Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: drewpy_dawg on May 14, 2007, 09:48:31 PM
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Post 2...apologies if all the info is elsewhere...
I bought a 2002 1200s model used from someone. He had had it a year and put only a 1000 miles on it (having 3 other bikes makes it hard to choose I suppose...). He changed the oil and that was it.
It had a holeshot exhaust and ran pretty well when it was cold outside (mid-50's both when I tried it out and when I picked it up and it stayed cool for about 3 weeks afterwards). as soon as the temperature got into the 80's the bike started running horribly, especially under 3000 rpm's. I wasn't sure if it was gunky carbs (from 1000 miles in a year) or needing a carb sync or some jetting issue.
I took it to a local shop here in Houston recommended to me by the local v-max owners board and they told me a full tune up should fix things. Ok...300 bucks or so...right?
Well...turns out the bike had been shimmed like crazy...according to the tech there were 7 washers. There were holes drilled in the airbox cover as well. He says (he used to race gsxr's) that this was the cause of my problems. So...it needs a full "real" jetting, right...and he suggested to either replace the airbox cover or go ahead, since I was doing all the other carb work, and buy the pod filters instead of going back to stock. From what I have read this sounds pretty good (who won't take extra HP??).
I guess the real question is...is 761 dollars for parts and labor for a jet kit, pods, new spark plugs (obviously fouled due to the poor running...), etc sound about right?
Does his diagnosis sound right as well?
Andrew
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Figure the Holeshot pod kit is $278 WITH the K&N pods and plugs are a few bucks a piece, he's charging almost $500 to install it... sounds a bit steep to me.
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They took the carb's apart as well, I think. I'll see what the labour charge is when i get the bike. Hopefully it is itemized..kinda don't have a choice this go-round but I will not go back if it seems excessive.
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:clap:
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I'm quite ok doing SOME stuff...things with lots of small parts like Carb's that have to be 100% perfect scare me a tad. I think if I had been at a v-max tech day back in my v-max days and actually had someone stand there and walk me through things once I would be alot closer to being comfortable with that type of thing. Maybe a community college course is the way to go...or in this case I wouldn't have been out much more than I am had I gotten in there and tried to make it work on my own. I wouldn't have known that the modded airbox is good for high rpm power but not for happy running lower in the fuel curve.
Also...had my registration request not been deemed spam I could have asked all my questions before taking the bike in...I know the mod's have a hell of a job...but I don't know what made it look spammy, especially putting specifics about my bikes in my signature???
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you are at the mercy of the "mechanics trade", many with mail order ASE stamps.
:asshat:
CWO, I notice your cowardly little pokes at me hidden away here and there, especially right after I mention something about myself. Like just the other day when mentioned I was A.S.E. certified, now here you are with this snide little crap.
If you were a real man, you'd call me out. But all you can do is this childish, behind-the-back, side-mouthed bullsh!t. So here I am calling you out on it.
A.S.E. isn't a "stamp", it's a fully frameable diploma officially recorded in The National Institute for Automotive Service Excellence records department. And you can't "mail order" them.
The"mechanics trade" as you call it, is an honorable trade that takes half a lifetime to truly become knowledgeable and experienced in. I'm a Master Mechanic and I'm proud of it, and I won't have you belittling or making thinly-veiled insults towards me or my lifetime profession.
For your information:
"ASE conducts its tests four times a year. Each May and November paper/pencil testing takes place at over 700 testing sites. Professionals register in advance before the exams.
The tests consist of multiple-choice questions developed by knowledgeable people working in the industry, including ASE-certified professionals. The questions are down-to-earth; they cover on-the-job diagnostic and repair procedures. They are not theoretical; they do not cover "book-knowledge." Testing sessions run 4 hours, allowing ample time to complete several exams."
To be a Master Mechanic requires eight certifications. By the time I retired, I had ten. All of these:
Automobile Series
A1: Engine Repair
A2: Automatic Transmission Transaxle
A3: Manual Drive Train and Axles
A4: Suspension and Steering
A5: Brakes
A6: Electrical/Electronic Systems
A7: Heating and Air Conditioning
A8: Engine Performance
And these:
Medium/Heavy Truck Series
T1: Gasoline Engines
T5: Suspension and Steering
There is also a code of ethics to be learned and followed, found here:
http://www.ase.com/Content/NavigationMenu/Service_Professionals1/Getting_Certified/ASE_Certified_Technicians_Code_of_Ethics/Default477.htm
Now if you continue with your disrespectful behavior, you can expect me to be all over you from now on. There's a lot of cracks I could make about you and your profession (ass-kissing squids, the gay image the navy has, etc.) but I don't sink that low, nor am I that immature.
Friendly, good-natured ribbing is fine, but when you cross the line you will be called out. Understand me?
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:clap:
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Hay listen I was just speaking in general terms Didn't mean to hit home you in your career area. Just trying to share a little good advice
Bullsh!t and you know it. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
Back off.
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How about we stay ON TOPIC?
I asked a question about whether or not I was being fleeced...the general concensus is Yes...would you agree?
I did forget to mention that there is a valve seal b/c the adjusted the valves as well...so figure that into both the total and the labor cost.
You can defend your industry all you want but the general opinion of your industry is what it is for a reason; same as lawyers (which have a set of ethics and a killer test) and other groups that have to deal with more than just a few bad apples. Heck, motorcyclists enjoy a "rep" due to the "squids" out there. You shouldn't be so touchy...you've probably had to fix the mistakes of those bad apples more than once or twice in your career.
Drew
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I dont think your are getting ripped considering the entire job.
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How about we stay ON TOPIC?
I asked a question about whether or not I was being fleeced...the general concensus is Yes...would you agree?
I did forget to mention that there is a valve seal b/c the adjusted the valves as well...so figure that into both the total and the labor cost.
You can defend your industry all you want but the general opinion of your industry is what it is for a reason; same as lawyers (which have a set of ethics and a killer test) and other groups that have to deal with more than just a few bad apples. Heck, motorcyclists enjoy a "rep" due to the "squids" out there. You shouldn't be so touchy...you've probably had to fix the mistakes of those bad apples more than once or twice in your career.
Drew
Drew, the problem with many motorcycle dealers/shops is that there is no standard like ASE for the motorcycle mechanics industry. The good ones hire only proven mechanics or graduates from good schools like MMI. The bad ones could have any Joe Blow working there.
The automotive mechanics industry used to be 100 times worse... ASE is responsible for cleaning it up. Granted, there are bad apples still... but any employer who hires ASE certified technicians is a good bet.
My problem with CWO goes deeper than this topic, but it was his intential dig at ASE "stamps" that I won't tolerate. He inferred that anyone could get a fake ASE certification off the internet and this is simply not true. Cerifications are recorded in the ASE database for any employer to run a check on. A piece of paper is worthless without these records to back them up.
Yeah, there are bad mechanics, just like bad cops. But there are also a hell of a lot of whiney customers out there that are impossible to please no matter how hard you try... people that will scream and bitch and cry over every cent they have to shell out to fix their junk heaps. I get tired of hearing this kind of crap, and the mechanics industry is one of their favorite punching bags.
If you think you're getting ripped off, do like asshat says and learn how to work on your own vehicle. Maybe you'll get a better appreciation for what it takes.
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:clap:
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Oh no...I rode it quite a bit those three weeks. Was gassing up about once a week over those three weeks and always with good stuff (corporate Shell and Exxon stations). Put a cheapo fuel system cleaner in on the first tank and had a bottle of the good stuff (Chevron Techron Synthetic...) that I didn't get to because the bike kept running worse and worse as the temperature climbed. 70 degree days it was tolerable. When the temp. got into the mid-80's it was almost undrivable in commuting stop and go traffic. That was when I said to heck with it and took it in.
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If you think you're getting ripped off, do like asshat says and learn how to work on your own vehicle. Maybe you'll get a better appreciation for what it takes.[/quote]
I don't necessarily think I am getting ripped off. If all the work I'm having done + all the parts = almost $800 bucks then I'm fine with that. I was mostly asking if the diagnosis was correct, if the work performed to rectify the problem was correct and if the parts and labor for the whole job sounded about right.
Again...I'm not afraid to work on a bike...I AM afraid of things that have lots of small parts that have to be EXACTLY right like carb's and jet kits. I've done brake pads, oil changes and replaced/upgraded the clutch on my last bike, a v-max with no issues...its this level of detail that scares me. I know my limits, basically, and figured out where the problem lied on the bike after purchase and knew that I wouldn't be able to properly take care of it; even with a Clymers manual...simply because it was outside of my comfort zone.
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No problem, Drew... I understand where you're coming from and I apologize to you for getting off subject in your thread.
It was CWO's purposeful little BS remark that I was addressing... he has a Zen-bug up his butt and does this crap all the time... it goes way back. I'm sick of it so I'm calling him out every time he does it. Hopefully he'll grow up someday. :roll:
All I can say about your situation is it's very difficult to diagnose a problem without being there and seeing for myself. Some simpler things can be advised on over the net, but there are many variables and complexities in what you describe... things have been altered and if the slides have been drilled incorrectly or other components have been screwed up then there may be some expensive parts that need to be replaced... that could be why the bill seems so high.
I wish I could be there in person, I'd be glad to help. :wink:
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I don't think you are headed the wrong way. I do hope that your mechanic explained to you what running pods is like. Your bike is not going to like being cold, it will make strange noises and if you wash it at the car wash it will run super rich for a few minutes. If you are after a fix it and forget it, you aren't going to get that. I love my holeshot pod setup, but I do want you to know that you will have issues with it and you would do well to learn some basic carb mechanics. It is more of a hot rodders set up and as such it will, over time, give you some problems. You can fix them with just a little education and I bet you will feel better about carbs when you are through. I run mine almost everyday to and from work and it is fine, just has some quirks to learn about.
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Thanks for the heads up. He did ask if I rode in the rain. My reply was "only when I have to, but yes sometimes." (I passed the MSF on a "street legal" dirtbike that didn't have DOT tires in the rain...). I'll leave the covers on for that reason. Does anyone have the waterproof cordura covers that Dale Walker sells?
I try to avoid carwashes for the bike...my version of washing the bike is to gently hose off the bike then get in with some Detailing spray and elbow grease. Takes about the same amount of time and I'm washed and waxed all at once.
So it will be cranky when its cold? Isn't that normal for bandit's? :bandit:
What do you mean by strange noises??
I'm more than willing to learn and will (especially after this bill...heh). The walk through's I've seen are helpful but I REALLY need to truly see it done once. My previous car's cult following had people video taping and burning to DVD the how-to's and they made some good money doing so I think.
Thanks
Drew
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Hey Drewpy
Let's see...diagnose carb problem, remove and rejet carbs, adjust valves, install pod filters, at current shop rates, sounds about right. (At least I don't thing your being taken to the cleaners).
Dianosis...a little questionable. The holes if the factory airbox are a recommended upgrade with a jet kit. (Either Holeshot or Ivan's) so it is NOT necessary to automatically replace the airbox or go to pods. Maybe just install a proper jet kit, c/w instructions.
Unfortunately the mechanic is not likely an expert on the B-12. Yup...it would have been good to have the info before you gave it to him, but such is life. Hope you get back what you expect.
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See...He IS a b-12 expert. Used to race GSXR's and his current ride is a heavily modified naked B-12. Maybe his version of what is "right" is a little different than others? Some feel the Pods don't do much (Ivans...from what I've read) whereas others feel they do...so maybe his version of optimal is different. Some of it with the Pods was a "while you are at it because we're doing all this other stuff" as well.
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FWIW I've been running the Holeshot Stage II kit with pods for ~40K miles in temps from ~32 to >100*F. In the rain and in the dry. Mine starts just fine all the time. It does require the choke when the motor's cold, but no different than before it was rejetted and warm up is a little faster. On the occasions when I wash it with water, I just avoid spraying the pods with the hose or the wand. That's pretty easy since the side covers cover them so well. In the rain, I've only had it stumble from the filters getting too wet twice. Both times it was raining VERY HARD.
The only strange noises I've heard, if you want to call them that, is I get a little more intake tract noise.
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The strange noise I get is a slight pop back through the carbs when it is cold. Doesn't really seem to be a problem, but it does make people around you take a second look. I was told the stockers do that a bit too, but the airbox muffles it. As far as the rain and ride quality in the cold it's fine. Mine does like to be choked, but I have it running lean on the idle compared to most (3 1/2 ). I had the ivan's kit and back to back dyno'd both with the same 116hp results. I changed because I have bigger plans for a 1216 in the future. Already went to gsxr cam and full exhaust and that is where the pods started to pay off for me. Had I no future plans though, I would have kept the ivan's kit.
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I do get that occasional 'sneeze' like that when cold, too, especially if I try to give it throttle before it's ready.
There were no Ivan's kits when I got mine. I chose the pods for ease of maintenance as well as thinking I might go further with the mods someday. Doubt I'll follow through though, probably end up getting another bike instead of further mod investments, but who knows...
:bandit:
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Good point Red, the pods make it WAY easier to work on. Tossing the pair in the trash is a huge move towards making things easier as well, and cheap.
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Yes ,I believe his diognosis is corect.Dialing in the carbs may be more than just putting in a set of jets and putting them back on. I did mine myself,but had them out(taking notes each time)several times untill I got the sizes,mains and piolots to my liking. You can get a close starting point from trials and errors from previous tuners. Then take it for a good ride ,read the plugs,to see if the mains are right. The piolots suggested by Dale Walker and seem to be the ones used by the majority w/ same set ups were too small for my bike. It was lean at low speeds,so I went up. Also had to run my needles leaner than suggested and I'm using a washer to tune it in to 1/2 notch. 3 turns out is where I'm at w/ the fuel screws. But all was done ,one thing at a time,taking notes each time. So what I'm gtting at, for that $500. labor, is he going to get it right the 1st time? and if it needs dialed in is it all included in the same quote? Dan
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I'm hoping that because:
a) he rides a modified B-12 himself
b) its taking for what seems like forever. (Thursday will be two weeks since I dropped it off...they had about a 5 day lag in getting to bikes and talked to him Saturday about the PODs and such)
That it will be 100% right the first time around. If it runs poorly when I go to pick it up, I'll make a stink, thats for darn sure.
Next time, I'll do the valves myself for sure (after some reading, this is def. something labor intensive but not hard) and spark plugs are a no-brainer.
I'm just looking forward to having the bike back and with more HP than when I dropped it off.
The wife's bike is fun...but not THAT fun.
Andrew
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Update..
Got the bike back. I got a little over-charged for the K&N Pod's (about 10 bucks more than what I've seen as the msrp) and about 5 over on the crank case breather filter. The bike runs like a bat out of hell. Throttle response throughout the powerband is amazing now. 70mph to 80mph is a blink with just a crack of the throttle. Labor for what they did was spot on and it runs like a top. I'm happy...would have been happier had the person that put the holeshot on done things right in the first place but now its got a stage 3 dynojet and pods. Honda of Houston does 20 bucks dyno days every so often...will have to hit them up to see what I'm putting out now. I haven't really had a chance to lay in on it too much and no one wanted to "play" saturday night...not even a little.
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:bigok:
I guess you need to update your sig now... the "(coming soon)" can be deleted now.
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dawg, is there any chance you could let me know where you took your bike ? $800 seems like a bargain to me right now :taz:
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Wow,
$500 to install a jet kit? Next time you can send me the carbs and I will pay shipping both ways for that price to do a jet kit.
Check here for my prices:
http://www.billsbikesnservice.com/work.htm
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plugs, valves, chain clean and adjust and a few other things for that labor charge as well. It rides so well and is dialed in 100% that sending the carbs out and getting them back then still possibly having to tweak them doesn't sound all that perfect of an option.
(they also tweaked the pre-load front and rear based on my weight...easy enough to do but a nice detail)
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plugs, valves, chain clean and adjust and a few other things for that labor charge as well. It rides so well and is dialed in 100% that sending the carbs out and getting them back then still possibly having to tweak them doesn't sound all that perfect of an option.
(they also tweaked the pre-load front and rear based on my weight...easy enough to do but a nice detail)
Did not go back and check, but I don't think all that work as mentioned before. Also be careful, I have had guys bring me there Bandits that they have just gotton back from the dealer for valve adjustment and other work, only to find that the work that stated was done actually was not done. So I hope you do have an good and honest dealer.
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It was a local independent bike shop highly recommended to me by members of the local v-max owners association and I had 2 or 3 all recommend this place. Their rep. in town comes from their knowledge, expertise and honesty and wouldn't get the business they do if they shafted people.