Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: drewpy_dawg on May 26, 2007, 04:17:26 PM
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All,
I'm not to bikes...but aside from my first bike and my ignorance is bliss mentality every bike I've owned since has been water-cooled.
That said...what is the prevailing thought of how long barely moving is ok on a Bandit? I'm sure it is ambient temperature related...
On that thought...has anyone rigged or designed a fan to pull air through the oil cooler??? (buell's even have this...)
Drew
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I can tell you that when the B12 sits idling for more then 3 minutes after warm up without wind movement, its starts to overheat. I noticed this when Synchronizing the carburetors and not using a portable fan as recommended in the shop manual. Although I never installed a permanent fan I did research the possibility and found out that after market application is mostly used on air cooled quads and that there is an after market application for quads that I am sure can be made to adapt to the B12. If I find the link I will post it.
Frankly I never had a ride situation with my bandit where I needed one even here in the Southwest. When there is heavy traffic, I merely cut the traffic at about 15 MPH.
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FWIW, the Buell fan is there to help provide air to the rear cylinder which is not in free air and packed in there.
I've never been stuck in 100+ traffic with mine, so I can't say how long.
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Illeagal to "lane-split" in Texas, I'm afraid. Cops would love to bust you for that...and the other drivers would love to have a reason to open their car doors. :annoy:
I'm going to research the fan option from 4 wheelers...there is room for something there I think...or a "push" fan in front of the oil cooler...
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If your pretty handy and mechanically inclined you can save a bit by just using the a very small electric radiator fan out of a small car at a salvage yard complete with thermal switch sensor ($10) or just a simple switch to bars where you can turn it off and on manually. Mounting will be tricky though and preferably on the back side of the oil cooler for looks and so as not to impede air flow to the front and draw air through the oil cooler by reversing the polarity on the fan. It really depends on how you use it. If manually you could just leave it on all the time when running, again provided the air flow is front to back regardless of which side it is mounted on..
Illeagal to "lane-split" in Texas, I'm afraid. Cops would love to bust you for that...and the other drivers would love to have a reason to open their car doors. :annoy:
I'm going to research the fan option from 4 wheelers...there is room for something there I think...or a "push" fan in front of the oil cooler...
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I was stuck in traffic for 4 hours on the B650 when i was going to the US for the day... THere was a 5-car pile-up and the entire highway was closed.... this was the long weekend heading towards the US boarder...so you can just imagine... :duh:
THe Bandit did well... it was warm out... i tried to shut off the engine once in a while... no issues yet (keeping fingers crossed)... I've been out an a few rides since the 4 hours idling marathon....
P.S. How can you tell the bike is overheating ? Is there an indicator light ? or what do i look for (sorry, i've never owner an air cooled bike before...)
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An interesting thing happened to me a few weeks ago with regards to overheating. I was stuck in stop and go traffic for about an hour at 25 degrees (Celsius) and I kept watching the oil temp gauge (aftermarket one, replaces the oil cap) slowly but steadily climb from the normal average of 80-90 all the way up to 140. The bike ran fine all the time and I didn't notice any difference in clutch operation. However, when temperature rose over about 120 shifting became noticeably smoother. I was always under the impression that hotter oil gets thinner and therefore shifting should become harder/notchier/stiffer. My only guess would be that Amsoil 10W40 that I'm currently running has some additive that gets activated at higher temperatures...
All in all, there were no ill effects that I could notice. I got a little spooked when the gauge went out of scale (tops at 140) but then I told myself that I would have no idea that the bike is running that hot if I didn't have the gauge and just kept riding. I sincerely doubt bandit can be easily damaged by overheating. After all, those stunters ride them on one wheel at minimum speed and high revs all the time and they endure all that abuse just fine.
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I'd love to know where you got the aftermarket gauge. That would be a great little mod with great peace of mind savings.
-Drew
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There was an appreciable drop-off in heat radiating off the engine once I switched to Mobil-1.
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I'd love to know where you got the aftermarket gauge. That would be a great little mod with great peace of mind savings.
-Drew
They show up on eBay every once in a while. It took me a while to hunt it down but that's how I got mine. Plan on spending around $50, including S&H.
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If you guys are interested there is a member on katriders.com who makes an oil temp sender and gauge kit. It takes the reading at the oil pan, and the gauge can mount to your dash somewhere.
Here's the link to his site:
http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/products/electro.html
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I guess what is suprising is that no one has come up with a fan fix already...I feel like I am a pioneer on an obvious issue 10 years (or more if we count the GSXR heritage) from when the motor was released...
Maybe someone will see this and point a URL my way while I begin working on the issue myself. I DO have access through a friend to a water jet and their mechanical engineering degree for brackets, etc. We'll see...
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If you guys are interested there is a member on katriders.com who makes an oil temp sender and gauge kit. It takes the reading at the oil pan, and the gauge can mount to your dash somewhere.
Here's the link to his site:
http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/products/electro.html
Very interesting, thanks! I got what I need for now, but this is worth a look anyway.
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My only guess would be that Amsoil 10W40 that I'm currently running has some additive that gets activated at higher temperatures...
Shouldn't be anything in the Amzoil that's not in most other engine oils. Engine oils generally DON'T have any special additives for the tranny, as these tend to cause problems in other parts of the engine. But the sliding components in the tranny don't really need anything special to get them to slide.
It's normally the "dogs" on the gears that wear out, due to rounding off of the edges that engage to the next gear. This CAN be assisted with active EP additives, which ARE found in gear oils, but they can't be used in our combined sump engines.
Sorry to put the thread off track.
140 F is not a serious problem for the engine oil, but it is causing a decrease in viscosity. In my experience, the Bandit engines tend to start to run erratically, surging, etc after a long time at idle with minimal air flow. Try to avoid low revs/high torque under these conditions, until you get some airflow going again.
Otherwise, find a different road to ride on, as this sounds terrible for the "rider".
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140 F is not a serious problem for the engine oil, but it is causing a decrease in viscosity. In my experience, the Bandit engines tend to start to run erratically, surging, etc after a long time at idle with minimal air flow. Try to avoid low revs/high torque under these conditions, until you get some airflow going again.
It was about 185+ F (140+C) and increase in viscosity is what I expected. However, the engine was running just fine and the shifting improved considerably which is inconsistent with oil thinning, IMO. No argument with anything you said, just an honest seat of the pants observation.
Otherwise, find a different road to ride on, as this sounds terrible for the "rider".
Unfortunately, living in a big city stop and go traffic is unavoidable every once in a while, especially if it's illegal to lane split/share, let alone ride on the shoulder :(. Thankfully I get tired sooner than the Bandit most of the time.
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As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.
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As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.
Interesting logic. I always thought that thicker oil makes shifting smoother and my experience confirms it 100%. Bandit shifted the smoothest with Mobil1 15W50 and was also very good with Rotella 15W40. It was always a bit hard with any 10W40 oil and that's why I'll be switching to Amsoil 20W50 at the next change.
I would have stayed with Mobil1, but cannot find it anywhere here lately :(.
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Isn't the Rotella a diesel oil though?
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As oil gets hotter it becomes thinner therefore making it easier for the parts to slide around.
Interesting logic. I always thought that thicker oil makes shifting smoother and my experience confirms it 100%. Bandit shifted the smoothest with Mobil1 15W50 and was also very good with Rotella 15W40. It was always a bit hard with any 10W40 oil and that's why I'll be switching to Amsoil 20W50 at the next change.
I would have stayed with Mobil1, but cannot find it anywhere here lately :(.
Surely 10w50 is thinner than 10w40 at high temperatures? I always thought the number after the w was the vicosity when heated up.
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Surely 10w50 is thinner than 10w40 at high temperatures?
Now we got it all confused :). 50 is THICKER than 40, right?
I always thought the number after the w was the vicosity when heated up.
That sounds about right, AFAIK. The first number before the "W" refers to the oil's cold temperature viscosity, while the second number refers to its high temperature viscosity.
In other words, 10W40 behaves like 10 grade oil at zero Fahrenheit and like 40 grade oil at high temperature (water boiling temperature if I'm not mistaken).
That's science. My left foot tells me that Mobil1 15W50 "red cap" shifts better than any 10W40 at any temperature, and it's most probably because it's thicker than 10W40 at any temperature. So far the logic fits, but Amsoil 10W40 threw me off when it started shifting considerably smoother at 140+C (285+F).[/b]
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You'll most probably find after 140 celcius the amsoil is becoming thicker again then.
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Back on topic...
I'm working with a electronics whiz and someone with access to a waterjet to get something cheap going. My plan at this point, based on some observations and measurements, is to try a 120mm computer fan. I'm going to see if it has enough cfm's and is robust enough to handle the heat where it is located. For less than 10 bucks for the fan, its a good first attempt and about the only thing I have found slim enough to fit behind the cooler and not touch anything. Mounting is a big concern, hence the mechanical engineer and a waterjet and I'm also concerned about over revving the fan at speed. That, again, is why I'm going for cheap first. I've got someone working on wiring just in case the fan will be generating electricity when it is not running. I don't want power running into my switch or the neg. terminal of the battery.
Will post when its done...
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With a computer fan I would be concerned with water and dust getting into it and the heat that can melt the fan case. Everything else you mentioned is secondary, if at all relevant for the setup. Keep us posted.
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Sorry to put this back OFF topic, but I want to correct a couple of points: Lubrication Basics 102
The SAE J300 viscosity classification system defines 2 series:
Those containing a "W" are winter grades (the SAE made it pretty simple in the old days), defined by cold cranking viscosity(ASTM D5293) and low temp pumpability (ASTM D4684) tests. In effect, they relate to the ability to start and supply oil in a cold engine. Depending on the test and the oil viscosity, tests are done from -5 to -40 deg C.
Those without the "W" are summer grades, defined by kinematic viscosity(ASTM D445) at 100 deg C and High Temp/high shear viscosity or HTHS (ASTM D4683 & D4741) @ 150 deg C. In effect, this simulates the actual oil viscosity under operating conditions in the engine.
A multigrade oil (like 10W-40) means it has been tested at both ends of the system. Which is why you can buy 20W-20, and oil that is a 20 grade at both low and high temp.
One other comment, all oils (and basically all fluids, including air) get thinner (lower viscosity) at higher temperatures, and get thicker (higher viscosity) at lower temperatures. As almost all North American mineral (dino) olis are based on Parafinic crudes, they also contain Parafin wax, which can really cause them to thicken up as the temperature drops.
As for what we "feel" as we shift the transmission, this is much more subjective. Thicker oils (higher viscosity) will provide more "cushion" between the gear teeth, usually making things quieter. BUT, higher vis oils tend to run hotter, due to the increased friction.
SAE 40 oils (0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W40) tend to be the right comprimise in our engines. But let's finish with a general statment. Using a quality engine oil (API SH or highter), of the correct viscosity (SAE 30, 40 or 50 are all OK) changed regularly, will have everyone at 90% or better. We are only niggling over the last little tweaks that are largely subjective.
Sorry for the thread hijack. Unless you spend a LOT of time under ilde conditions, I wouldn't be overly concerned about the rise in temperature (but I don't have any data on what is actually happening to oil temperatures). The higher temps WILL decrease oil viscosity, but it starts out higher than the ENGINE section needs. Lower oil vis could cause the clutch to get "grabby" and the transmission to become noisier, but should not result in any significant increase in wear. Just avoid low revs/high loads until the engine cools a bit.
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Your fan could trigger, if you idle in nuetral, the nuetral light. Then it would be off anywhere other than that position, and with a relay, electrically isolated at high speed so no feedback. If you get really into it you could disable it with high beam on so when you are warming it up and want the fan off, turn on the high beam.
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Never ever had a problem with the B6 as a courier bike stuck in the CBD, in the middle of summer. Yes it sure was hot, but have still to find any ill affect, she's still running strong with over 130,000 k's on the clock near half of that was courier k's. Had way more problems with water cooled bikes when couriering,
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What ambient temps are you dealing with typically? I'm worried about the upper 90's F (35+ C). I got stuck in traffic and literally crept at less than 5mph for 45 minutes. It was still cold (relatively) in the 40's F so I wasn't worried but even then the bike seemed to get awfully warm. Granted, that was before all the carb work so maybe its running happier now and not as hot. (Running lean adds heat from what I understand...). I'm still debating building it. I've got voltage regulators on the way to make sure 12volts is all thats going through the system (same for my LED's I'm about to install). I found an aluminum framed computer fan to help a bit with heat. If the fan can deal with the heat, I am not worried about dirt and water due to its location and the protection that the oil cooler will provide.
I guess a good question is did the GSXR's with their full fairings have a solution for this?
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What ambient temps are you dealing with typically? I'm worried about the upper 90's F (35+ C). I got stuck in traffic and literally crept at less than 5mph for 45 minutes. It was still cold (relatively) in the 40's F so I wasn't worried but even then the bike seemed to get awfully warm. Granted, that was before all the carb work so maybe its running happier now and not as hot. (Running lean adds heat from what I understand...). I'm still debating building it. I've got voltage regulators on the way to make sure 12volts is all thats going through the system (same for my LED's I'm about to install). I found an aluminum framed computer fan to help a bit with heat. If the fan can deal with the heat, I am not worried about dirt and water due to its location and the protection that the oil cooler will provide.
I guess a good question is did the GSXR's with their full fairings have a solution for this?
High 30's to mid 40's c. To answer your last question, a larger concaved radiator.
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I just turn the bike off and wait.
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Call me Mr. Redundant....
It seems to me that a motorcycle that is designed from its inception to be air/oil cooled...
Ala 1996-2006 Suzuki B12/B6...
The only 'difference maker' in operating temperature is going to be oil, or changing the ability to cool the oil.