Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Octane on February 20, 2012, 03:39:41 AM
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I've noticed this knock sound at real hot idle. I've noticed it more in summer here. Difficult to describe but it's not at cam speed. It's not a sharp sound - more muffled.
Heres the circumstances...
start up and cold idle = ok
Idle at lights and hot = ok
Idle at lights but real hot ( stop start in 30deg heat for a while or after a long highway run at 110km/h) = a knock at about 5-6 times per second
Increase rpm ever so slightly in neutral when this is occurring = noise goes away
Most noticeable when engine is hot and shut down for a few minutes (heat soak cycle) and restarted and let idle = knocking sound on start up and idle - goes away with a slight increase in rpm.
I removed the belly pan to see if it was directing the sound upward toward me = sure was. Without the pan you nearly can't hear it.
I'm running 10W-50 oil. Bike now has 42,000km on the clock. Ambient temps are 30degC.
I'm thinking of checking the oil pressure on a gauge with the view to change oil to a 10W-70 which I can geat easily but is about $80 for 5 litres.
Any ideas Folks?
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does the noise go away when you pull the clutch in?
my b250v rattles a bit in the clutch when its hot but goes away when i pull it in, but its not an oil boiler like the b12
it wont be bearings, they get noisier if you give it a rev.
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Are all the valves adjusted ok Octane? Mine has a little knock now and it's about the same as yours 45K but it's almost so hard to hear you have to put your ear up to the engine to hear it. I'm due for a valve adjustment so I'll know more once that is done. Sometimes if you've just done a valve adjustment and they are loose it will chatter a bit. What octane are you using? Maybe try the next up as you might be getting a little pre-ignition at idle when super hot.
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does the noise go away when you pull the clutch in?
As Banditv says here, check the noise with the clutch in and out.
If it goes away with the clutch in, than it is likely a noise from the clutch or transmission that only occurs once the oil is thinner. May or may not be significant.
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I agree the GS series this bike is based on is notorious for noisy clutch baskets.
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I have some bad news. Unfortunately it wasn't any of the lesser potential problems. Big end bearing on No.1 has shat itself.
Bike has now been laid up and is going into theatre for a heart removal procedure - probably starting this weekend.
Going to split the case and have a look to see how bad it is. Anyone want a B12 engine for parts?
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Save the jets I sent you! That's too bad, are you sure it's tits up? I'm assuming your just going to change the bearing.
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as long as the crank hasnt been marked and the bearing tunnel is not damaged, you may be able to measure it against factory tolerances and just whack new bearings in it.
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Yes it's tits up I'm afraid. Two options here...
1. Buy 2nd hand engine and change it out. Sell off old engine as parts to help pay for it. ($2000AUD roughly for a "good one")
2. Pull old one down and inspect - could be just No.1 bearing. May as well do all 4. Prob is 3rd and 4th gear whine. the case hardning may have worn off these gears - delve deeper into engine. Could cost a whole lot more than a replacement engine. That's an unknown and who knows how long it may take me to rebuild it. :duh:
I really don't know what to do at this point. I could get the engine but simply can't afford it for at least another month and I'd be eating out of a tin every night and ordering water if I go out to the pub with my Mates for about 6 months paying it off.
Damn it all!
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Ah Octane that too bad man, ok well lets take a look at the options which may help you decide.
Option 1:
Tear the engine down and take a look at the bearings
Ok if you tear down the engine, it might be worth it for a few things. One you will %100 know what the hell is going on in there. If the bearing is the only thing that is tits up then it is repairable at a fairly reasonable amount of money. It's possible that 3rd and 4th gears are putting some extra strain or in some way exaggerating that dead bearing and the whine is actually the dead bearing itself. I'm kind of leaning towards this solution, while a bitch, if it's just a dead bearing the total cost is the dead bearing and maybe a few gaskets. I know it's a super bitch to do but if you have enough beer and extra hands you could probably do it in a weekend. If that is the only thing thats totally phucked you can replace it out and get another 100K on the bike. I wonder what the hell the previous owner did or did not do to kill a bearing? Shitty oil? Ran it dry? Gas contamination in the oil? Who knows but if your lucky and that is the only thing wrong your in luck(well relatively anyway) While your in there check the 3 and 4 gears if possible, if they look good then you're probably fine.
Option 2:
Buy a used engine and take a bit of a chance.
While this option is a bit scary.(better the devil you know) this has advantages as well. If you get another used engine at a wreckers, you can practically make that bike run forever with the amount of parts you'll have left over from the first engine. Piston pooched? Throw in another, Clutch dead? No probs have an entire clutch assembly. You basically turn into your own Suzuki dealership just in the parts alone you may break close to even depending on how many parts you use from the old engine over the years. I know alot of riders who love having spare engines for their bikes. My friend until just recently sold his original '82 Katana 1100 had a spare and used a bunch of parts from it when things wore out or broke. When he sold the bike he got a little more cash as there was a spare engine with the bike. However this option is expensive and who knows if you are getting a hot rod or a basket case. If the previous owner crashed right outside the dealership after buying it(you guys see that u-tube vid?) then you're basically going to get a brand new engine. If it's in that sort of a good shape you can sell the old one which will offset the cost. However if you get an engine that's been beat every weekend at the drag track and the guy used canola or vegetable oil in there, you may just be inheriting a new set of problems.
I know it kinda sucks but the cheapest and probably best option is to tear it down. According to www.bikebandit.com if its a piston bearing it's only $13.50 to replace if when torn apart is the problem(possible would cause knocking, main bearing would be whining more). It's possible that this is the issue or are you sure it's the main bearing. The bearing themselves are not that much money they are just hell to get to. If I was in Australia I'd say phuck it Octane I'll bring the beer you provide the food and lets do it this weekend. It possible since this bike shares the same engine as the GSXR1100 I'm sure there are a shitload of parts that can be used floating around out there. If you do fix it and it turns out to be just one bearing you'll thank yourself later. Hell you can get tits up every night at the pub with the money you saved! Also having a look see in the engine also gives you an idea of what kind of service you'll get out of the bike. Other than the bearing it may be pristine inside.
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Well it was a difficult birth for my bandit (like passing a watermelon out of your.... well you know)
Well here it is...
(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/15/87/15/21/imag0115.jpg)
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You did it nice! Is that the new or old engine?
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That's the old one. The donor engine is still a couple of states away.
Pulled the valve cover off to double check things were ok in there. Noticed two of the lobes had some spalling on them or pitting.
Pulled a bearing cap off to check under there - all looks okay. Need plastigauge to ensure they are ok.
Could be a good project engine for someone - big bore or something. I'll probably sell it as I really don't have the time or the spare $ to do it up. Something which I noticed was how clean it is inside. No sludge or anything. Just dark golden oil resting in the depressions of the head. Testiment to this bikes new owner and his fetish for changing oil and filter well before due time and K's. As for it's PREVIOUS owner - well let's just say some people just shouldn't be allowed bikes.
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It's too bad. I betcha the rest of the engine is pristine.
Don't feel bad it can't be as bad as this:
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701300629
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Well the new engine is on it's way to me. Hope to have it installed by next weekend.
The drill through the ECU was just... well.... how the f'k'n'ell does a person fail soooooooo badly?
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It's even worse if you read later in the post he drilled through the ECU couplers so that's a new harness, plus when the key was turned numbers 3 and 4 cylinders had the injectors go full blast so the engine hydrolocked and bent a rod, so new engine components now too. So don't feel bad on a bad bearing!!!! :grin: BTW my bike is running super awesome with the stock filters 3.75 turns on the mixture screws and 112.5 mainjets. If you can't get the 115's or 117.5's you could pop in the stock filter temporarily. If you need a jet care package again just pm me after the new engine arrives.
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OK, engine should be here Monday or Tuesday. It's missing the starter, alternator and the starter cover and ignition cover which = a lot of area open to dirt ingress. The engine is apparently wrapped up in plastic for transport but you never know.
So this is what I'm proposing....
Once the engine is back in the frame and basically ready to start, remove the spark plugs and ground the HT leads.
Fill the crankcase with fresh oil and a new filter. Crank over the engine for say 30 seconds at a time to give oil pressure and start circulation and "flushing". Repeat several times giving respite to the starter from overheating.
Once satisfied with that dump the oil and filter. Replace with your favourite brand of liquid sex for bikes and a new filter and fire it up.
Was thinking though - what do you think about using regular car engine oil (cheap as possible) as a flushing fluid for this purpose since I'm not starting it or operating the clutch with it?
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what do you think about using regular car engine oil (cheap as possible) as a flushing fluid for this purpose
I personally think you're getting too carried away, but nothing wrong with using Automotive Engine Oil as a flushing oil. If you are really only planning to use it as a flushing oil, then any 10W-30 oil will be fine. I wouldn't be afraid to run the engine, as long as the engine comes looking pretty clean. If it really comes looking dirty, then you will want to clean it all as best you can using Varsol or other hydrocarbon solvent.
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Depending on how you feel, even a 30 second crank is putting alot of stress on the starter. A better and easier way is to take off the spark plugs and put maybe 5 to 10 drops of oil directly into the cylinders. Let it sit for maybe 20 min to let a film of oil develop on the piston rings which, when the engine isn't running will be loose enough to have a barrier of oil develop. Give her a crank for 5 to 10 secs max with the spark plugs out to aid in cranking and just the action of the pistons moving up and down will spread that oil around enough to protect the rings and cylinder walls. In between the 5 to 10 secs of cranking give at least a couple of mins to let the starter cool down. A couple of crankings is all you should need as long as you put enough oil in the cylinders. Then you should be ready to rock. If the engine you receive hasn't been run in a while, it will be bone dry so err on the side of more oil than less, it will burn off after you start the engine for real and the proper oil pressure comes up.
If you need those extra jets just PM me and I'll order them for you, we might as well have it running right the first time. I'm ordering some jets for my cousins bike so an extra set won't bust the bank. For now if you're using the 112.5's try going back to the stock filter temporarily. Good luck! And tell us how it's coming along. If you need any extra help please don't hesitate to ask there are alot of experts way better than myself here(like pmackie) that will give you a hand. I'm only responding because I'm good at breaking stuff and am too cheap to pay someone to fix it :grin: I've done a rebuild or two in my time so I have probably made the mistakes before you and can help you steer clear of them.
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Thanks Rider, I've ordered a set of 115's from the US. SHould be here in a week or so. About $22AUD landed.
Something which is becoming increasingly apparent to me going from reconditioning car engines years ago to trying to fix bike engines is that there are so many more suppliers of non-gen parts for cars than bikes. Anyone heard of a aftermarket set of bike engine bearings? Not around here apparently. My options for bike parts are either Suzuki themselves (like the dealeship but sorry $9.90 for a single exhaust gasket ring or $7 for a single "nut" is just too expensive or am I just being a tight arse?) or ebay.
When I mention that I can get similar part from ebay for $$$$$$ less, they nearly jump the counter to strangle me. example was set of 4 copper rings for the exhaust would cost just shy of $40 genuine or $14 for a full set non gen from USA. Hmmmmm what would you do? When we're told our energy costs will increase 160% by mid this year, our bike rego and insurance costs will increase, home insurance will cost more, petrol up ($1.50 per litre ATM) I'm going to do everything possibe to try to maintain a standard of living. If that means sourcing bits from OS so I can save $ - i'll do that. Sorry, but that's life. A successful business is one that can adapt to change. Oh, just realised I was ranting - sorry. :duh:
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Try www.bikebandit.com from the states but they shipped to Canada. Theoretically if they won't ship to Australia ship it to me and I'll pass it on using grim Canada Post, won't be too fast but it will get there cheaply. I'm not sure of the shipping arrangement that Canada Post uses but if it's small enough I'm sure just Air Mail will work. Who knows maybe they just throw the shit on a raft and hope the ocean currents will beach it in Australia somewhere. Let me know how the 115's work with the K&N so I can give it a try. I'm thinking though 117.5's are probably what's needed after running 112.5's at least here in Canada where the more demented members of the riding community are the first to ride and even ride after a couple of melted snowfalls. (no names)
As far as oil goes it more comes down to speculation, when the US and Israel, or even just the US itself bombs Iran in late spring/early summer this year there will be disruptions for those nations who import there oil by sea. In Canada we have a shitload of oil that we can't even give away because the hippy protesters in the States are worried a phucking badger is going to get disrupted in the middle of nowhere on the prairies. I wish they would actually do some phucking research before bitching about something they know little about. The main concern is oil spills but what they don't understand is a land based multi pump station has pressure valves all along the length of the pipeline so if there is any drop in pressure along the pipeline the oil is immediately shut off, even if multiple sensors fail for some crazy reason due to sabotage or sunspots, global warming, whatever, they all don't fail. Eventually the break will be detected and again the oil will be shut off. A pipeline is only used at %50 capacity for this very reason.
Even if a spill happens the cleanup is way easier than a ship going tits up in the ocean where even a small spill spreads miles and miles. The beauty of a land based spill is the oil can be reclaimed as it generally just creates a pond that you can pump up and just shoot it back into the pipeline or truck away in days, not weeks. What's really bad is we spend billions of dollars in research, building materials, studies, etc etc. The pipeline is just sitting there waiting to build in huge storage fields ready to go. Then the Obama administration pulls the plug and suddenly gasoline goes to near $5 a gallon. Coincidence??? The problem is not the amount of oil as they are currently saying there is more than Saudi Arabia just sitting there, it's to get it from bumphuck nowhere to the Gulf coast where %95 of the refining factories are. So you got to get it down there somehow. The beauty of the original pipeline plan is it will link up with the oil fields in North and South Dakota(which they just found shitloads) and then shoot it all down to the Gulf coast for refining. They would have more oil than they know what to do with. There's already a bottleneck now, not in supply but delivery.
So now the danger is not in if there is enough oil, but where it's going to go. The backers of this Keystone pipeline project are mightily pissed the American Government pulled the plug. They are now talking about just building a pipeline over the Rockies to Vancouver and just saying phuck you to the American government and selling to China at a much better price. If that happens you'll be looking at $5 a gallon as the "golden age" of gasoline prices 5 years from now. The whole reason for this pipeline was to help each other out. We supply cheap oil to America and in turn they supply cheap gasoline to Canada, it was a win/win arrangement. Everyone made money and the States could cut down on killing Arabs and/or backing Islamic dictatorships which is the main driving force whole "war on terror" was started anyway. Did you really think Al-Queda(CIA/ISI asset) attacked America because "they hate freedom" or is it they are mad that America kind of got screwed over and is supporting dictators in Islamic countries in return for secure oil supplies? If we can supply the States with all they could ever need, there is a whole effect on the entire supply chain. If America's overseas consumption is reduced even as little as %15 there is that much more oil on the markets to supply other countries with. Suddenly you'll see gasoline drop like a rock EVERYWHERE.
If we could supply America through a pipeline linked up with the other ocean of oil just found in the Dakotas, gasoline prices may go as low as $1.75 a gallon(maybe less with some oversupply problems). There would be too much oil, producers would probably have to cut production to keep the prices up.It's win/win all and up down the board. If its cheaper to ship stuff because fuel prices are low prices drop, especially for food items or "just in time" shipping items. It will be cheaper to keep employees, so more jobs will be created, and not bullshit jobs either like that so called "green" solar power plant in Nevada that cost $50 million to build and only has 5 employees and makes a profit of $3000 a year(look it up) with government money. Or the shitloads of money GM got and as a concession they had to build, where is very quickly turning into a lemon, the Chevy VOLT which is SHITTIER than the EV1 they built 15 years ago and isn't electric either. The only reason that the EV1 got cancelled as it had over double the range of the VOLT was because the only hardcore maintenance was to change the brushings in the engine every 100 thousand miles at around $40. They could not get the dealer to take them since most of the money for dealerships is made in the shop.
So for anyone that has half a brain. This "green" movement, while having lofty goals, is expensive, not fully developed technology wise, and is rife with government wastage and corruption. Thats not a good combo. Like it or not, oil is here to stay for at least another 50 to 100 years until we get some better technology online. I have no doubt will get there eventually especially with the explosion of electronic items and when there are electric cars out there like the Tesla getting 250 to 300 miles per charge. It seems like every year the battery technology is getting better and better. Just think like even just 10 years ago, you'd brag to your friends that you got an 1.5 hours on your laptop(that weighed like a brick). Now it like 10 hours on a battery half the size that like a 1/3 of the weight. What we need is cheap enough energy to spawn innovation and jobs to support such a venture. And there is nothing that kills jobs faster than high energy prices. I guess when their Latte's cost $10 will they suddendly realize maybe going to far too fast without the proper support wasn't such a good idea....