Author Topic: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit  (Read 56004 times)

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2011, 08:57:26 PM »
Ya thats funny about the (cold dyno) a guy at my local race org claimed his r6 put out 130 rwh. He had proof the dyno sheet said the shop temp was about 35* f, on that same dyno same bike during the summer it made 122. He would of had to put ton of money into that bike to get 130, thats about the horse power #s of the old formula extreme class bikes.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2011, 12:48:59 AM »
Colder air = denser air = More oxygen = more power.

Thats why they have nitrous oxide. The nitrogen is just a catalyst for the oxygen being pumped into the cylinders.

Thats why all dynos worth their salt have the ambient temperature in the dyno runs. Usually most shops will have a climate controled shop so that they are a standard 70 degrees which is sort of average summer temperature.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 09:33:37 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2011, 03:05:29 AM »
Here's another one. Say I'm looking for more HP (yep, okay I'm really looking for more HP). The Holeshot stage II kit is a natural progression. Only thing is this bike is my primary method of transport so riding in the rain is a reality. My K6 has a different airbox to the K5 whereas there are no side overs to protect the pods from water ingress. So the question is how much can I go with (WRT jet size) the standard airbox, K&N and the lid sawn off? The stage II kit jets are up there in the 150's (correct me if I'm wrong).
What brought this on was I ventured into the 8,000rpm+  zone today with wide open throttles but was a little underwhelmed.
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2011, 08:03:04 AM »
It could be that the K&N you have in there is pulling too much air at high RPM which would mean you would have to go maybe another jet size up. Maybe 115's or 117.5's. To test this theory, pop in the stock filter which flows less air and try high RPM's again. Remember the Bandit gets max horsepower at round 8,500 or so so revving much past that just is less power. I always am amused by people on youtube who rev to redline then shift, it's actually less acceleration then just sticking in the power band. Remember the Bandit's stock cams are made for mid-range power not top end.

For fun Octane pop in the stock filter, ignore any low end richness for now and try it. If the power is better it may be worth it to tune the bike with the stock filter on there. It wouldn't be hard, you may just have to turn the mixture screws in a 1/4 turn or 1 or 2 less shims on the needle is all, it would be close without any adjusting. Or maybe enlarge the top hole, take out the snorkle, etc. The stock filter also stops dirt better so you would have to change the oil less. I would guess that without the back of the airbox on there, since the power is almost the same as the pods it would actually be close to the 147.5 to 150's you use with the pods. The bonus of the airbox version is it may be a little bit better in wet weather which would be good for me because the bike is my primary vehicle.

I think the pods would probably be "ok" in wet weather as long as you were moving but the outside cylinders would still be a bit richer with wider throttle openings in the wet and if you parked the right side might get a little more rain than the left. The good thing is that the bandit's side cover almost cover the entire airbox intake boots right up to the carb so the Bandit is probably better than most other bikes with pods in wet weather. At least the gen 2 bikes anyway. That's why I would recommend using the side covers with the pods.

Try the stock filter thing first as it's the easiest and easily reversible. Also since this bike cam profile is for mid-range power I would shift around 9,500 rpm max without more aggressive cams. This bike has got an awesome mid-range so get out there and use it!!! :-)

If you wanted to experiment with your own "poor mans stage 2 airbox mod" maybe for fun maybe either buy another airbox lid or if you wanted just tape the edges of the K&N filter in there temporarily and try say 140's or 137.5's(just a guess) or something and see what that gives you. The good thing is your like an expert now on reading the plugs so an hours ride in varying traffic, high speed, low speed etc. you can look at the plugs and see if you need to go up or down. You may actually have to go one up on the pilots if you're over 4.5 turns on the mixture screws. Focus on the high speed as you're seeing if new mains will help. I believe you also take out the internal metal screen inside the airbox that the filter sits on but I wouldn't do that until your confident your very close with whatever you use with just taping the edges of the filter in there without the airbox lid. That way if it goes to hell you could always just switch back to the 112.5's and the airbox lid.

I don't know what the exact numbers are but you should get another few horses up top and I believe max power is attained around 9,000 which is a little higher. If you really want to go jihad get yourself some GSXR750 or GSXR1100 cams which moves max power up further and you get a huge increase in top end power however down low and mid range suffers a bit. The max you can get is around 120 horses without any engine work(no cams, porting, etc) which is pretty respectable. Since you already have the slip on you just need the stepped headers and voila you have a full system and some pods and there you go, plus as a bonus you keep the awsome mid-range and alot of the low end power.

Once you add the cams you get another 12-16 over that but mid-range and low-end suffers so probably total with both intake and exhaust cams plus a stage 2 with full system is around 135 or so. If you wanted to keep most if not all of the mid range you could just install the intake cam only and that would get you around 126 horsepower or so. So there are lots of options so go crazy experimenting if you like.

For me since I do alot of city traffic stage 1 is fine or maybe stage 2 airbox mod would be the max I would go for now. As soon as you put a stage 2 with pods on there you lose a little mid-range, well you don't actually "lose" mid-range but the mid-range power comes on later in the rpm range, but for around town I won't be running around at 5000 rpm just putting down the street or in traffic so I like that there is more power sooner at the cost of top end which is rarely used on the street. Also the advancer helps the power come on faster so it may be worth your while to buy one from Dale at holeshot. I didn't even drain the oil I just put it on the kick stand so the oil is on the left side of the bike, put a tinfoil pan underneath the timing cover to catch any drips and popped on the new one in like 15 mins.


If you want to know really quickly if you need more juice up top turn the mixture screws out to 4.5 turns, this will increase the overall jetting. Ignore the low speed as it will be rich as hell. But if you turn out the mixture screws and suddenly you have more power up top, you would probably need to go one up on the jets, or alternatively pop in the stock filter. Then when you're done experimenting turn the mixture screws back down to the 4 you have on there now otherwise it will drive like crap below 3000 rpm. If you richen it out temporarily and it drives worse, then you know you are too rich and then try taking out the snorkel temporarily and see if that helps.

When my bike was super rich it was acting like it was lean when hot, lower power, mushy throttle, etc. Since I leaned it out it was wheelie city. Theoretically you could be slightly rich, looking at your plugs there is some sooty deposits on the base ring and the tips of the plugs when you had it at 4.25 turns out. I know you said you turned in the mixture screws to 4 and it cleaned it up a bit. Maybe it needs another 1/4 turn in. Temporarily turning out and turning in the mixture screws will adjust the jetting over the entire range so you can tell if it needs more air or more jet. Just remember that the pilots mostly control the low range so if you turn them out to say to 4.5 and down low drives like crap but top end is awsome then you know you will need to richen out the bike. Turn them back afterwards to where they are supposed to be and go up a main jet size, try not to be tempted to compensate for a rich/lean mainjet with the pilots as it throws the jetting off all over.

Just looking again at your plugs I would say your slightly rich rather than lean and most of it seems down low so for fun go to 3.75 and see if it gives you a little more oomph. Since your in Northern Australia it's probably a tropical or sub-tropical climate so it doesn't need as much jet as colder climes. This helped me. I started the bike cold on the centre stand(keeps the fuel level in the bowls) and let it sit there warming up. As it was warming up I was revving it once and a while noting if the throttle response was getting better or worse. When it was super rich, I was noticing that as it was warming up the throttle response was getting mushier and mushier so I knew I was too rich. This is a good way to do it because your not driving it around and you can concentrate entirely on how the bike is responding to throttle inputs. This gives you an idea of the general jetting, it mostly helps with your pilot and needle settings as your going from a low rpm and revving to a higher which is controlled mostly by needle and pilot. Good luck and tell us how it's going!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 06:14:35 PM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2011, 08:02:35 PM »
I'm going to stick to the stage 1 I think - just tweak it a bit. Advancer and 115 mains probably.
Pulled the plugs again after some "energetic" riding yesterday - all look very similar to the previous picture. Noticed an initial hint of pre-ignition yesterday on standard 91 octane fuel when loading the engine up. Refueled with 95 - fixed that.

Was looking through Dales website - imagine what sort of animal the B12 would be with the big bore kit  (11:1 if you can get that), stage 2 + pods, 2x cams, full 4-2-1 system?  :yikes:
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2011, 09:50:31 PM »
Just think if you could get your hands a on a gsxr 1100 motor, do a mild port and polish, through cams in and everything stated!!! I dont think 150rwh would be out of the question.  :thumb:

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2011, 11:36:18 PM »
He's got a crazy bandit there with 155 horsepower that he drives around town so it's not so crazy that you can't drive it around normally. Did you try Octane to put the mixture screws out to 4.5 to see if it got a little more juice up top? It will be rich as hell down low and drive a little funny but if up top is a little stronger than you know you'll need those 115's. If you look at your plugs it seems a little rich down low at 4 turns out but you may just be compensating for a lean mainjet. I would assume if you did put 115's in there you'd probably end up around 3.5 or 3.75 turns out most likely and may have to remove a shim or two. Definitely get the advancer.

Before you get new mainjets though double check that you really need them it will save you a ton of work. So far your bike seems to run pretty good with 4 turns out and 112.5's in there so you can use that as a baseline. But up top is a little lacking this can be caused by either a lean or a rich condition. It only takes a few minutes of driving to immediately feel if there is more power or less power with these changes.

Step1:
You would want to test first to see if it's a lean condition just because the plugs look a little sooty and it eliminates any doubt that the mainjet may not need to be changed. Turn in the mixture screws to 3.5 temporarily, ignore for now any weirdness down low as we are going to test the top end. Go crazy on the top end, zoom around a little and note if the bike is better or worse up top only. If you want take a plug off the bike after zooming around for 5 or 10 minutes and take a look. Is it cleaner? Did it have more power? If so where in the rpm range. If your pilots were rich you'll notice a little more get up and go up to mid-range however check to see if up top is stronger or weaker.

Step 2:
Do the same except turn the mixture screws out to 4.5, again ignore any down low weirdness as you are testing the top end. Maybe after 5 or 10 minutes of racing around pull the plugs and check again.

Step 3:
Put the screws back to 4 turns out and race around again.

Now in this scenario you've made the bike leaner and richer and back the same so now you have a better idea of where you need to go. It really only takes maybe 20 minutes to do this test and it will definitively tell you if you need those larger jets or that maybe you're too rich and at full throttle it's giving it too much gas. Or that the pilots are adding too much to the mix at 4 turns out and a 1/4 turn in or so may clean it up. Put it this way I can do power wheelies no problem at 2.25 turns out but if I turn out the mixture screws even 1/2 turn my throttle turns into mush, no wheelies, nothing and the base ring and tip gets all sooty.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 12:13:12 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 12:23:25 AM »
Racing around lets go to the track and have some fun!!! These old bandits would work fine, my fiance and I took mine for a parade lap around brainerd and they kicked us off doing 150. I thought they said 50 they ment 150!!

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 12:34:27 AM »
Sorry guys im alittle intoxicated :thumb: But ya i like this bike it commutes awesome and sports just fine. I just got to get them jets in and the spacers on the needles. I would really like to take this thing out on the track after the install and beet up some 600 guys. I went out with my lw 650 and was beeting up on a buel 1125 and bikes like that. It was funny my small bike out there putting the smack down on alot bigger bikes untill they new I was a expert racer LOL. Coming out if turn 3 I would pull on the bigger bikes LOL alot of fun, is it summer yet???

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 05:04:31 AM »
Here's a cam view of a guy on his Bandit at willow springs. He's actually passing some guys on their sport bikes. I'm imagining the Bandit has a bit of a power advantage coming out of the turns as the mid-range torque is larger than a dedicated sportbike. He's not going slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOruVCDUtyU&feature=related

Heres another view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOnD8Zm7n0&feature=related

Geez they really need to resurface that track its turning into a dirt track.

And on the flip side this has got to be the top candidate for LAMEST Bandit video. I like how he zooms in on that shit stock exhaust like it was a cool feature of the bike lol!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VltMu6XAg38&feature=related

Its the video equivalent of blue balls. A big run up, to some old guy triathilon marshal two upping on that kids Bandit. The sandals while riding is a nice touch! I'm sure all those shots of the tachometer revving(with only the shit synth music of course, no engine sound)is going to come in handy ferrying around a triathalon marshal at 10 mph in front of runners.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 05:37:45 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline Octane

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 05:35:07 AM »
Gotta get me some mechanics gloves to do this with a hot engine.
Drags are on next week. Things have come up other times but this time I simply have to get one in before the year's out.
We'll see how we go. Anyone want to take a guess on what ET the B12 sould run with a 100kg pilot?
2006 B12 112.5 Mains, adjustable needles (full rich), std pilots 3.75 turns out, K&N, airbox 1.5" mod, Staintune exh.

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2011, 07:08:45 AM »
If you just take out one of the outside plugs it should give you a good idea of how the bike is generally running. Most times I can get out the plug with just my motorcycle gloves no problem just be a little careful. Although for me I've been burnt and electrocuted so many times by motorcycles I think I'm starting to like it :-(. I think stock is high 11's or low 12's with god knows what pilot on there, maybe thats midget times I don't know. Some times like Dale on his crazy 155 horsepower model is in the high 9's. At least it gives you a range.

Oh and don't use surgeons gloves unless you want to stick to the engine :-) A few trapshoots at a drag strip would definitely help you tune that upper range. Plus there are a few guys around to get an opinion when you pull the plugs. Just looking at the picture of your plugs that sooty base ring is a sure sign of overall richness, combine this with the sooty tip and I'll wager a 1/4 turn in would help. I realize you've already turned them in a 1/4 so that will help but it could use maybe a little leaner setting. If you use the crazy instructions above at least you'll get an idea. Pilots control 25% of the jetting so turning them in or out does affect the overall jetting. Because the electrodes look pretty good, no streaks of soot, etc You are probably fine on the needles and the mainjet. They do however look a little dark, that and the rich low end adds up. If you lean the pilots to where they should be the plugs get cleaned up all the way, the power comes on harder. A rich lowend will be mushy down low so you're low end will improve as well. I'll try and find a digital camera and I'll take a picture of one of my plugs which look good with a nice light but full turn of colour on the base ring, but you'll notice I have some light black streaks about half way down on the plug which means I'm a bit rich on the needle and a few tiny spots of black soot on the base ring, like 1/20th of the way around(probably due to rich needle). However it's -6 right now so those streaks are perfectly fine where they are thank you! In the spring I'll try taking a shim off the needle and see if it will improve the throttle response and may give me a pony or two in the mid-range. Hopefully it's not too much, if 4 is slightly too lean but 5 is slightly too rich, I'll stick with 5 to be on the safe side. Like I posted before 2.25 my bike thinks its a uni-cycle, 2.75 throttle turns to mushy oatmeal. That one little half a turn makes that much of a difference.

The most power one can get is just slightly richer than pre-ignition/piston melting level. However I'm not a drag racer and I'm driving on the street so better to err on the side of richness than leaness. I'll leave the bleeding edge tuning to those that tear the engine down after every race and change out their jets because the temperature went up a degree.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 08:42:54 AM by rider123 »
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #57 on: December 25, 2011, 11:37:56 PM »
MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS AND GALS!!!! Hope all is well and have an awesome new year!!!!

Offline rider123

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2011, 12:36:41 AM »
Hopefully Santa will bring us global warming for Christmas so we can go for a ride.
2005 Bandit 1200, Modified Holeshot Stage 1 with 17.5 pilots 2.75 turns out, and 110 mains 5 shims. Muzzy Slip on w/mid-pipe, stock filter. 1.5" hole in the airbox lid.

Offline deanozx10r

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Re: Poor Mans Stage 1 kit
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2011, 12:25:34 PM »
Mn right now has no snow!! If it were 10* warmer I might think about it :yikes: