Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: kokomosam on February 18, 2008, 07:28:34 PM
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Hello all,
I have a 2002 1200s with the Ivan's Jet Kit and a 2 brothers can and my tank range sucks. Now this wasn't a big problem at first, but now that I am doing more touring this is getting to be a pain especially when riding with bikes with more then twice my range. I got the bike with the Ivans' jet kit already on it, so I am not sure about exactly what was done to install it.
So the question is...
How hard / expensive would it be to make the carb's stock again? I do have the stock exhaust.
Thanks
Sam
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I have virtually the same setup as you on my '03... I only dropped about 2mpg. I don't know that undoing it would accomplish much.
Did you have the bike before the jet kit/exhaust was put on?
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I have virtually the same setup as you on my '03... I only dropped about 2mpg. I don't know that undoing it would accomplish much.
Did you have the bike before the jet kit/exhaust was put on?
First of all let me comment on you sig. :clap: I like it but I find it distracting from motorcycle trains of thought.
The bike had the jet kit/exhaust when I got it.
The idiot light comes on at around 140+ and I once got almost 160 out of it without actually running out of gas. Is that what you are experiencing?
Sam
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I get to about 125-135 before I have to switch to reserve. Previously I would maybe get to 135-140 before reserve.
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My stage 1 and 2Bros dropped my milage signifigantly. Never figured out the mpg. but in kms. I used to get about 320 to a tank and now I get about 220. Plus I upped the pilot size to get smoother running at lower revvs. Not that the bike was not fast stock but I do have noticable more torque now. The other downside is I have buzzing loud noise in my helmet now that the best earplugs can't kill. I'm keeping it for one more season then I'll probably go back to stock. To do that I'll have to pull the carbs, replace the old jets, reset the screws to factory (3 1/2 turns), put the PAIRS system back on and of course the stock can. Not a huge job but worth it for sound comfort and fuel milage.
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My stage 1 and 2Bros dropped my milage signifigantly. Never figured out the mpg. but in kms. I used to get about 320 to a tank and now I get about 220. Plus I upped the pilot size to get smoother running at lower revvs. Not that the bike was not fast stock but I do have noticable more torque now. The other downside is I have buzzing loud noise in my helmet now that the best earplugs can't kill. I'm keeping it for one more season then I'll probably go back to stock. To do that I'll have to pull the carbs, replace the old jets, reset the screws to factory (3 1/2 turns), put the PAIRS system back on and of course the stock can. Not a huge job but worth it for sound comfort and fuel milage.
I guess my concern here is doesn't the Ivan's kit involve some drilling? Is it reversible?
Sam
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The only drilling is to the airbox lid, which you can cover up with duct tape, or replace the lid for around $25.
The brass EPA-mandated "anti-tamper" caps over the A/F mixture screws are drilled out when the jet kit is installed.... but you want them out regardless of whether you have a jet kit or not.
Rocketjock... that's a huge drop in mileage. I talked to Ivan and he said a 2-3 mpg drop (3-5 kpg) was the norm after installing his kit.
If the bike is tuned right, you should only be losing about 25k per tankful at most.
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Yeah 140-160 doesn't sound bad at all. Tank size is 5.3 gallons - which is what, probably ~5 gallons of usable capacity at most? So from as full as practical to empty at 160 miles is 32mpg for a beastly powerful machine. Sounds pretty reasonable. With my mostly commuter riding, I'm only getting high-30s on my little 600 that's stock with the exception of a slipon and needle shims.
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Your mileage sounds a little low, even for a jet kit, except when you are running really hard, then it sounds fine. In "cruise' mode, while touring, you should get 150-160 miles before you go onto reserve. Remember, the reserve will give you another 30-40 miles as well.
Before you convert completely back to stock, I would suggest you lean things out just a little, and see how it runs...
1. Adjust the air screws IN 1/4 to 1/2 turn
2. Pop the tops off the carbs and move the clips UP (dropping the needle DOWN) one clip, or if there are shims on the needles, remove one shim.
This will lean out the carb in the 1st 3/4 throttle, still leaving the larger main jets in place, for full throttle runs. With a little patience, you can do this with the carbs still in place.
3. Drop the main jets 1 size. - you will have to remove the carbs to do this.
These changes should make a measurable improvement in mileage, but WILL make the bike leaner, and it may not run as well as before.
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Your mileage sounds a little low, even for a jet kit, except when you are running really hard, then it sounds fine. In "cruise' mode, while touring, you should get 150-160 miles before you go onto reserve. Remember, the reserve will give you another 30-40 miles as well.
Before you convert completely back to stock, I would suggest you lean things out just a little, and see how it runs...
1. Adjust the air screws IN 1/4 to 1/2 turn
2. Pop the tops off the carbs and move the clips UP (dropping the needle DOWN) one clip, or if there are shims on the needles, remove one shim.
This will lean out the carb in the 1st 3/4 throttle, still leaving the larger main jets in place, for full throttle runs. With a little patience, you can do this with the carbs still in place.
3. Drop the main jets 1 size. - you will have to remove the carbs to do this.
These changes should make a measurable improvement in mileage, but WILL make the bike leaner, and it may not run as well as before.
I am curious what you mean by not run as well... With the kit in I get some deceleratoin popping from the exhaust and some hesitation/missing sometimes when coming off throttle to on throttle.
thanks everyone for all the help.
Sam
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I think what he's saying is if the bike was running fine now, and you leaned it out a little, it may not be so perfect.
Some decel popping is normal. The OEM exhaust does a good job of quieting it in stock form.
I don't know what people are riding that are getting double the mileage between fill-ups, but even if you go back to bone-stock, you're not gonna get close to that much of an improvement.
My bike has ~4.0 gallons in the normal position and I'll hit reserve ~150-160 miles. (Holeshot Stage II & Holeshot 17" Street can - gets ~39mpg under my average conditions, I can eek more out, or thrash it hard and get worse.) When it was bone stock, it might have went another 10-15 miles, since it got ~2-3 mpg better.
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I have a 97 with stock exhaust, and an unidentified (Dynojet?) jet kit installed, and stock gearing. I get around 150-160 miles before reserve. I average from 29 to 44 mpg, depending on how much around town driving I do. I don't think you'll get much more range by changing back. You may to better to change the gearing. Drop 2 or 3 teeth on the back sprocket and see how much that helps.
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why do we buy big horsepower bikes and add pipes carb kits etc.... ?
i know why i got mine it sure ain't for the gas mileage! it's for smileage!!!!!!! tire smok'en wheelstand'en fun :gatlin :burnout:
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it's for smileage!!!!!!!
:bigok: :clap: isn't that the truth! :beers:
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With the kit in I get some deceleratoin popping from the exhaust and some hesitation/missing sometimes when coming off throttle to on throttle.
Sounds you may have some air/fuel problems that aren't related to the jet kit. It may be gummed up carbs, bad plugs, dirty air filter, etc.
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why do we buy big horsepower bikes and add pipes carb kits etc.... ?
i know why i got mine it sure ain't for the gas mileage! it's for smileage!!!!!!! tire smok'en wheelstand'en fun :gatlin :burnout:
LOL
I have to admit the power and the slightly hooligan nature of the bike does have some appeal and the raw acceleration is great fun. However, I guess I am getting old. Now I am touring with guys on Honda ST, Goldwings, some Sprint ST's and the like. All don't seem to hit reserve until after 200 miles. I love the bandit and am not ready to get an old man's bike (Honda ST or Goldwing), so I am just trying to get the most out of the bike as possible.
But wheelies are cool.. :iddi:
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With the kit in I get some deceleratoin popping from the exhaust and some hesitation/missing sometimes when coming off throttle to on throttle.
Sounds you may have some air/fuel problems that aren't related to the jet kit. It may be gummed up carbs, bad plugs, dirty air filter, etc.
hmmm..... I guess I will have to look in to that. I may take it to the shop and have someone look at it.
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And if pursuing the least number of fuel stops with the likes of pure-touring bikes is your goal.... the Bandit ain't ever gonna be the proper cup 'o tea. :wink:
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And if pursuing the least number of fuel stops with the likes of pure-touring bikes is your goal.... the Bandit ain't ever gonna be the proper cup 'o tea. :wink:
Yep. I think that is a given. I just love the looks of a naked bike too much to move to a touring bike yet and I don't expect to make the Bandit have that kind of range. I am just trying to increase the range to the best possible for the Bandit to decrease the delta between me and my riding mates as much as possible. :motorsmile:
Of course it is all relative, I ride with some sport bikes and I have the better range.
I will take it into the shop and see if there is something wrong with the air fuel mix and then try some of the suggestions that pmackie made and keep the thread updated on my progress.
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OLD hell im 51 and i want it faster!!!!!!!!!!!
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My stage 1 and 2Bros dropped my milage signifigantly. Never figured out the mpg. but in kms. I used to get about 320 to a tank and now I get about 220. Plus I upped the pilot size to get smoother running at lower revvs. Not that the bike was not fast stock but I do have noticable more torque now. The other downside is I have buzzing loud noise in my helmet now that the best earplugs can't kill. I'm keeping it for one more season then I'll probably go back to stock. To do that I'll have to pull the carbs, replace the old jets, reset the screws to factory (3 1/2 turns), put the PAIRS system back on and of course the stock can. Not a huge job but worth it for sound comfort and fuel milage.
I guess my concern here is doesn't the Ivan's kit involve some drilling? Is it reversible?
Sam
Oh ya, forgot to mention the 20 5/8 holes drilled in the airbox. Just tape them up. The other drilling was drilling out the plugs over the mixture screws to make adjustments. No need to do anything there.
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Rocketjock... that's a huge drop in mileage. I talked to Ivan and he said a 2-3 mpg drop (3-5 kpg) was the norm after installing his kit.
If the bike is tuned right, you should only be losing about 25kpg at most.
Hey Paul. I guess I opted for the smoother performance over the optimum acceleration last year. I enrichened mine to the least amount of decel pop and the smoothest low rev ride. This had me setting the needle clips at one below center setting. It also seemed to have the bike behaving pretty well the same as stock in the power dept. with a slightly audible WAAA sound when I cracked the throttle. Like it was running too rich. Thus the big gas mileage drop. The plugs didn't, however show rich burning so it was just heading into the rich zone. This year I'm gonna leave the needles in the center position and damn the low rev miss. I did try the clips set at second from top and got real poor performance right up to 4500 rpm.
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I've used Ivan needles on two 1st Gen B12's now. (same ones! I swapped the carb guts over to my newer '98 B12). Air box 20 holes and all. Yosh RS3 end can. Stock paper filter.. I've had bad results with K&N's over the years.
I tried different variations, and have ended up with the fuel screws WAAY out.. at 4.25 turns! I can't remember what the needles were at.. I think leaner than what he recommended ...but when I tried to richen up the needles a shim, it wouldn't run well off idle into the mid. I believe the mains are stock size..?. have to check.
Actually, both bikes have run very well in my IMHO. VERY crisp off idle, will roll-on smoothly right up through the range. No bogs or obvious flat spots. Very light carbon in pipe end; although recent checks showed plugs a little bit WHITISH.. not bad. I've done many miles wih this config. Maybe the bikes are not as punchy on top end as could be, but seems f'ing strong to me, and is plenty-good. I also only get about 32 mpg on the highway. I accept this as being a High Performance trade-off.
I have to take the carbs off soon for a cleaning and adjustment, so I'll post my exact settings.
PS One thing I've noticed is that both bikes seem very sensitive to dirty air cleaners.. even if they don't LOOK really dirty.
I actually live near Ivan, have known him for years. I think his repair shop is closed for Winter; as soon as he opens again I'll stop over and bring up the subject.
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Hey China. Now you've got me curious again. I never did really go for setting the screws above 4 turns because nobody talked about going that far. Maybe this year I'll start out with the clips at second from top position and try the screws at 4.25. If you talk to Ivan, let me know.
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I'm a little leary of going past 4 turns myself. I think Ivan should have included size 20 pilot jets (vs. the stock 15's) with his kit... then you'd only be going out about 2 turns on the A/F screws.
Next time I take out my carbs, I think I'll try installing 20's.
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Okay, I just checked tonight. This is what I've been running on two (consecutive) 1st Gen B12's :
Mains: 117 (stock)
Pilots: 37.5 (stock)
Needles: second clip down from top.No spacer.
fuel screws: yes, FOUR and a quarter turns out.
I have the famous 20 holes drilled in back of the airbox, and have removed the rubber snorkel. On the exhaust side it's a stock header with a Yosh RS3 end can.
I've been running it this way for a long time... (two bikes, probably 20,000 miles). It seems crisp, but just lately I've been gettting some instability just off idle. I pulled one plug the other day and it looked a little whitish in the center.. nothing extreme,.. but I may be tinkering again soon.
But otherwise, the bike pulls cleanly right up from idle to redline without a flat spot. I imagine I'm not doing it BEST.. and with more F'ing around could improve it. I'm thinking about larger mains... but I seem to recall DOING all this four years ago, and settled on what I've got now.
Anyone wants to try this weird set-up, I'm really curious to see what they find. So far it's worked for me.
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Pilots 37.5? Wow. That's a long way from stock 15s. I upped mine to 20s but maybe I do need to up mine again to get smooth cruising thru town at 2 to 4 grand. Waddya think? Of course mine's an 06 model and there could be a different setup for 1st gen B12s. As a matter of fact I've heard people talk about 1st gen mixture settings at 2 to 3 turns so, with the factory setting on the latest models being at 3.5 turns, I guess they are.
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Pilots 37.5? Wow. That's a long way from stock 15s.
Of course mine's an 06 model and there could be a different setup for 1st gen B12s.
Yes, the 1st Gens are completely different from the 2nd Gens.
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fwiw I have a 00 b12 s . Ivans jet kit, yosh muffler , K&N airfilter, airbox mod
I can get mpg`s into the upper 20`s on the weekend rides . if I am in fuel consevation mode I can get near 50 .I average 39-42 lately
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Hey, Froggie..
Can you tell us what your carb settings are?
Mains
Pilots
needle positions
fuel screw turns out
...and does your bike run cleanly/evenly, etc. with these settings?
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PS.. with my settings I get about 32 mpg on the highway, running 75-90 mph.
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PPS... my own fuel screw settings were about 3 3/4 tuns out, not 4 1/4 as previously reported... but as my plugs had a SLIGHT taste of gray on th tips, I'm turning them all out to 4 and try that.
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currently , 2 3/4 turns out ,middle clip position , stock pilots . I dont remember what mains but they are what was sent in the jet kit . it runs pretty good with a slight cold stumble at 1700 rpm`s till warm then just smooth all over .
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(http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l11/toadman/Ivans3.jpg)
I took the PAIRS right off but I always wondered what Ivan was talking about in these instructions under 'Disable Air Induction System'
For example in #1 he is referring to the main air hose from the PAIRS unit as the vacuum hose. I guess it is technally a vacuum but there is a small vacuum hose that operates the unit going to the carb. And #2 refers to the large diameter hole in the airbox. The only other holes in mine are the blowby hose from the engone top and the drain in the bottom of the airbox. Surely he is not referring to the stock inlet hole? Naw. I didn't get a plug for that from him. But, if I reinstall the pairs system to try to decrease decel pop I am assuming the main hose from the system to the airbox remains plugged at both the box and the unit, right? And the vacuum remains hooked up to allow the unit to work to help with decel pop? Or not? I don't get it? You see I said before it made no difference in decel pop for me with it on but I actually had the vacuum disconnected. So, if it helps with it connected I'll definately put it on.
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I have the same setup as you. I asked the same questions as you. My bike stock would get anywhere fron 49-51 mpg. Jet kit(Ivans) TwoBrothers pipe and the milage went down to 44 mpg, then it dropped to 28 mpg :shock: :duh: :?:, I had another mechanic look at it and the milage did not move. Months later I checked and the boots to the carbs were loose. Tightened them and the milage went to 31 mpg. Had another mech look at it and he found nothing. Put a K&N in it to lean it out and on a trip I got 40 mpg. On long trips I try not to get on it too much. It runs rich, I can smell the fuel. I talked to another home yard mech, he says that my needles need to be lowered?????
It rides good, has plenty of power, and I like it.
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Took her out the other day. Needles set to the middle pos., screws at 3.75 turns. Loud decel pop but who cares. Running very nice now and I DID make sure the filter was nice and clean. No noticable richness and it launches like a rocket at 4 grand. There are sooo many little things you have to watch out for when you pop the tops on those carbs. Those tiny o rings; don't lose em and make damn sure they are properly seated when you secure the caps. Same goes for the diaphrams. They HAVE to be sittin down right. And, before all that, the needle plugs themselves. Don't do what I did and have one pop out on you on some long cross country ride or you'll be sitting in the 100 degree heat in your riding gear on the roadside with your little toolkit trying to find the problem. Luckily, I did after a half an hour. Just make sure they are securely seated with a pop and a twist!