Author Topic: Engine knock at idle and hot.  (Read 11630 times)

Offline Octane

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Engine knock at idle and hot.
« on: February 20, 2012, 03:39:41 AM »
I've noticed this knock sound at real hot idle. I've noticed it more in summer here. Difficult to describe but it's not at cam speed. It's not a sharp sound - more muffled.
Heres the circumstances...
start up and cold idle = ok
Idle at lights and hot = ok
Idle at lights but real hot ( stop start in 30deg heat for a while or after a long highway run at 110km/h) = a knock at about 5-6 times per second
Increase rpm ever so slightly in neutral when this is occurring = noise goes away
Most noticeable when engine is hot and shut down for a few minutes (heat soak cycle) and restarted and let idle = knocking sound on start up and idle - goes away with a slight increase in rpm.

I removed the belly pan to see if it was directing the sound upward toward me = sure was. Without the pan you nearly can't hear it.

I'm running 10W-50 oil. Bike now has 42,000km on the clock. Ambient temps are 30degC.

I'm thinking of checking the oil pressure on a gauge with the view to change oil to a 10W-70 which I can geat easily but is about $80 for 5 litres.

Any ideas Folks?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline banditv

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 04:18:05 AM »
does the noise go away when you pull the clutch in?
my b250v rattles a bit in the clutch when its hot but goes away when i pull it in, but its not an oil boiler like the b12
it wont be bearings, they get noisier if you give it a rev.

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 08:00:21 AM »
Are all the valves adjusted ok Octane? Mine has a little knock now and it's about the same as yours 45K but it's almost so hard to hear you have to put your ear up to the engine to hear it. I'm due for a valve adjustment so I'll know more once that is done. Sometimes if you've just done a valve adjustment and they are loose it will chatter a bit. What octane are you using? Maybe try the next up as you might be getting a little pre-ignition at idle when super hot.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 08:05:41 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline pmackie

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 07:39:41 PM »
Quote
does the noise go away when you pull the clutch in?

As Banditv says here, check the noise with the clutch in and out.

If it goes away with the clutch in, than it is likely a noise from the clutch or transmission that only occurs once the oil is thinner. May or may not be significant.
Paul
2002-GSF600S, Progressive Fork Springs, B12 Shock,
SS Brake lines, EBC HH pads, Leo Vince Ex & Kappa bags.
Ex Bike Mechanic (late 70's), somewhat rusty
32 years in the Fuel/lubes industry(Retired)

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 07:43:39 PM »
I agree the GS series this bike is based on is notorious for noisy clutch baskets.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 03:13:42 PM »
I have some bad news. Unfortunately it wasn't any of the lesser potential problems. Big end bearing on No.1 has shat itself.
Bike has now been laid up and is going into theatre for a heart removal procedure - probably starting this weekend.
Going to split the case and have a look to see how bad it is. Anyone want a B12 engine for parts?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 04:04:08 PM »
Save the jets I sent you! That's too bad, are you sure it's tits up? I'm assuming your just going to change the bearing.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline banditv

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 12:52:44 AM »
as long as the crank hasnt been marked and the bearing tunnel is not damaged, you may be able to measure it against factory tolerances and just whack new bearings in it.

Offline Octane

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 03:31:33 AM »
Yes it's tits up I'm afraid. Two options here...
1. Buy 2nd hand engine and change it out. Sell off old engine as parts to help pay for it. ($2000AUD roughly for a "good one")
2. Pull old one down and inspect - could be just No.1 bearing. May as well do all 4. Prob is 3rd and 4th gear whine. the case hardning may have worn off these gears - delve deeper into engine. Could cost a whole lot more than a replacement engine. That's an unknown and who knows how long it may take me to rebuild it. :duh:
I really don't know what to do at this point. I could get the engine but simply can't afford it for at least another month and I'd be eating out of a tin every night and ordering water if I go out to the pub with my Mates for about 6 months paying it off.
Damn it all!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:35:36 AM by Octane »
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 04:03:56 AM »
Ah Octane that too bad man, ok well lets take a look at the options which may help you decide.

Option 1:
Tear the engine down and take a look at the bearings
Ok if you tear down the engine, it might be worth it for a few things. One you will %100 know what the hell is going on in there. If the bearing is the only thing that is tits up then it is repairable at a fairly reasonable amount of money. It's possible that 3rd and 4th gears are putting some extra strain or in some way exaggerating that dead bearing and the whine is actually the dead bearing itself. I'm kind of leaning towards this solution, while a bitch, if it's just a dead bearing the total cost is the dead bearing and maybe a few gaskets. I know it's a super bitch to do but if you have enough beer and extra hands you could probably do it in a weekend. If that is the only thing thats totally phucked you can replace it out and get another 100K on the bike. I wonder what the hell the previous owner did or did not do to kill a bearing? Shitty oil? Ran it dry? Gas contamination in the oil? Who knows but if your lucky and that is the only thing wrong your in luck(well relatively anyway) While your in there check the 3 and 4 gears if possible, if they look good then you're probably fine.

Option 2:
Buy a used engine and take a bit of a chance.
While this option is a bit scary.(better the devil you know) this has advantages as well. If you get another used engine at a wreckers, you can practically make that bike run forever with the amount of parts you'll have left over from the first engine. Piston pooched? Throw in another, Clutch dead? No probs have an entire clutch assembly. You basically turn into your own Suzuki dealership just in the parts alone you may break close to even depending on how many parts you use from the old engine over the years. I know alot of riders who love having spare engines for their bikes. My friend until just recently sold his original '82 Katana 1100 had a spare and used a bunch of parts from it when things wore out or broke. When he sold the bike he got a little more cash as there was a spare engine with the bike. However this option is expensive and who knows if you are getting a hot rod or a basket case. If the previous owner crashed right outside the dealership after buying it(you guys see that u-tube vid?) then you're basically going to get a brand new engine. If it's in that sort of a good shape you can sell the old one which will offset the cost. However if you get an engine that's been beat every weekend at the drag track and the guy used canola or vegetable oil in there, you may just be inheriting a new set of problems.

I know it kinda sucks but the cheapest and probably best option is to tear it down. According to www.bikebandit.com if its a piston bearing it's only $13.50 to replace if when torn apart is the problem(possible would cause knocking, main bearing would be whining more). It's possible that this is the issue or are you sure it's the main bearing. The bearing themselves are not that much money they are just hell to get to. If I was in Australia I'd say phuck it Octane I'll bring the beer you provide the food and lets do it this weekend. It possible since this bike shares the same engine as the GSXR1100 I'm sure there are a shitload of parts that can be used floating around out there. If you do fix it and it turns out to be just one bearing you'll thank yourself later. Hell you can get tits up every night at the pub with the money you saved! Also having a look see in the engine also gives you an idea of what kind of service you'll get out of the bike. Other than the bearing it may be pristine inside.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:11:16 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 06:15:22 AM »
Well it was a difficult birth for my bandit (like passing a watermelon out of your.... well you know)
Well here it is...

2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 06:40:09 PM »
You did it nice! Is that the new or old engine?
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 04:10:39 AM »
That's the old one. The donor engine is still a couple of states away.
Pulled the valve cover off to double check things were ok in there. Noticed two of the lobes had some spalling on them or pitting.
Pulled a bearing cap off to check under there - all looks okay. Need plastigauge to ensure they are ok.
Could be a good project engine for someone - big bore or something. I'll probably sell it as I really don't have the time or the spare $ to do it up. Something which I noticed was how clean it is inside. No sludge or anything. Just dark golden oil resting in the depressions of the head. Testiment to this bikes new owner and his fetish for changing oil and filter well before due time and K's. As for it's PREVIOUS owner - well let's just say some people just shouldn't be allowed bikes.
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 10:29:37 AM »
It's too bad. I betcha the rest of the engine is pristine.


Don't feel bad it can't be as bad as this:

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701300629
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 02:45:14 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Engine knock at idle and hot.
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 06:22:10 AM »
Well the new engine is on it's way to me. Hope to have it installed by next weekend.
The drill through the ECU was just... well.... how the f'k'n'ell does a person fail soooooooo badly?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.