Ivanized...with a problem

[Ronin]

OK, hear's the deal ladies and gents,

I installed Ivan’s Carb Kit, finally, and fired it up for a test run yesterday evening.  It started up OK with little use of the choke and idled fine but when I pulled out of the drive way as soon as I got off the clutch and on the gas it stuttered (and sounded like someone beating a drum really fast or a L-twin uncorked) from initial clutch release up to about 4K.

It’s done this before when the bike has sat for a week but after driving for a mile to the next stop light the problem normally disappears.

So the poor girl has been sitting for about 2 months prior to startup because of various reasons and only had 87 grade pump gasoline in the tank w/ no additives like Stabil.

Again, it ran poorly from off idle to 4K and after 4K until 10K ran like a rocket was strapped to it.  When I tried to run it under 4K in 2nd and 3rd while rolling it didn’t have the same problem, it acted normal.  It would only stutter from a dead start.

I ran it for about 20min before shutting it down with three dead stop starts; the air temp was about 50F with about 60% humidity.  I’m at about 50ft elevation above MSL (20mi North of Houston, TX in a town called Spring).  It idled fine after the 20min but she had a strong smell of gasoline at the tailpipe.

I set up the carb kit and air box per Ivan instructions (3.5 turns out on each carb, e-clip is in 3rd position, etc) and checked it twice before putting it all back together.  I carb tuned it (after the kit install with a separate fuel tank and with separate gasoline that has Stabil in it), valve balanced it (b/f install), and put new spark plugs in (b/f install) and I’m running Stock NGK’s.

Burns a little oil but nothing major (1/4 quart to ½ quart per 3K miles).  She has about 20K miles on her and she’s a 2002 B12 with a Yosi can (RS2 I think, whatever Ivan recommended with the carb kit).

Any ideas:?:

Matt

[CWO4GUNNER]

First off you always want to install these kits when the engine is tuned and operating normally, never as a remedy to an existing problem.
Second you need to be very familiar with the procedures resolving any questions you have with the shop manual and decide whether to do the air box and exhaust modification in conjunction with jet and needle changes (highly recommended).
Third you must be careful not to mis reassemble the diaphragms and O-rings when installing the jets and needles and that no plastic pieces from drilling the air box got into the intake.
Lastly be prepared to perform a carb synchronization after every thing is installed.

[pmackie]

Hey Matt

Don't be afraid to call or E-Mail Ivan, as he likely has some suggestions.

It sound like you are a little rich at small throttle openings. BUT before you change anything, run that old gas out, and try some fresh stuff. If you continue to have the same issues with the fresh gas, then I would try the following:
1. Turn the air screws IN to 3.25 or even 3.0 turns out.

if this doesn't help, then
2. move the needle clip to the 2nd notch from the top

This assumes you have a new, clean, air filter? If not, change that first!!!

Keep us informed...

[Ronin]

Hey guys,

Yeah, the only prob prior to the tune was the slight oil loss but it's had that issue since I got it four years ago without worsening progression.

It has the 20 3/8" holes drilled per Ivan's instructions and the can was recommended with the kit per Ivan.  And all drilling of the holes was done well away from the engine and I razored all loose pieces I noticed.  The filter is a brand new stock style air filter and the mesh screen is still in place in case I did miss a few pieces of plastic and they happened to make it past the filter itself.

All 4 diaphragms and small o-rings were intact while re-assembling and the carb sych was done post completion of installation.

I was leaning towards the gasoline contributing to the problem and I'm hoping this is a MAJORITY of the problem, the other portion being that I am running rich.

I think I'll call Ivan tomorrow and see what he says.

Thanks guys!

Matt

[Red01]

If the bike has sat for a couple of months with untreated gas, the first thing I'd do is check it out after you get fresh gas in it.  Since it only has this strouble taking off, you might prefer to get some enjoyment out of the old gas by riding it out rather than draining it and having to deal with what to do with the waste.

[smooth operator]

 Once you start with fresh gas,and your ready to fine tune jet sizes,needle potion,fuel screws adj, do 1 thing at a time. Take notes each time you make a adjustment. Take a plug reading,check color at end of exhaust, try running steady @ different rpm. I found what works good for some may not work for you. And welcome to carbs 101,I think I had mine out 8-9 times befor I got my 1st Gen. where I wanted   Dan

[Ronin]

Here’s the latest.

I drove around town for about 20-30 miles to burn off some of the old gasoline and as I drove things seemed to be getting better.  So I stop to get some gas and after filling up I hit the starter button and nothing.  I’m thinking, man that’s strange, she usually starts right up no matter what after running that much.  So after much praying and swearing I had to almost open it up full throttle to get it started because even with the choke on she wasn’t starting.

So I get ‘er home and all the way there it’s stuttering in the entire RPM range if I get on the throttle.

At home I decided to check the airbox drain tube that dumps out near the junction of the midpipe and out comes about ½ a cup of gasoline.  YES!

Well, I decide to look at the service manual in the fuel section after consulting the board on this extra fuel in the wrong place issue and it’s saying the needle valve is most likely clogged with something and causing the free flow of gasoline.

So I decide to look into the tank to see if sitting around for 2mo caused any problems as have been described in the past on the board about rust in the tank and presto there’s a little in a few spots around the bottom.  Not sure if this is the issue or something bigger and badder but I guess I’ll be taking floats off to see which one might be the culprit.

I have a few questions though before float removal:
1.   How would I tell which one is the clogged one?
2.   Can a spray carb cleaner into the valve without disassembling everything and not cause damage to the needle or do I need to take the whole float and needle valve assembly out and clean them gently?
3.   And even then, is there a good way to know if it’s truly unclogged?

[Red01]

1. The clogged one is the one with stuff in it.
2. Yes, but disassembly will be the most thorough method.
3. As far as jets go, when you can see thru them and they're clear of all obstruction. Internal passages are more difficult as you can't always see from one end to the other, so you have to rely more an a good cleaning and blowing through the passages with air.  This is why a disassmble job is better.  Strip the carb of all gaskets and o-rings and soak the metal parts in a dip type carb cleaner per their instructions. If you can source some tiny scrub brushes that can pass through the passageways, that's best.

[Rocketjock]

I had growing pains with Ivan's kit also. But I know it front to back now. I have a 2Bros can and a stage 1 kit with the 20 drilled holes. Is yours stage 1? I also have a new bike (06) in perfect running order. At first, with the needles set in the center position I had fairly bad running up to four grand. then I used the supplied shims (which, by the way raises the needles a half a position) and found it ran better. Then, moving the clip to the next position down the needle gave me more smoothness at lower revs but not as good as stock. This seemed like a pilot issue to me so I traded out the stock 15 pilots for 20s. This is how I operated the bike all last summer. But, frankly, richening it up that much makes it feel like stock power only and even a bit boggy on the throttle. The real midrange power boost was obtained by the recommended setting, ie. clip in the centerposition and running kinda shitty like at lower revs. I've now set it back to this and have learned to live with the 3 grand misfire and that incredable rush you get when you hit 5 grand.

[Ronin]

Hey Rocketjock,

I read your summary post on the 2Bros, the Ivan kit install, and tuning and I'm assuming when you say stage 1 you're referring to the 112.5 mains, A/F screws turned out 3.5 turns, tapered needles with e-clip in the 2nd from the bottom position and the air box mod and if so then yes this is what I'm running (with the Yoshi slip-on).

And I did feel what you're explaining in the beginning but when I got a new tank of gas on the drive home it was stuttering throughout the RPM range (when I got on the throttle) and when I pulled the airbox drain hose it squirted gas out everywhere so I'm leaning to a needle valve sticking.

I do appreciate very much the advice on what to expect when I get the fuel system cleaned up and I refrain from tinkering too much based on your experiences.

Matt

Oh and Red01

1. The clogged one is the one with stuff in it.

I guess that's what I get when I ask a stupid question. 

Thanks for the cleaning advice.  I guess I've got a little more work ahead of me.

[pmackie]

Hey Ronin

Remember, once you get the airbox drained, and have fixed the leaking Float Needle, remember you WILL need to change the air filter again. Even though you said it was new, it will likely be soaked with fuel and junk and will not pass air like a new, clean one.

I refrain from tinkering too much

Remember, tinkering is all part of the Bandit experience...(in my opinion anyway )

You'll get it, and once you do, it will be great.

[Rocketjock]

Oh ya, Ronin. There was one other little thing that caused me a lot of grief. Make sure those needle housings are securely plugged in. On a cruise to the interior last summer, the bike started misfiring more and more until it was running on only three cylinders. I did a roadside carb job to find out that one of the needles had become unseated. Just be extra careful of that. It was just no fun at all!

[smooth operator]

 Rocket, It will be the cylinder with the fouled plug.But if you have rust in the tank it will be all of them untill you coat the tank.Get one of those cream kits,follow directions,give a couple coats. We use laquer thinner @ the shop to clean it real good 1st. Dan

[smooth operator]

  Oh ya, when you coat the tank,make sure you take you petcock off 1st, I've seen pepole come back to my buddy's shop that done it themselves w/o removing and plugging the petcock. 
  New petcock fixes that.  Dan

[Rocketjock]

One last bit of advice on the air box drilling. After drilling just take a propane torch to the holes to clean up any rough edges. And as for the needle set up. My instructions say "needle position- 2 to 3 range, counting from top." I started at 3 range(middle) with mixture screws turned out closer to 4 turns, as he says 3.5 to 4 turns. It is possible to dial it in. It just takes time and a feel for it. Good luck.