Bandit Alley
MODEL SPECIFIC => SUZUKI BANDIT 600 thru 1200 - AIR/OIL COOLED TECHNICAL => Topic started by: rider123 on November 01, 2005, 08:23:20 PM
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Here are some instructions(from maximum suzuki) to test the TPS on Bandit 1200's. It gives you more throttle response and better gas milage. Allegedally they are usually set wrong from the factory so I'm going to check mine tomorrow. HEre are the instructions and I've made a bad ascii diagram to help you guys out, sorry no pics.
Pre Adjustment:
Measure Ohm 1, throttle closed, range should be between 3.5K - 6.5K if sensor is OK. Note your measurement on paper
Measure Ohm 2, throttle fully open, range should be between 2.66K - 4.94K if sensor is OK.
Adjustment:
Take the measurement from Ohm 1 on the paper. Mine was 4700 Ohms.
Now take 76% of this number which for me is 3720 Ohms.
Set your throttle to wide open position. I used a bungy cord wrapped around the
throttle to hold it wide open and take the measurement if you have no helper.
Now take the measurement of Ohm 2. Mine was off, so with the throttle fully
open, I adjusted the TPS to 3720. It's very sensitive to movement so small movements are required. Snug the screws.
Re check and verify:
Set the throttle to closed, take measurement of Ohm 1 again. Mine stayed
at 4700 Ohms. (If yours moved, write down this number. This new number will be used as Ohm 1 of which you will take 76%.)Set throttle fully open and measure Ohm 2. Mine stayed at 3720 so I was done, tighten the screws.
You may have to go back to the adjustment procedure to fine tune if you find that Ohm 1 changed from the initial setting. In my case IF the 4700 changed as part of the adjustment procedure, i'd have to measure Ohm 1, take 76% of this, and go through the adjustment procedure again.
Remember: Ohm 1 is ALWAYS measured with throttle closed
Ohm 2 is ALWAYS measured with throttle fully open.
Here is my bad ascii diagram:
_ _ ___
| - - - |
----------- <- this edge is on the outside of the bike
1 2 3
\.... /
Ohm1 -------------------------- 3.5K to 6.5K on bandit 1200(Measure with throttle closed)
_ _ ___
| - - - |
----------- <- this edge is on the outside of the bike
1 2 3
....I /
..Ohm2 ------------------------- %76 of R1 which is 2.66 to 4.94k(Measure with throttle open)
I hope this clears it up I'll confirm this all tomorrow on my bike but this is from the Haynes manual and confirmed by the other posters.
Sorry for bad ascii.
But did it help???
Here is the answer, his next post
I'm psyched! Mileage went from low 40's to high 40's from nothing more than the TPS adjustment. Previous to this, no matter how kindly I rode the bike it never did better than low 40's to a max of 44. With 175 miles of highway, backroads with John J. Saturday in Western MA. + another 25 miles of slow back roads + a hard blast down a 1/2 mile stretch, I got 47. So there is no doubt that the TPS position
affects the timing at low throttle openings.
Another guy had a stage 2 kit and his response had a huge lag time. He set up his TPS and it was wheelie city!! WHile it doesn't add any more power it does help with driveability and milage.
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The TPS setting provides feedback to the ignition module as to throttle opening. The neutral switch tells the ignition module what gear you're in and selects the "optimum" advance curve.
The TPS receives +5 volts and ground from the ignition module and it's applied across a 5K ohm potentiometer. The voltge at the arm of the potentiometer varies the voltage being fed back to the ignition module to "tell" it where the throttle is at any given moment. This sets the point on the selected advance curve where you're operating, and hopefully represents optimum timing for the gear you're in and the position of the throttle you've applied.
The neutral switch has four wires coming from it and the switch supplies a ground to two places, the neutral lamp when in neutral and then one of three different wires going to the ignition module when a gear is selected.
One wire is grounded in 1st gear, another in 2nd gear and a third in 3rd. gear. None of the three wires are grounded in 4th or 5th gear, effectively selecting (defaulting to) the same advance curve for both of the higher gears.
It makes sense that adjustment of the TPS would affect gas mileage and running smoothness to some degree.
Hope that helps.
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Here's the page from the Suz manual for reference and pics... :bigok:
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4852/27fu.jpg)
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Thanks guys, mine is out from the factory!! You'd think they would set it correctly. Well I'll reset it tomorrow to the proper specs and see if it fixes a teeny weeny bit of stumble at low RPM's. If I'm guessing right the TPS thinks I have more throttle open than I do. I still don't have the manual!!! For example on Mine:
I set the voltmeter wrong so I didn't get a super accurate reading (only good to tenths)
Throttle closed Ohm1 reading - 5.1k
Wide open Ohm2 reading - 4.2k <-------------should be 3.9K
Which way do you turn to increase or decrease it? CLockwise increase? Counter clockwise decrease?
So if I get you correctly ray if you disconnected the TPS it would default to the advance curve of 4th and 5th? I guess it's enough to get you home.
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So I adjusted the TPS as it was out of wack straight from the factory. Wow! What an improvement! The misfire/stumble issue is basically gone or so low I can't even discern it. It's still lean and slightly flat but smooth no skips/drops in power. Throttle response at low rpm has dramatically improved. Today, I got mad at this silly woman on a cell phone trying to learn how to drive or something, total idiot. So I wacked it 1/3 throttle open around 2K and the wheel went up off the deck a couple of inches and zooom!! I was off! It never did that before. Now I'm scared, but in a good way :grin:
Vibrations have seemed to be improved slightly as well, I only say slightly because my bike needs a carb sync badly. I don't think the dealer did squat to my bike. THey probably filled it with oil made sure it wasn't going to fly apart and said "good luck". Arrgggh. Fine I'll just take the servicing elsewhere. You would have thought they would have at least check the TPS which takes a whole 2 minutes to set properly. As far as gas milage goes I don't know yet as I just filled up today and changed to regular gas. It seems smoother and a little snappier at small throttle imputs but I'd need a full tank and an odometer reading and what not to say for sure.
While I can't say there is more power, it is definatly snappier, especially in traffic when you're mostly in the low to mid range crusing and you need a burst of speed to get you past a car that's driving slow and sh!tty. I think this TPS setting would probably make the most difference if you had a stage 1 or 2 with a proper pipe. If you can get some improvments with the EPA's propriatary "Lumpy tune" carbs, imagine with proper jetting and pipes!! Try setting your TPS up even for the supposed gas milage gains you have nothing to lose. I have a crappy Ohm meter good to only one decimal place and I got some improvement. It would be nice to have a super fancy 3 decimal place one to really tune it.
Here are the numbers I got just so you can compare:
Ohm1 5.1k <-------Two outer posts with throttle closed
Ohm2 4.2k <-------Two right hand most post with throttle wide open
Moved the TPS sensor CLOCKWISE to adjust it to 3.9k which is 76% of Ohm1.
I'll post the rest of my findings later have to fix computers now 5:31pm
K back. It's almost more annoying now because all it needs is a half turn or so on the pilot screws and a carb sync and I'm done. I highly recomend you check yours it's fast and easy. Tomorrow it's going up to 17 degrees. I'll see if the bike runs better when the air is a little warmer and it's richer. Damn plugs! I'll get them taken out by the dealer at 1000kms, he'll need to do it to fix it anyway.
Thanks for all your help guys, you rock!
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Here's a good one for you guys...what do you do if the TPS doesn't show anything on the Digital Reader?
I tried using both digital and Analog, neither moved at all.
I took the TPS off, and there still is resistance in the spring inside.
Any ideas?? Is this one screwed??
:taz:
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just checked mine too,no reading until you put the meter to megohms, then you get a reading in the very high range, spoke to my dealer (i have only had the bike a month so its still under warranty)He tried to fob me off at first but once he new i was quoting from the manual he admited it's stuffed, and has booked the bike in to be done. so had i not read it on here ond gone to fiddle, i proberbly wouldn't have known, be interesting to see how she goes afterwards because it was quite nimble before (mind i did move up from an old xs650 twin with all of about 50hp on a good day). they cant do it for a week, would it be beter to disconect it all together ? (tick over was a little lumpy but not too bad,it had a full service with valves and ballance prior to purchase)Any thoughts?
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Garage confirmed tps is goosed,new one order, been told to disconect it in the mean time, it does seem marginaly better this way, i'll let you now how it compares to the proper setup as i have yet to ride it with a working TPS. Had it not been for the forum, i would never have known!
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When I did the math, I found my acceptable but out. Made the change and really couldn't tell you if it made any diff or not. No lessening of decel pop. Gonna have to start using my brakes more and gearing down less to stop, that's all. Old habits die hard.
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Does my 2002 B12 have a TPS?
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Outside right side carb. You can probably see it better than us.
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You can see the TPS unit in the photo of the #4 carb in service manual excerpt in mike's post above.
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It's so easy to see you're probably looking right at it but thinking it has to be more complex...I'm going to do this right now, since the bike hasn't run yet I guess I won't be able to do a comparison, but it doesn't hurt to get it right
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Garage fitted new tps yesterday, the bike feels completly different,much smoother at medium throttle settings and far more responsive from the lights,No huge power boost, just an all round more pleasent drive.My TPS was not working from day one (second hand bike) and i rode it disconected on the advice of the garage until the new one was fitted, my findings are that disconecting it acheives nothing other than poor fuel consumption and a flat spot (Bike is standard other that a scorpion can).
Salty
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Wow I never saw a manual with directions like that. Whatever I downloaded is only a parts manual or something. Is that description what I've been told is Jinglish?
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does my bike have a TPS??
its a 2000 Bandit 1200S. I checked the entire bike, and didn't see one. It has a stage 3 with pods, I bought it used, and Im wondering if maybe he took it off years ago, and I didn't know.
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I think you should have one, heres a photo of where it is.
Mine is unplugged...
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/208/460147568_680f18e83c_m.jpg)
the circled area is roughly what is shown in one of the earlier pics in this thread.
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TPS first appeared on 2001 model B12's, so a 2000 doesn't have it.
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Sorry Red01 but mines uk spec 2000, Old shape G1 1200 and it most definatley has one, so says the suzuki manual, all 1200 bandits have one,the 600 got them from 2001 on.
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Well, not ALL 1200 Bandits have one. The old shape G1 didn't get TPS in the US. I didn't know the UK got it before that. The US models got TPS with the slew of other changes that came with the 2G model in 2001.
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i thought i'd seen an older bandit with one myself...but well maybe the bottom line is...MAYBE you have one, maybe you don't there's a great scientific answer that will make everyone happy I'm sure
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I was so psyched when I found this thread. I copied all the info down, read every TPS thread, to make sure I got a clear answer. Then drove from my house to radioshack. Picked up a multimeter, and arrived at my bike(30 mins away, at work) only to find I forgot to buy a battery for the meter, DOH, and I didn't have a TPS.
honestly looking through all the picks, I would be able to see it, and I found where it should be, but its not there, also doesn't really look like there's a bracket / place to put it either on one of the sides. It has a spot on the carb where it should be mounted I believe, but not near the filter... hard to explain, I gotta get another camera (damn ex...)
Anyhow since I've had this bike, I have always hated the throttle. I simply cannot do a slow takeoff. there is no smooth slow takeoff on the throttle, its either really really slow, or too fast. Slow turns are a problem on my bike, because the throttle either wants to be jumpy, like not enough gas, or way too much, there's no slow transition.
I've been trying over n over to fix it with idle adjustment and pilot screws, and throttle cable, I thought TPS was maybe the solution... I'm not sure what to try at this point.
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I was so psyched when I found this thread. I copied all the info down, read every TPS thread, to make sure I got a clear answer. Then drove from my house to radioshack. Picked up a multimeter, and arrived at my bike(30 mins away, at work) only to find I forgot to buy a battery for the meter, DOH, and I didn't have a TPS.
honestly looking through all the picks, I would be able to see it, and I found where it should be, but its not there, also doesn't really look like there's a bracket / place to put it either on one of the sides. It has a spot on the carb where it should be mounted I believe, but not near the filter... hard to explain, I gotta get another camera (damn ex...)
Anyhow since I've had this bike, I have always hated the throttle. I simply cannot do a slow takeoff. there is no smooth slow takeoff on the throttle, its either really really slow, or too fast. Slow turns are a problem on my bike, because the throttle either wants to be jumpy, like not enough gas, or way too much, there's no slow transition.
I've been trying over n over to fix it with idle adjustment and pilot screws, and throttle cable, I thought TPS was maybe the solution... I'm not sure what to try at this point.
The 01 was the first year 4 it as far as i know! It isn't your problem of jerky throttle nor would it fix your problem! Sounds to me you have the slide needles raised too much from an airbox mod attempt with stock needles. Easy to check and reversible. Or the Po mans timing advance was done and botched!! :stfu:
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Ohh I guess I should of mentioned. I have the timing advancer from holeshot. Slip on yoshi, K&N Pods, with stage 3 dynajet ( those came w/ the bike, I just added the advancer.
Im thinking of going stage 2 holeshot instead, that might resolve the issue, I hope.
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Ohh I guess I should of mentioned. I have the timing advancer from holeshot. Slip on yoshi, K&N Pods, with stage 3 dynajet ( those came w/ the bike, I just added the advancer.
Im thinking of going stage 2 holeshot instead, that might resolve the issue, I hope.
Good idea! 3 is not going to be a very drivable setting for the normal street use, more of a drive it like U stole it fuel setting. Not to mention the fuelish 20 to 30 MPG. The Bandit running great, smooth, and with more goooo! than most need should be getting 45 to the gallon avg. That too me means its at optimal tune with the rite mixture. My 1299 Bandit gets 45 to 49 mpg but i got a ECM doing the adjustin. :motorsmile:
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Hey guys, I get the 3.9 when the throttle is close, but I only get a reading of 1 with the throttle full open. I moved the TPS from one end to the other, but I get the same result. What the heck is going on?
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Bad TPS?
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Bad TPS?
That is what I am trying to figure out.
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I can't think of any outside force/item that would cause it.
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Got Multimeter?
Here's a great deal...
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?pid=03482146000&sid=I0084400010000100383&AFFL=Y
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What if the reading from the two outer post read 8000ohms no matter which way you turned it. Does that mean its bad. The second reading was 2.66.
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I got a digital multimeter and I get a correct initial reading.
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Used a Fluke 87 DMM yesterday, turn the meter of and on, while maintaining contact with the pins...in order to get an ohm reading. Using a different Fluke last night (to confirm the TPS settings did not change since riding home from work), I did not have to "reboot" it to get the readings - go figure.
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What if the reading from the two outer post read 8000ohms no matter which way you turned it. Does that mean its bad. The second reading was 2.66.
If it fails the first step of the service manual, then I'd say yes, it's bad.
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4852/27fu.jpg)
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Soooo, what if it passes the first step, but fails the second?
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If it won't adjust to spec... bad.
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I guess I have to look into a replacement. :annoy:
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:clap:
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:clap:
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Anybody have an idea of what a TPS costs? Apparently I need to go buy a new one. Good reading on first reading, odd reading on the second.
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:clap:
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Anybody have an idea of what a TPS costs? Apparently I need to go buy a new one. Good reading on first reading, odd reading on the second.
From the Suzuki parts fiche at Ron Ayers: (http://www.ronayers.com/fiche/300_0315/carburetor_fitting/carburetor_fitting.cfm?man=su&groupid=4750&parent=4740)
Part Number: 13550-13D60
Description: THROTTLE VALVE
Price: $57.05
You local dealer will likely be higher.
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Not sure why the engine being hot would make a difference. it is a position sensor, eh? I am going to call some stealers tomorrow to see price differences. thanks.
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:clap:
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I may have to try it after a good ride to see if there is a difference between a hot motor and cold motor.
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Has anyone here tried using jumper leads off the terminals on the TPS and clipping them to the meter leads? Some meters have probes that are actually small alligator clamps. Might make adjustments and readings a bit easier to achieve. I'm thinking to make a good adjustment you need to have the meter reading as you adjust the TPS, that way when you tighten the screws if R changes you can see it right away. I don't think small, thin wires and small alligator clips would add a lot of extra resistance.
Thoughts?
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Just did this today.
Mine base (Ohm 1) was almost exactly half way in the spec range at 4.97 kΏ but was 3.98 kΏ at WOT (Ohm 2). Target was 3.72 kΏ the surprising thing was how far I had to move the sensor to get a relatively small change. The adjustment ended up being about 1/4 of that available.
For giggle factor I also was measuring the (Ohm 2) closed throttle to open throttle and it was interesting to watch it change. Out of interest my closed throttle setting was only 0.35 kΏ and when the wide open was correct it became 0.060 kΏ. Percentage wise this is pretty big compared to the wide open percentage change to reach the required spec.
It will be really interesting to see if it helps an off iddle 1/8 throttle stumble I have had till 2500 Rpm since fitting a full Akra and HS stage 2 kit. We have been blaming it on the cut throttle slide springs but maybe it was this all along. :headscratch:
Wx here is crap and not quite able to ride yet after surgery will have a little ride around the block next week hopefully and see if this fixed it, I won't put my new UNCUT springs in till after just to see if this was the cause the whole time.
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I have two dyno runs that show the spring length affect at WOT if you would like to see them. They bring the slide up and transition to the mains earlier in the rpm. Don't have any hard data at lower throttle inputs though. Runs were on my bike about a month apart ; ivan's kit to a holeshot stage 2 no other changes. The 5* advancer fixed my low stumble, don't know why, seems unrelated, but it did.
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I bought a new TPS and I am still getting the same results as before. I get a good reading on the first one. I do the WOT and then chk it and still get a low reading no matter what I do.
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Make sure you are checking the correct pins, it should be easy to make the open throttle reading vary wildly with just small moves.
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turns out this thread was right on the money, I was off my .33 took a huge movement to set that right. Thanks guys
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So does it matter if engine is hot or not?
Also what is the tolerance? Can you adjust it at exactly 76% or is there a more or less number? I did not adjust mine but only checked it and the difference is 81%if I remember my numbers correctly. Should I leave it like that or go ahead and do a minor adjustment?
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Basically you are checking two pin with one lead and 1 pin with the other. Either I figure out what is going wrong, or just screw it. I average 36 mpg regardless of where I put it. I would like to set it up properly, but I can't seem to gain ground on the matter.
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I believe I am checking the readings correctly.
If so they read, Ohm1 =4.98 and Ohm2 = 4.12
obviously there isn't a 76% difference between 1 and 2 but both still fall within spec.
I feel a bit disappointed with my gas mileage (33mpg avg) no matter riding style. Should I try to adjust it so there is a 76% difference?
If so, how? I see the two large screws but thats all I loosen both screws and then what? Move the entire sensor unit up or down?
Thanks
Ben Leslie
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I found this quote on another site.
It may help clear up what prongs to measure between for each reading.
However it doesn't help me figure out how to make the adjustments. HELP ME Please
"NOTE: Notice that ohm2 goes between the middle prong and the top prong and that ohm 1 goes between the outside two prongs."
http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/tps.htm
Hope that helps.
Ben
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I even bought a new tps and still had the same problem and still get around 36 mpg. I gave up on trying to do it.
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I found this quote on another site.
It may help clear up what prongs to measure between for each reading.
However it doesn't help me figure out how to make the adjustments. HELP ME Please
"NOTE: Notice that ohm2 goes between the middle prong and the top prong and that ohm 1 goes between the outside two prongs."
http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/tps.htm
You adjust it by loosening the two screws on the TPS sensor and rotating it to get it to the desired adjustment.
(http://www.portablepct.com/fastlarry/tps.jpg)
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For what it's worth, I had recently adjusted my TPS and was curious as to the effect on mileage. I can still get MPG in the low 30's if I am riding hard - yesterday I took a 200 mile trip from Atlanta, south to Jonesboro and west a bit- combo of back roads and highway - was real easy on the throttle and rarely broke the speed limit (much)...was just taking an easy cruise -bike got better than 43 MPG, for what's it's worth. Bike has a stage II kit and is nekkid.
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I get about 53 miles per Imperial gallon solo with all my camping gear on, which translates into ~42.5 miles per US gallon. This is with "moderate" speeds and not a lot of WOT or passing situations. I'm tickled to death with this on a heavy big-bore bike like the Bandit.
My '82 GS750E, OTOH, in the same conditions and roads would return ~62 miles per Imperial gallon or ~50 miles per US gallon. Smaller engine in a lighter bike uses less fuel, I assume......although you'd think it would be working harder and using more fuel. Apparently the GS was in a more efficient part of the rev range under the same riding conditions/speeds.
I really need to take the Bandit on a long steady speed run in the 5K-6K RPM range on a nice hot day to see what she'll return for mileage versus what the GS did.
I believe, at speed limit speeds, the Bandit engine is running too slow and is out of its "efficiency" range.
I also know that nice hot thin oil REALLY helps with the fuel economy on these air cooled four stroke Suzi engines.
I also feel that the TSCC design is a big help to fuel economy generally.
All in all, great engines (both of them), no matter how you look at 'em.
Dang, I'm still sorry I sold that GS..... :sad:
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WOW! My old '77 GS 750 (8-valve, not TSCC 16-valve) never got that kind of mileage! It got pretty much the same fuel economy as my B12. I do find I get better economy when I'm out on the twisies, riding spirited, but not too crazy, than I get droning the speed limit on the commute to work (which involves no more than 4-5 blocks of "city" riding and 49 miles of highways & freeway).
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I did the TPS adjustment on my 2001 1200S Bandit and the biggest plus that I have noticed is that it idles much better in the cold with only about a 1/4" of choke knob movement. ( I know, not a choke but a fuel enricher) I will check for a while to see how the fuel economy is.
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OK couple of idiot questions on the TPS adjustment. I'm assuming we adjust with the ignition on, but the bike NOT running yes? Obviously need to disconnect it to get to the pins...we're talking about the resistance on what's attached to the carb right, not from the plug? Next idiot question: the multimeter, I should put the ground (black) on the frame and the red (+) on the pin yes? or Black on the top pin and red on #2 and #3? Sounds like one of those things that takes about two minutes when you've got it figured out.
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Whoa there, big fella..... I think you're on the wrong track. Based on THIS POST (http://forums.banditalley.net/index.php?topic=3447.msg24272#msg24272), which has a pic from the factory manual you....
... Don't turn the ignition on
... Don't touch the multi-meter probe to the frame
... Don't use the plug - use the carb end
Since you're measuring resistance there's NO polarity to worry about.... black and red mean nothing except you'll need to pick one color for the end pin and keep it there for simplicity. The other color is swapped between the other two pins and measurement is taken at throttle closed and fully open.
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Well that clarifies things thanks! I'll look at it tonight.
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#1 closed 6.4
#2 open 4.8
= exactly 76%
No adjustment needed.. Nice to know anyway! Thanks for the info. :clap:
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To date I've installed a Dyno Jet Stage-1 kit, synced the carbs, adjusted the valves, installed new spark plugs and air filter.
After all that she still had a stumble at mid-range that I suspected was ignition and not carbs.
So, I checked my TPS tonight based on instructions found here. :thanks:
Don't think TPS had ever been adjusted, so assume this to be the factory setting:
Ohm-1: 4.85
Ohm-2: 3.88
80% :roll:
Set to:
Ohm-1: 4.85
Ohm-2: 3.69
76% :thumb:
Went for a quick test ride :motorsmile:, much better :grin:
TINK
photosbytink.com
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Ya, that did the trick! :thumb:
I rode the Bandit to work today after adjusting the TPS. :motorsmile:
BIG difference. :bigok: Smoother across the entire rpm range, and no more mid-range hessitation. :banana:
Now, do I buy a Holeshot 5-degree advancer? :shrug:
TINK
photosbytink.com (http://photosbytink.com)
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so has anyone tried different %'s
what happens at 90% vs what happens at 60%
just numbers mine seemed to range from 66 to 85 %
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Hi
Once again my Jap model GS1200SS is different from all your models.
Can some one tell me which color wires come from each of the three terminals in the TPS.
Reason is that my TPS terminals are in a triangle shape not in a line like your so it is hard to know which terminal should be the common and which terminals are the ohm1 and ohm2.
I have yellow and blue and black/white wires....on your models which color wire goes to which TPS terminal.
Thanks
Richard
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Hi Rich,
I got a jap B4VVC with tps and on the jap models the black/white is usually the return so would think the yel and blue will be the two, mine has blk/wh,green and red so im unable to say which way round yours are.
Chris.