune it makes it even easier. Maybe start a new thread and invite by PM to it and I'll try and help you out. Mpatrick had crazy tuning issues but we were able to help him out. I've been away for a while sorry.