Needle valve seat o-rings

[br1ev8]

Hi all. First post. Been reading the boards for a little while and now have a question. I picked up an '02 1200 with a fuel leak problem. Fuel is making it's way into all cylinders while bike is off. The vacuum petcock was bad, so replaced with a manual Pingel. Now, I found the needle valve seat o-rings are leaking as well. Question is where can I source just the o-rings, without having to buy a new needle valve/seat replacement (expensive) or a whole carb rebuild kit, just to get the little o-rings? I've tried searching the board and the web, but havent had any luck yet.

[rider123]

Welcome to the board!

Are you sure the needle valves are still good?



The needle valves shouldn't be indented see diagram:

Good:

      /\
     /  \
    /    \
   /      \

Bad:

      /\
     /  \
    I    I
   /      \


As far as O-Rings go if you can take out the old one and go to Rona or Home Depot and match it in the rubber O-ring bins you should be good. Even very close will probably do it as they are rubber and will stretch or compress a bit. Hell I even replaced that crazy ass small carb cap o-rings with a home depot one for like .25 cents. They have a ton in sizes smaller than that carb cap ring up to like inches around for plumbing check out a Home depot near you. It doesn't have to be an "official" Suzuki one as long as it works as doesn't leak. Put it this way:

Carb cap o-ring at home depot like .25 cents WITH tax

Carb cap o-ring from a Suzuki dealership $3.99 and two weeks waiting.

Both work fine you choose.  


I'm assuming you mean #20 on this Microfiche:

http://www.bikebandit.com/2005-suzuki-gsf1200-s-z-bandit/o/m17389#sch553859

At bike bandit you're right it comes as an assembly so chances are the dealership will do the same as bike bandit but charge you even more. 25 cent washers at Home Depot are your friend! If you are in the States I'm sure a Pep Boys will have some for dirt cheap, In Canada where I live if you go to the nuts and bolts section of Canadian Tire there are bins and bins of assorted O-Ring sizes.

[br1ev8]

Thank you for the replay, I appreciate it.  Yes, the o-ring on # 20 of the microfiche is what I need.  My needle valves look really good, however the needle valve seat o-ring does not; they pitted, shrunk, and dry-rotted.  The valve seats had practically no resistance when removed.  So, Home Depot huh?  Though, are these o-rings "fuel rated"?  Do they have some that aren't gonna break down from fuel exposure?  If so, I've got Home Depot and Lowes nearby to check.

[rider123]

Yeah they should work fine. My 25 cent O-Ring has worked for the last 3 years. So far so good. If you're worried go to like Pep boys or some other Automotive store to get an official O-ring rated for gasoline but chances are it's the same O-ring only a couple of bucks more, considering that real rubber is hardly used at all it will be a synthetic rubber anyway. Even if they aren't "officially" rated for fuel they will still last a couple of years minimum before leaking so either way they will work.  If you want you could get a slight oversize so if they shrink they will still be tight at .25 cents a pop hell buy a whole selection and experiment.

Was the bike left a long time with the floats drained? That will dry rot them eventually. Although the o-rings did last almost 10 years so you got your use out of them. How many miles are on the bike? If it's unusually low you may have some minor problems from lack of use(dry rotted O-rings) to semi-major problems such as some weak valve springs due to some of them being compressed for so long. Even with some weak springs it's easy to fix but a bitch as you have to take the head off. Might be worth doing a leak down or compression test for fun while it's still winter. While you have the carbs off you can check the float level it should be 13mm. You can also do yourself a huge favor and drill out the mixture screw plugs if not already done.

Is it jetted? Does it have an aftermarket pipe? You can unleash an extra 10-15 HP with just a few changes like a slip on and a modded airbox and some jets. If you already have the carbs off we can help you with jet selection so you can get 15 hp more and fix the carbs at the same time. !!!!DO NOT BUY A DYNOJET KIT FOR YOUR GEN 2 BANDIT!!!! Sorry had to put it in caps. For the gen 2 Bandit(2001-2005) the Dynojet kits suck cock. Don't go through the pain one poor guy went through here before talking to us and he got so fed up he actually sold the bike after spending all this money on the kit and paying someone to install it after he just bought it. Not fun at all.

[br1ev8]

So, I went to 4 different places for the o-rings.  Best I could find were o-rings with a cross section of 2mm's, which ended up being too big.  I just ordered 5 different sizes of nitrile o-rings online, so I should hopefully have the correct ones soon...I'll update with what works.
I bought the bike from the original owner.  He put a little over 16k on it, and he said it did sit from time to time.  I think that's what got to these o-rings, but I don't think it sat long enough to wear on the valve springs.  The bike ran great, made great power, etc.  Just had this fuel leaking into the cylinders issue.  So, I yanked the carbs out, but was planning on pulling them anyway, because I do have slip-on coming in and was going to re-jet it.  I was reading up on the jet kits and was planning on going with the Ivan's kit.  I've never re-jetted, so I'm sure I'll have questions later about it. 
Thank you for the tips, I appreciate it.

[rider123]

Sure no problem. Yeah 16K is very low but not too low. However it probably sat more than hes leading on but not enough to kill valve springs. I can almost wager that dry rot happened when he either stored the bike with the floats dry or through natural evaporation an extended period of time.

What I do in the winter is fill the tank up to full to avoid having airspace for water condensation. Then put stabilizer in there. Go for a 20 min ride to make sure the stabilizer hits the bowls, then store the bike with the battery in there on the centre stand. Every 2 weeks to a month in the winter I start the bike and run it for a min of 10 mins to charge the battery and keep the fuel flowing and not getting stuck in the carbs. Run it for at least 10 mins so the oil gets hot enough to boil off any condensation. Don't worry you can sit there and rev it on the centre stand it will be winter so there won't be an overheating issues. Shut it down. Come spring I just pump up the tires and start it up and go as it's been semi-running over the winter.

Alot people will tell you to remove the battery however the battery is a gel-type and sealed so it's not really necessary unless your wiring harness is phucked and eating battery juice. On the old style distilled water filled ones it kind of made sense so it wouldn't freeze but it's not necessary anymore otherwise people wouldn't be running their cars in winter. Just put some grease or Vaseline on the leads and you're good to go.

If the O-Rings are slightly too fat you can trim them down yourself with nailclippers if you're desperate to get her running.

[br1ev8]

Wow, never thought about nailclipping o-rings down. Good to know if I ever needed a quick fix. Im not in a hurry to get it done, it's gonna be down for a bit while I re-jet and do the exhaust and some other stuff. Though, hopefully, it won't be down for too long. live down in Florida, so I don't have to worry about winterizing and all that fun stuff. Thanks.

[rider123]

Yeah it's not the best but it does work if you need to get going. I've had "trimmed" O-rings in other bikes I've owned last for years but I've never tried it in the carbs. Since you have the real ones on the way and don't seem to be in any hurry maybe just try the ones that are coming first before resorting to trimming them down. If you do trim them down just take off like 10ths of a millimeter at a time and try to trim them so they are a super snug fit. That way if the trimming is not %100 it won't matter as the O-ring will compress and fill any microscopic gaps. You would be doing manually what a machine does when pumping them out of a factory, so it's not that crazy but you can't get the hyper accuracy of a machine. I like using the nail clippers that are the scissor kind with the curved blades as it seems a bit easier to control but I'm sure the lever kind will work just as well or better. Especially if you get the micro ones, might even have close to the diameter you need.

Although I have ordered O-ring sets and even though they were the same there was very very slight differences in the sizes but it all seemed to work as long as it does the job of sealing whatever you need sealing. Fortunatly gravity feed carbs are a low pressure sort of deal so they are probably much more forgiving then say a high pressure fuel injector pump or something.

Another good place to go believe it or not is hobby stores that sell RC planes and Cars. You can get shims for the needles, little o-rings, all kinds of bits and pieces that Suzuki will charge you $10 for a 10 cent part. Might be worth having a look.

[br1ev8]

Oh yeah...hobby store..that's a great idea too. Didn't even cross my mind. Have to keep that in mind for next time.
Just an update...I received the o-rings from the "o-ring store". I ordered multiple sizes, but only tried one size...7.1mm x1.6mm. These are the ones that fit. They are "buna-N 70" material..which is for fuel. I installed them all, along with Ivans jet kit, and my hydro locking problem is no more. I accidentally left the manual fuel valve on overnight (something that would have definitely flooded the cylinders before) and no hydrolock whatsoever...it cranked right up..and everytime since. Now just waiting on my pipe to come in, so I can dial in the carbs. Thanks for the feedback Rider, I appreciate it.

[rider123]

Cool glad it worked out. The good thing about these bikes is they are relatively simple. While some part obviously have to be bought from Suzuki, for others there is no point in paying $10 for a 10 cent washer. Have you got one of those fancy pingel fuel valves? They are awesome especially at high rpm where more fuel is needed. They even have a diaphram pingel valve now so you can use the vacuum line just like the regular petcock. They also have a dual fuel line feed and all kinds of craziness.

[br1ev8]

Yeah..the o-rings were like a dollar and change...though I bought like five different sizes to experiment, and with shipping was still only $10. Sure beats having to buy the whole valve seat assembly.
I did buy the Pingel valve...little pricey, but leaking fuel valves have scarred me as I had leaking vacuum petcocks with my last bike, and now his ine again. So, I just wanted a simple ande reliable solution, and the Pingel seemed to have the best results from what I read. I've just got to get into a habit of shutting the fuel off manually everytime now.

[Chris H]

I supply o'ring sets for the 400 and the reason they are expensive is that they should be made from viton.
O'ring problems with the B4 and gsxr400 are well documented.
This is 3 or 4 times the price of the normal stuff you get at the diy store.
The problem you will have if you fit the normal o'rings is they go soft in fuel and then start to let fuel past, this richens the mixture very slightly and slowly kills the motor.

[bandit01]

Hi guys - first time poster with an 04 1200......same issue....

I am coming off putting in a Walker stage one modified kit myself.  I bought the bike with leaking fuel into the crankcase issue, too at 8500 miles.  So I'm going to replace my float bowel gaskets as they leaked when I put it back together.   I was hoping to pull off using them again but cannot.  They were really dirty and dried out. So after taking the time to put the carbs back in and re-connected, out they come again.  I knew better than to not just do this the first time while I was in there!

My needle valve seats look OK, but my issue is getting the seat casting out of the carb body to get at the O-Ring.  How do you take it out?  I'm reluctant to grab the top edge with vice grips and pull for fear of bending the brass body and ruining it.  I'd rather buy an $8 gasket from Bike Bandit and a $.10 O-ring than a $35 rebuild kit if I can get away with it.  Is there a secret to taking them out?  Thanks.

[br1ev8]

Well if it is the needle valve seat o-rings that are the problem, they "shouldnt" give you too much hassle to get out, at least mine didn't. After unscrewing the one screw holding down the valve retainer plate, my needle valves practically fell out, due to the shrunk/dried up o-rings. The o-rings are the tension that keeps the valve seat from falling out. So, if they don't just fall out like mine did, then just a little motivation from something small/harmless to pick them out with. I wouldn't grab them with vise grips.

[rider123]

Use a dental pick, it's easier just feed it through so it's behind the needle seat and pull gently and it should pop right out. I agree with br1ev8, using vice grips is a bad idea. It's soft brass and you can kill it easily. Unless you've ordered a rebuild kit and plan to junk it and replace the seat, stick to the dental pick, that brass is almost like playdough. Don't worry they are press fitted with only the o-ring providing resistance they'll come out.