Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: FlyingTurtle1 on March 23, 2005, 11:47:45 PM
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Well Folks :banghead: Here's the continuing story of my Oil Burner....I was supposed to have my bike back from the dealer last week( they've had it for 8 weeks now) as the time for thier call came and went I got a little upset and was afraid to call them for fear of what I might say, so I had my better and calmer half call them. They told her that the parts needing machined(cylinder) had been sent to the machine shop, that's funny she said last friday you just got them back from the machine shop. Well you'll need to talk to the service manager the guy says, OK have him call me. 2 and 1/2 hours later no call. My wife calls them back...yes says the service manager your parts were sent back to the machine shop because they weren't done right. OK when can we expect the bike to be done maybe wendesday (today) or thursday. NO call today. But I'm getting ahead of myself...Monday the 21st I decide to call the extended warranty folks to see if they are going to extend my warranty sense this is the 3rd time I've had this motor gone thru...well no they say your warranty expires tomorrow and as the warranty is a "point of sale" item it cannot be extended any more maybe you should call Suzuki. OK I ask why are you paying all this money to rebuild instead of putting in a new motor? Because he says Suzuki will NOT sell any motors to thier dealers. This suprised me but as I found out later almost NO major manufacture will sell a new motorcycle engine(Harley being the exception). So I call Suzuki and ask can I get a warranty other then the dealers 30 day labor/90 days parts deal he says NO your way past our warranty you should call SEP (Suzuki Exteneded Protection or GE Warranty the company that holds the warranty). You can see where this is going right?
Monday evening I called a lawyer... I'm asking for a 1 year warranty. a new bike or my money back. I like my Bandit folks but I gotta tell you if I get my money back Suzuki will Never see another penny from me or mine. Oh and just so you know my Daughter '03 SV650, my Son '00 TL1000R... my daughter's boyfriend RACES '04 GSXR600. Anyway thank you all for letting me rant.
Almost forgot to add...if Suzuki doesn't trust thier dealers enough to extend a warranty on thier motors why should I trust them....????
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Good luck, Terry.
I made this topic 'sticky' so it can draw some attention.
Suzuki needs to realize we like the bikes, and are willing to be 'brand loyal', but not to the extent of getting screwed.
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A simular incident is happening to a friend of mine and Ford. He bought an 04 f-3500 deisel. He was getting oil blow back in his radiator. Turned out one of the motor heads had warped because the factory over torqued the head bolt and it stripped out. They replaced his engine with a remanufactured engine instead of a new engine. He was quite miffed about this and wanted them to replace it with a new one...they said it's their polcy to replace with rebuilt engines not new ones. They refuse to replace the engine with a new one and they won't extend his warranty. They are basically telling him "tuff cookies just live with it". Just one of the reasons why I'm a Dodge man. The other being that I have 328,000 mile on my Dakota V6 and it's still running strong.
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Warranty stuff is tough because it all involves insurance. I think in any case the squeaky wheel will get the grease. I know there's a lot of infighting between manuf. and dealers. Keep complaining and send a lawyer letter and I would think things would get handled. As for the buddy with the Ford, Ford actually had to buy back a lot of '04 trucks due to the problems with the new 6.0 diesel. My golden rule, NEVER buy a first year product out of Detroit. Wait a few years to get the bugs worked out.
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Good ole' Ford!
If you own a 96-99 SHO, you should know that it's only matter of time until the engine grenades. The cam gear walks on the cam until it slips and plants a few valves into the pistons.
Since Ford only made 20,000 of these cars, they're waiting until they all grenade and will be done with the complaints. Check eBay for the latest victim. They didn't count on a class action suit, however.
Buy one cheap and have the cams welded. A great car and they're cheap considering this small reliability issue...
Ford or Suzuki, dealers are trash. Sorry for your predicament.
Marc/Atlanta
97 TR SHO
99 Bandit
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All manufacturers hate warranty claims, it comes right out of the bottom line. I can't always blame them though. Sure there are some lemons out there, but there's also a lot of neglectful, idiot owners out there. I talked to a Ford service manager and its amazing how many cars come in with 20-30,000 miles on them and the motors toast. People want the engine replaced because they never thought to change the oil!
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I'm sorry that you are having to go through all this. I know lots of guys that have struggled through this oil burning issue on their 2G bandits.
I even did a survey on it abut 3 years ago....
http://groups.msn.com/DavesBanditHomePage/20012002banditsurvey.msnw
I was one of the lucky ones as mine only burned about a quart every oil change. Others were in much worse shape than me and did what you did. In all cases I know it was a fricking struggle to get this warrenty work done. Its just not right that people are being treated this way by Suzuki. I am hugely dissapointed in them as I have had nothing but good experiences with Suzuki products (4th bike so far). They ARE losing customers over this issue!
FWIW, I have a 1G now (a 2000 model) and it don't burn a drop of oil.
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Is the problem with how they build the motor, as in are they building it to fast to meet demand and screwing up on a few, as so many are being sold, the few are now becoming alot. A recall is the last line of defence, if that happens shit really has hit the fan! :stop:
And most of the time you will never here about the one's they fix in the factory! I live close to the Nissan plant in the UK and have spoke to some of the workers there and the storys they tell! I wont be buying Nissan! :duh:
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I haven't read the rest of this story yet but it sounds to me like your dealer is a POS. Too bad they are messing with you because I really like my Bandit 6. I haven't had any issues with it except a vacuum line under the tank came loose. The engine started tapping real hard and there was no power at all. I was scared to ride the last 5 miles home but had no choice. Called the dealer and he sent his son with a pickup to get my bike within 45 minutes!! Called me the next day at 10 AM and said all was well and it was just a loose vac line. Anyhow I would beat on the Dealer and let him fight with Suzuki. If he stands by his product he should be more pissed at Suzuki than you are. I'm confident if I was in your shoes my dealer would be on my side and try to hold me as a customer. The bike market is getting more competitive every day and it would be real easy for me to look hard at a Z750 as a replacement after I sued the crap out of them. Just my two pennies!!
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:thanks: For all the good thoughts folks! Just to let you all know I don't blame my dealer..Competition Accessories..They have really tried to help as best they can. I do believe they are just caught in the middle. When this happened the first time I sent them to Bandit Alley to see what you all were saying, they tried to get it fixed and it didn't work.
My laywer sent Suzuki,SEP and Comp a letter last week asking for a new bike or my money back, I haven't heard anything from them yet. I guess what I really don't understand is why Suzuki can't just give me a new motor. They know this motor has had problems from day 1, doesn't make sense to go through all this when a new motor would solve the problem. Seems to me it would be cheaper for them and a WHOLE lot better then ticking off a whole family of Suzuki riders! :duh: I'll keep you posted.....
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Is the problem with how they build the motor, as in are they building it to fast to meet demand and screwing up on a few, as so many are being sold, the few are now becoming alot.
I can't answer why FlyingTurtle1 is having ongoing problems, but the original problem was Suzuki had changed the design of the pistons in 2001. The primary (only?) change was the oil return holes in the oil ring grooves was bigger than the groove itself. This isn't an unheard of practice, but most pistons that have this feature have the holes only break out of the groove on the lower edge. Suzuki centered the holes, so they broke out above and below the groove. Some engines work fine this way, others consume oil.
The fix for oil drinkers and late 2002-up production models was to install new pistons with smaller oil return holes like the 2000 & earlier B12's used.
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This sucks. I'm about to lose my three year warranty in June, June 1st to be exact. I didn't get to ride the thing at all basically last season and it runs like shiznit right now. I'm debating a dealer warranty repair on the pistons since I know mine was made with the bad pistons. I know it burns oil and it also drips oil. It drips from the oil cooler hose bolts down by the filter. The exhaust tip is black with soot and it has about 3200 on it. I think it runs a little rich too but I dare not mess with carbs. Unfortunately I trust none of the dealers near me. I need to pull the plugs and see if they are fouled first and I'm afraid I'll find oil fouling.
I didn't get the break in oil change until 1800 miles. I took it to a dealer near my house (I bought it at a different dealer) and he told me the plugs were fouled because I was warming it up with the choke set too high. They also told me the valves didn't need adjusting. Now when I bought it, the mechanic at that dealer told me I could ride it however I wanted but I had to make sure I didn't run at the same RPM for an extended period of time. I asked if I had to keep it below a specific RPM and he said no. He said work the gearbox as much as possible and on the highway vary speeds, gears and RPM whenever possible.
What should I do? Should I do some investigating and attempt the warranty repair? It doesn't lose that much oil as far as I can tell but like I said I didn't get to ride enough last year to really gauge the consumption. I'm not a total mechanical idiot and can do some things to it. However my tool box is very lacking and I don't have a good repair manual for it. One of you guys sent me an '01 manual for a different Bandit model on CD (thanks again, I forgot who you are) but I would like the correct manual for my bike.
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The drip from the oil cooler line doesn't sound like a major problem. Could just need to be re-torqued, or the seal washers replaced.
If your bike doesn't visibly smoke or use a quart or more every 600 miles, a warranty repair will be hard to get unless you happen across a very sympathetic dealer. (Some folks have.)
Also, if your VIN is JS1GV77A*22102179 or higher, you already have the newer pistons.
I would be surprised if it is running rich. These bikes normally come from the factory jetted very lean - to make the EPA happy.
Yours is a 2002, right? AFAIK, the only difference between a 2001 and a 2002 is very minor. The difference is in the digital displays in the speedo & tach. The '01 has a fuel gauge in the tach and the digital clock, odo and two trip meters are all in the speedo. The '02 put the clock in with the fuel gauge. So, unless you're dealing with the wiring to those functions, everything is the same. My guess is the service manual is the same for all '01-'05 models and just supplements to adress the minor wiring changes in the later years. (There were a couple more minor wiring changes in '04.)
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I have checked the VIN already in the past. I know it wasn't made with the "correct" pistons. I also know it probably doesn't burn a quart every 600. So now what should I do instead?
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1. Live with it.
2. Try to find a sympathetic dealer who'll go to bat for you.
3. Fix it out of your own pocket. (In this case, I'd go with Holeshot's high compression pistons.)
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Yeah now we're talking. Now how do I go about installing the pistons? In other words, how much will it cost to have someone do it for me? I can't see myself being able to do this.
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OK so here is the deal. I went to the local Suzuki dealer before to buy new spark plugs. I told him my problem, that I rarely rode the bike last season, it sat for long periods without running, and it sounds like it is running on 3 cylinders. He immediately said "carburetor has a gummed up needle." Now this is where I would be curious to see what y'all think.
According to this guy, and it sounds legit, this has a lot to do with the type of gasoline sold in my area. Not that it directly causes it, but his opinion is that the additives put in fuel in metropolitan areas has an adverse effect compared to fuel in more rural areas where additives might not be as plentiful. Also the fact that in rural areas the riding is less stop and go and you burn fuel better and more economically because the engine is running which is what it is supposed to do. The engine isn't engineered to idle and run, idle and run. Supposedly the chemicals in the fuel can eat away at the float bowl needles and/or form a ring around the needle that causes it to stick when the fuel gets gummy. He went as far as to say this happened in his own Suzuki even though he had added some stabil but still let it sit way too long. He said his bike started pouring fuel out of the overflow tubes. I told him as much as it ran like crap last year, it never did that.
His suggestion was to let them take the carbs off the bike, clean them and clean out the fuel tank. He said it was a mostly labor intensive procedure and that the needles in the carbs would still be good to go. They soak them in an acidic solution, clean them off, and set them up. He said it would run about $250. I'll also have them change the oil and check the plugs just to be sure if I have the work done.
When I mentioned that I was aware my bike had the "questionable pistons" he claimed that the real problem with those pistons lay in how the bike was ridden. Those who saw a real oil consumption problem were riders who weren't necessarily suited for that type of bike. They really should be on a cruiser and didn't treat the Bandit like a sport bike. Now he said I could have the pistons replaced but that Suzuki is using the same exact piston as a replacement. They stopped using a piston with a smaller oil port and went back to the same piston that is in there now. I didn't quite understand how he put this to me and didn't bother to get into it. At this point if I ever have a piston swap done, I'll be using Hole Shot high compression. Might as well supe the biotch up right?
This sounds like it could be a legit solution. I've had pretty much a 50-50 response from others I've asked who ride. Some say carbs are gunked, some say the plugs are fouled from sitting or oil burning or whatever. The story about the fuel chemical stuff was weird. I've never heard that opinion before.
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2 letters: B S
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Usually, if it's a gummed up problem, it's all four carbs, not just one.
I don't buy the rural/urban aditive theory. Now some parts of the country do require oxygenated fuel some or all the time due to the EPA and air quality issues, and this stuff does tend to go bad sooner than non-oxygenated fuel, but any of it starts to get iffy after it's been sitting over 30 days unless you put stabilizer in your gas.
As for how much will it cost you to have new pistons put in, I'd talk to some shops and see what they give for estimates. They should have a flat rate figured out for this, but I don't know what it is.
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Yeah I need to pull the plugs and see what's going on with them. He said don't even try to start the bike but I may do that too.
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Hey LongIsland I gotta go with Red and '?' on this one Yeah my bike was ridden in town alot but you don't put 24K on one in 4 years just stop and go. And as for the curiser crack..I think that man is on it!(CRACK) PLUS I'm sorry but he's full of it cause Suzuki IS NOT using the same piston. Call my dealer and ask..Competition Accessories 1-800-588-2434 They'll probably give you an ear full after what they've been through with mine. By the way my pistions have been replaced with Wiseco pistons.
On a sadder note I no longer have the Bandit... I gave in and traded it off sunday while it was still on the rack without the head on. Hope you fellows will still let me hang out on this site cause I did worse then SpeedyTriple I went Italian. '01 Aprilia Futura, Staintune exhaust, upgraded EFI, carbon hugger fender and a 3 year unlimited mileage tire to tire warranty. After all the crap and the 3rd redo I just didn't think I could trust the ole Bandit anymore.
I sure hope you find someone to help you before you have to go thru what I did.
Terry Humphreys No longer a Bandit owner
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:duh: Forgot to add this, my cost for year round insurance went down $94.00 a year because the Futura is a 1000 not a 1200!! Unbelievable!
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:congrats: Futura! (http://www.sport-touring.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/drool.gif)
Just bums me out Aprilia's discontinued it.
If we let Speedy stay, there's no reason to deny you. :motorsmile:
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I hope so because I own a fricken BMW.
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You'll always have some Bandit in your blood!! :beers: :beers:
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:congrats: Terry
The Futura is a nice machine
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Yeah I'm none too happy right now trying to figure out the best and most cost effective way of going about this. On a crappier note, my buddy has an SV1000 and a TL1000 that he is repairing/customizing. Neither will run right and both ran fine when he bought them. They have both sat for so long without starting. I believe they are both EFI too but I may be mistaken.
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:lol: The laugh is because I just changed the plugs on my son's '00 TL1000R and man it's a PITA :monkeymoon: You have to drain the radiator and take it off to get to the plug in the front cylinder!! No fun at all. Am waiting for the owners manual and service manual to find out if I have to go thru that with the Futrua! Got a little over 200 miles on it so far this week and gotta say it's funny but the Bandit seemed to have a little more grunt in the middle then this twin, but it sure do go nice :wink: Also nice to have all the adjustment on the suspension, made the better half happy when I softened up the rear shock tonight, She now doesn't think it's trying to throw her off!!
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Well my buddy got his SV 1000 to run correctly. Somehow a gas can in his body shop that doesn't belong to them, but looks like their now missing can, had pre-mixed fuel in it. He drained the tank and fuel lines, put fresh gasoline in the tank, started it up, and did 135mph down the parkway. He said the wheel comes up rediculously easy, even at 90mph and/or in 4th gear. All you need to do is whack the throttle and hold on. He also said it'll do stoppies with no problem. He took it past our friends automotive shop and for fun baked the rear tire like nothing. He is scared of this bike and I'm waiting to ride it with nervous anticipation.
*EDIT*
OK so I took in El Bandito today, after all is said and done, the guy tells me he can't do an inspection because of my flush mounted rear turn signals. I told them they were sold to me as DOT approved because they are clear plastic and an amber bulb. He said regardless he couldn't inspect it because the boss won't risk his license. He did say plenty of other places will do the inspection which I am aware of anyways. Anyone ever hear of this?
I took the SV out for a run. Way too fast!
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:duh: Here's a little update on my sOLD Bandit. Just found this out last weekend...seems the dealer sold it to a guy somewhere around my town (I haven't seen it yet) and he got a fair deal, bags and all. But 2 weeks ago the dealer had a Open House along with one of those "Dyno Drag" things and the guy with my old bike shows up, he puts 'er on the dyno and blows away a 'BUSA... the sales people are going NUTS cause they know the motors not been broken in well yet. Then the guy decides to go from 1/4 mile to 1mile race and the sales people are takin' bets as to when it will blow!!! :shock: It didn't and he rides 'er home. I gotta find this guy and see if she still lives!
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http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I came across this a while back, it makes perfect sense. Engines are run in on the dyno all the time. You have a very limited amount of time to get the rings to seat fully before everything goes smooth- once that happens they are either properly seated or not.
I believe the manafacturer's break in guidelines are way too conserative. The biggest factor is to have the bike fully warmed up before running it hard. Cold oil does not provide much lubrication, here is where most abnormal wear occurs.
The only thing that really caught my eye was the 1800 mile interval before the first oil change. That is extreme, on a fresh motor I will change oil at 50, 250, 500, and 1000 miles. Oil is cheap compared to the cost of the motor itself. You are removing all the assembly lube and metal out of the oil as the engine wears in. This is more important than following manafacture guidelines on when to exceed certain rpm's.
I am putting an 816cc kit in my GS750ED. The app. costs are:
Piston Kit w/rings and head gasket $475
Cylinder boring/machine work $250
Engine gaskets misc $100
I do my own work, if paying for labor expect $400-$600.
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this is gonna sound wrong but the best way to seat the rings in a air cooled vw is to install dry and fire her up and give it a few good whacks on the gas and poof seated rings! not sure why this works, mabey the opposed cylinder thing but was told to do it by a long time vw wrench and it works like a dream! so the thought of breaking a engine in on the dyno doesn't bother me, it may not lead to the longest engine life but if you need to know how much power your getting that soon in the game my guess is that long life is not in the cards!
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http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I came across this a while back, it makes perfect sense. Engines are run in on the dyno all the time. You have a very limited amount of time to get the rings to seat fully before everything goes smooth- once that happens they are either properly seated or not.
I believe the manafacturer's break in guidelines are way too conserative. The biggest factor is to have the bike fully warmed up before running it hard. Cold oil does not provide much lubrication, here is where most abnormal wear occurs.
The only thing that really caught my eye was the 1800 mile interval before the first oil change. That is extreme, on a fresh motor I will change oil at 50, 250, 500, and 1000 miles. Oil is cheap compared to the cost of the motor itself. You are removing all the assembly lube and metal out of the oil as the engine wears in. This is more important than following manafacture guidelines on when to exceed certain rpm's.
I am putting an 816cc kit in my GS750ED. The app. costs are:
Piston Kit w/rings and head gasket $475
Cylinder boring/machine work $250
Engine gaskets misc $100
I do my own work, if paying for labor expect $400-$600.
I would like to add my 2 cent's here. Yes, it is true most engine damage is done at start-up, but not from cold oil. The damage is done from lack of circulation of oil at start-up.
Remember there is more to breaking in a new engine than seating rings. On a new engine you also have new main & connecting rod bearings, Piston wrist pin bearings that sometime have very tight tollerances. This is of course even more exagerated on a cold engine.
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True, but rings are the only things that have to seat, or 'break in.' The tight tolerances on all the other parts are supposed to stay as tight as the assembly specs for many thousands of miles. I once tore down a Honda Civic motor to rebuild the head and figured I'd go ahead and throw fresh rings and bearings in it while I was at it. The motor had 188,000 miles on it and the bearings were still within factory "new" tolerances. Since the mains cost $30 per journal and the rods were $26, I decided to leave them alone. The engine was still running fine when I sold the car at 325K.
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I concur that I also believe this is true. I learned working with naval engineers while in the service that this is the very reason why most main propulsion and auxiliary engines in the marine industry have pre-circulation oil pumps which are activated prior to engine start up because marine engines have to last and do last more then twice the hours of engines without them.
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
I would like to add my 2 cent's here. Yes, it is true most engine damage is done at start-up, but not from cold oil. The damage is done from lack of circulation of oil at start-up.
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As I understand it the oil holes were wrongly designed so oil passed above the rings and entered the combustion chamber.
Since the engines were over oiled in this condition unless it ran low on oil the bores should still be in good condition.
Therefore to solve the issue using a set of pre 2001 pistons and rings with a gasket set should be all you need in parts to solve the oil burning issue.
A simple bore diameter/runout check and light cylinder hone should be all the barrel needs as well.
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Wow, I'm going to see if I can re-open this cob-webbed thread again... [tap tap].. anyone OUT there??
I've got a 1st Gen B12 now with 130K on it.. (about 20K since a total motor overhaul, including all new bearings, JE pistons, rings, valve seals, etc etc.)
It's going through a lot of oil, presently... maybe a quart in 750-1000 miles. Funny thing is that it doesn't SHOW any SIGNS of burning oil...such as smoke at start-up or oil in the pipe end. The bike runs better than it ever has...crisp, strong (120 hp / 84 lbs torque on Ivan's dyno), and smoother than anyone else's B12 (I balanced the clutch basket and crank).
But it's simply using oil. Maybe extra crankcase pressure is forcing oil into the airbox...this has been suggested. It has also been suggested that, if the plugs are clean (they are) and there's no signs of malfunction... "F"-it... just ride the som-bich.
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Did you consider the possibility of worn exhaust valve guides or seals that may be leaking oil into the exhaust ports. The quantity you mention is not really enough in the mileage quoted to have a visual effect with smoke showing out the exhaust.
Pull the header off and have a look in the exhaust ports, better yet if you can see the neck of any exhaust valves for oil accumulated residue sitting on them It will look like hard scaly carbon build up.
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Thanks Allan, those are great suggestions.
The head I'm currently using was from a 2002 donor motor, with 20K on it. Before installing this one I had a local engineer (race car level) clean the valve seats.. and I installed new seals.
Hmm... I'm wondering what seals I put in... I don't THINK they were OEM Suzuki... (they definitely were Viton, and I did an inspection on them)...
So I supoose it's possible they were not the highest quality. Can't know for sure... but you may be correct about the ways to check for that. I may want to put an aftermarket header on it this winter... so I should have a chance to see the valve stems.
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Worth some inverstigation for sure, so when you can get around to it let me know your findings.