Author Topic: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit  (Read 56002 times)

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2011, 04:04:04 AM »
Do you have the hole cut to 1.5" in the top of the airbox or is it closed up? Are the jets stock? I'm assuming you have a Bandit 1200 GEN2(2001-2006) Sounds like the former owner just popped a slip on without jetting the bike which made the already lean jetting even more lean. If you don't put any jets in there but shim the needle and turn the mixture screws out a bit you'll probably be fine for now. Your float height is probably fine I wouldn't start there. See below:


Just go with mikuni jets. Either 110 or 112.5. Most people are fine with the 110's but some other guys need 112.5. If you are only a little off with the 110's and pop 112.5s in there you may have to reduce the shims on the needle by one or two.

If you have just a slip on and everything stock with no jetting changes, drilling out the mixture screw plugs and turning them out a 1/4 turn or so will help alot. If you don't want to drill an extra hole in the airbox lid and keep the airbox closed, my friend got really good results with a 102.5 Mainjet and a mixture screw adjustment and a Yosh slip on.

If you want to go the stock airbox route I would do this to start:

snorkle in
102.5's main jets
3 turns out on the mixture screws (that is stock may need another 1/4 turn)
get some shims for the needle

If you want to go with the poor man's stage 1:

1.5" hole in the airbox lid, snorkle in
110 mains to start(get some 112.5's in case as they are only a few bucks each)
3.5 to 4 turns on the mixture screws
shim the needles as necessary


FLOAT HEIGHT FOR ALL CARBS(GEN2 1200cc 2001-2006): 13mm

These are the main jets you need:(n100/604)

http://www.gearheadcanada.com/eshopprod_cat_6814-62413-62504_product_1080883_keyword_main+AND+jets.MAIN_JET_FOR_MIKUNI_N100604.htm
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 04:33:18 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2011, 06:18:30 AM »
Ya mines an 03 1200 with 5000 miles. Sweet man thanks a ton :beers:

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2011, 09:55:33 AM »
Are your A/F mixture screw plugs drilled out? If so I got good results just turning out all the mixture screws to 3 turns out to start, mine were all over the place from the factory. You can start a 3 turns out then maybe turn them out to 3 1/4 turns as a stopgap measure until you get new jets. You can also go to radio shack and buy some shims for the needles. One or two shms will help alot until you get new jets.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2011, 12:44:18 PM »
Winter is just starting here in MN so I'll tear it apart, clean everything and reinstall with the new jets. I wont be able to ride it till april or may.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2011, 02:00:24 PM »
Heres a tip on drilling out the mixture screws:

get a drill bit thats smaller than the mixture plugs and put a piece of tape 1/4" from the tip of the drill bit. This is so you don't drill too deeply as you don't want to kill the mixture screws. Drill CAREFULLY to make the centre hole large enough so you can screw in a self taping screw into the plug. After the screw is tight in there you can just use some pliers and the screw and the plug will pop right out. To adjust the mixture screws screw clockwise or in until the mixture screw is starting to resist. Do not screw in tight, just enough so you know that they are bottomed out. Mark with a marker where the screw has stopped. Then unscrew 3 turns from fully in. This will get you to the stock setting.

Once the carbs are on the bike you can just use a screw driver bit to adjust them in or out as necessary. My guess is you will probably have to go out at least a 1/4 of a turn with the stock airbox setup.

Heres fast larry's diagram which should help



You need to shim the needles here is the part numbers from radio shack. Shimming raises the needle(makes it richer) at midrange. If you don't shim it will be weak at mid-range.

Radio shack part # 64-3022A


I would leave the stock pilots in there(15's) instead of going one up. I went one up and had a hell of a time as the recommended turns are 3.75 with the stage 1. I was waaaayyy too rich down low as you can see by my sig I'm at 2.25 turns out with the 17.5's and I still think it may be a touch rich down low. If you do go with the larger pilots(17.5) I would start at 2 turns out and go up from there. One size pilot up or down equals 1 and a half turns so my 2.25(17.5) is a 3.75 equivalent(15) but I had to do a crazy hunt for that information from factory pro. Save yourself some time and stick with the stock pilots. If you have to go more than 4.5 turns then go up one on the pilots but I doubt you need that much. I may pop in the stock pilots in the spring myself.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 04:51:18 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2011, 05:12:34 PM »
On the stock needles about how many shims would you recommend?? Im going to go with the 112.5, 1.5 hole in the lid, the snorkels already gone and stock air filter. I really dont think anything was change like I stated after the can was added.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2011, 05:35:41 PM »
Bummer about the snorkel(velocity stack), it aides in the low end and smooths the air going into the airbox. No wonder you're super lean with larger throttle inputs! I can't remember how large the Radio Shack shims were, and I gave them to another forum member, but I think they were about double the thickness of the holeshot ones, so maybe 2 or 3 on each needle should get you close. Since you don't have the snorkel then you will definitely need the 112.5's or maybe even higher. The snorkle does alot more than people think. I think you can buy a replacement for about $20 if the 112.5's aren't enough. Just cut the 1.5" for now because even if it's too lean you just go buy a snorkle and it should clear it up.

If you want to test or you feel that there is too much air with the snorkel out, you can tape up a little of either the top 1.5" hole or the 2" snorkel area. If you tape up a 1/4 of the snorkel area that would be the equivalent of having the snorkel in, in terms of overall air intake.Here is the specs for the air intake with and without the snorkel and the 1.5" hole:

Stock:

1.5" hole with snorkel

1.5" total
-------------------------------------------
Stage one:

1.5" airbox lid hole
1.5" hole with snorkle

3" total
-------------------------------------------
Stage one without snorkel:

1.5" hole in airbox lid
2" hole without snorkel

3.5" total.


Found the snorkel at www.bikebandit.com $19.37

Part #1051854

Try it without it and see how it goes it may be perfect. Most people are fine with the 110's but since you have extra air going in there the 112.5's will probably be very close.

I would recomend getting the 5 degree advancer once everything is setup at
http://www.holeshot.com/bandit/bndt_advancer.shtml

It really crispins up the throttle response and it's dead easy to install.

Oh I forgot to ask you what filter is in there? Hopefully it's the stock Suzuki filter, if you have a K&N it will be too lean without jetting. That would be a double whammy of leaness! All these setups use the OEM Suzuki filter.

The stock one should look white and the K&N should look red. If you don't want to take the lid or the tank off just remove the document tray and look inside the air intake.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 06:09:02 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2011, 06:12:35 PM »
I dont know the previous owner I think had it some where there were alot of mice, the snorkel was gone and he had wire mesh covering the hole. But overall the bike was well taken care of dam near showroom condtion when I got it. I thought about selling it to get into a fuely, its just so much easier to through a pc on and get it tuned. But its a great bike and does 2up riding awesome I just wish I could get 120 plus hp out of it with out dumping a ton of money into it. I guess thats why I got a my gsxr 1000 racer to feed the need LOL

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2011, 09:20:26 PM »
Guys, remembering my setup (poor mans stage 1 112.5 mains, needles at full rich E clip on lowest notch, pilots at 4 turns out, 1.5" hole with snorkle in - for all intents and purposes i'm at sea level) is fitted with a K&N. Plugs are showing that it's pretty well spot on. I'm finding the current setting is excellent but could do with an advancer to sharpen up the throttle response when in the lower RPM range <5,000rpm - especially when commuting and you need a burst of acceleration.

On my 1250 EFI, I have a X-TRE and FI Tuner PRO, Healtech map loaded, TBR slipon (imagine a stormwater drain you can drive a truck through, that's the amount of baffling the pipe has  :grin:)   and the stock airbox and filter - less the pigs snout snorkle.
The 1200 will power wheelie with abandon when in 2nd gear, above 6000rpm and you crack the throttles wide open (none of this clutching business).
The 1250 just won't. It just accelerates. Could be that it's about 50kg heavier (ABS and full fairing). It just feels like it's starving for air.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2011, 09:27:14 PM by Octane »
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2011, 10:55:08 PM »
So I guess that 1/4 turn in helped you out eh Octane? Nice! The problem with the Bandit 1250 is that even with the snorkel removed there is still not enough air getting into the airbox. You have to realize Suzuki, and for that matter all the bike manufacturers, are hobbling everything that comes out the door to try and meet the super strict regulations of the most strict market that they sell to.

For example motorcycles in Canada are totally exempt from any smog or emissions/global warming crap at all. If you could weld 2 Humvee engines and stick it on a motorcycle chassis somehow, you could have an open hole for the exhaust. However in Europe where they really bought into that global warming fraud, if it pumps out any more than a '70's 50cc 2-stroke there is problems. However Europe is a huge market(or used to be who knows now)for motorcycle sales so Suzuki and all the others play it safe and makes their bikes work for the toughest of the smog regulations, not how the bike should run.

So basically they kill off like 1/3 of the potential horsepower before it goes out the door. However they are not that dumb so they put all the parts on there so once it gets into the target country the owners can just fix it themselves. If they PERMANENTLY killed off the horsepower then there goes their motorcycle market. So basically its a phucked up game between the fraudsters, the government and the motorcycle manufacturers. I'm sure you guys all have had used bikes before, remember how large the air intake on those early eighties/late 70's bikes were like? They were all normal sized. Hell my last bike before this which is a SACS 750 engine, my '84 GS750EF had double the stock air intake than my Bandit 1200 with only slightly more than half the displacement. I had a Yosh exhaust on there and the previous owner did a jet kit and guess what? No extra holes in the Airbox because it was serviced by an appropriate air intake. The only thing next was Pods.

Really all this drilling the airbox is a symptom of the silliness the bike manufacturers are subjected to. For example in Octanes example the Next Generation of Bandit the 1250 is hobbled even MORE than the previous generation. You also look at in the specs. Even though the previous generation used a powerplant designed in the eighties and only has 5 gears not 6 it still beats the 1250 in 1/4 mile times stock for stock. That means even though the new Bandit has more displacement it's actually putting out less peak potential horsepower to the wheels, there is more torque however but all this is at a cost. Its also heavier which doesn't help.

With Dale from Holeshot's stage 2 which basically removes some of the back of the airbox he's getting another 22 horespower and removing the back of the airbox entirely, and killing the extra butterflies in the throttle bodies with a full system hes pumping out 32 horsepower, which is how every bike should be run really. Now if you look at the previous generation the with everything in the engine stock(no hot cams, etc) with a stage 2 and a full system you are getting a total potential horsepower of 19 over stock.

So now look at the 2 generations:

For this demonstration we will assuming they both are getting around 100 horsepower which isn't too far off.

GEN1/GEN2/GEN3:
Horsepower: 100
Total potential stock: +19
Total hobbling: %19

GEN4:
Horsepower: 100
Total potential stock: +32(WOW!)
Total hobbling: %32


As you can see as the restriction get tougher the total potential hobbling gets worse and worse. This demonstration is all stock except the breathing of the engine. Even my stage 1 kit which add about 13 horsepower has really only reduced the hobbling to 6%.

I remember back in the day people would boast about an extra 5 or 6 horsepower with their bikes. Were the engines that shit back in the day? No, they were less hobbled out of the factory.

Who knows maybe in the future we will have a Bandit 1500 putting out 20 horespower through a thimbal sized air intake. The only real way to ADD horsepower is through engine modification, hotter cams, porting, better pistons, etc. Really all these jet kits are doing is restoring the potential peak power of the engine as it came out of the factory. However, if Holeshot or Factory Pro advertised "13% less hobbling!!" no one would buy their jet kits so they claim they are "adding" horsepower which I guess technically is true but really your just fixing it to what it should have come out of the factory.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 09:36:04 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2011, 10:56:58 PM »
Ive ridden my buddies 1250 and from what I remember it did feel heavier. But ya my bike needs the up grade!! :thumb:

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2011, 02:09:17 AM »
I will be doing the 1.5" hole in the lid trick on the 1250 shortly. Yoshimura make a pair of cams for this engine.
A guy here in Oz fitted these along with a PCV + AB mod and got some impressive power along with rideability.
From memory is was in the realm of 140HP. :thumb: $1000 for the cams.

The 1200 can benefit from either 1 or both cams from a GSXR1100. Again very impresive HP gains.
I have a brand new turbo here from a Laser TX3 1600.............. :trustme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV16K6Z6GDA
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 02:19:47 AM by Octane »
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2011, 09:25:18 AM »
Hi Octane! I'm not sure about the 1250 needing exactly 1.5", maybe someone here can pipe up who owns the the 1250. You should be getting more horsepower than the air cooled engine mod for mod as you can't beat displacement and the 1250 engine is more modern. I think from what info I gathered is you cut the airbox lid almost entirely off but leave enough of it to hold a K&N filter in place. The EFI box you have is it the one that Dale sells where basically you have mixture like screws to adjust fuel level in the rpm ranges plus fuel boost and tune the engine that way? Then it would be a snap to adjust the EFI to compensate for whatever you do to the thing, whether its pods or an airbox mod. I'm imagining since the 1250 is hobbled even more than the SACS Bandit(see chart above) you would need this sort of setup rather than a 1.5" extra hole, it may not be enough. If you can adjust the fuel mixtures either by user programmable map or those little screws then by all means experiment. If it all goes to hell you could always just by a new lid for the airbox/tape up the holes and start again.

I would for now not remove any secondary butterfly's, etc and maybe just do baby steps until you get a feel for the fuel mapping. I don't have any experience personally with fuel mapping but I'm imagining its probably more accurate and easier then swapping jets and experimenting. If you are comfortable with the adjusting the fuel injection then maybe you are right and putting a 1.5" hole might be a good stepping stone. Maybe for fun put the snorkel back in there and add a 1.5" hole this will still be larger than just the snorkel removed, then tune it up until it runs well. Then remove the snorkel, adding more air, tune it up, etc. This way you can get a feel for the power gains and you're not making such abrupt changes to the jetting.

Remember the more hobbling the greater the potential gains. Below 5000 rpm with your setup on your SACS Bandit you will lose some low end torque, if you don't have the snorkel installed, install it and adjust the mixtures, that will help with the low range. I think the advancer may also help a bit down low but I haven't done any real testing. When I bought my kit from Dale I just installed it and rode off I guess maybe I should have jetted it then tested without the advancer. I know I've lost a little down low but gained a shitload in the mid and upper range, a good trade off. Also the little I've lost is negligible and it's not like I can't pass a car at a stoplight, as soon as you've gone 20 ft you start getting in the sweeter spots of the rpm range anway. On a track day I doubt you'll be below 4k. I would suggest buying the advancer for the fact that it really crispins the throttle and reduces throttle lag big time. If I hammer the throttle its just a big wallop of power, not a tiny pause, then power.

I'm imagine at low rpm where the power is less any help to get the power to come on quicker is going to help you so by all means buy the advancer.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 10:00:41 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2011, 10:26:36 AM »
I dont know the previous owner I think had it some where there were alot of mice, the snorkel was gone and he had wire mesh covering the hole. But overall the bike was well taken care of dam near showroom condtion when I got it. I thought about selling it to get into a fuely, its just so much easier to through a pc on and get it tuned. But its a great bike and does 2up riding awesome I just wish I could get 120 plus hp out of it with out dumping a ton of money into it. I guess thats why I got a my gsxr 1000 racer to feed the need LOL

To be honest it seems the previous owner really didn't know what the hell he was doing. You can't just increase airflow without increasing the fueling or you're LOSING power. Put it this way the jets are so cheap I just gave them away to Octane. It cost me a total of $16 so maybe $12 in the States? So $12 and an hour of work for 12-15 more horsepower gain I think is a good trade off. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than a power commander >$300. Since you don't have the snorkel in there when you get the 112.5's I would definitely use the stock OEM filter and not a K&N it will be just too lean. If you like the K&N for it's re-usability then go buy the $20 snorkel from bike bandit. However the K&N flows better but it also allows more dirt into the engine, you may want to change your oil slightly more frequently.

With the setup you have you maybe only getting like 80-85 horsepower max instead of the stock 100-104. Plus with all that air and no extra fuel down low is probably weak as well. Fortunately for you though at least the most expensive parts of the equation have already been paid for which is the slip on from Holeshot. So instead of the total cost being $300 it's now down to $12 and the time to install the jets and drill or cut a 1.5" hole in the airbox cover. Lucky you!

I've seen this alot on other bikes I've bought where the previous owner reads something in a magazine and only gets it half right and phucking it up in the process. Then you pick the bike up cheap and just do an hour of work and the bike rips.

For example I'm guessing your getting about 80-85 horsepower due to the fact the bike is super lean(might be less who knows?). So now add 110's or 112.5's and jet it properly suddenly 80 horsepower turns into 115. Trust me you're going to notice that extra 35 horsepower!!

What I would do if you have the time is drain the carb floatbowls and take number 4 floatbowl off as you can do it while it's on the bike. Just get a rachet that will accept screw driver bits. If the float bowls still have the brass screws it probably hasn't been jetted. Take the float bowl off and carefully unscrew the mainjet. Be careful as it's soft brass and read the number on the jet. If it says 100 it still has the stock jets in there and you know 100% that it hasn't been jetted which just from your description is what I'm guessing. If you just wanted to keep the airbox the way it is I would go with maybe 105's or 107.5's.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 11:08:34 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2011, 01:30:32 PM »
I like the idea if the 1.5 stage kit LOL. It dosent sound all that hard to achieve what were all talking about. I had an 2000 sv 650 I did an poor man kit on and it worked really well, you talk about double takes when your keeping up and passing 600s on a track day!! All this info is great guys this is awesome I totaly love the motorcycle community the way we all help each other :thanks: :beers: