Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: Octane on October 29, 2011, 04:03:21 AM
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I thought I'd share this...
Rider123 donated to me 4 112.5 main jets for my B12. :thanks: It took a while but I finally got around to doing the valves and pulling the carbs off to fit these up. In doing so I discovered I had adjustable needles. So after fitting the jets, setting the needles to full rich, setting the pilot screws to 4 turns out and cutting a 1.5" hole in the top of the airbox lid I was off to go testing. the bike also has a slip on exhaust. The low and mid range was smoother and the zone above 6,000rpm felt according to my arse dyno stronger. After a week of riding I pulled the plugs to inspect. The centre and ground electrodes were clean with a hint of purple hue. The base ring was sooty though. Today I decided to pop in my K&N. Went for a ride and the bike feels fine. Same as before but maybe a hint stronger.
I don't know why with Dale's stage 1 kit he says not to use a K&N but on the stage 2 he does. I'd really like to know the reason. Stage 1 on a B1250 he includes a K&N. :headscratch: I'm also confused as to why you would leave the snorkle in the airbox after opening up a 1.5" hole in the top :headscratch: Woudn't you pull the snorkle out to give you more area? On a stage 2 B12 kit you slice the whole top off the lid to leave it W I D E open and with a K&N fitted.
Anyhoo, in another week I'll pull the plugs again to see how they are fairing. Happy with the result so far for my tight arse tune. Only thing is I need a racetrack to test it fully as I like my license intact. There are quicker bikes out there I know but I'm now rediscovering that I bought a Bandit for riding and touring - not racing. There's nothing wrong with tuning your bike for optimum performance for a given purpose - is there? Ride safe.
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If you pulled the airbox lid off you'd need way more than just 112.5's. If you want put the stock filter back in and take out the snorkle which will give you some more air in there to test if you need to maybe enlarge the top 1.5" hole. If you use a K&N it will be lean in the midrange and up top as I've tried it myself. Try putting it back with the stock air filter and pulling out the snorkle which will enlarge the snorle area to 2" diameter instead of 1.5" but I believe if you take the snorkle out you lose a bit of low range torque. However if the bike gains more power and drives smoother, what you could do is pop the snorkle back in there and enlarge the top hole from 1.5" to 2" or whatever you need.
eg:
snorkle in 1.5" hole
1.5 " hole
3" total.
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no snorkle - 2" hole
1.5 " hole
3.5" total.<---more air. Maybe too much? You could tape over the snorkle hole slightly if necessary to test.
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Alternate:
Enlarge the top box hole(Maybe use a file). It's 38 mm(1.5") so maybe 2mm a time, ie 40 mm then test 42mm then test, etc.
Also before cutting holes, etc. Maybe turn in the mixture screws a 1/4 turn and see if that cleans up the plugs. It could be at 4 turns out your maybe a little too much. Is the top metal where the spark jumps to the electrode have sooty bits on it?
Bad ascii diagram again :-(
_________
I __
I __/__\__ <--------------Metal Tip, sooty deposits with sooty base ring could be rich on pilots try a 1/4 turn in for fun to see.
I / \<-----------Electrode
I___/_________\__< ----base ring
I I
I I
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Hey Rider123! :grin:
It's the base ring which is sooty and you can sort of wipe it off. The electrodes themselves are clean but have a hard coloring to them (purple - whatever that means).
For a full house carb rejet with the K&N pod filters and special needles - what size jets are people running? When does the main jet take over from the pilots? Or better still is there a laymans text on how these carburettors work?
I know - sorry for all the questions.
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Try turning the mixture screws a 1/4 turn in and ride around a bit, see if that cleans up the base ring a bit. The purple bits are usually just the crap they put in gasoline these days sometimes when I switch stations the plugs change colour a bit. Usually the base ring being sooty means that you need some more air in there so for fun try putting the stock filter in and pulling the snorkle or see if just a 1/4 turn in on the mixture screws help
From what I gather here on the board for stage 2 you need like 147.5's or 150's and Dales special needles. I hear that tuning a stage 2 is tricky, you may want to buy the kit from Dale as he will help you tune it.
http://www.holeshot.com/bandit/bndt_b1201_stage2.shtml
I think if you make the 1.5" hole on the top a little bigger it will probably clean up the jetting or alternatively just lean it out a bit. Taking out the snorkle to test takes all of 20 seconds to unscrew the two philips screws on the document tray and is easily reversable. If you take out he snorkle and find it too lean then you can just tape up tiny bits of the 2" snorkle hole until it's perfect, then at least you know sort of how much to enlarge the hole.
For example if the 2" hole was taped up a quarter that is 1.5" which you won't go past because that will be the same as having the snorkle in. So say you test the bike with the snorkle out and find it a tad lean, say you tape up an 1/8th of the 2" hole and now its perfect. So now you know that when you put the snorkle back in there you have to enlarge the top cut hole to 1.75" with the snorkle in. That way you get the best of both worlds, you have the snorkle velocity stack for lower end/low mid range torque but also have a big enough hole(1.75" in this example) for the upper mid and top end power.
Going to a stage 2 you will lose some low end as you basically just have the carbs open and the air isn't accelerated and smoothed out with a velocity stack(the snorkle). In an ideal world the intake would be variable like the fantail exhaust on a fighter jet. At lower rpm it would be smaller to give maximum torque but at higher RPM the intake would expand to allow more air for maximum horsepower.
Stage 1 is a comprimise between maximum power and low end torque, you get good numbers for both however you don't get theoretical maximum torque and you don't get theoretical maximum power. However for drive-ability the stage 1 is excellent and for %99.99 of people out there because chances are they aren't towing a trailer or wide open on a drag strip and it's still way better than stock at any rpm or throttle position.
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keep in mind that 2x1" holes does not equal a 1x2" hole
pi r squared
many variables are involved here. Filter, inlet opening, outlet restriction or lack there of
My 02 B12 still seems a little lean with 112.5's and a 3/4" hole in the air box. Bigger hole was more lean, actually too lean.
The 3/4 hole was a compromise, just right in hot weather but in the cold (like today) shows signs of very slightly lean. Any setting is really just a compromise.
My main reason for jetting was to get rid of the coldbloodedness and obvious lean condition after adding a bolton.
I have also shimmed needles and adjusted pilot screws.
You really just need to make small changes one at a time (ONE AT A TIME) until you find the combination that works for you.
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Well I left the K&N in but opened up the pilot screws another 1/4 of a turn - now at 4.25 turns out. Had to adjust the idle speed up.
Just completed 200km of every type of riding you can do - city stop start, periods of sustained 100km/h, mountain ascents and decents (x2 sets of) and in cool and warm weather (it was sunny and then it rained on top of the mountains).
Bike ran flawlessly - seriously it ran like a true champion. I pulled the plugs and took a picture (will post it up) the sooty base ring is gone - plugs are clean but slightly brownish in colour. I think I might have it sorted - maybe.
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Awsome! Only 100?
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Yep, I left the hero riding to the others on the mountin that day. Drag test & tune days come up fairly often here. Cheap enough too. $45. Track days on the other hand are expensive IMO. One day I'll do one but not in 2011. The only other thing to add would be an ignition advance.
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I imagine your probably getting a little more power than the standard stage 1. An ignition advancer will crispin up throttle response but you may have to go to mid-grade gasoline if you are getting pre-ignition. I have the holeshot advancer and it's super easy to install and comes with a new gasket to boot.
Now that I've been thinking about it I may put my spare 112.5's(I've got the ones from the holeshot kit in storage) in there in the spring, and give it another shot. I have the 110's in there and 1.5" is too much air I've had to tape up some of the hole to fix the mid range and upper range leaness. My problem is that I have the larger pilots which makes the bottom end rich and with the hole too large the upper lean. So I think if I open up the hole back to 1.5" and pop the 112.5's back in and put the original 15 pilots in there or turn the mixture screws in, I should be perfect. With the larger 112.5's and the 17.5's at the recomended 3.75 turns out it was just too rich. As you can see by my sig I'm at 3 turns out and I still have some sootyness down low. Since I'm one pilot size up my equivilant turns out with 15's are 4.5 turns out(one size up or down = 1 1/2 turns). I may turn the screws in another 1/4 turn and adjust the hole to match which would probably make me good at least until spring when I can experiment again. I'm glad it turned out so well for you.
Here is the advancer link. I'm sure it's not too much to ship to Ozzyland. I did notice a difference with the throttle response with the advancer, it's a wallop of power with no lag.
http://www.holeshot.com/bandit/bndt_advancer.shtml
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Well, I finally got off my arse and posted the plugs image. Numbered 1 to 4 left to right.
I'm still happy with the performance but I reckon the advancer would add a bit of an edge to it. Don't forget I'm running a K&N filter too. These plugs have done about 10,000km. From memory they are about $10AU each here for JR9B's. I bit rude IMO. Might have to get some shortly.
(http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/15/87/15/21/100_3413.jpg)
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They look pretty good there, maybe a bit rich down low but other than that it's fine. The third from the left you can see that the tip of the electrode and the base ring have some sooty deposits but it looks good to me. Maybe if you wanted to turn in the mixture screws 1/4 turn and see how it drives. You may need the bottom end a bit rich to compensate for the K&N filter. The first one on the left looks the richest. Try a 1/4 turn in for all and see what happens, if the bike drives weirder then just leave it as it is. I'm assuming from left to right is the cylinder arangment right? Ie plug 1 is cylinder 1 etc. If so then don't worry about number 1 because if the bikes on the kick stand it will get slightly more fuel until you upright the bike.
Best one out of the bunch is number 2. Though when you take pictures of the plugs with the flash makes the dark parts darker and the light parts lighter. Maybe try a sunny day outside it gives a better realistic contrast.
If you really want you could pop in a fresh set of plugs totally clean and brand new and use these as spares. It might give you a more accurate reading. And yes the advancer will make the throttle response more snappy and will make a slightly more complete burn of the gas so the plugs may lighten up a bit.
Maybe go for a long ride a little faster than 100 on the highway for an hour then take a look. It will clean up any previous deposits.
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G'Day Maaate
Greetings from a fellow Aussie
I have actually bought the Dale walker kit and also have adjustable suzuki oem needles , with the kit set up as dale describes 1.5 inch hole in the airbox lid with 5 washers under the needle (I left the needle on the middle clip just to see what it was like ) and the 110 mains 3.75 turns on the mixture screw mine was rich at idle but slightly lean on the needle and was not quite pulling all the way to the top of the rev range it felt like it was leaning out ( 5° advancer fitted ) factory air filter
with the 5 washers under the needle (middle clip ) it is the same as the clip being at the bottom of the needle plus 1.5 shims approximately
Now i have the 112.5 mains installed with 3 shims under the needle on the bottom clip with the mixture screws on 3.5 turns out from seated and the 1.5 inch hole in the air box lid + the 5° advancer fitted with a new clean factory air filter
The thing pulls like a steam train all over the rev range now and is so smoooth all the way to the red line with plugs nice and clean around the ceramic insulator and just the slightest tinge of black around the threaded part after 3000km's on this set of plugs with mixed riding
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Well I'll have to fish out those 112.5's out of storage then. I was in the same boat way too rich down low, horridly lean up top. I have turned the mixture screws in to 2.75 with 17.5's which equals about 4.25 turns on the 15's half the airbox hole taped up and it drives perfectly but I'm not getting the full effect of the extra airflow. I can tell at high RPM(>7500) its wanting more airflow, its not rich it's just hitting a max airflow wall. I will pop in the 112.5's in the spring and try again with the 1.5" hole totally untaped. Hell there is one guy here with 112.5's with the hole taped up 1/2. I definitely need more jet.
Even with the screws at 2.75(4.25 equivalent) with a half a 1.5" hole, I can tell it's still a touch rich down low(plugs confirm it) but I put in the next size up pilots as per the recommendations and it probably wasn't necessary. Since I'm 1 size up on the pilots that equals about 1 1/2 turns on the mixture screws. Probably the screws should be around 2.5(4 turns) or so but I definitely need those bigger mains. Also if I put the bigger mains in there and the airbox is opened up it will probably need around 2.75 anyway or maybe even 3 turns out, so I might as well leave it until the spring. It's also cold out so a little extra juice can't hurt it.
When I set the screws to 3.75(5.25 equivalent!) with the 112.5's as recommended it was just too rich, ran super awesome up until it started getting hot. However with the screws set to more where the they should be it probably will be fine.
I should also add I have a Muzzy slip on and mid-pipe which looks pretty wide open which may explain why I need more jet. It's almost just a piped hole going from the exhaust collector box to the exhaust cap. However, ironically it's alot quieter than my friends Yosh even though its a smaller pipe, it was also repacked last year so it's not like its just nothing in there.
To give you an example my plugs look like your number 2 plug but my electrodes are much whiter but the base ring is about the same(slightly rich down low) but really if you look at the outside of the ring you can see it's a little lighter, in a perfect world it would be closer to that colour. However it's better to be slightly richer than leaner. If you can get all the plugs close to what number 2 looks like it should be good. For fun I would turn the screws in a 1/4 turn for fun and see how it goes, on a warmer day here I may do the same however I'm still a little lean in the mid and upper range so I have to compensate a bit with the pilots.
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I forgot to add that I am running a yoshi tri oval slip on with a yoshi link pipe
And just yesterday the post man dropped off a set of Delkevic headers to have a play with and i may need to change the jetting again as the inner diameter of the delkevic is almost the same as the outer diameter of the Stock down pipes ( no twin wall setup like stock ) and so much lighter
Just weighing up whether or not to get the new headers ceramic coated
I am locate within 50 kilometers of the Queensland coast and at an elevation of less than 250m above sea level currently it is reaching 34-38° c with 45 -50% humidity during the day and it is not even summer yet
In the winter it rarely gets below 20°c during the day and is usually the best time to ride
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I havent tore into my bike yet and just wondering what brand of jets I can use mikuni or keihin or are they the same??? I am going to put together this with the 112.5s combo, my bike has the holeshot can so it should be close to what everyone here is doing. And I seen some where about setting the float level anyone know the right height??
Not sure if this is jetting problem or just gumbed up junk. The bike run fine when im not riding it like my racer, but when I start using more of the top end and midrange after a bit it really hesitates and has no power. My guess is probibly one never been cleaned and stock jetting after the original owner put the can on. Like I said I havent tore in this so not sure if the jets are stock or not.
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Do you have the hole cut to 1.5" in the top of the airbox or is it closed up? Are the jets stock? I'm assuming you have a Bandit 1200 GEN2(2001-2006) Sounds like the former owner just popped a slip on without jetting the bike which made the already lean jetting even more lean. If you don't put any jets in there but shim the needle and turn the mixture screws out a bit you'll probably be fine for now. Your float height is probably fine I wouldn't start there. See below:
Just go with mikuni jets. Either 110 or 112.5. Most people are fine with the 110's but some other guys need 112.5. If you are only a little off with the 110's and pop 112.5s in there you may have to reduce the shims on the needle by one or two.
If you have just a slip on and everything stock with no jetting changes, drilling out the mixture screw plugs and turning them out a 1/4 turn or so will help alot. If you don't want to drill an extra hole in the airbox lid and keep the airbox closed, my friend got really good results with a 102.5 Mainjet and a mixture screw adjustment and a Yosh slip on.
If you want to go the stock airbox route I would do this to start:
snorkle in
102.5's main jets
3 turns out on the mixture screws (that is stock may need another 1/4 turn)
get some shims for the needle
If you want to go with the poor man's stage 1:
1.5" hole in the airbox lid, snorkle in
110 mains to start(get some 112.5's in case as they are only a few bucks each)
3.5 to 4 turns on the mixture screws
shim the needles as necessary
FLOAT HEIGHT FOR ALL CARBS(GEN2 1200cc 2001-2006): 13mm
These are the main jets you need:(n100/604)
http://www.gearheadcanada.com/eshopprod_cat_6814-62413-62504_product_1080883_keyword_main+AND+jets.MAIN_JET_FOR_MIKUNI_N100604.htm
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Ya mines an 03 1200 with 5000 miles. Sweet man thanks a ton :beers:
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Are your A/F mixture screw plugs drilled out? If so I got good results just turning out all the mixture screws to 3 turns out to start, mine were all over the place from the factory. You can start a 3 turns out then maybe turn them out to 3 1/4 turns as a stopgap measure until you get new jets. You can also go to radio shack and buy some shims for the needles. One or two shms will help alot until you get new jets.
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Winter is just starting here in MN so I'll tear it apart, clean everything and reinstall with the new jets. I wont be able to ride it till april or may.
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Heres a tip on drilling out the mixture screws:
get a drill bit thats smaller than the mixture plugs and put a piece of tape 1/4" from the tip of the drill bit. This is so you don't drill too deeply as you don't want to kill the mixture screws. Drill CAREFULLY to make the centre hole large enough so you can screw in a self taping screw into the plug. After the screw is tight in there you can just use some pliers and the screw and the plug will pop right out. To adjust the mixture screws screw clockwise or in until the mixture screw is starting to resist. Do not screw in tight, just enough so you know that they are bottomed out. Mark with a marker where the screw has stopped. Then unscrew 3 turns from fully in. This will get you to the stock setting.
Once the carbs are on the bike you can just use a screw driver bit to adjust them in or out as necessary. My guess is you will probably have to go out at least a 1/4 of a turn with the stock airbox setup.
Heres fast larry's diagram which should help
(http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/2001b12carbs.jpg)
You need to shim the needles here is the part numbers from radio shack. Shimming raises the needle(makes it richer) at midrange. If you don't shim it will be weak at mid-range.
Radio shack part # 64-3022A
I would leave the stock pilots in there(15's) instead of going one up. I went one up and had a hell of a time as the recommended turns are 3.75 with the stage 1. I was waaaayyy too rich down low as you can see by my sig I'm at 2.25 turns out with the 17.5's and I still think it may be a touch rich down low. If you do go with the larger pilots(17.5) I would start at 2 turns out and go up from there. One size pilot up or down equals 1 and a half turns so my 2.25(17.5) is a 3.75 equivalent(15) but I had to do a crazy hunt for that information from factory pro. Save yourself some time and stick with the stock pilots. If you have to go more than 4.5 turns then go up one on the pilots but I doubt you need that much. I may pop in the stock pilots in the spring myself.
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On the stock needles about how many shims would you recommend?? Im going to go with the 112.5, 1.5 hole in the lid, the snorkels already gone and stock air filter. I really dont think anything was change like I stated after the can was added.
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Bummer about the snorkel(velocity stack), it aides in the low end and smooths the air going into the airbox. No wonder you're super lean with larger throttle inputs! I can't remember how large the Radio Shack shims were, and I gave them to another forum member, but I think they were about double the thickness of the holeshot ones, so maybe 2 or 3 on each needle should get you close. Since you don't have the snorkel then you will definitely need the 112.5's or maybe even higher. The snorkle does alot more than people think. I think you can buy a replacement for about $20 if the 112.5's aren't enough. Just cut the 1.5" for now because even if it's too lean you just go buy a snorkle and it should clear it up.
If you want to test or you feel that there is too much air with the snorkel out, you can tape up a little of either the top 1.5" hole or the 2" snorkel area. If you tape up a 1/4 of the snorkel area that would be the equivalent of having the snorkel in, in terms of overall air intake.Here is the specs for the air intake with and without the snorkel and the 1.5" hole:
Stock:
1.5" hole with snorkel
1.5" total
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Stage one:
1.5" airbox lid hole
1.5" hole with snorkle
3" total
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Stage one without snorkel:
1.5" hole in airbox lid
2" hole without snorkel
3.5" total.
Found the snorkel at www.bikebandit.com $19.37
Part #1051854
Try it without it and see how it goes it may be perfect. Most people are fine with the 110's but since you have extra air going in there the 112.5's will probably be very close.
I would recomend getting the 5 degree advancer once everything is setup at
http://www.holeshot.com/bandit/bndt_advancer.shtml
It really crispins up the throttle response and it's dead easy to install.
Oh I forgot to ask you what filter is in there? Hopefully it's the stock Suzuki filter, if you have a K&N it will be too lean without jetting. That would be a double whammy of leaness! All these setups use the OEM Suzuki filter.
The stock one should look white and the K&N should look red. If you don't want to take the lid or the tank off just remove the document tray and look inside the air intake.
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I dont know the previous owner I think had it some where there were alot of mice, the snorkel was gone and he had wire mesh covering the hole. But overall the bike was well taken care of dam near showroom condtion when I got it. I thought about selling it to get into a fuely, its just so much easier to through a pc on and get it tuned. But its a great bike and does 2up riding awesome I just wish I could get 120 plus hp out of it with out dumping a ton of money into it. I guess thats why I got a my gsxr 1000 racer to feed the need LOL
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Guys, remembering my setup (poor mans stage 1 112.5 mains, needles at full rich E clip on lowest notch, pilots at 4 turns out, 1.5" hole with snorkle in - for all intents and purposes i'm at sea level) is fitted with a K&N. Plugs are showing that it's pretty well spot on. I'm finding the current setting is excellent but could do with an advancer to sharpen up the throttle response when in the lower RPM range <5,000rpm - especially when commuting and you need a burst of acceleration.
On my 1250 EFI, I have a X-TRE and FI Tuner PRO, Healtech map loaded, TBR slipon (imagine a stormwater drain you can drive a truck through, that's the amount of baffling the pipe has :grin:) and the stock airbox and filter - less the pigs snout snorkle.
The 1200 will power wheelie with abandon when in 2nd gear, above 6000rpm and you crack the throttles wide open (none of this clutching business).
The 1250 just won't. It just accelerates. Could be that it's about 50kg heavier (ABS and full fairing). It just feels like it's starving for air.
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So I guess that 1/4 turn in helped you out eh Octane? Nice! The problem with the Bandit 1250 is that even with the snorkel removed there is still not enough air getting into the airbox. You have to realize Suzuki, and for that matter all the bike manufacturers, are hobbling everything that comes out the door to try and meet the super strict regulations of the most strict market that they sell to.
For example motorcycles in Canada are totally exempt from any smog or emissions/global warming crap at all. If you could weld 2 Humvee engines and stick it on a motorcycle chassis somehow, you could have an open hole for the exhaust. However in Europe where they really bought into that global warming fraud, if it pumps out any more than a '70's 50cc 2-stroke there is problems. However Europe is a huge market(or used to be who knows now)for motorcycle sales so Suzuki and all the others play it safe and makes their bikes work for the toughest of the smog regulations, not how the bike should run.
So basically they kill off like 1/3 of the potential horsepower before it goes out the door. However they are not that dumb so they put all the parts on there so once it gets into the target country the owners can just fix it themselves. If they PERMANENTLY killed off the horsepower then there goes their motorcycle market. So basically its a phucked up game between the fraudsters, the government and the motorcycle manufacturers. I'm sure you guys all have had used bikes before, remember how large the air intake on those early eighties/late 70's bikes were like? They were all normal sized. Hell my last bike before this which is a SACS 750 engine, my '84 GS750EF had double the stock air intake than my Bandit 1200 with only slightly more than half the displacement. I had a Yosh exhaust on there and the previous owner did a jet kit and guess what? No extra holes in the Airbox because it was serviced by an appropriate air intake. The only thing next was Pods.
Really all this drilling the airbox is a symptom of the silliness the bike manufacturers are subjected to. For example in Octanes example the Next Generation of Bandit the 1250 is hobbled even MORE than the previous generation. You also look at in the specs. Even though the previous generation used a powerplant designed in the eighties and only has 5 gears not 6 it still beats the 1250 in 1/4 mile times stock for stock. That means even though the new Bandit has more displacement it's actually putting out less peak potential horsepower to the wheels, there is more torque however but all this is at a cost. Its also heavier which doesn't help.
With Dale from Holeshot's stage 2 which basically removes some of the back of the airbox he's getting another 22 horespower and removing the back of the airbox entirely, and killing the extra butterflies in the throttle bodies with a full system hes pumping out 32 horsepower, which is how every bike should be run really. Now if you look at the previous generation the with everything in the engine stock(no hot cams, etc) with a stage 2 and a full system you are getting a total potential horsepower of 19 over stock.
So now look at the 2 generations:
For this demonstration we will assuming they both are getting around 100 horsepower which isn't too far off.
GEN1/GEN2/GEN3:
Horsepower: 100
Total potential stock: +19
Total hobbling: %19
GEN4:
Horsepower: 100
Total potential stock: +32(WOW!)
Total hobbling: %32
As you can see as the restriction get tougher the total potential hobbling gets worse and worse. This demonstration is all stock except the breathing of the engine. Even my stage 1 kit which add about 13 horsepower has really only reduced the hobbling to 6%.
I remember back in the day people would boast about an extra 5 or 6 horsepower with their bikes. Were the engines that shit back in the day? No, they were less hobbled out of the factory.
Who knows maybe in the future we will have a Bandit 1500 putting out 20 horespower through a thimbal sized air intake. The only real way to ADD horsepower is through engine modification, hotter cams, porting, better pistons, etc. Really all these jet kits are doing is restoring the potential peak power of the engine as it came out of the factory. However, if Holeshot or Factory Pro advertised "13% less hobbling!!" no one would buy their jet kits so they claim they are "adding" horsepower which I guess technically is true but really your just fixing it to what it should have come out of the factory.
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Ive ridden my buddies 1250 and from what I remember it did feel heavier. But ya my bike needs the up grade!! :thumb:
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I will be doing the 1.5" hole in the lid trick on the 1250 shortly. Yoshimura make a pair of cams for this engine.
A guy here in Oz fitted these along with a PCV + AB mod and got some impressive power along with rideability.
From memory is was in the realm of 140HP. :thumb: $1000 for the cams.
The 1200 can benefit from either 1 or both cams from a GSXR1100. Again very impresive HP gains.
I have a brand new turbo here from a Laser TX3 1600.............. :trustme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV16K6Z6GDA
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Hi Octane! I'm not sure about the 1250 needing exactly 1.5", maybe someone here can pipe up who owns the the 1250. You should be getting more horsepower than the air cooled engine mod for mod as you can't beat displacement and the 1250 engine is more modern. I think from what info I gathered is you cut the airbox lid almost entirely off but leave enough of it to hold a K&N filter in place. The EFI box you have is it the one that Dale sells where basically you have mixture like screws to adjust fuel level in the rpm ranges plus fuel boost and tune the engine that way? Then it would be a snap to adjust the EFI to compensate for whatever you do to the thing, whether its pods or an airbox mod. I'm imagining since the 1250 is hobbled even more than the SACS Bandit(see chart above) you would need this sort of setup rather than a 1.5" extra hole, it may not be enough. If you can adjust the fuel mixtures either by user programmable map or those little screws then by all means experiment. If it all goes to hell you could always just by a new lid for the airbox/tape up the holes and start again.
I would for now not remove any secondary butterfly's, etc and maybe just do baby steps until you get a feel for the fuel mapping. I don't have any experience personally with fuel mapping but I'm imagining its probably more accurate and easier then swapping jets and experimenting. If you are comfortable with the adjusting the fuel injection then maybe you are right and putting a 1.5" hole might be a good stepping stone. Maybe for fun put the snorkel back in there and add a 1.5" hole this will still be larger than just the snorkel removed, then tune it up until it runs well. Then remove the snorkel, adding more air, tune it up, etc. This way you can get a feel for the power gains and you're not making such abrupt changes to the jetting.
Remember the more hobbling the greater the potential gains. Below 5000 rpm with your setup on your SACS Bandit you will lose some low end torque, if you don't have the snorkel installed, install it and adjust the mixtures, that will help with the low range. I think the advancer may also help a bit down low but I haven't done any real testing. When I bought my kit from Dale I just installed it and rode off I guess maybe I should have jetted it then tested without the advancer. I know I've lost a little down low but gained a shitload in the mid and upper range, a good trade off. Also the little I've lost is negligible and it's not like I can't pass a car at a stoplight, as soon as you've gone 20 ft you start getting in the sweeter spots of the rpm range anway. On a track day I doubt you'll be below 4k. I would suggest buying the advancer for the fact that it really crispins the throttle and reduces throttle lag big time. If I hammer the throttle its just a big wallop of power, not a tiny pause, then power.
I'm imagine at low rpm where the power is less any help to get the power to come on quicker is going to help you so by all means buy the advancer.
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I dont know the previous owner I think had it some where there were alot of mice, the snorkel was gone and he had wire mesh covering the hole. But overall the bike was well taken care of dam near showroom condtion when I got it. I thought about selling it to get into a fuely, its just so much easier to through a pc on and get it tuned. But its a great bike and does 2up riding awesome I just wish I could get 120 plus hp out of it with out dumping a ton of money into it. I guess thats why I got a my gsxr 1000 racer to feed the need LOL
To be honest it seems the previous owner really didn't know what the hell he was doing. You can't just increase airflow without increasing the fueling or you're LOSING power. Put it this way the jets are so cheap I just gave them away to Octane. It cost me a total of $16 so maybe $12 in the States? So $12 and an hour of work for 12-15 more horsepower gain I think is a good trade off. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than a power commander >$300. Since you don't have the snorkel in there when you get the 112.5's I would definitely use the stock OEM filter and not a K&N it will be just too lean. If you like the K&N for it's re-usability then go buy the $20 snorkel from bike bandit. However the K&N flows better but it also allows more dirt into the engine, you may want to change your oil slightly more frequently.
With the setup you have you maybe only getting like 80-85 horsepower max instead of the stock 100-104. Plus with all that air and no extra fuel down low is probably weak as well. Fortunately for you though at least the most expensive parts of the equation have already been paid for which is the slip on from Holeshot. So instead of the total cost being $300 it's now down to $12 and the time to install the jets and drill or cut a 1.5" hole in the airbox cover. Lucky you!
I've seen this alot on other bikes I've bought where the previous owner reads something in a magazine and only gets it half right and phucking it up in the process. Then you pick the bike up cheap and just do an hour of work and the bike rips.
For example I'm guessing your getting about 80-85 horsepower due to the fact the bike is super lean(might be less who knows?). So now add 110's or 112.5's and jet it properly suddenly 80 horsepower turns into 115. Trust me you're going to notice that extra 35 horsepower!!
What I would do if you have the time is drain the carb floatbowls and take number 4 floatbowl off as you can do it while it's on the bike. Just get a rachet that will accept screw driver bits. If the float bowls still have the brass screws it probably hasn't been jetted. Take the float bowl off and carefully unscrew the mainjet. Be careful as it's soft brass and read the number on the jet. If it says 100 it still has the stock jets in there and you know 100% that it hasn't been jetted which just from your description is what I'm guessing. If you just wanted to keep the airbox the way it is I would go with maybe 105's or 107.5's.
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I like the idea if the 1.5 stage kit LOL. It dosent sound all that hard to achieve what were all talking about. I had an 2000 sv 650 I did an poor man kit on and it worked really well, you talk about double takes when your keeping up and passing 600s on a track day!! All this info is great guys this is awesome I totaly love the motorcycle community the way we all help each other :thanks: :beers:
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Heres a pic from this last spring first of the year with snow still on the ground in MN
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Well if I had access to my storage facility(its shared) I would have probably just sent you the extra 112.5's I have but they're stuck there until the guy gets back in the spring. Trust me the jets are cheap. In fact I would buy a set of 110's and a set of 112.5's so if the 110's aren't enough you can just pop in the 112.5's. Since your airbox that has been wired up it may be ok to get the 112.5's in there but I'm not sure if the stock filter can flow enough even with the extra .5" of an unsnorkled hole I guess you can test it out. You may be a shim less than the other guys here with the stock filter and 112.5's. The other solution is ditch the chicken wire or whatever the hell is in there and get a snorkle. In that case I would definately recommend the 110's.
I'm on 110's now and I just took a look at my plugs and I'm a bit rich, however I have the larger pilots in there so I have do a crazy ass calculation to figure out what the equivalent turns are. Also larger pilots even with the equivalent turns will pump out a bit more gas so I may turn them in another 1/4 turn in the spring or go down a shim as I think it's a bit rich on the needle but it may be that the larger pilots are slightly phucking up the jetting. ( I should have kept the stock! Arggghhh!)
If you want to do a temporary fix tape over a 1/4 of the airbox hole that will at least get it to the point of what it would be with the snorkle without the smoothing benefits.
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Hey Rider123,
The EFI tuner module I have is the Healtech FI Tuner PRO. It's map based rather than "screw" based :trustme:.
Dales system works but is flawed - better more precise fueling can be achieved with a map based system where you can add OR SUBTRACT fuel. Have a look at the Healtech site they tell you all about it. It's not as "easy" as the TFI / Two Bros Juice box but it's a hell of a lot more precise you can add or subtract fuel and it IMHO is alot tidyier - no piggy backing plugs - plugs straight in to the expansion plug for the EFI computer. But this is heading to a different topic.
My B12 has the snorkle fitted with the 1.5" hole. One thing I noticed the other week was I was very low on fuel (1lt in the tank) and I opened the throttles up for some reason (do you need a reason? :trustme: I could see the fuel stop) and all of a sudden I soulded and felty like a massive lean out condition. These carbs are gravity fed - low fuel = fuel less eager to fll the bowls?
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Well that but really its the sloshing around thats the worst. Even if you accelerate which puts the gas near the petcock and just pause enough to shift would be enough for the gas to swish forward a bit then go back. Turning right, where all the gas is to the right of the tank off the petcock could theoretically starve the engine. When the engine is running there is actually a small amount of vacuum when the bike is flowing fuel through the fuel line as well as gravity feed. When this is disrupted, it's got to start all over again. Think of when you siphon fuel from a gas tank. You suck until the gas flows through then you can just let gravity and vacuum surface tension take over. If you lift the siphon hose above the tank being siphoned from it stops, but then just putting the hose back doesn't start it again, it must be sucked on again to get the fuel flowing.
With enough fuel in the tank there is actually a positive pressure when the petcock flows so usually its no problem, that and the natural gravity and little tiny bit of suction is usually perfectly fine. Once you are low enough the gas starts swishing around and cause air bubbles to form in the fuel line which disrupts the smooth flow of fuel. Normally you really have to get low like you said maybe a pinky's worth of fuel left to have it get a little weird.
The real danger is if you have fuel injection you should never ever run the tank dry on a fuel injected engine. The fuel is pressurized by a little pump and if that pump goes dry it start over revving and going jihad to try and keep the fuel pressure up to no avail. You can burn out the fuel pump pretty fast like that. Usually on fuel injected bikes you'll notice the tank will say "empty" on the gauge or have crazy flashing lights and all kinds of warnings. When you open the tank you see there is still a quarter tank left and just go "stupid guage". The reason they do this is so that the theoretically lowest limit in the tank is enough to keep the fuel pressure up and won't burn out the pump. While they are being a little too cautious, who pays for the warrenty when people start killing fuel injection pumps by running the tanks dry. Also they know 90% of the people are going to disregard the guage so there is enough in there for them to get to a gas station.
With gravity feed you can run it till its dry and it doesn't matter at all. I usually wait until I hit reserve then go look for a gas station, that way there is always enough in the tank to ensure smooth fuel delivery.
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Well if I had access to my storage facility(its shared) I would have probably just sent you the extra 112.5's
Its all good!! Im going to do this anyway and ya there pretty cheap. Im just glad you guys shared the info other wise I would have gotton the dyno jet kit with the k&n pods. This is way more cost effective!!
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Octane!! Did you get a chance to read the sport rider addition with the gsx 1250 up grade. They dynoed it stock at 94 rwh then after all the mods they got 120 rwh all bolt ons. After the comparison between the ninja1, fz1 and the gsx1250 they felt the suzuki needed some help.
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Well thank god you didn't get a Dynojet kit, for the Bandit 1200 they work horribly. One guy here got so pissed off he sold the bike over it.
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Ya that would have sucked!!! I put one in a 2001 R1 with a pipe and it worked really well.
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Ya its weird they work perfectly on %99 of the bikes out there but for the Bandit 1200 they suck dick. I was trying to help a guy on here with his and it was like impossible to tune. For one thing their mainjets they use are actually LEANER than stock so you know how thats going to turn out. Then they make it up by having the float height super rich(11.5!) and having aggressive tapers on the needles to make up for a shitty mainjet. The icing on the cake is you have to use their jets and not standard Mikunis. I have a feeling that the Bandit is so hobbled no amount of fancy needles are going to fix it, you need LARGER jets period. Also the guy who he took it to instead of ordering the proper jets when it was lean, just DRILLED(OMFG!)out the Dynojet jets. So it went from dangerously lean(couldn't even get past 8000 RPM) to horribly rich. The guy finally just gave up. Too bad if he just bought a kit from www.holeshot.com or asked us we would have told him. He came after the fact when the horse has left the barn and the barn burnt down. I pity the guy who gets that bike as it has to be jetted from scratch. If they know what they are doing they'll pick up a nice bike for cheap if they don't it will just get thrown on the thrash heap of a "problem" bike when all it needs is $12 in jets. A shame.
Whats worse is he bought it stock and he said it was driving fine and the mechanic(you know the wanker who DRILLED the jets) Recommended he get a Dynojet kit and a slipon and all he wanted was a carb sync/clean. Oh man!
I think the real reason they suck for the Bandit is they were made for the GEN1 Bandit which has a slightly different setup with carbeuration. The Dynojet people probably just looked at the engine and said. "Well it's the same engine, so phuck it" But that doesn't work when the carbs are different. So I think the real reason is Dynojets lazyness.
The kit came with 96 98 and 100 Dynojet jets which on the translation table is
87.5 90 and 92.5 Mikuni. Holy leaness batman!!! The Dynojet jets are roughly 4 points below the Mikuni jets!! They mostly line up with the Keihin jets...sort of. Dynojet measure by the hole but Mikuni measure by the flow of CC's/MIN which is more accurate. So even with the Largest mainjet in the kit he is still 4 points BELOW stock. For him to get even just the stock jetting he needs a 106 from Dynojet. For 110 equivilent Mikuni it's a 118 from Dynojet. So you see the problem with their kits. Now they have a crazy ass rich float height so probably the kit should have come with 104 106 and 108's or something, at least 4 or 5 points richer than what's in the kit. They also use a closed airbox and a K&N so they probably don't need it much richer from stock but it shouldn't be LEANER!
I've seen some dyno's from a couple of guys who, by praying to the Dark Gods in their basement, have actually got their kits running ok(jet size unknown) and they give you a few ponies less than the stage 1(around 108-110HP) we normally do. I believe that because the airbox is closed and even with no airfilter, there is only so much air it can get from that dinky 1.5" snorkel.
Put it this way if he just left in the old Mikuni jet he would be 4 points richer than Dynojets richest jet in their stage 1 kit. It probably would have worked better at least until the upper mid-range when it starves out. Don't get that kit!!! Or if you do get them to swap the jets for 104 106 and 108's to start. I firmly believe they can work well, but they need a hell of alot of tweaking. Even a 1.5" airbox mod and a Dynojet kit could probably work well it just would need bigger mainjets.
To be honest the engine doesn't give a shit how it gets the fuel it just burns well at certain conditions. If you stuck a Bing carburetor from WWII and it delivered the fuel properly it would work just as well as a kit. We are just going with what has the highest success and power rate with the least amount of work and Dynojet isn't it.
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Oh I hear ya I am so glad I didnt go that route!!! :thumb:
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Sport Rider? I don't know what that is. Magazine?
MCN here in Oz did an article on the 1250 with Yoshi cams that was impressive. (hmmmmmm...scratches chin in thinking mode)
I'm very happy with the jets / needle setting and K&N / filter box mod combo but might get an advancer just to see if it adds that snappy throttle.
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Sport Rider mag here in the states is the shit!!! :thumb: They do all the comparisons with all the classes of sport bikes and everything involved with sport bikes. The bike in that issue was a holeshot build stage one witch included a full holeshot exhaust, k&n with the entire lid cut except to hold the filter in, dobeck performance tfi tuning box and o2 bypass module. They said in there it was impressive and almost to much, my opion 120 rwh is not to much its just getting started. If you like message my your email and I'll scan the article and send it to you.
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What really would be impressive is if they had an article on a Dynojet stage 1. Let's see those phuckers do that!!
You sure it was a full system? It's sounds like 120 is his stage 2 with a slip on. With a full system he's pulling 132 hp. Anything after stage 1 requires the secondary butterflies removed. You lose a little low end torque but get a huge boost in power.
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Ya that to!!!!! sorry :duh: Im looking at the dyno results now base was 93.7h at 8800 with 73.6t at 3400, mod bike 120.9h at 8400 with 86.7t at 5800. A different dyno might have higher readings but still it made over 27h with all bolt ons. That 27h is more power than a race ninja 250 makes :trustme:, you ever hear them things they sound like a bunch of bees comen :motorsmile:
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It seems the new bandit is making 6-9 less horsepower than the old. Bummer! Torque isn't that much better either. If you look at my crazy little chart you can see the new Bandit is even more hobbled than the old Bandit. Which in some ways is a good thing as it has a higher horsepower potential. A stage 2 on a GEN2 Bandit with full system is around 120 this includes pods, etc. With the new GEN4 Bandit it's an extra 10-12 HP over that. This of course is without engine work, new cams, porting etc. As you can see you can unleash more ponies per dollar in the new Bandit than the old. Plus it has better gearing so when you do unleash all those extra ponies it should have a higher top speed and acceleration even with the extra weight, most of which will be eliminated from the horrid stock exhaust bikes come with nowadays.
All in all the new Bandit is the better bike even with the terrible hobbling. Also really the dyno number don't matter that much its the CHANGE before an after. If you had a dyno that said you made 50 horsepower on the bike but was accurate enough to show you increased horsepower X amount, thats all you really need. Dynos are usually within 5 horsepower of each other, and it depends on temperature, humidity, etc. THe same bike on a dry cool day may make 100 horsepower and on a hot and muggy day 95.
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Ya thats funny about the (cold dyno) a guy at my local race org claimed his r6 put out 130 rwh. He had proof the dyno sheet said the shop temp was about 35* f, on that same dyno same bike during the summer it made 122. He would of had to put ton of money into that bike to get 130, thats about the horse power #s of the old formula extreme class bikes.
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Colder air = denser air = More oxygen = more power.
Thats why they have nitrous oxide. The nitrogen is just a catalyst for the oxygen being pumped into the cylinders.
Thats why all dynos worth their salt have the ambient temperature in the dyno runs. Usually most shops will have a climate controled shop so that they are a standard 70 degrees which is sort of average summer temperature.
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Here's another one. Say I'm looking for more HP (yep, okay I'm really looking for more HP). The Holeshot stage II kit is a natural progression. Only thing is this bike is my primary method of transport so riding in the rain is a reality. My K6 has a different airbox to the K5 whereas there are no side overs to protect the pods from water ingress. So the question is how much can I go with (WRT jet size) the standard airbox, K&N and the lid sawn off? The stage II kit jets are up there in the 150's (correct me if I'm wrong).
What brought this on was I ventured into the 8,000rpm+ zone today with wide open throttles but was a little underwhelmed.
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It could be that the K&N you have in there is pulling too much air at high RPM which would mean you would have to go maybe another jet size up. Maybe 115's or 117.5's. To test this theory, pop in the stock filter which flows less air and try high RPM's again. Remember the Bandit gets max horsepower at round 8,500 or so so revving much past that just is less power. I always am amused by people on youtube who rev to redline then shift, it's actually less acceleration then just sticking in the power band. Remember the Bandit's stock cams are made for mid-range power not top end.
For fun Octane pop in the stock filter, ignore any low end richness for now and try it. If the power is better it may be worth it to tune the bike with the stock filter on there. It wouldn't be hard, you may just have to turn the mixture screws in a 1/4 turn or 1 or 2 less shims on the needle is all, it would be close without any adjusting. Or maybe enlarge the top hole, take out the snorkle, etc. The stock filter also stops dirt better so you would have to change the oil less. I would guess that without the back of the airbox on there, since the power is almost the same as the pods it would actually be close to the 147.5 to 150's you use with the pods. The bonus of the airbox version is it may be a little bit better in wet weather which would be good for me because the bike is my primary vehicle.
I think the pods would probably be "ok" in wet weather as long as you were moving but the outside cylinders would still be a bit richer with wider throttle openings in the wet and if you parked the right side might get a little more rain than the left. The good thing is that the bandit's side cover almost cover the entire airbox intake boots right up to the carb so the Bandit is probably better than most other bikes with pods in wet weather. At least the gen 2 bikes anyway. That's why I would recommend using the side covers with the pods.
Try the stock filter thing first as it's the easiest and easily reversible. Also since this bike cam profile is for mid-range power I would shift around 9,500 rpm max without more aggressive cams. This bike has got an awesome mid-range so get out there and use it!!! :-)
If you wanted to experiment with your own "poor mans stage 2 airbox mod" maybe for fun maybe either buy another airbox lid or if you wanted just tape the edges of the K&N filter in there temporarily and try say 140's or 137.5's(just a guess) or something and see what that gives you. The good thing is your like an expert now on reading the plugs so an hours ride in varying traffic, high speed, low speed etc. you can look at the plugs and see if you need to go up or down. You may actually have to go one up on the pilots if you're over 4.5 turns on the mixture screws. Focus on the high speed as you're seeing if new mains will help. I believe you also take out the internal metal screen inside the airbox that the filter sits on but I wouldn't do that until your confident your very close with whatever you use with just taping the edges of the filter in there without the airbox lid. That way if it goes to hell you could always just switch back to the 112.5's and the airbox lid.
I don't know what the exact numbers are but you should get another few horses up top and I believe max power is attained around 9,000 which is a little higher. If you really want to go jihad get yourself some GSXR750 or GSXR1100 cams which moves max power up further and you get a huge increase in top end power however down low and mid range suffers a bit. The max you can get is around 120 horses without any engine work(no cams, porting, etc) which is pretty respectable. Since you already have the slip on you just need the stepped headers and voila you have a full system and some pods and there you go, plus as a bonus you keep the awsome mid-range and alot of the low end power.
Once you add the cams you get another 12-16 over that but mid-range and low-end suffers so probably total with both intake and exhaust cams plus a stage 2 with full system is around 135 or so. If you wanted to keep most if not all of the mid range you could just install the intake cam only and that would get you around 126 horsepower or so. So there are lots of options so go crazy experimenting if you like.
For me since I do alot of city traffic stage 1 is fine or maybe stage 2 airbox mod would be the max I would go for now. As soon as you put a stage 2 with pods on there you lose a little mid-range, well you don't actually "lose" mid-range but the mid-range power comes on later in the rpm range, but for around town I won't be running around at 5000 rpm just putting down the street or in traffic so I like that there is more power sooner at the cost of top end which is rarely used on the street. Also the advancer helps the power come on faster so it may be worth your while to buy one from Dale at holeshot. I didn't even drain the oil I just put it on the kick stand so the oil is on the left side of the bike, put a tinfoil pan underneath the timing cover to catch any drips and popped on the new one in like 15 mins.
If you want to know really quickly if you need more juice up top turn the mixture screws out to 4.5 turns, this will increase the overall jetting. Ignore the low speed as it will be rich as hell. But if you turn out the mixture screws and suddenly you have more power up top, you would probably need to go one up on the jets, or alternatively pop in the stock filter. Then when you're done experimenting turn the mixture screws back down to the 4 you have on there now otherwise it will drive like crap below 3000 rpm. If you richen it out temporarily and it drives worse, then you know you are too rich and then try taking out the snorkel temporarily and see if that helps.
When my bike was super rich it was acting like it was lean when hot, lower power, mushy throttle, etc. Since I leaned it out it was wheelie city. Theoretically you could be slightly rich, looking at your plugs there is some sooty deposits on the base ring and the tips of the plugs when you had it at 4.25 turns out. I know you said you turned in the mixture screws to 4 and it cleaned it up a bit. Maybe it needs another 1/4 turn in. Temporarily turning out and turning in the mixture screws will adjust the jetting over the entire range so you can tell if it needs more air or more jet. Just remember that the pilots mostly control the low range so if you turn them out to say to 4.5 and down low drives like crap but top end is awsome then you know you will need to richen out the bike. Turn them back afterwards to where they are supposed to be and go up a main jet size, try not to be tempted to compensate for a rich/lean mainjet with the pilots as it throws the jetting off all over.
Just looking again at your plugs I would say your slightly rich rather than lean and most of it seems down low so for fun go to 3.75 and see if it gives you a little more oomph. Since your in Northern Australia it's probably a tropical or sub-tropical climate so it doesn't need as much jet as colder climes. This helped me. I started the bike cold on the centre stand(keeps the fuel level in the bowls) and let it sit there warming up. As it was warming up I was revving it once and a while noting if the throttle response was getting better or worse. When it was super rich, I was noticing that as it was warming up the throttle response was getting mushier and mushier so I knew I was too rich. This is a good way to do it because your not driving it around and you can concentrate entirely on how the bike is responding to throttle inputs. This gives you an idea of the general jetting, it mostly helps with your pilot and needle settings as your going from a low rpm and revving to a higher which is controlled mostly by needle and pilot. Good luck and tell us how it's going!
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I'm going to stick to the stage 1 I think - just tweak it a bit. Advancer and 115 mains probably.
Pulled the plugs again after some "energetic" riding yesterday - all look very similar to the previous picture. Noticed an initial hint of pre-ignition yesterday on standard 91 octane fuel when loading the engine up. Refueled with 95 - fixed that.
Was looking through Dales website - imagine what sort of animal the B12 would be with the big bore kit (11:1 if you can get that), stage 2 + pods, 2x cams, full 4-2-1 system? :yikes:
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Just think if you could get your hands a on a gsxr 1100 motor, do a mild port and polish, through cams in and everything stated!!! I dont think 150rwh would be out of the question. :thumb:
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He's got a crazy bandit there with 155 horsepower that he drives around town so it's not so crazy that you can't drive it around normally. Did you try Octane to put the mixture screws out to 4.5 to see if it got a little more juice up top? It will be rich as hell down low and drive a little funny but if up top is a little stronger than you know you'll need those 115's. If you look at your plugs it seems a little rich down low at 4 turns out but you may just be compensating for a lean mainjet. I would assume if you did put 115's in there you'd probably end up around 3.5 or 3.75 turns out most likely and may have to remove a shim or two. Definitely get the advancer.
Before you get new mainjets though double check that you really need them it will save you a ton of work. So far your bike seems to run pretty good with 4 turns out and 112.5's in there so you can use that as a baseline. But up top is a little lacking this can be caused by either a lean or a rich condition. It only takes a few minutes of driving to immediately feel if there is more power or less power with these changes.
Step1:
You would want to test first to see if it's a lean condition just because the plugs look a little sooty and it eliminates any doubt that the mainjet may not need to be changed. Turn in the mixture screws to 3.5 temporarily, ignore for now any weirdness down low as we are going to test the top end. Go crazy on the top end, zoom around a little and note if the bike is better or worse up top only. If you want take a plug off the bike after zooming around for 5 or 10 minutes and take a look. Is it cleaner? Did it have more power? If so where in the rpm range. If your pilots were rich you'll notice a little more get up and go up to mid-range however check to see if up top is stronger or weaker.
Step 2:
Do the same except turn the mixture screws out to 4.5, again ignore any down low weirdness as you are testing the top end. Maybe after 5 or 10 minutes of racing around pull the plugs and check again.
Step 3:
Put the screws back to 4 turns out and race around again.
Now in this scenario you've made the bike leaner and richer and back the same so now you have a better idea of where you need to go. It really only takes maybe 20 minutes to do this test and it will definitively tell you if you need those larger jets or that maybe you're too rich and at full throttle it's giving it too much gas. Or that the pilots are adding too much to the mix at 4 turns out and a 1/4 turn in or so may clean it up. Put it this way I can do power wheelies no problem at 2.25 turns out but if I turn out the mixture screws even 1/2 turn my throttle turns into mush, no wheelies, nothing and the base ring and tip gets all sooty.
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Racing around lets go to the track and have some fun!!! These old bandits would work fine, my fiance and I took mine for a parade lap around brainerd and they kicked us off doing 150. I thought they said 50 they ment 150!!
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Sorry guys im alittle intoxicated :thumb: But ya i like this bike it commutes awesome and sports just fine. I just got to get them jets in and the spacers on the needles. I would really like to take this thing out on the track after the install and beet up some 600 guys. I went out with my lw 650 and was beeting up on a buel 1125 and bikes like that. It was funny my small bike out there putting the smack down on alot bigger bikes untill they new I was a expert racer LOL. Coming out if turn 3 I would pull on the bigger bikes LOL alot of fun, is it summer yet???
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Here's a cam view of a guy on his Bandit at willow springs. He's actually passing some guys on their sport bikes. I'm imagining the Bandit has a bit of a power advantage coming out of the turns as the mid-range torque is larger than a dedicated sportbike. He's not going slow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOruVCDUtyU&feature=related
Heres another view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOnD8Zm7n0&feature=related
Geez they really need to resurface that track its turning into a dirt track.
And on the flip side this has got to be the top candidate for LAMEST Bandit video. I like how he zooms in on that shit stock exhaust like it was a cool feature of the bike lol!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VltMu6XAg38&feature=related
Its the video equivalent of blue balls. A big run up, to some old guy triathilon marshal two upping on that kids Bandit. The sandals while riding is a nice touch! I'm sure all those shots of the tachometer revving(with only the shit synth music of course, no engine sound)is going to come in handy ferrying around a triathalon marshal at 10 mph in front of runners.
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Gotta get me some mechanics gloves to do this with a hot engine.
Drags are on next week. Things have come up other times but this time I simply have to get one in before the year's out.
We'll see how we go. Anyone want to take a guess on what ET the B12 sould run with a 100kg pilot?
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If you just take out one of the outside plugs it should give you a good idea of how the bike is generally running. Most times I can get out the plug with just my motorcycle gloves no problem just be a little careful. Although for me I've been burnt and electrocuted so many times by motorcycles I think I'm starting to like it :-(. I think stock is high 11's or low 12's with god knows what pilot on there, maybe thats midget times I don't know. Some times like Dale on his crazy 155 horsepower model is in the high 9's. At least it gives you a range.
Oh and don't use surgeons gloves unless you want to stick to the engine :-) A few trapshoots at a drag strip would definitely help you tune that upper range. Plus there are a few guys around to get an opinion when you pull the plugs. Just looking at the picture of your plugs that sooty base ring is a sure sign of overall richness, combine this with the sooty tip and I'll wager a 1/4 turn in would help. I realize you've already turned them in a 1/4 so that will help but it could use maybe a little leaner setting. If you use the crazy instructions above at least you'll get an idea. Pilots control 25% of the jetting so turning them in or out does affect the overall jetting. Because the electrodes look pretty good, no streaks of soot, etc You are probably fine on the needles and the mainjet. They do however look a little dark, that and the rich low end adds up. If you lean the pilots to where they should be the plugs get cleaned up all the way, the power comes on harder. A rich lowend will be mushy down low so you're low end will improve as well. I'll try and find a digital camera and I'll take a picture of one of my plugs which look good with a nice light but full turn of colour on the base ring, but you'll notice I have some light black streaks about half way down on the plug which means I'm a bit rich on the needle and a few tiny spots of black soot on the base ring, like 1/20th of the way around(probably due to rich needle). However it's -6 right now so those streaks are perfectly fine where they are thank you! In the spring I'll try taking a shim off the needle and see if it will improve the throttle response and may give me a pony or two in the mid-range. Hopefully it's not too much, if 4 is slightly too lean but 5 is slightly too rich, I'll stick with 5 to be on the safe side. Like I posted before 2.25 my bike thinks its a uni-cycle, 2.75 throttle turns to mushy oatmeal. That one little half a turn makes that much of a difference.
The most power one can get is just slightly richer than pre-ignition/piston melting level. However I'm not a drag racer and I'm driving on the street so better to err on the side of richness than leaness. I'll leave the bleeding edge tuning to those that tear the engine down after every race and change out their jets because the temperature went up a degree.
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MERRY CHRISTMAS GUYS AND GALS!!!! Hope all is well and have an awesome new year!!!!
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Hopefully Santa will bring us global warming for Christmas so we can go for a ride.
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Mn right now has no snow!! If it were 10* warmer I might think about it :yikes:
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Damit its 50* here and it way to windy I want to ride!!!!!!!!! :banghead:
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I cannot complain about the poor mans stage 1 kit.
Last night my best run was 11.7 seconds for the 400m. I must have weighed 110kg suited up in full leathers.
Felt heavy. Tried shifting at 10,000rpm for some runs and shifting at 8,500rpm on others.
The later I shifted the higher the trap speed but the ET was slower. The earlier I shifted the trap speed was slower but the ET was faster. NFI why. Next thing to test is the advancer with 95 octane fuel and see what that does.
A few hours before the race I went out to get some new plugs. Noone had the NGK JR9B plugs but I found the Denso equivalent. Strange looking plug with two ground electrodes. Will pull them out and post up pics.
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Good runs! How did the plugs look after with some decent runs under it's belt? What was top speed with times? I think I've seen that most people with a stage1 gets around a 11-11.5 trap time but who knows what they weigh, etc. Maybe that's Herbie Valachez from Fantasy Island?(tattoo) I don't know. I'm sure the pro riders can get better but you're in the ballpark. I think the trap times that Suzuki posts stock is with the tiniest Japanese pro rider they can find to massage the numbers so the bike can have a "happy finish"(no pun intended) :grin:.
MCN's best time stock was 11.3 but if you're weighing an extra 40 kgs over the tiny rider on there you obviously have way more than the stock 100hp as your almost the same with their pro rider. For fun you might want to get the bike dyno'd. If they are doing an A/F map just disable the PAIR bullshit by clamping the PAIR airfeed hose on the right hand side of the bike. There is a hose coming out of the bottom of the airbox that feeds under the carbs and up to the PAIR box. Just clamp it temporarily on the DYNO so it won't screw up the A/F map sensor. Otherwise it will say its crazily lean when it's not. I'm planning to get rid of mine this winter if I have to make block off plates with paper mache.
Found another 1/4 mile time
11.54sec@129mph
Stock with pro rider(magazine)
But don't look at the numbers too much as %95 of a good 1/4 mile time is the launch and the rider. What your trying to do is get an average baseline so if you hop up or tune the engine you can see tangible results. So for you with your weight, power setup, the moons and star alignment, etc. is around a mid to high 11 second 1/4 mile which is damn good because your only 10ths off from PRO riders who are lighter than you. So now if you tune and get either better trap top speeds and/or less trap times you know you're going in the right direction. I would say with the power on your bike higher than stock the power/weight ratio is probably pretty close to those magazine pro riders so really your only a few 10ths off what the pro's can do. So now say you go to pods and a stage 2 with full system, if the 1/4 mile times are shaved or your top speeds increase well your almost guaranteed that you have more power. As you practice your times will shave as well. %80 of a good 1/4 mile is the launch. Thats where the torque of the Bandit comes in handy. If you have a 1000 hp bike and you're launch is shit you'll still lose. With practice you might be able to shave off up to a half a second.
For me if I was going to the track for a PINKS like race I might go on a crash diet/liposuction and wear speedos and a tinfoil helmet for gear! :grin: Anything to reduce weight. I believe most carb tuners I've read said to try and get better ET than top speed but don't quote me. For me I would shift just a touch past Top HP which would be around 9000-9500 so the next gear would be deep in the powerband. After 8500 the power starts dropping off but due to the relative width of the 5 speed as opposed to the 6 speed it's best to go slightly past top HP RPM. Try it and see if it helps. Of course if you have GSXR cams you can go right up to just short of redline.
To give you an example of Rider over HP. I read on a forum that a guy on a stock GSXR750 got a 10.98 quarter mile time. But his friend needed a Huyabusa (+60 HP) to get a 11.5 quarter mile time. So if you're getting the same time as a guy on a Huyabusa with way more HP you're obviously doing well. Just don't tell your wife if you get a "happy finish" at the track she may misunderstand :grin:.
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Put a test pilot on my bike and 5 litres of fuel (I was running with at least 10 litres) and I reckon you'll see the low end of 11's.
My worst run was 12.1 I think. Had a terrible start on that one with the front wheel coming up and my shitting myself didn't help.
No hint of lean out on any run. Pulled hard all the way to around 9,000 I think then you could feel it was just noise after that.
A spectator who I had been chatting to earlier in the evening came up to me to say how good the Bandit sounded at full noise.
He said it was a real crisp sound - really howling. :trustme:
The Denso plugs... well after 200km of riding and 5 passes at the drags having the absolute thrashing of its life, the plugs look like they did when I installed them. The only hint of use is the ground electrodes have changed colour from the bright nickle colour to that heated metal colours (gold/purple). This is only on the tips.
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Nice! that's the key is to try and keep the front end down. If the front end comes up your losing acceleration as any potential energy is wasted lifting the front end up. Pretty good for $10 bucks worth of jets an a few hours eh? Thats why I love these bikes anyone can make them scream. What are your settings? Ie turns out, pilots, needles, mainjets. Maybe we should start sort of a "tuning book" with suggested settings for new comers. I love to see that bike on a dyno to see the HP and A/F mapping. I'm seriously considering going back to the 112.5's and trying the new K&N panel filter that I've used maybe twice, it's so lonely in the box! Might be worth it to you to order the advancer, that will help at low rpm to get the power on quicker, you may even shave a few 10th's off the time. Since the K&N does breath better I'm sure your peak power maybe up around 9000 instead of 8500, a Dyno will tell you for sure, just make sure the stupid PAIR bullshit air feed hose is clamped so it doesn't mess up any A/F readings.
Can I have my jets back?!!! :stickpoke: J/K have a spare set in storage ready for spring.
Although I know 100% I'm rich, plugs confirm it. So I may for fun just try the K&N without the 112.5's. As you can see I have 17.5's in there so it's already 2.5 CC's overall richer(same as 112.5's and 15's), problem is it's on the wrong end at the bottom. For me to get max wheelie power I have to turn my mixture screws in to 2.25 which I know is too lean because if I blip the throttle it hangs up then comes down. For me to get perfect Idle I have to turn them to 2.75, I compromised with 2.5 for now(still a little lean pilots, but overall too rich). However once they are there at 2.75 the throttle turns to mush(too rich) and the base ring is blackish. Even at 2.25 there is still bits of soot on the base rings instead of fooling around with enlarging holes, etc it might be ok with the K&N and just turning out the mixture screws to perfect idle(might end up at 3 turns). Since I'm pumping out more fuel anyway it might just even it out. It can't hurt and is easy to put back if it doesn't work out. If it drives better but not perfect then at least it's only an hour to pop in the 112.5's again.
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My settings I used to achieve the 11.7 qtr mile...
112.5 Main jets
Needles (adjustable type) 5th groove from top (full rich)
Pilots - standard
Pilot screws 3.75 turns out
91 Octane pump fuel
K&N panel filter
Air box 1.5" hole at top - leave snorkle in
New spark plugs
TPS set to factory specification
Valves were reset only 1,000km ago along with throttle balance
That's it.
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Nice. I imagine after turning the screws in from 4.25 I bet you your plugs have cleaned right up. If you're just getting light colouring after 200K kms and a few trapshoots it's probably spot on. Maybe down the road as they colour you could post for people. Good job! I plan to go to that dyno guy in the spring for fun. If I can post it I will however it's snowing outside and I forgot my snow tires so it will have to wait. Its great you just created a stage 1+ for us. I imagine you're probably getting a few ponies more than the standard stage 1.
Hey my posts are at 667! I'm the neighbor of the beast! I wonder if he'll lend me his rachet set?
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Here's an idea - setting the pilots are a real PITA. How about something unlike the idle speed control knob thing, one for each pilot screw that you can actually get your fingers on. Each quarter of the thumb screw is marked with a different colour stripe on the edge to indicate what setting you are at. That way as a tuning aid, it makes the chore of getting a screw driver bit up in there without burning yourself or missing the slot altogeather but thinking you have it and twiddling away - (hmmm sound like a familiar scenario :trustme:?) :rofl:
Also the 3.75 turns specification is quite happy anywhere between 4 and 3.75. Inspect your plugs and tune from there. Would also depend on your altitude I guess. I'm basically at sea level. I'd like to see just a hint of carbon on the plugs.
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Oh it will carbon up don't worry, just need some more miles. You can get a mixture adjusting tool but it's like $100 for a good one. I'd rather just use a screwdriver bit because once it's good you never have to touch it. This one is $60 but it's not as nice as the other one I saw. From looking at your old plugs at 4.25 I'm sure 3.75 is perfect. Because I drive from 2 to 35 degrees Celsius I will have to theoretically adjust them more than you where I doubt the temps drop to less than 20 degrees Celsius. The fact that it is carboning up slowly is proof you're running cleanly.
This may keep the burning to a minimum, $60 from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Mixture-Carburetor-Adjusting-Degree/dp/B004N0KHAQ
Heres a super Ghetto model $20:
http://www.amazon.com/POSSE-PILOT-SCREW-ADJUSTING-MOTORCYCLE/dp/B004N0FMJ2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_2
Because you're lucky and live where the mean temperature doesn't change all that much maybe just get the ghetto model. You'll probably only use it if you re-jet. For me I need to adjust it a 1/4 turn over or under 10 degrees Celcius. Under 10 2.5 Over 10 2.25 with what I have now.
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Temps here drop to single figures in Winter (deg C) and can go as high as 35 or once a few years ago it reached 40.
A side note, the K&N filter SU6505 is not what I call a perfect fit in the K6 onwards airbox. Yes it fits and seals but the outside lip is a touch too tall. Probably only by .5mm but it's enough in my books to warrant retooling that mould.
I have an opportunity to get a SU6000 K&N filter that suits K5 for $30. On the K&N 'site I checked the dimentions and they are near identical except the width is 2mm wider overall than the 6505. Anyone tried fitting a 6000 filter into a K6 onwards airbox?
Oh BTW, Happy new year :beers:
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I have the Su-6000 and it's a perfect fit for my K5 not sure of the other ones though if that helps. As long as it seals your good.
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Evidence of the drag meet...
http://www.dragphotos.com.au/p538600616/h16498e25#h16498e25
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Is that your bike? Looks nice! I'm starting to feel bad. I may actually have to wash my bike!! You got some wicked gear there my friend. It's too bad you weren't racing a Harley for Pink slips you could have really gone crazy with the Bandit with the money you sell the Harley for. Did they give you the slips for the times, etc? If you can scan one or two that would be nice to look at.
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I don't have a scanner unfortunately. I went for a ride yesterday to see if I could colour up the plugs a bit.
Must pull them out today and have a look. Bike runs really well ATM - even on standard "gas".
I did race a HD - he kicked my arse off the start. The Bandit wanted to wheelie and I backed off a bit, hit it again and it did little ones all the way down the track. I'll find the times of that race. I gotta give credit where credit is due - that guy got an awesome launch. If we went to comparing ET's then yes eventually I beat his time but the pressure was on me to not let him win and I was too agressive with the clutch too early and she bogged and wheelied and stuff. Well.... that's my excuse.
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Yeah that's the problem I have even with our 20-30 pounds of fairing on the front these bikes really pump the power on fast and want to reach the sky. I bet if we popped in the GSXR cams it might be a little less crazy at least off the start. With the standard cams which pushes the torque farther down in the power band it doesn't take much distance to start getting into the sweet spot then up it goes. Try the advancer which should help down low and I'm sure it will be even crazier. Fortunately for me I have a built in slipper system---> a Rear Z6 Metzeler that while is great for wear but takes like half an hour to warm up properly. So if I give it too much gas it just starts spinning which is a little hairy as you can imagine. I'll change it in the spring as I got it for free almost brand new from a guy who put Perelli's on his BMW and it's getting a little tired.
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Pulled the plugs. They still haven't got any colouring on them yet. Basically look brand new. :wtf:
Maybe they ignite the a/f mix better than the single ground electrode type NGK? If so, maybe I can go richer again?
Nothing ever remains static does it? Just when I think I got it sorted I go and change plugs and now this presents new questions. :rant2:
Well, on the bright side these Denso plugs are half the price of their NGK counterparts. Denso plugs for B12 $7ea. NGK's are between $12 and $15 each from bike stores here. Yep, the STANDARD ones - not iridium, or platinums. ebay I can get NGK's for $20 for 4 or something like that.
This thread is getting r e a l l y long, should we start a new one?
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The dual spark might be a slightly hotter/more complete burn, running cleaner. Any hint of leaness? Ie hesitation when wacking the throttle open? Etc? Excessive popping? If not don't worry about it. If you want do alot of in town driving, will lots of idling, low speeds, etc. That will carbon them up faster. Since you basically have the same jetting as before it's not going to kill anything, but if you want to try 4 turns out for fun go for it. It does take a while to carbon them up. If the jetting was fine before I would just leave it for a while at least. See what happens after 1000kms. Proper jetting doesn't change after new plugs. The same effect of the dual sparks can be reproduced better by side-gapping the plugs but the plugs wear out a little faster, good allegedly for another horsepower or two.
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Dual Spark? More likely to be only one spark to the electrode that has the best ionization path when the charge is reached to arc. Dual electrodes increase lifetime and reliability.
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Does not dual ground staps mean a dual spark? Or does it randomize between the path of least resistance as voltage is applied to the plug? I've been looking at the Denso site and they have some interesting spark plugs there, some even are doing the side gapping thing to get more of the spark exposed to the fuel charge. I haven't seen these types for motorcycles in Canada, I wonder if they are around here and I'm just not seeing them. Hmmm. For fun when I change my spark plugs out I may side gap the older ones for fun to see if it actually does burn better or not. Since I will be throwing them out anyway if it goes wrong at least I'm not wasting the plugs. The problem with side gapping while it slightly increases fuel mileage and maybe a slight increase in power, it reduces plug life. If you're super crazy and replace your plugs every year I guess it wouldn't matter but for the rest of us it may be more of a pain then gain. However on the flip side it must be doing something otherwise the spark plug manufacturer's wouldn't bother with it otherwise.
With the factory "side gapping" with two ground straps it's less of a problem since it has double the amount material that needs to wear out. So theoretically if for some reason it wears out one electrode you still have another one in there to get a good spark.
I found a link that sort of explains side gapping what it does and doesn't do. Allegedly it's an old racers trick that dates from the late 60's. I imagine to get even more of a benefit you would have to index the plugs as well. From what I gather on the internet the biggest benefit is fuel economy where the mixtures are in lean cruise and any ignition efficiency helps in power which translates to fuel economy at very small throttle openings. It also reduces fouling and generally gives you a cleaner burn which may help with emissions.
It's basically the poor man's premium spark plug mod
http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/plugsidegapping.html
Octane is lucky since his factory side-gapped and dual ground strapped Denso's are actually cheaper than the stock NGK's. I've been using the stock NGK's and they are usually pretty pricey around 9 or $10 for one plug. However I can't seem to find a cheaper replacement at Canadian Tire. I understand a lot of guys here really like the Autolite brand, however here we only have AC Delco's as an American brand for spark plugs, unless they are a re-branded Autolite.
Heres a forum link with Dyno numbers before and after. This is a car but a Gas engine is a gas engine. He picked up 7 horsepower on his car. 5 from side gapping and 2 from indexing.
http://www.sr20-forum.com/naturally-aspirated-all-motor/16898-how-side-gap-spark-plugs.html
He cut his ground strap right to the edge of the electrode, maybe to be safer maybe I'd grind a little less to maybe just before so there is a bit of an overlap. Some guys only go to the middle of the electrode so I guess you can experiment. After all the Dyno doesn't lie. Realistically you'd probably see only 1 or 2 hp MAX gain but the fuel economy and cleaner burning would be the greatest benefit.
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Here is our Ho hum stock NGK JR9B's that I have:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OeRaVDK9L._SS350_.jpg)
If you look closely at the ground strap, NGK has tapered the end of the ground strap and put it squarely on top of the centre of the electrode so it is already better than say a normal automotive plug where the ground strap completely covers and shrouds the electrode. It wouldn't take much to file it down slightly to be in line with the electrode. Since it's already tapered they must have thought the same thing about letting the ground strap not interfere with the flame front as much as possible. I've seen some other guys file their spark plugs to a point with a more aggressive taper when they side gap with a little overlap of the ground strap onto the electrode so I guess NGK must be thinking the same thing however they didn't do it so aggressively to let the plugs last. Although I have had my plugs in there for 3 years and other than the normal build up of soot, they look new. No sign of wear yet however I'm not redlining the bike everywhere.
Is this your plug Octane?
(http://www.globaldenso.com/en/products/aftermarket/plug/config/images/35.jpg)
As you can see the spark is going to jump from the sharp edges of the ground strap to the centre electrode at the side so when the fuel is ignited and creates the power to push the piston down the ignition is not being shrouded and interfered with by the ground strap covering the spark.
Here's NGK's "racing" plug, what is it really? It's just a extremely side-gapped single ground strap plug. Nothing fancy. If it didn't work I don't think they would make it. This may be a little too aggressive for the street, gaping it up in line with the electrode gives it some more meat to last.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/spark_plugs/racing.asp?mode=nml#
Here is a pic I captured from a movie of a spark plug firing, as you can see the spark is taking the shortest route possible from the electrode right where you trim the ground strap for this mod. The rest of the ground strap is barely being used so all it's doing is shrouding the spark from the fuel/air mixture
(http://184.154.190.10/spark.jpg)
Heres a cool video showing normal and the 4 prong expensive jobbies compared to this new ring technology plug. But as you can see in the video with the normal plug there is almost no exposure of the spark head on as the spark is shrouded by the ground strap. Looking at the 4 prong expensive jobbies it does a way better job of exposing the spark, except I don't want to pay $25 a plug when a cheaper one will do the same job with a few mins with the dremel or file. Even if you only get a couple of years out of the cheap plugs it's still a good deal as you can buy 4 times the amount of normal plugs than the fancy plugs cost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY-mfctgB9A&feature=related
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After reading NGK's 'site about plugs - really as long as your plug is in good condition, correct type and heat range, that's all you need. Iridiums / platinums are IMO a waster of money for a Bandit. They're so easy to pull out and replace. If you had say a car you had to dismantle half the induction system to get to the plugs, then yes the long life ones would make sense.
These Denso plugs, I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to get. It's just that where I live they are easiest and cheapest to procure. May even buy a box of them while they are that price. Should last me years.
Used to be a plug back in the 90's called splitfire. Had a forked ground electrode and a V grooved centre electrode from memory.
Big claims etc. meh....
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Splitfire sort of does the same thing by moving the spark to the edges of the ground strap to get closer to the A/F mixture with a V to help expose the spark to the fuel charge. Really the best plug in the world would be one that uses plasma or grounds on the piston crown or something with zero interference from ground straps. I'm willing to give this a go a little later in the season when I normally change my plugs. I'll mod the old ones and throw them in there, I know the best test is with a new set of plugs but if it doesn't work so great I would rather wreck the ones I was going to throw out anyway. In the States it's even easier as you can get sparkplugs down there for like $2 so a wasting $8 on a set is not a big deal at all. I wouldn't bother side gapping Iridiums or any other fancy spark plugs, this is only a good mod for the super cheap specials as they will wear out faster. The fancy plugs address the problem of ground strap shrouding in their own ways so it's not as necessary to side-gap them.
I believe this mod might actually work better than the 2 or 4 ground strap jobbies as the spark is higher on the spark plug which will ignite deeper into the fuel charge. However like the article on this mod suggested that if the spark plug manufacturers make their "premium" plugs basically the same as their standard but with the ground strap slightly trimmed but charged you $10 for $2 plug everyone would side gap their plugs at home. So they try to hide it on their premium plugs with multiple ground straps or special materials etc. so the customers can justify the higher price and can't readily reproduce them.
The only benefit I can see out of all of the premium plugs currently out there is the ones with rare materials such as platinum or iridium which are very tough materials which may allow the plugs to theoretically run for the life of the vehicle. The also have a very fine tips which increase the spark power. The newer ones in development have a ring or the electrodes are sunken and the ground strap is the edge of where the base ring is so the spark is massive and instead of a single ground strap to wear out there is a whole ring so they should last theoretically for the life of the car but I'm not sure thats a good thing as far as the spark plug manufacturers are concerned.
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One thing I noticed thismorning. Roads were empty so I was having an experiment with the bike. 3rd gear & 5000rpm (approx) maintaining that speed and throttle and then would pin the throttle wide open and hold it for 2-3 seconds.
What I noticed was a slight hesitation but not from the initial opening. It would power on and momentarily hesitate and then power on again. Tried this over a few times.
Tried it in 5th at about 4000rpm. No hesitation.
Would you think this may be needle setting?
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Could be. I'd say mainjet is probably a little light as the throttle was wide open so the needle wouldn't make a difference. I got my 112.5's and my 15's I just have to wait until its warm to install and test. What was the temp/altitude? You have the needle full rich already correct? A lower gear so you can feel the power more which is useful, at top gear it's kind of hard to tell. Since the power came on fast up to probably 3/4 throttle I'd say your needle is fine. Maybe try some 115's and tell me so I can save a step!!! :grin: However it is in the mid-range so you could try a shim if you have them if your maxed out on the needle which may hide the hole better or maybe a 1/4 turn out to four turns which will slightly richen the overall mixture. But I'd wager a dollar it's the mainjet. I'm not sure what the equivalent needle position is with my 5 Holeshot shims are like on there but from what I've read it's full rich on an adjustable PLUS 1 shim. If it ever gets above 2 degrees Celsius I'll pop the new jets in there and try it but it will be super cold and is not really a good test.
If you want to test up top try putting taping over 1/8th of the airbox hole up, or pop in the stock filter temporarily and test again. No more as if it's too rich it will do the same thing. But since we'll be both be only 1 step up from the stock filter stage 1 which flows WAY LESS than the K&N I'd say 115's is probably perfect. If you go up you may have to adjust the needle but leave it where it is for now as the problem area is up top >3/4 throttle. I have the same symptoms but even more exaggerated as I'm one below you. Even with the horridly rich cruise which helps a bit I get the same thing
Power--->Hesitate--->Power
If the needle was the problem it would hesitate on initial throttle opening then take off like this:
Hesitate---->Power
Remember these bike are carburated and not fuel injected so a very slight hesitation(almost imperceptible) would be normal, but the degree of "normal" would be determined by a plug check after a 2-3 second full throttle run and then hitting the kill switch and checking the plugs. The last 2/3 of the centre electrode will be burned clean but the base ring around where the ground strap is welded to would show you if you were lean or rich. It should be lightly coloured with a full turn of grey soot and deep in the plug at the base of the electrode. If there are spots of black on it it's too rich. If the grey soot doesn't go all the way around for a full turn and the base of the electrode deep in the plug is bone white it's too lean. A dyno pull or two with an air fuel chart would really help you out but if you do that be sure to either remove the PAIR bullshit or at least clamp the PAIR air feed on the right hand side of the airbox underneath the carbs so it doesn't register artificially lean.
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Haven't followed this entire thread, but I got 4 NGK Iridiums for $30 shipped.... which given their abililty to last longer than standard plugs... makes it definitely worth the investment.
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Sorry Paul, what were you saying? Your sig distracted me. :grin: I think this must be one of the longest running threads on this board. It has it all from plug choice/side gapping etc. to jetting. :yikes:
I would agree with Paul that the new Iridiums do look interesting and it eliminates mostly the problem of the spark being shrouded from the fuel charge from the ground strap. And theoretically they would be the last spark plugs you buy. I guess they harnessed some meteorites or something for the iridium.
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Well I popped in those jets and I can say for sure that the rich cruise problem is fixed however 112.5's are not enough. Now its only about 10 degrees Celsius here now for the testing. I can say it's close but it defiantly needs at least one more to 115 mainjet with the K&N filter on there 117.5 on the outside. You being around 30 degrees Celcius will be closer but I would wager you need 115's at least as well. That is probably why your hesitating at mid-range which is a leaner area on rpm range when going full throttle. When the bike cools I'll pull the plugs to get a general jetting as it was rush hour so I didn't go above 60 or 70 km/h however for now I'll pop the stock filter on there and see what happens.
Settings:
15 pilots 4 turns out(perfect with K&N)
112.5 mains (too lean with K&N)
1.5 inch hole in airbox
K&N filter(will go back to stock)
5 shims
If I pop the stocker on there I may have to adjust the mixture screws in a 1/4 turn but at least the horrid richness down low is fixed. Tomorrow is another 10 degree day so I'll test it again with the stock filter on there and see, it may be ironically a little rich. At least I still have the 110's I'll see whether I want to go up(K&N) or down(Stock filter). Or it may be fine as I was a little lean up top with the 110's.
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Ok its been a while but I finally tore into my bandit. It had the stock filter, 110 mains, 17.5 pilots, I got a snorkel and theres a 1.5 hole in the air box. I didnt pull the top apart to see what kind of needles are in there. Everything looked clean no shit no biuld up but I still have the top end hesitation. Im going to get the 112.5 mains with the 17.5s about how many turns out do I want to be?? I seen 4 with stock pilots so around 2??
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It's 1 1/2 turns in on the equivalent lower size pilot jet. Whats the temperature in your area? I think Dale is over using the upped pilot jets. His kit didn't use to come with the larger pilot jet however a few people needed them for where they were living so he threw it in there and recommend it in his instructions. It makes it horridly rich down low, he also forgets to mention in the instructions that if you go up one on the pilots you must turn in the screws 1 1/2 turns in(got that from factory pro) to get the equivalent mixture at idle with the stock ones. So say you are 4 turns out on 15's that means you will be 2.5 turns out on the 17.5's to get the equivalent idle mixture.
So his recommended settings:
3.75 turns out on the 15's would be
2.25 on the 17.5's
4 tuns at the 15's = 2.5 at the 17.5's etc. etc.
You may have to go back to the 15's after you pop the 112.5's in there, but maybe not depending on your bike. For me the 17.5's, it was horridly rich and I'm at only 1000 ft altitude. His recommended settings were wonky on my bike. Super rich down low and cruise, lean up top. So I popped in the stock pilots and have them to 4 turns out for now, but I know its a bit much should be more to his recommended 3.75 turns out but I'll have to test in the spring. Really his instructions should read: "If you go past 4.25 or 4.5 turns out then go the next pilot up and turn the mixture screws in 1 1/2 turns in". You can't just arbitrarily suggest everyone goes up on the pilots. Pilots and cruise mixtures are not usually an issue on these bikes, it's all top end and mid-range thats weak. If you went to a stage 2 then I could see you needing larger pilots but for a stage 1 which is mostly a stock config, I think it's a bit much. At low throttle inputs the 1.5" hole isn't making that much of a difference. Only at larger throttle inputs does it really come into effect and that's all needle and mainjet. Plus the mainjet size will have a small effect on cruise and down low anyway.
75% of the cruise and idle mixture is dictated by pilot size
25% is the mixture screw setting.
So if your rich on the pilots, even if you bottomed out the mixture screws it would only kill off 25% of the needed mixture for idle. However 25% is alot and since the stage 1 is really only coming into play at larger throttle inputs the pilot jet in the stock configuration can probably do the job just fine as you are using the stock filter. If you go to a K&N pod type situation then you will defiantly have to go up on the pilots as the air flow dynamic has changed. I'm keeping my 17.5's in case I need them when going to the K&N panel filter stage 1 but I doubt I'll need them. Pods however is a different story.
Since you're already at 110's + 17.5's your about the same overall in jetting to what I am at, but if the pilots are supplying that extra 2.5cc of jetting down low it's in the wrong rpm/throttle range. Maybe you like me need more up top, and less down low. Put it this way. You have 110 main jet + 17.5 pilot jet so you are supplying 127.5 cc/min fuel max(+ or - mixture screw settings). I have a 112.5 main + 15 size pilot so I'm at 127.5 max as well, we have the same overall jetting however I'm supplying the extra juice up top where it's needed. While the pilots do add to the overall jetting, on the stage 1 all the juice needs to be at the top not the bottom. So when you are tuning your bike your using the mixture screws to adjust idle and cruise to not be so crazily rich so any advantage of those larger pilots helping you up top is lost a bit. The sole function of the pilots is to provide cruise and idle and below 1/4 turn throttle inputs. I know Dynojet likes to use mainly the pilots as a crutch to provide a disproportional amount of fueling in their kits, that's why they suck on the GEN2 Bandits, the pilot is too small to provide the kind of fueling needed by their fueling philosophy and why their mainjets are actually LEANER than stock and use their specially tapered needle to provide a fueling profile. Some guys like to tune their bikes to be super lean at cruise to get fuel milage but have huge mainjets so when they are on the throttle they have power. However this is at a cost of drivability and below half throttle performance. It's sort of a all or nothing thing which some guys like.
EDIT:
Sorry forgot to mention I'm back on the stock filter. The K&N needs probably at least 115's or 117.5's to be good. I'll try that out in the spring maybe, it's running pretty good like this:
15 pilots 4 turns out(slightly rich but it's cold out 3.75 should be good in spring)
112.5 mains One up from Dales recommended settings
5 shims.
Stock air filter
1.5" hole in the airbox.
snorkel in
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I checked the needles and theres a white plastic shim in there 1/8in thick im guessing thats stock??
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Does it look like a "doughnut"? I'm eating dinner but I'll get you a pic in 30 mins.
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Ya little white donut!! :thumb:
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Yeah thats the spacer don't remove it. Are there any shims under the doughnut?
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No, I got the ones from radio shack. There all different sizes but I think there same thicknesses.
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Yeah they work fine. The radio shack shims are equivilent to 2 Holeshot. So 2 Radio shack shims on there will do for a stage 1. If it doesn't have any shims under there thats probably your problem. Try a couple of shims and see if that helps you out before going to the trouble with installing new jets.
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Alright lets start over my eyes(slap me!!) There was 5 little spacers on the needles, I didnt see them after pulling out the needle whom ever put them in should have put them under the donut. They came out when I flipped the slide upside down. So now I thought I'll check the mixture screws they had them at 4 turns out with the 17.5 pilots in. If I leave in he spacers and back the mixtures screws out to 2.5 turns you think that will do it? Or should I just go get the 112.5s?
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But if I go 2.5 turns out then it'll be leaner right, ya I think thats the way it works. I think im going to need the bigger jets. Thanks for all the help Rider!!!
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No you got it right. 2.5 turns on the 17.5's is the equivilent of 4 turns on 15's at idle. However the 17.5's will still be slightly richer at cruise than 15's. You may actually be totally fine with the 110's in there. I needed 112.5's but you may be fine. Keep in mind it's winter as well so a little leaness is expected. What I would do to make it easier on yourself. Is get it running as good as you can with what you have in there then do a check of where you need to go. A rich mixture will cause hesitation as much as a lean one. Just make sure you have all the same number of shims. If you have 5 little shims on there chances are there is a holeshot in there, keep the 5 shims and adjust the mixture screws so it's driving well then maybe check the plugs and see what they are saying to you.
For example when I had your setup. I could wheelie like crazy at 2.25 turns but at 2.75 turns it ran like a dog because there was too much fuel down low. Now when I had it at 2.25 turns out it would drive a little wonky as it was fine up to about 6-7000 rpm then got weak with the small mainjet. The fueling was off where I was compensating with an overrich pilot with the screws and having a lean mainjet. However that is my bike, your bike may be totally fine with 17.5's. I would start out at 2.5 which is close to the recommended settings from Holeshot and see how it goes from there. Drive at least 20 minutes before adjusting anything so you know your fully warmed up.
I'm basically the same overall fueling as you however I moved the extra 2.5cc/min of fuel up top where it was needed on my bike. Cruise and down low was waaaay too rich on my bike with the 17.5's so I reduced the pilot and upped the mainjets. We have basically the same fuel going in there but I'm putting it where it's most needed up top. I'm at 4 turns out right now but I think it's a little much but it's like 40F degrees max when I go out to test it. Probably when it's warmer it should be around 3.75 or so. I can tell its a little lean at this temp which is a good thing as if it was perfect at this temp it would be horridly rich at summer temps.
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I will try it after I go through and clean everything. Maybe its a pinched line or something, Im going to put all new on as long as I got it all tore apart.
The reason I think the main is to small is that its fine when Im just tooling around, but when I pick up the pace and use full throttle it dose this. But its funny It'll be fine for awhile then slowly start to hesitate off and on full throttle then the more I use it the worst it gets. Now im starting to think its a bad gas line, it was soft and mushy. I dont know!!!!!!!!!!! Im pulling my hair out what I have left LOL :duh:
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Well put it this way if you dumping alot of fuel in there at cruise with rich pilots, dumping more and more fuel with more and more throttle is going to make it worse and worse. If you were at 4 turns out on 17.5's(holy phuck batman!) thats the equivilent of 5 and 1/2 turns out on 15's!!!! turn those puppies in to 2.5 and work from there but only after you've run at least 20 minutes minimum. I would wager if you pull your plugs they're sooty as hell. Maybe pull one to confirm.
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Ok I will do that!!! I'll let you know what I find out :thanks:
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If you have the time and enough jackets go for a semi-long highway ride to clear out all the coking at having those pilots so rich. Even just 20 minutes on the highway will really help you out. Maybe some fresh gas couldn't hurt either if you can top up the tank with some fresh stuff. Since it drives worse and worse as it heats up I'd be dollars to doughnuts it crazily rich.
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Well I still got the carbs on the bench now and its supposed to snow 3 days this week so next week. Im getting excited and sounds like you know your shit!!! I love the bike but wish I would have gotton the 1250 with EFI!! :motorsmile:
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I love the bike but wish I would have gotton the 1250 with EFI!! :motorsmile:
You won't say that after a valve adjust, or coolant change, or oil change. ( :stickpoke: to the 1250 guyz) :rofl:
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Hey while it's on the bench make sure the float heights are set to 13mm. Mine were all over hell's half acre from the factory. Also make sure the emulsion tubes and jets are nice and snug. Be careful they are soft brass so don't go jihad tightening them in there. nice and snug is fine. You can set your mixture screws easily to 2.5 turns to start.
Also EFI has it's own gremlins as well. Number 1 being you can't rejet it with $12 in jets. But it does a better job when you buy a power commander or EFI override module. But they are pricey. Once the carbs are set up nicely, they will work just fine and generally won't have to be touched again, but if you wanted faster warmups in the winter you could turn the mixture screws a 1/4 turn out under 50F, turn them back in a 1/4 over 50F once you have them set properly. Ie if you're good at 2.5 when it gets cold maybe turn them to 2.75 when it's super cold it will help warmups and running, but if you're uncomfortable with that or forgetful you can just leave them where you are good but just remember the bike will take a little while longer to come up to steam and may be slightly lean in winter.
Sync the carbs up using this method and your good:
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.0
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Carbs back in the bike(them dam throttle cable kick my ass!!!) If I have time tomarrow I'll giver her a shot. Man I wish I could meet the guy that put the carb kit in!!! He put 6 spacers on one needle then I got to the last one there was five but one was bigger round that the rest, but theres a small spacer supposed to be on the top under the small spring for the retainer and it was gone. He use that washer/spacer for under the needle, I want to slap this dushe!!
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I'm assuming they are all the same now right? 5 holeshots on each? He probably was just a little careless. If he thought all the spacers including the top washer(???)should be used to shim the needle then you're damn right it's going to be rich!!! Holy! What's worse if he put that top washer on the bottom of the shims the needles won't even seat properly and get stuck like halfway into the slide itself. It could have been the equivalent of like 10 shims(!) worth if the needles didn't seat properly, who knows? Even if he put the larger washer right under the doughnut so it seated properly, it's still at the minimum of 6+ shims worth. That, combined with 4 turns out on the larger pilots, I'm suprised the bike drove at all. Pull a plug and post a pic if possible. I'm sure it's blacker than a coal mine if you haven't fixed it already.
If the carb float bowls have the hex bolts on there, if you need to change the jets don't bother taking the throttle and choke cables off, just loosen the boots and slide the carbs left and right in there so you can get to the inner carbs when you change the jets. If he had uneven number of shims on some of the cylinders I would hate to see what the sync would look like! Man it would be super wonky. If he synced it as best he could like that and you fixed it to where it should be I would sync them again to try and clean up the insanity. Just use the homemade ghetto style manometer method if you don't have the $100 tool, use the $5 ghetto tool.
Like this one:
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=13207.0
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Ya I went threw and made sure everything was right, can I use just a strait piece of wood or do I need to use a yard stick for the syc. I think your useing the yard stick for the lines right to make it easier to keep things lined up. I havent learned how to sync carbs before but I think I can figure it out, your adjust the mixture screws alittle to make them equal to the other carb your attacked to??
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No just set all the mixture screws all the same for now. I guess that would be around 2.5 for you(at least to start). It doesn't matter what you use. I used a yard stick because I had one kicking around, but I could have ripped a branch off a tree as long as it was relatively straight. You just want something that will stand up right and relatively level a yard stick as a square bottom so it's sits nicely when propped up against a wall or the side of the bike. Since you are just making it so that the two sides are pulling together and one is not pulling more or moving the oil to one side you don't need to have any markings or anything, nor do the have to be level. The oil just shouldn't be moving from one side to the other.
Once the throttles are pulling all the same and the float heights and mixture screws are all the same. Then look and see if maybe one cylinder is a little lean or rich. But I highly doubt you need to adjust only one mixture screw far from where the others are set. Best practice is to make them all the same as much as possible. If 2.5 is too lean or too rich turn the ALL out until it's good. If a cylinder is slightly leaner or richer it probably won't make much a difference on the grand scheme of things.
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Ya I went threw and made sure everything was right, can I use just a strait piece of wood or do I need to use a yard stick for the syc. I think your useing the yard stick for the lines right to make it easier to keep things lined up. I havent learned how to sync carbs before but I think I can figure it out, your adjust the mixture screws alittle to make them equal to the other carb your attacked to??
Check out this thread for some good carb sync information.
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=12666.0
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Went for a ride tonight oh boy that was chilly!!! Its 32 right now outside, it ran pretty good and didnt do what it did before. It pulled pretty steady threw the rpm range up till 10gs, before when I would rev it-it would puff black alittle bit from being to rich. When I rev it now its really snappy and no more black puff. Now im going to make that cheap sync tool and do that then she'll pure like kitten!!! It idles alittle rough but I can deal with that right for now. Rider if you were closer Id bring you some beers!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Buddy!!!!! :beers:
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Ya I went threw and made sure everything was right, can I use just a strait piece of wood or do I need to use a yard stick for the syc. I think your useing the yard stick for the lines right to make it easier to keep things lined up. I havent learned how to sync carbs before but I think I can figure it out, your adjust the mixture screws alittle to make them equal to the other carb your attacked to??
Check out this thread for some good carb sync information.
http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=12666.0
Sweat thanks good info sounds easy!!!
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No problem. I had the same issue because if you follow Dales instructions he makes no mention of where the screws should be with the larger pilots in there so you turn the recommended 3.75 turns and it all goes to shit. Now that they are more or less where they should be or at least closer you should be getting a more normal fueling. Because it's so cold you will probably be experiencing a little leaness, which you should be. If it ran perfectly at 32 degrees at summer temps you'd be back to rich hell-land. After the sync and when the temps go up a bit you'll be in better shape to adjust as necessary. Hell 2.5 may be a little rich still at 75F but at least your not drowning your engine now and your fuel economy will go up as well as the power. If you're good at say 2.25 at 75F, now you know when fall comes around and temps go below say 50F you can turn the mixture screws out to 2.5 to give you a little juice when its colder to improve warmups and drivability. If the previous owner synced it with his cluster phucked shim job then yeah I'm sorry it will probably need a sync very very badly.
That link that txbandit gave you is a good one. Take a perusal and see if you're confident enough to try the poor mans carb sync. If you need help just grab one of us here to walk you through the sync process, it only takes 30 mins and the hardest part is the crazy vacuum nipple positions on the carbs.
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I wouldnt say it was perfect yet the little testing I did but ya this spring/summer when it warmer I'll fine turn it. What size plug wrench is that plug?? I used metic deeps and standards I didnt feel anything grab.
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Did the bike come with the tool kit? There should be a hexagonal tool in there that fits inside the head. It's a 17mm I believe if you use something else. In fact who knows when the previous owner even changed the plugs? Might be worth a look to see if they're rough. If you want to keep them for now, take some light grain sandpaper or even a nail file and get as much of the deposits as you can off there lightly. Just don't go crazy with a grinder wheel or something. Also if it was synced all crazylike with the previous owners experimentation, you may have a cylinder or two a bit lazy which would kill some of the smoothness and power as the engine is dragging around a lazy cylinder. A carb sync will cure that.
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I dont remember if it had one or not :duh:. I'll have to do some looking
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Should be under the seat toward the back end of the bike underneath a rubber strap. It's a black pouch filled with tools.
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Ya I know where it is just dont remember if I took it out and tossed it or kept all of it.
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Well don't sweat it too much you can get aftermarket tool kits.
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I dont need the kit but the right socket to get in there, tryed again tonight and a 17mm socket does what the rest do and dosent grab(cant feel the shoulders of the plug) and ya its a deepwell. On a different note went into the shed smelled gas and looked. On the bottom of the bowls were wet but no puddles, bike wasnt flooded(started right up). Hopefully the oring on the bowls will expand or i'll have to pull them and replace them, this happened on my race bike with the thermastat oring.
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Do you have stainless steel hex bolts or the soft brass screws on there? I find when I put the stainless steel hex bolts I could get a little more purchase on the bolts and could tighten them a little more without wrecking them.
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SS I got them pretty tight for the size they are, having them apart for a while dryed the the oring so hopefully they will swell.
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Is possible it's cold and dry in the winter time, which doesn't do them any favours.
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Ya thats very possible im just guna leave it and see what happens when I ride for a longer period of time. Its not bad but can see alittle gas on the bottoms of the bowls.
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Where the drain plug spigots are? Maybe take a philips and make sure the drain plug screws are snug.
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Ya thats the first thing I did, I checked everything under to see if anything was loose.
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Ok then you're good, wait until maybe spring or summer then see. If your petcock is working well the most that can spill out is what's in the fuel line and in the bowls. So don't sweat it 'till then.
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This is kinda bugging me!! You think if I put some heat to it with a hair dryer that will do it??
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I'm not sure gasoline and heat would be a good idea....How bad are they leaking you could always just order new gaskets from www.bikebandit.com.
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Ya I suppose if the dam hair dryer would spark Id have problems LOL. Its just wet alittle not to bad, I just hate leaving something unfinished.
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I'm with 123 here, with ANY fuel leak, you need to find the source of the leak and fix it.
I know it's a pain but likely take the carb bowls off again and either replace the bowl o-ring/gasket, or clean them up and add some gasket sealant on reassembly.
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See if you can find out which one is leaking, if your lucky it may be an outside carb and it would literally take like 10 minutes to change. It may not be as bad as you think. Maybe for fun scrunch up some paper towel and put them on each of the bowls with something easy to take off like masking tape. That way it will be super easy to figure out which one is the culprit from the wetness of the paper towel.
Put the bike on the centre stand in case it's number 3 or 4 carb as the leak would just wick down the carb bank on the side stand and you might be replacing a gasket for no reason
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And before you actually pull the carbs, make sure it not running down from a leaking fuel line or connection! :duh:
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Everything is cool now, they swelled up no more gas leak. Ive built a couple race bikes and work on my own everything under the tank is probibly over kill with hose clamps doubled with zipties. I knew for from the start it was the bowl gaskets and off to the real topic-- Took my bike out today, temp was 58 and this thing feels like a different bike when adjusted right. Still got to sync the carbs witch I think will smooth everything out but she runs pretty dam good!! Thanks again rider!!!! :motorsmile: :beers:
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Yeah no problem! I just finished up today with a poor man sync and my bike is running awesome now that I got rid of those 17.5 pilots and went up to 112.5 mains. It's almost uncontrollable. I'm afraid to go past half throttle under 3rd gear it keeps lifting up. :grin: I just did a poor man's sync today as it was 15C out today but I couldn't get that damn number 2 vacuum nipple, I've built extenders for carbs 1 and 3 and have one for 2 but I can't get in there without taking the damn carbs off. I'm going to go to my friends bike shop next weekend so we can get some real tools in there and see if it can't be done. I'm not sure WTF Suzuki was thinking. I guess the drunk guy at the factory was like "Oh yeah bike owners love to take the entire bike apart to do a simple carb sync!" I almost wished they stuck with the RF900 carbs the gen 1 uses with the vacuum nipples nicely situated on top of the carbs so you can actually reach them. As it stands now 3 and 4 are spot on and number 1 is synced with 3 and 4 so it's close but I can tell that number 2 needs some lovin' as I can artificially make it idle slightly smoother by turning the mixture screw in to starve it a bit of fuel so I can tell it's running slightly hotter than number 1. Still pretty good though. I wish I thought of the extenders when I had the carbs off, I guess I was thinking more about jetting then convenience at the time.
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Ya mines got them already, they stick out just past the carbs on both sides with one of course going to the tank.
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I got a good tip for you on the poor mans sync:
Ok after a great deal of pain and suffering I finally got the extender on carb number 2 finally. It's now super easy to sync the bike up and I want to share a little tip with you guys which really helps out the smoothness alot. Since this guage is so accurate you can also fine tune your mixture screws as well. As we all know there will be microscopic machining differences, slide spring tension blah blah blah. Needless to say every cylinder will be just slightly different than the next. What you should do before the sync is go for a low throttle cruise around town, no full throttle 1/4 mile burnouts, etc ,etc just a nice leisurely cruise under 1/8th throttle to make sure the plugs are being coloured mostly with the cruise or pilot mixtures. This way when you take a look at them, you'll notice that some of them might be a little richer or leaner than others. Make a note. For instance my number 2 cylinder is a little richer than all the others which are very close to one another.
When you're syncing the pairs and have them pull nicely together at idle put a little pressure on the throttle and bring up the rpm a few hundred rpm, say to 1500 or 1600 or so an look at which cylinder is pulling more now. So you look at the super expensive top of the line guage you made and realize. "Hey when I give it a little throttle, number 2 pulls more, then they are the same when I release the throttle WTF!!!!!!". The reason for this is as the rpms come up slightly the mixture will lean out a bit, the cylinder which is slightly richer won't lean out as much and have slightly more power than the one that is leaner. So you have 2 options:
1. You can richen up the leaner cylinder to match the richer one
2. Lean out the richer one to match the leaner one
What your trying to do is pick the best out of the pair. Since my number 2 cylinder had a bit of soot on the base ring and my number 1 cylinder plug looked perfect I leaned out the richer one so that when light(I'm talking just pressure)throttle was applied, they were now pulling up together in sync. Just be careful of the mixture screws, especially with the accuracy of the guage, doesn't need much turning at all I think I turned like less than 1/8th of a turn more like 1/12th or some other fraction I can't calculate. A good way to test if all the pistons are pulling the same is to move along in first gear just above idle at like 1500 or something insane. A slight downhill may help here, you can actually at this low speed feel the pistons power pulses. If there is a slight push every once and a while and it's not smooth than chances are the cylinders are pushing at different power rates, governed by the mixture screws at that level. In my case I had a cylinder rich, but if you had a cylinder that was lean it would still do it, though maybe not as noticeable(check the plugs). In this way you can get a hyper accurate sync probably way better than any bouncy ass dial. Remember this is only for the slow speed/less than 1/8th of a throttle sync, which is where you're going to feel smoothness or roughness. At higher rpm/throttle, it doesn't matter as much although I would wager that having all the cylinders mixtures super close together is going to make the bike at ALL rpms ranges smoother.
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Rider I got a new problem- after a 200 mile ride I got junk in one of the needle/seat, bike sat and floaded out. I pulled the carbs cleaned them again. This time the vent hoses going along the sides of the air box they were hard so the pulled them and tossed them, plugging the fitting with rgv. Now the bike runs rich but that could because it was flooded, before I pull the plugs and replace them do these hoses have to be open not plugged. Thanks Deano!!
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Are you talking about the vacuum sync port extenders? Then yes they have to be plugged when not syncing otherwise your bike will run like shit(too lean) and you'll burn a valve eventually or maybe burn a hole in the piston. If your talking about the overflow hoses for the fuel tank then they need to be open. If you have a gen 2, there is an airbox drain with a plug in it on the right side of the bike, you may want to pull the plug and drain any extra fuel that got into the airbox which would make it rich, then put the plug back in. Maybe you should take some pics of these hoses your talking about, plugging one that should be open(overflow drain) or opening one that should be plugged(sync port extenders) is kind of important. Important enough that you can do engine damage so take some pics of these hoses you're talking about so we know what you're talking about.
What I did for the extenders is get a 1/4 inch diameter tubing, bought some brass couplers then used the original rubber vaccum cap on the end so I can take it off to sync then put it back on to seal.
Like this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/38-barbed-brass-hose-coupler-68214.html
One end of the hose is the 1/4 inch tubing slipping over the sync port and the other open end I just use the vaccum cap from the carb.
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Ya they were the over flow, my problem was I put it back together to fast!!!!!!! I started it up ran fine went for a ride got about a mile then died. So I started thinking well that caint be to much fuel. Pushed it back home starting looking ya putting the tank back on the hose got kinked against the throttle cables. :banghead: Rerouted the hose runs good no issues. I just got to slow down when im in a pinch for time!!!! And ya I drained the air box with the hose/plug. Thanks again Rider!!!