Author Topic: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?  (Read 19970 times)

Offline bstard

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KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« on: March 04, 2012, 05:12:16 PM »
Hi
I have had endless trouble trying to get the airbox of my GS1200SS  2004  to fit back onto the carbs.
It fits on eventually but I am convinced that the hole centers on the air box are different than the carbs
center spacing.
Every thing is still stock so they should line up but they dont. Also there is just no room to jiggle anything.
They must have welded the bloody frame together after they fitted the airbox. :annoy:

My main problem is that I have been trying to set the pilot screws to get rid of the lean stubble but there is just no room to
get in there and access the screws. Yes I have the motion pro screw driver and have also tryed a mirror on a stick as well.
I just sick of it...I dont mind poping the carbs out of the manifolds to get to the pilot screws but then I run into the problem
of not being able to fit them back into the airbox rubbers.

So my plan is to cut the airbox up and ditch it and put on some KN pod filters.
I understand that as they will flow more I will have to jet up...not a problem.
But I am now reading horror story's about using them on these CV carbs that are on the GS1200SS...CVR32's
People talk about maybe having to cut the springs down in the top of the carbs and even having to drill more holes in the carb slide as
there is less vacuum with the KN Pod filters.

So whats the word on using KN Pod filters on the Bandit motors ?
Especially the motors that use the CVR32 carbs

Look forward to many help full replys :grin:
Richard

Offline jeffw

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 10:53:12 PM »
You will have a lot of trouble with K & N pod filters, and stock jetting in your carbs.  The Bandit is lean to start with, that's why you are having issues with the stumble.  Putting on air filters that can flow significantly more air is just going to make the lean problem worse.  But that's not all.  Going to pod filters with out a jet kit is also going to really mess up the vacuum signal the carbs use, to  open the vacuum slides.  (You did know that CV carbs use vacuum slides, right?)  Really, you need to remember that the engine is an air pump, and that means that you have to treat it as a system.  Just changing one part can mess you up. 
There are some options.  Try putting a small amount of soapy water on the inside of the intake boots. Then get a little animal on it.  Wiggle the heck out of the carbs, while pushing them into the boots.  They WILL go in.  Or a small amount of light oil.  A little lube will help make all the differenc.
Try looking up the "Poor Mans Jet Kit" .  It will offer some good basic ideas about how to improve the carbs.

Hope this helps.
05 GSF1200S HS risers, HS stage 1, HS Exhaust HS Backrest, Ventura Rack, Corbin Seat, Renntec Crash Bars, DDM HID 'Busa Shock, Racetech Fork Springs, Cogent Dynamics Fork Valves, Alaska Leather Seat Pad, Stebel Nautilus, Blue Sea Fuse Block, Gerbing Heated Liner
=^..^=

Offline jeffw

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 11:46:22 PM »
Just look down a few posts in this section of the forum.
05 GSF1200S HS risers, HS stage 1, HS Exhaust HS Backrest, Ventura Rack, Corbin Seat, Renntec Crash Bars, DDM HID 'Busa Shock, Racetech Fork Springs, Cogent Dynamics Fork Valves, Alaska Leather Seat Pad, Stebel Nautilus, Blue Sea Fuse Block, Gerbing Heated Liner
=^..^=

Offline rider123

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2012, 11:41:40 AM »
If you put pods on there you will need more jet, however the trade off is more power. Do you still have the stock exhaust on there? It might be worth it if you're going to pods to get an aftermarket mid-pipe and end can. THe dan moto ones are the cheapest and if you get a Bandit 1200 model I'm sure it will work. As far as drilling slides, etc, etc. That is usually only required for some Dynojet kits. DO NOT GET A DYNOJET KIT!!!!! They have serious problems with the 2nd Gen Bandit. I know you're a GS1200SS but It's basically a Bandit with slightly different carbs and different bodywork. THis is what I would do if you're going to PODS.

Before ripping ANYTHING out of there, especially the airbox.

1. Pull the carbs right out of the bike
2. Make sure you're mixture screws are unplugged. If they are plugged with the EPA brass plugs(if you even have them) you won't be able to access them even with a $1000 tool. You must drill the EPA plugs so that you can access the screws. I didn't bother using a tool to adjust them I just use a flathead screwdriver bit, but you got the fancy tool so you're good.
3. Once you make sure that the plugs are drilled. Then set the screws according to the clymer guide.(I'll try and find out what the jetting is for you on that bike)
4. For now set them to the stock turns out.
5. Pull the floatbowls and read off what your 1. pilots are, 2. mains are so you know if you are stock or not and write down the numbers and post it here.
6. Check to see if the needle is adjustable or not.

For example on my bike:

I have 15 pilots 3.75 turns out from LIGHTLY seated.
and 112.5 Mains(100 is stock) for a stage 1. Yours will be different but they will probably be in the same sort of area.

Here is a pic of my carbs(different than yours)but they will all sort of look the same with the floatbowl cover off:




As you can see in the pic the mixture screws are closest to the engine and the plugs are still in there. A good way to get them out(If you even have them) is CAREFULLY drill the hole slightly larger so you can fit a self tapping screw in there and pull the plug out with pliers. Put some tape a 1/4 inch from the tip of the drill bit so you know you aren't drilling to deeply and phucking up the mixure screws. I think you use Keihen carbs not Mikuni is that correct? The main jet should be screwed into the emulsion tube and the pilot should be much smaller but near the emulsion tube. Unscrew carefully and look at the numbers on the side of the jets. THe "mid-jet"(????) is the starter enricher jet, ignore it if you even have the enricher circuit setup like mine.

If your having problems getting the airbox on there, loosen the boots on the engine side as well. That will give you more wiggle room to fit the box and the intake boots in there then tighten when everything fits. If you tighten the intake boots before putting the airbox in there so they are rock hard you need to be Arnold Swarzenegger to fit the airbox on there.

Do you have a Japanese import bike with the 180Km/h top speed limiter(you can get rid of that too).

As far as mixture screw turns out you can count in what you have now or just start around 2.5-3 turns from LIGHTLY seated. Don't go jihad tightening the mixture screws or you screw up the tips.



EDIT: Unfortunatly, since its mostly a Japanese only model it's hell to get any info on this bike. I can't even get pilot and mainjet numbers. But in general--->If you want to keep the airbox stock and just put an aftermarket mid-pipe and end can, One or two mainjet sizes up and a needle adjust or shim will probably be pretty close. With pods you may have to go like 20 sizes up and a larger pilot. If you can tell us what is in there now we can give you an idea of where you need to go. Even just taking off one of the outside floatbowls off, which can be done without pulling the carbs will at least give you an idea of whats in there.

Just to give you an example on my bike which has Mikuni carbs which has jet steps in 2.5

Stock with no aftermarket exhaust 100 mainjet
Stock airbox with exhaust 102.5 or 105 mainjet
Stage 1 with extra 1.5 hole in airbox lid and exhaust 110 or 112.5 mainjet   <-----I'm here
Stage 2 with pods and exhaust 147.5 or 150 mainjet

While your carbs are different and the jet size will be different this gives you an idea of what kind of stepping to expect when jetting up. Since you have smaller carbs on there the stepping may be smaller. My Mikuni's have an artificially small pilot jet to get past emissions so you compensate with a slightly larger mainjet than normal. GET THOSE JET NUMBERS!  :grin:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:24:41 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline bstard

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 06:36:33 PM »
Hi
Thanks guys...I knew all about the need to re-jet when moving to pod filters.
It was just the thought of having to cut the springs that threw me a bit.
I was just getting so pissed off trying to fit the carbs back into the air-box rubbers.
Any way I took the carbs off again today and replaced all the clamp scews.
Plus I measured the air-box rubbers for hole centre spacing. They are the same as the carbs so I cant blame that.
Well this time the carbs slipped back into the air-box rubbers a bit better. It only took 1/2hr of fiddling instead of 2-3 hrs.
I set the pilot screws at 2 turns out and will see how it runs for a week.
The plan was to always stick with the air-box if at all possible but the hassle of trying to fit the carbs back on the air-box rubbers was doing my head in.
I had some email conversations with Dale Walker about this bike and he had never seen this model and was supprised that the GS1200SS runs CVR32 carbs.
If I ever went to pods I would try one of his B600 kits as that model also had the CRV32's
Thanks for the info and I will let you know how it all goes.

Here is a bit of info for you. I tryed some of these... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/performance/auction-454532275.htm...Extended Fuel Mix Screw Keihen FCR.
Wanted to see if they could be fitted as they would make adjusting the pilot screws so much easier.
Unfortunately the threaded part is very slightly different from the standard pilot screw.
So don't bother trying them.
If anyone could make these to suit the CVR32's they would be onto a winner.
Thanks
Richard

Offline rider123

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 08:38:58 PM »
Yeah those 32's are really small for the size of the bike. I'm wondering if you did decide to go with a full stage 2 it might not be better and more power to pick up some 36's with the boots used. But if you want to make it easier see how well you can get the 32's working you may only lose a few ponies upstairs, and theoretically you will have more torque down low with those smaller carbs. Did you get the jet sizes? 2 turns out may not be enough depending on your pilot size. I think if you got the kit for the Bandit 600 it might phuck things up more than help. What you need is real numbers of what you have in there and go up from there. If you're just going with an aftermarket can and mid-pipe but keeping the air intake stock. One or two up on the mains and a needle and mixture screw adjust will do wonders for you. Don't buy a kit for your bike which is a hybrid of several parts you'll probably just waste money and it may not run right. A set of jets is like $12, a kit that may not work is $150. For $150 bucks you can have like 12 sets of jets! One is going to work. Hell you'd have so many jets you could set up a weather station and jet for the exact temp, altitude and humidity if that floats your boat!  :grin:

You could even jet it super lean for earth day

Or

Super rich for phuck the earth day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDhoaXZGJHM


Whatever turns you on....
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:59:12 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline bstard

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 09:13:54 PM »
Hi
Last year when I pulled the carbs I wrote down these jet sizes
Main Jet = 95 Type 99101-393
Slow Jet = 35 N424-25

Got my self confused now and I don't know what I meant by slow jet.

Will redo the info next time I pull the carbs.
If only they were Mikunis...I have tons of jets and Mikunis don't scare me at all.

As I have retired this bike from Drag racing I will only be using it on the road..slow around town stuff with the odd trip away.
So I will keep the CRV32's and try and fine tune them for the low speed stuff..you know off idle...3000rpm small throttle cruising.
That why I would love to be able to buy extended pilot jet screws.
Richard

Offline rider123

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Re: KN Pod Filters versus Airbox ?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 09:20:47 PM »
You should have no problems with those jet numbers if you notice the Pilot jet(slow jet? Weird name for it) is pretty large so I wouldn't worry about the "slow" hehe, system at all. Is the needle adjustable? A semi-decent aftermarket exhaust and a few points up on the mains should do you just fine with the stock intake and panel filter. If you went to a K&N panel filter, then you would need to go another point or two up. That way you would preserve most of the drivability of the stock configuration while getting some more balls under you.(no pun intended) Should drive quite nicely like that and sound nice and throaty. My friend got great results on his Bandit one up from stock (102.5) with some shims to raise the needle and a Yosh end can and mid-pipe with the DB killer installed. Without the insert he would need 105's. So for you since they are Keihen's I believe they go up by 2's and 3's, Ie 95, 98, 100, 102, 105, 108, 110. etc. etc. So if you got say a totally stock intake with stock filter and went with 98's or 100's with an aftermarket end can and mid-pipe you'd probably be awesome. If you wanted to add a K&N panel filter then going to 102's or maybe 105's on the outside would be more your game. This would preserve most if not all the drivability of the stock bike without having to worry if pods get wet in the rain, no bottom end, etc. and the easiest to live with with more power and torque.

HEre's a link with the sizes which may help you out:

http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/Keihin_Main_Jet_99101-393_C78.cfm


After you have it pretty dialed in jetting wise finish up with a poor man's carb sync:

http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.0

And you're good. Enjoy!

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 10:41:44 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.